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Intelluctual Property should't be?

Facinating paper here about intelluctual property and how traditional economic theory dosn't (or rather shouldn't) apply.

It basically makes the case that freely benefitting from someone else's intellectual property rights is often the best way to form a free and creative society. A topic which has very important ramifications not only to Sindome, but to business models and open communities everywhere.

Here's the abstract:
Courts and scholars have increasingly assumed that intellectual property is a form of property, and have applied the economic insights of Harold Demsetz and other property theorists to condemn the use of intellectual property by others as "free riding." In this article, I argue that this represents a fundamental misapplication of the economic theory of property. The economics of property is concerned with internalizing negative externalities - harms that one person's use of land does to another's interest to it, as in the familiar tragedy of the commons. But the externalities in intellectual property are positive, not negative, and property theory offers little or no justification for internalizing positive externalities. Indeed, doing so is at odds with the logic and functioning of the market. From this core insight, I proceed to explain why free riding is desirable in intellectual property cases except in limited circumstances where curbing it is necessary to encourage creativity. I explain why economic theory demonstrates that too much protection is just as bad as not enough protection, and therefore why intellectual property law must search for balance, not free riders. Finally, I consider whether we would be better served by another metaphor than the misused notion of intellectual property as a form of tangible property.

-Kevlar

you just confused the shit out of me.
yup.
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I had to reach a 13 year old audience. I thought for a second we might carry on an intelluctual conversation for once instead of bantering about how a goat ninja is better than a rat ninja.

In layman's terms: Information wants to be free.

Better?

*mumbles something about tools with no purpose*

-Kevlar

Kind of ironic seeing as we seem to be moving towards a society where information is power.

Especially for us, seeing as there have been times when people wouldn't give out the time unless they were being paid…

Kind of ironic seeing as we seem to be moving towards a society where information is power.

Ironic how?

Information has ALWAYS been power. The only thing that's changed in the past few years is the ease of which it's obtained and distributed. It used to be that the average citizen didn't have immideate access to an entire library of knoledge, a panel of experts, and a ocean of opinions at a moments notice. Now people who DON'T have that power are the exception. I think what you ment was we're moving towards a society where information (power) is more readily distributed and obtained.

Power through freedom of information is what this paper talks about. There's an important distinction being made there.

It's true that for many many years businesses operated on the (valid) assumption that intelluctual property is best leveraged by not sharing it. Watching the framework that upheld that assumption and made it mostly true crumble and wither away is a facinating case study of evolution in a macrocosom in my opinion…

-Kevlar

Check out Creative Commons, they're one step ahead of you all.
Not to say that I disagree, because for the most part I don't..    It seems to me that this guy is just trying to say that because there are supposedly no negatives to sharing "intellectual property" that it's ok, as opposed to stealing/sharing/whatever physical property which can have negatives.   Well I think that first of all that these "negatives" are pretty subjective, and that they could possibly exist.  Say that I create something that is my intellectual property and it is used in a way that I don't want it used, then to me that woud be a negative.  

I totally agree that this whole intellectual proprety thing, in  most cases is a farce.  And maybe I should read the whole article before I judge(though I probibaly won't) but his argument seems kinda flimsy.

having dealt with intellectual property in both my employment and artistic practices for the last 6 years, I have come to one conclusion.

I no longer care.

Ideas are things that individuals create and modify based on information and ideas passed down through a long lineage of ideas. We technically do not -own- anything 'intellectually'. Once a concept or construct is placed into the larger collective environment, it ceases to be owned by anyone.

For IBM to say they have the intellectual property rights to the IBM logo is, fankly, silly. Once that symbol is placed into the culture it is no longer owned by one person, but by all who view it. The same holds true for any of the images I make as an artist. Once I release the idea into the collective environment, it ceases to be 'mine'. Yes, it was started by me. Yes I did create it. But it is no longer -MINE-.

