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Economy.
If I got this right from reading the other posts

Some things I've picked out about the Economy from reading random threads on here:

The economy is broken and it's known it's broken (Corpies not always being rich and mixers sometimes being CRAZY fucking rich)

Steps have been taken to fix this, like the reduction of ganger sold stuff.

The general status quo of the mixer/corpie relationship is one of divide, both financially and status wise. Or at least that's what is being gone for. That's why they have instituted the newer employee perks and are looking at jobs etc, to attempt to make that divide... Right? (For lack of better words).

Gold is considered sorta a neutral zone in the whole corpie/mixer shit because the shops and businesses there don't care if your flash is corpie or mixer, they just want it. Green and above is considered the well to do areas and mixers aren't generally seen there because it's like having a bum outside a five star restaurant or sleeping on a movie stars curb.

That all being said:

Just sharing my opinion, but I don't think PERKS per say are going to fix the issues on their own, I think that is a step in the right direction but I think that more cold hard cash is the solution on the topside.

I don't think Gangbangers need to pay more than they do now because it's over the weekly cap anyways selling one thing to them. But I do think that there needs to be more at the top to trickle to the bottom.

Now I'm gonna make a LOT of assumptions here, so don't jump at me with your claws out if I'm wrong.

I assume that in a perfect world, players on the top would be making more money than god and expected to outsource that money on a regular basis to lower level corp employees and/or mixers, but discretely, not like having a mixer show up at their house while they are in the pool swimming.

I assumed based on my limited experience with the pay system here which I'll make a side comment/suggestion about here, (Why don't you make it a set payday, like Friday or something, you already do that with the coded econ, it would be more realistic because nowhere in any job in the world does someone have to wake up at 2am to go collect their pay because that's when they were hired.)

But I digress, so with the pay system here, which again, limited experience, it seems like it's turning a corp/job not so much INTO a job, but a timed influx of cash. What I mean is it doesn't seem to matter if I stay in my job for 50% of my time played, or 2% of my time played, because it's assumed that I'm working while I'm off. Which I totally agree with by the way, but presents a problem in awarding those who "play the role" versus those who just have the bit and play on a terminal every once in a while.

Now I do see there are jobs on the Newsfeed that pay ridiculous amounts of flash a week, like 200 fucking K, and I will make the assumption that they take quite some time to work your way into, and are "goal" jobs in a way to enable that trickle down economics and ultimately RP available.

Problem though in my eyes is this, and again, don't go all ape shit please, as I'm not saying I wanna be CEO in a week... But the problem in my eyes is that those "desired, for lack of better way to put it, END GAME Jobs" are sometimes at the end of a months or years long journey from listening to folks talk.

But what differentiates employee A from B, if they are hired the exact same time, it doesn't seem like there are bonuses or anything to entice them to work "harder" and it doesn't seem like there is anything but a "Do your job for X days and we'll review you to become the next rung". And that's not how any current job works anymore (real world). In the real world it's the performers, the exceptional people that move up.

So ultimately with the way the jobs are structured, and I understand this is all fluid and could change on a dime with some code and inkling of a staff member, but with the way the jobs are coded now I think there needs to be more opportunity for income above and beyond HOPING for trickle down economics, because the players who are in that position of being ULTRA rich are limited and the people they hire are limited and I wouldn't expect someone who makes that 200k a week salary to waste 90% of it on others as that's not realistic.

I understand you guys feel that coded money making systems are a detriment to RP, but when you can run around Green, Gold and Red and find ONE person in a public place out of the fifty logged in, that's a bit rough to rely on the trickle.

As to HOW and what job to do, I haven't a clue, and I was hoping one of you might have a suggestion. But it just feels really broken right now.

Oh and addendum to the above:

I don't want you to think I'm focusing on code simply to focus on code either. I'm not, but the thing that changes a MOO/Mud from a tabletop game is we have the benefit of code to help with some of the lifting.

I mean otherwise why aren't we all just rolling dice for everything and gathered in a chat room?

I mentioned before to you multiple times that payroll jobs are simply a means to an immediate end, covering necessities and if you're lucky and work hard, a bit extra. If you want to make more, you have to hustle. No one, playerwise, is consistently making 200k a week for any regular period of time. Even then it takes a huge investment in RP.

That being said https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj23_nDFSfE

Well fuck, I totally read the Inquisitor post wrong on the newsfeed and added a zero.

But it just feels really broken right now.

