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Indecision 2004

It's always dangerous to bring up politics in an open forum, because it's one thing EVERYONE is gaurenteed to have strong, passionate, and most importantly, wildly differeing opinions on the matter and it always ends up with people voicing said opinions in a matter which, despite reasons proving the contrary, are presented as fact rather than opinions, much to the opposition's frustration.

Regadless, it's still an important issue to discuss, for reasons too numerous to enumerate here.

I've now watched the debates (Thanks Anisa for taping them for us) with baited breath because I was hoping to learn something which would resolve my own indecision.

I've seen Michael Moore's movie, and taken them with the due grain of salt. I've researched the issues presented there, and many other places, and found them to be, in aggragate, a lot of arm-waving; Look at what this hands doing, don't look at what's really up my sleeve.

I've ruled out Bush for more reasons than I care to list.

I've ridden the fence up until now on weather to choose what I see as the lesser of two evils (Kerry) or throwing my vote away on a third-party, but have come to the conclusion that in fact he is the evil of two lessers, not the other way around.

I've educated myself on this whole electoral college debate, and have a very detailed understanding of the dynamics that really decide the direction which they will ultimately take, which can in fact be to go against the voiced will of the people. I see why we have two parties: Because in a winner-takes-all-with-the-majority voting system, people can literally buy their way into a canidates agenda by threatening to run against them. Kerry could buy Nader's support by getting some Nader issues on his agenda, or promising him Labor Secretary. And we know how much that's worth to Kerry: 1% of the vote (Nader's current standing in the polls). And if you think 1% isn't that much, you must not have been paying attention 4 years ago.

The conclusion I've come to is this: Bush supporters really do believe that Bush could do a better job. Kerry supporters really do believe that Kerry could do a better job. But nither of them are making honest arguments.

Bush is still finding new ways to justify his illegal war from which he and his have made billions (Halliburton). The half-truth he insists on is that his intelligence at the time we're saying that they had Weapons of Mass Destruction or at least plans and material to make them. The truth is the evidence did point at a weapons program (every developed country has one), but all of his nuclear experts were saying 'there's no way he could make nuclear weapons with that stuff'. But because it was profitable to do so, Bush ignored that advice, choosing to only hear what he wanted to hear, which is that he had an opertunity to go to war, and make a lot of money in the process. He used the atmosphere of fear, uncertianty, and doubt to galvanize the people against a phantom threat, alienating all of our friends in the UN, making us the laughing stock of the world. Then the reality set in, and his approval ratings plummeted. So to bolster his case, he's literally finding reasons to justify it. I got a little common sense for thoes who think this is a worthwhile endevor: You don't go searching for and inventing reasons to go to war AFTER you've started the war. Meanwhile he's driven America into a 7.2 trillion dollar deficit, we're trapped in a war which realistically has no end and will go on in perpetuality, and he has the nerve to say, "I'm very happy with where we are."

Meanwhile Kerry, who's record is weak to begin with (unless you count his three purple hearts), has based his whole campaign around the concept of 'fixing' the mistakes the Bush administration has made. This, while nobel in theory, results in nothing but a smear-based strategy filled with more half-truths. Durring the debate he made the statement that if Bush we're re-elected, Americans would find themselves being sucked into the millitary though a draft. He did this because the issue hits home with the college students and mothers and fathers of teenagers, and he'll probablly win their vote because of it. But when you actually look just beneath the surface, you find that it's not true; Bush isn't for the draft. Congress isn't for the draft. The Pentagon isn't for the draft. No one wants the draft. Why, you ask? Because as it turns out a voulentarry armed-forces program is much more effect. And everyone knows this. But it didn't stop Kerry from using it as a tool to leverage people's fears against Bush. The real irony is it was the fear of terrorism and insecurity that Bush used to start the war, and it's the same fear of insecurity that Kerry uses to attack Bush with.

And if any of these things come as news to you and you plan on voting, I'de put forth that you're doing yourself and your country a disservice by making an uninformed decision, and that you owe it to yourself, your children, and your grandchildren to not fuck up something so important by casting your vote without knowing all the facts. And anyone too short-sighted to say something stupid like "I don't have kids and don't plan on having any." as a retort needs to get their head out of their ass.

If you actually are aware of these things, and you've made your decision, and you can still sleep at night, then more power to you.

Somehow, I suspect, the majority of the people will fall into the former category. And really thats a shame.

If information is power, then ignorance is paralysis. Make sure your not paralyzed when you vote.

-Kevlar

My dad's side of the family is voting Kerry, while my moms votes Bush. Hmmm.

But yeah, I side with Kerry.

As for their armed forces record, it really isn't important.

"The conclusion I've come to is this: Bush supporters really do believe that Bush could do a better job. Kerry supporters really do believe that Kerry could do a better job. But nither of them are making honest arguments. "

You quote thief you! Jon Stewart demands compensation! ;)

Dude you have hit the nail on the head as to both of them suck pond water, I am still tossing and turning on this one. They both have good points to them, and they should wear hats to cover them. And they have bad things too…. I am probably still be debating this with myself when I walk into the booth to vote, now the funny thing about the vote here in Ohio is that we use punch sheets like they did in Florida, and there have been adds on the TV to make sure we don't have hanging chads like Florida.... Oh well, back to killing something so I don't have to worry about these morons for awhile.