Jazz music is a good example of a microcosm which shows a functioning economic exchange of ideas and information that is quite 'free' in nature. Jazz musicians are always ripping each other off. They lift riffs, heads, even entire songs. But each repitition of the song is unique. Johnny Summers does a cover of a Weather Report song from the seventies. Weather Report doesn't file a cease and desist. What do they care? Johnny Summers plays it different. He is NOT them. Yes, that is there song, and Johnny Summers says 'yeah man, they wrote this groovy track so I'm playin it back for you all.' Both sell albums. Both are playing the same 'intellectual property' as it is defined by law. But nobody cares, and both win.

I am all for free interchange of ideas. All for it 100%. Does that mean someone could use one of my images as a poster for a hate campaign against african americans and cubans? Yes.

Do I like that? No.

Am I willing to lock down freedoms to prevent it? No.

We have to police our selves, and we as a culture have to collectively say to the minority 'NO! Bad Neo-Nazi!' As long as we look to legal systems to define our moral codes, we will always be a corruptable and failing society. Morals and ethics need to be ingrained into our collective culture and act as a first method to stopping things like hate crimes and cultural degridation. Laws and a legalist system (what we live in now in North America) has to come -SECOND- in the collective culture to morals.

Anyhow. Bit off topic, but thanks Kev for that post. And do not mind the 13 year old mentalities, they will eventually have to learn to read or face shitty jobs as a mop-jockey.

thanks Kev for that post. And do not mind the 13 year old mentalities, they will eventually have to learn to read or face shitty jobs as a mop-jockey.

Thank you, Iga, for the insightful view.

And thanks everyone else who had something intelligent to add. Better to be thought a fool and remain silent than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Back to the topic: The creative commons inheriantly realizes the value of shared intelluctual property.

This paper aptempts to show how existing models of economics and property law don't necessairly apply.

If anything, this paper should be a tool in anyones toolbox who has a interest in seeing the creative commons succeed on a broader scale. This paper appeals to people like business analyists and other professionals who need tangible models for expressing the concepts that thoes who embrace the creative commons allready inheriantly understand.

-Kevlar

(Edited by Kevlar at 2:33 pm on Sep. 10, 2004)

In the summary you posted, it states 'From this core insight, I proceed to explain why free riding is desirable in intellectual property cases except in limited circumstances where curbing it is necessary to encourage creativity.' I will talk on artistic avenues. If I received zero financial benefit from creating saleable work, then it would become a hobby and my days would be filled with drone work to support myself, and this diminishes the environment for creative work. Open license is a community affair, but has broader reaching impact. If you take away the rights of artists to protect the majority of their work, then you get two possible outcomes (there are dozens of variants). The depth and variety of creative endeavours would soon thin out and the market place could soon become flooded.

If Sindome had no intellectual property rights on the content of the game, how exactly would that make Johnny or any Bit who has put 'artistic' sweat into this game feel? Everything is up for the taking?

I find the idea of open license, carte blanche, terrifying and at the same time very intriguing…

I haven't even begun to think about business case scenarios with anything from cutting code to legal work, or how about science? You tell me whether the most profitable industry in the world, that would be the pharmaceutical industry, is going to give up IP? Not even in our childrens lives will that happen....

If I received zero financial benefit from creating saleable work, then it would become a hobby and my days would be filled with drone work to support myself, and this diminishes the environment for creative work.

Your making a fatal assumption there: That putting something into the public domain is equlivent to making no money off it.

What about the artist who gives away some of his work, but sells it all on an album? He can garner more interest in his work by making some of it freely available, thereby directly increasing sales.

What about the coder who get's paid to work on open source work? The code he writes goes back into the public domain where it can recieve peer review on a scale not possible within a closed model. As a result his code improves, thereby making his business more efficent.

Think this dosn't happen?

What do you think IBM is doing with Linux?

They give away the code, and sell the support. And they're changing the marketplace and giving Microsucks a real run for their money.

It happened at the place I work at.

I'm a commiter on an Apache project. A number of components from this project is integrated very tightly into the architecture at the place I work. Someone else who also works on the project found a bottleneck in my code that I had written for my company, on my company's time, and put into this Apache project. As a result of someone who wasn't even working for us, our whole website got faster, because we make our intelluctual property readily available.