You have one data point: your own incredibly limited and entirely myopic experience. From this you've extrapolated an entire line of reasoning and projected it onto the rest of the economy, and in doing so, devalued everyone who has worked hard to ensure that the balance is maintained, and exposed your own bias and unwillingness to explore and learn before making wild assumptions and declaring things broken when they're not.

Your assumption relies on the idea that A) People don't make money and B) it doesn't trickle down.

None of this is even remotely true, and there's a ton of mechanics in place to ensure that's exactly what happens. This isn't the real world, the game can (and does) imposed artificial constraints to ensure that this is exactly what's happening. Nothing about what you said is relevant here. The game is balanced for long term investment, and that's not about to change. Trickle down economics are built into the economy in ways they cannot be built into the real world, and the only thing that remains is to say, "Go experience it for yourself before you declare it broken and in need of repair".

MegaCop, you earned my smile.

Not trying to turn this into a shitshow you're trying to provoke, but I have experienced it, I logged on LONG hours on both of my characters here, ran across the whole playable city seeking out Where the party is and at the behest of players or potentially admin via the sic.

I have used every tool available to me (not many but the few I have uncovered) and some tools that it seems like people hardly use (Grid, Forums etc) and I won't say I haven't made money, I have. But I still see issues, you dismissing it with what essentially comes down to, "You didn't try enough" is bullshit man, Aside from the past day due to boredom, I haven't sat in my cube hardly ever, I'm always out talking to people, gridmailing people, calling people randomly hoping to shake shit loose.

Not quite sure what you think I'm NOT doing.

Not trying to turn this into a shitshow you're trying to provoke, but I have experienced it

No, you haven't. You've barely broken the surface tension. You have no idea how deep the waters your in swimming are, yet you're saying there's not enough water. You hit a rock, and you've decided the rock is the bottom. But it's not. It's just one obstacle that you have to work around.

I have used every tool available to me

No you have not, you've only used the ones you've discovered so far, which are incredibly limited. There's so many more tools available to you that you have not discovered.

But I still see issues ... "You didn't try enough" is bullshit man

No, you see your struggle. Everyone has their own, and everyone does one of three things: float, sink, or rise above. Your argument predicates on the assumption that you cannot rise above, and that more effort won't yield better results. That's just soooo much bullshit.

Not quite sure what you think I'm NOT doing.

The things that work, for one. For another, the things that have been suggested to you over and over. Namely RP. I think you're NOT looking for the money where the money is.

If there is a moving thing in my room, be it an NPC or a player, I interact with it, sometimes I'm ignored and they roll out which is fine, but I interact with EVERYONE I run across.

What more RP you want? And if you say RP doesn't equate to money, trust me, I try to spin EVERYTHING into money.

If there is a moving thing in my room, be it an NPC or a player, I interact with it, sometimes I'm ignored and they roll out which is fine, but I interact with EVERYONE I run across.

I'm guessing that in the real world, interacting with people in the same way results in them giving you money, and your frustrated by the fact that this doesn't happen the same way in the game?

What more RP you want?

Me personally? Nothing. I'm good. You? Sounds like you want the RP that results in cash flow, not the RP you've been doing.

And if you say RP doesn't equate to money, trust me, I try to spin EVERYTHING into money.

Ah! I think we may have encountered the real problem. When I go to RP with someone, and I want to make money, I know exactly how to do that. Before I go anywhere near the person, before I say the first word to them, I know exactly how I want this conversation to go, and exactly how much money I'm going to walk away from it with.

But it sounds like you're lacking the skills to convince people to part with their cash. This isn't a shortcoming of the game itself. The problem you're describing how has absolutely ZERO to do with coded jobs, and everything to do with your social skills and how effectively you interact with other people.

MegaCop couldn't have said it better, honestly. All of his points are on -THE- point.

So the problem is, you're saying I don't know how to talk to people?

Well ok, lets assume that I'm not kissing enough ass or whatever it you're recommending I do to loosen the purse strings.

I have never played a lackey type character before in my life and never will.

I guess I'm doomed to fail.

Many Corpie jobs on the Gold level directly provide their holders with ways to make player-to-player money on the side, way in excess of the weekly salary.

And nobody needs to wake up and go collect from the salary machine at a time which is inconvenient to them. It will still be there unless "convenient" means "in three months".

So the problem is, you're saying I don't know how to talk to people?

Yes.

Well ok, lets assume that I'm not kissing enough ass or whatever it you're recommending I do to loosen the purse strings.

Thank you for making my point for me about not knowing how to talk to people. Well done.

I have never played a lackey type character before in my life and never will.

Ego much?

I guess I'm doomed to fail.