Ratboy

(Edited by Ratboy at 1:51 pm on Oct. 16, 2004)

I agree with Kevlar on this… I heard someones excuse for not voting Kerry the other day.  
"I don't vote for anyone with a face bigger than this" *holds his hands vertically about two feet appart*

I asked him if that was his only reason for not voting Kerry. He said yes.

While it -was- funny, I think anyone who isn't going to take voting seriously or even -try- to have a legit reason for voting.
Should just stay the fuck out of the booths!!

or throwing my vote away on a third-party, but have come to the conclusion that in fact he is the evil of two lessers, not the other way around.

Ok, a nerve was grazed so here's my rant:  I fuckin hate how people only see this as a 2 canidate race!!! (not attacking kev here, just using his quote as a seed for my point)  Nothing makes me more mad than when I hear people say that a vote for Nader is "stealing" a vote from Kerry, fuck Kerry, we need more canidates, and on top of that more canidates that want to talk about their issues and change things for the better not just spout insults at eachother.
 
I am voting for Nader, not only because I like his platform for the most part, but I want to send a message that it's time we start paying more attention to independents.  Yes I know he's not going to win, but I don't see it as throwing away my vote, I see it as voicing my real opinion, not siding with the lesser of two evils, or trying to go with the winning team.  

Don't vote for Kerry for the simple reason that you don't want Bush to be president.  I hate to say it but I'd rather not see people vote if their not going to make an informed decision, and voting for one canidatate simply because you don't like the other isn't an informed decision.  All of this "anyone but bush" crap is ignorant too.  Hell alot of those people would literally rather have a trained monkey in office than Bush.  Sickening.

Ok I kinda lost track on that last part, but yeah, there is more than 2 canidates, there are more than 3 or 4 even.  hell Nader didn't make the ballot in my state, but I plan to write in.   Hell the one good thing about canada is the sheer number of canidates.  I don't know if they auctially all have a chance to win, or if it's just like here, but at least their not looked at as "voter fodder" if you will.

It's not about getting Kerry into office. It's about getting Bush out of office. The damage Kerry could/would do is far outweighed by the rampant destruction being rained on our future by the current president. Do I really want to support the two party system? No - two seperate but dissimilarly identical systems both obsessed with money. Do I think voting for an independant would send a message? No - the media is controlled by the mega-corps and the mega-corps LOVE the two party system because they are certainly easier to control.

See, its all about controlling the consumers. Your illusion of a free and counting vote as a citizen is all you need to be kept placated.

~ Johnny (Citizen 204,450,278)

P.S. - Watch Jon Stewart on Crossfire

Do I think voting for an independant would send a message? No - the media is controlled by the mega-corps and the mega-corps LOVE the two party system because they are certainly easier to control.


And that's why it never will, because everyone is so "afraid"  of either throwing their vote away, or taking votes away from someone that they would marginally like to see win.   Are you telling me that if for some reason Nader got a larger share, say even 5%, that you don't think that would send a message?    Even if it didn't, it would be a step in the right direction IMHO.

Sending a message that is drowned out by the media? Gambling with the short term in hopes that 20 years from now, a 3rd party will emerge? Independant parties like the Green and the Liberitarian parties aren't large enough YET to properly field a presidental candidate. They need to make better in-roads into local and state elections before they try to step up to the presidental plate.

The race for 3rd place in the presidental race is symbolic, nothing more. It's a waste of money that could be applied to elections that will make a difference and will matter.

If your mayor, your senator and your congressmen are all Green, that gives you a much stronger leg to stand on when getting arrested for trying to take part in the debate you justly deserve to get into.

I don't like having to vote for Kerry, but I'll do it because anybody but Bush will be better for the future of this country. I'd like to see that 3rd party have a decent country to run in 20 years from now.

While I can't ignore the media's influence on everything in our life.  and I totally understand and partially sympathize with your point, it's your mindset that is snuffing the independents.  Almost "ignore them until their too big to ignore"   The thing is if we keep doing that they will -never- get the recodgnition they diserve.   And I couldn't live with myself if I voted for Kerry simply because he's "the lesser of two evils"  Two evils is a phraise that shouldn't be associated with our presidental election for god's fuckin sake!!!
But I'm already voting for independants running in local and state elections when I can. I'm just more a realist than a dreamer. :)

As Kang and Kodos would say, "Go ahead and throw away your vote, its a two party system." It is certainly a noble thing you are doing, but I simply can't allow this compassionate conservativism to keep our governmental machine swung so far away from the values I personally hold dear.

Bush is on top, but you know how fast that can change :)
You are all missing one very -VERY- important thing.

What nation holds an election on the day of the dead?

Hm, canada is the only country that comes to mind.


*chuckles*