Most people are. To quote Fight Club: "You are not special. You're not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else. We're all part of the same compost heap. We're all singing, all dancing crap of the world."

And now you've demonstrated the truth of that statement. And until you decide to become unique and special, that's never going to change. You are doomed to fail like everyone else who has failed before you, and everyone who will come after, and not try hard enough to be better than everyone else around them.

I have never played a lackey type character before in my life and never will.

You've never learned from a master? You've never been taught a skill from a craftsman in the trade? You've never observed someone who knew what they were doing and emulated them? You've never been taught by a teacher? Or read an instruction manual?

Come on... stop with the trolling.

*licks finger and applies to arm* SSsszzz

Now, I don't particularly hold the negative view of humanity that Megacop does, nor will I go so far as to judge you on your likability as I don't think I am in any position to. What I will say is that I think the attitude you are looking at the game with isn't what it's meant to be used for. You are seeing rp as an means to an end, the end being money. However Sindome is a game about social dynamics and interaction, it's ABOUT what you are seeing as a means. Sure there is some fighting, and it's always fun to be able to buy nice things, but the game is not set up for those to be your end goals, it is set up for those to be tools to influence the social dynamic. If that doesn't interest you then this probably isn't the game for you. You can't grind, even the highest paying jobs don't really pay that much, it'll take even an executive a few weeks of paychecks to buy a katana for example. It's not that you aren't making money and missing something pariah it's that everyone else is making roughly the same but they don't -care- because thats not why they play this game, they play it to explore identity and social interaction and the way those clash with the themes of a dystopian cyberpunk setting.

I truly do hope you are able to find a way to click more with the community and enjoy the game for what it is, because it's not going to change into what you seem to want it to be.

Cheers

Strummer, Not-Boba-Fett

Pariah, you've been on the game for a week. That does not constitute long hours, nor I think, make you qualified to judge the entire economy.

What you read on the BGBB is people's opinions on topics. The subjective truth. The objective truth is known only by admin.

I apologize for not addressing much of the actual content of this post, but there doesn't seem to be anything here that hasn't been addressed in numerous other posts. This topic would have been better as an addition to one of our other posts.

See:

http://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/ganger-item-payment-reduction-207/

http://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/ganger-item-payment-reduction-207/

Pariah, I do not know your background OOCly. What I do know is that Sindome is a massive game, run by volunteers, with a supportive community, some of which have been around for months, some years, some decades. There is a level of understanding and experience that comes with playing the game and seeing things from multiple angles. I would implore you to take a step back, temper your feedback, and spend more time experiencing the game and gaining a better understanding of it.

The fact that you have arrived, played a week, and want a bunch of things to change because you don't like them, comes off as selfish and self serving. Maybe that is not your intention, but I don't know you. I don't know your intentions. I haven't spent any time RPing with you, and neither has, to much extent, anyone else here.

If it's not become clear as of yet, a lot of your posts are inciting negative feedback. That, I expect, is because you have been generally negative with everything you've posted. That doesn't make people more happy or more inclined to listen to your feedback. We appreciate contribution to the community, and at many times, that indeed involves providing construction feedback. However, that feedback needs to come from experience and understanding of the game, not knee jerk reactions to things that you've experience only once or twice, or that are fused with you lack of finding the RP you are looking for or the money your character wants to have.

It seems like there is a decent amount of bleed from your character tainting what you are posting on the BGBB-- that is my take on it, anyway.

To summarize:

Please be constructive in your feedback.

Please offer feedback from a place of understanding, not a knee jerk reaction.

Please take the time to play and learn the game before asking us to change it.

Please find already existing BGBB posts to post under whenever possible.

Please post in the correct area, 'anything really' is not the best place for this topic.

Please start small, build trust with the members of the community, before jumping into the deep end with complaints, critiques, etc.

Thanks!

-- S

To remedy this problem, I suggest all characters be given free Xo5 gear upon entering the Dome.

And if you say RP doesn't equate to money, trust me, I try to spin EVERYTHING into money

You'll find in Sindome, veteran players can recognize an agenda from a mile away. And sometimes those sorts of attitudes get generally avoided by the playerbase. If you think you're doing what everyone else is doing and it's not working, you might want to look at yourself rather than make sweeping gestures about the system as a whole.

Not trying to incite riots with the playerbase, I just am looking at prices in game.

Then doing simple math.

I get paid 4.

Rent costs 3.

The thing I want to buy costs 400.

That's going to take me X months to a year to get. And it's damn discouraging.

If it's working as intended, then I guess I better just buckle in for many a day roleplaying a bit till the three ue and logging off till I eventually hit day 400.

it'll take even an executive a few weeks of paychecks to buy a katana for example

But even that's an entirely myopic view of what success looks like in the game.

So you typed 'work' enough times, slept in a cube, bought nothing, and saved up for your katana. The day arrives. You go get it, and bring it down. Now what? You can't show it off in public, because the gangers will jump you for it. You can't use it to go kill the big bad who's been menacing you, because you don't have the skills/stats.

And... here's where the real realization comes in: Assuming you and the big bad are playing the same hate game, you will NEVER have the skills/stats to best them. Ever. You will never ever get ahead that way. He will always have the UE advantage on you.

So you may as well give up on that game, and play a different one. The big bad has friends, but he has enemies too. So the best place to spend your money might not be on your own katana, it might be hiring someone else's... and -this- is the game. Not grinding a job, not saving money, not buying stuff, but RPing.

Quit worrying about money. Go RP. You'll get a lot further.

This is a counter productive attitude which leads me to believe you do not belong in this game.

I'll repeat myself yet again, concerning your last post.

I mentioned before to you multiple times that payroll jobs are simply a means to an immediate end, covering necessities and if you're lucky and work hard, a bit extra. If you want to make more, you have to hustle.

I'll repeat myself yet again, concerning your last post.

I mentioned before to you multiple times that payroll jobs are simply a means to an immediate end, covering necessities and if you're lucky and work hard, a bit extra. If you want to make more, you have to hustle.

The previous post was meant for Pariah.

This is a cyberpunk game, man. It's about the haves versus the have-nots. Your character is a have-not. If you want a different game experience, find a different game. Continuing to complain about lacking IC things, is going to result in you being removed from the community. Plain and simple.

-- S

You really understood nothing anybody in this entire post has posted have you? Experiment with roleplaying, find people and find ways to make them give you money. Either for a job, a loan, who cares, but find a way to get money from the PCs. Even then, sometimes finding ways to @note interactions with NPCs and then returning to them every so often to see if a GM will puppet them to help advance or cut off your advances. DO NOT USE WEEKLY PAYMENTS AS A WAY TO LIVE IN THIS GAME. The best, funnest, and most rewarding experiences with cash in general is through other characters, PC or NPC, and not just a weekly stipend of cash.

you have to hustle.

I realized the problem in saying this.

It's like me saying to you, "You have to gazorpazorp." I'm an expert gazorpazorper. I grew up in a lower middle class family, and I've had to gazorpazorp all my life to get ahead. I know exactly how to gazorpazorp.

But you've never had to. And I keep on saying to you, "Well, go talk to people!" and you're like "I do talk to people!" and I go, "But you're not gazorpazorping" and you're like WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK DO YOU MEAN?

And I keep on saying, "But I have done what you said" and you keep going, "No you haven't. You need to gazorpazorp." and everyone's like, Yeah! Just gazorpazorp and I'm I'm going I've tried gazorpazorping, but it's NOT WORKING!!!!

The problem here is I still have no idea what it means to gazorpazorp. I'm following the instructions as best I understand them, but because I've never actually seen a real gazorpazorp in action I'm emulating what I think are the right steps, but I'm still getting no results.

So... realizing this, I don't think it's useful to say to someone who has no idea what it means to actually hustle, 'you just have to hustle'. They clearly don't understand what's required, and all their attempts at following instructions have not resulted in success. It's easy to blame the person for not hustling, but what of the instructor who didn't provide instructions they can understand?

So, on behalf of Pariah, what does it mean to actually hustle? Can someone give a more clear definition of what's being said that will highlight the contrast between what's expected and what's been tried so far?

Okay let me try and explain this better because you guys are jumping immediately to the negative.

I understand jobs are just to pay rent and have a very small bit extra. I understand the real money is supposed to come form PC to PC interaction. I hear you, that just hasn't been my experience, but as the S guy said before he started threatening to ban me for asking questions. I have only been here a week.

Okay, so the central thing is RP, that's been said five hundred times. But to tell someone simply to go RP is like telling someone to go for a walk. If they have a specific destination, but don't know where they are, how are they supposed to even start walking in the right direction?

I could sit here and RP with you lot in say the KMB every day, for months or years, and it will be entertaining seeing your quirks and listening to the bullshit that goes on, that has never been a complaint by me at all, I find most of you pretty damn interesting by the way.

The documentation is either purposefully sparse or just sparse. You can tell me to draw and I can draw a stick figure, or I could draw an apple. Vague posting me about go RP, and then saying, Wait wait, that's not the right RP isn't useful. There is about 8 million different ways I could play a single character, I could play a sycophant, I could play a fighter, I could play a gutterrat etc etc.

I'm willing to keep working at this till I find the way that works, but you guys have to understand that simply spewing out, go RP, isn't useful to anyone. I have characters with YEARS of history in other games and have no problem looking at the long game, but at least there I know I need to a b c d e ... z to get there. Here it's a damn mystery, all I'm given is GO RP over and over and you expect me not to be negative?

Should I tell a bum on the street to go make money everyday I pass him on patrol, think that will work?

Should I tell a bum on the street to go make money everyday I pass him on patrol, think that will work?

Well, fortunately, there's a massive wealth of information available on this. Sindome is, for all intents and purposes, a reality simulator. There's nothing unique to Sindome about how to make money in a society. If it's applicable as a business model in the real world, and it can be effectively modeled in Sindome, then it can work.

The instructions your looking for will not be found here, they will be found in examples all around you. Basic economics. Money can be exchanges for goods and services. Supply and demand. Cost vs expense. Selling on the margin. You won't find those manuals here, because this isn't a training workshop. You're expected to learn these skills elsewhere, and bring them here, or learn them from the people here.

Just like in real life.

Why we say 'Go RP' or 'Find out In game' or 'Find out ICly' has been covered in multiple topics. We do not direct you how to RP your character.

This game is not about the accumulation of wealth, it's about the accumulation of experiences. Money and things have nothing to do with the enjoyment of this game. They are a by product of specific types of RP.

The fact that each character gets only 3UE a day and that under the best of circumstances will take years to reach the UE cap for their growth as a character should be an identifier that this is a long haul game.

It's not something you master in a day or a week or a month or a year. I've been playing this game for 13 years, have written large parts of the code base, and have been the driving force behind innumerable plots and NPCs and player character and I still do not have the game mastered. I'm very good at it, in certain ways, that cannot be argued, but I'm also very bad at it in others.

It's a constant growth experience. That growth happens ICly through gaining knowledge of the world. Unraveling the mystery of how to succeed in the path you've chosen.

You aren't going to find much more help than the video tutorials and help files. It's like that on purpose. We give you the tools to play the game, and you figure out the way of playing it that works best for you.

We aren't going to change how much money you make just because it's hard or because your character has to live on the poverty line or below it. That is, in effect, the point of the game. The struggle. Giving you too much information or telling you how to do specific RP runs counter to the spirit of the game.

Instead of spending your time writing BGBB posts, your best bet for finding success in the game is going to a bar or place where characters gather, and meeting them, listening to them as they RP, getting a feel for the IC lay of the land, looking for opportunities to accomplish your characters goals or perhaps, deciding on new goals based on the new IC information you have.

Sponge it up man, this is the best part of the game! Everything is new and interesting and challenging and wonderful. I envy you, that.

I think your subtitle says it all. "If I got this right from reading other threads."

I'm not here to jump on you for your assumptions. I'm just here to pour my n=1 experience in.

I'm not what I'd call a veteran player. My character is almost two years old. Yes, years. In that span of time my character has gone from bottom to top and back down again to some mid level of existence. I used to be frustrated that saving for x would me y amount of days, slaving over a hot keyboard. But, I stopped worrying about that. I focused solely on my character and my character's relations, passions, personality. A lot of people play a character with no purpose. Humans have purpose. Humans have goals and dreams and feelings and dislikes and likes, hobbies, passions, failings. Why wouldn't a character? I also see a lot of people stuck in a rut when they play their character statically. Humans are dynamic. If it means I keep the roof over my head and food in my fridge (and the power on) fuck yeah I'm going to deliver that pizza despite my fancy degree in not delivering pizzas. Why wouldn't characters be dynamic too?

As a slightly more experienced player than the average newbie, I admit that it's harder to get involved with my character when someone is new. It's hard to get involved with a lot of the more established characters when someone is new. Simply because, there's already a world going that you need to work into with time. We don't go out of our way to alienate newbies, many of us try to incorporate newer players into something even if it leads nowhere. But, it's like walking into a new city and expecting to deal for the main drug kingpin on day two. It's just not going to happen. I also see a level of discomfort when people are basically begging for attention. Just...be normal, chill, develop that dynamic character. Stop thinking of things you want or need for your character beyond a roof and clothes and develop the character into something people want and need instead through building relationships, doing the shit work, experiencing the world for more than five minutes. If you don't want to put time into the game, no one wants to put time into your character either.