It works. It really really does.

The problem you face is the old business model dosn't work, and new ways of approaching the problem are required.

-Kevlar

Our current economic infrastructure has been built up over centuries of capitalist behaviour. I think open license has evolved from the historical revolutions. We have 3% of the world owning %97 of the wealth (approx. percentages), and they did that through ownership. Why did the MP3 music issue end up going to court? Because no one paid for the music, of course there actually were some people who dl'd music to see if they liked it then went out and bought the CD, but the majority did -not-, and still don't. OL for code is one thing, but as soon as you present something that the Average Joe can take without paying for and without having any ability to contribute, you have a problem.

Engage corporate licensing but keep personal licensing free? Maybe that would work with code, but it won't work with music, literature, or art. Artists have a hard enough time getting anything viewed, let alone turn a profit. Sampling work before purchase, as with the music idea, is intuitive to the market these days, but is not OL.

IP is an asset, I can see the massive benefits to the IT industry already blooming, but in other industries, the markets are tightly woven into legislative frameworks -protecting- the interests of multinational companies and their IP. Deconstructing these markets would, I think, be impossible without serious societal and economic destabilisation.

I'm afraid capitalist markets drive the economies of the world … US, OZ, UK and parts of EU all buy into it. I am not being bluntly pessimistic, I have a lot at stake in IP and the protection thereof -because- of our current business model. I take all your points, and I do see the concept and the eventual gain from them, I just believe the current business model has the thorns buried deep. Perhaps code will lead the way.

Thanks for starting this thread, Kev, it is a very nice change.

Well let's use a more profound case than someone's painting.

Let's use the human genome.

Who owns that? The company that mapped it?

Corperations can use the collective information to research and produce more advanced forms of medicine. By making the intelluctual property surrounding the human genome, corperations as a whole stand to benifit a lot. If someone makes a new advancement and releases that to the outside world, people everywhere will benifit. Someone unlocks the cure for cancer, and 4 medicine companies are gonna jump on it. These 4 medicine companies would have never found the solution were it not for the discovery and release of information from the outside. Competition is built into capitolism after all.

Or…. a single corperation or collaberation of corperations could monopolize this intelluctual property, and probablly make a fair amount of money doing it.

But what happens when they accidently make a virus that they can't stop? The secret to stoping the virus would be locked up in their intelluctual property.

What if the corperation decides to not go down a path of exploration and research, neglecting it for years? How many people will die from a desiese that would have a cure if more eyes were looking at the problem? How many missed capitolistic opertunities are they passing up?

Sometimes the decision to release the information is so you can make more money.

If you take the myopic view of all IP should be heavily guarded because that's the way the world's built, you completely miss the opertunity to expand the capitolistic model into something more profitable.

But let's bring this back to reality:

The other point your completely missing is releasing it do the public DOES NOT EQUATE to releasing your ownership and control of it!

Read that again. You can give your entire life's work away, and still retain complete control over it. You can deny a person or anyone from doing anything other than what you allow of it. This is a right afforded to you by copyright law.

Take the GPL. This license states that if you use the content (usually code) attached to it, and you make money off it, you have to release your changes to it back to the publc. This way, people who make money off your work must give you back the work they've done in turn in order to make money with your product.

Now instead of a single person improving a product, anyone can make improvements to it, and they HAVE TO give you back that work if they make money using it. Failure to do so results in a revocation of their rights to use the product in the first place.

In this senario, the creator has given away his work, but has not relinquished control of it. He still owns it, and has a say over how it's used.

If that licensing scheme dosn't work for you, pick another. There's a ton out there designed to fit the nuiances of releasing IP without relinquishing control over it. The GPL is just one example of a license designed to leverage the power of releasing your work to the public.

These same licenses can be applied to anything: Music, art, literature... anything.

Capitolistic markets DO drive the world. And thoes who figure out how to leverage what they have better than the others are the ones that are going to survive.

-Kevlar

You are tyring to marry capitalistic markets with industries that don't necessarily work with OL. Literature and art. Why would an author put OL on a novel? So that people with (presumably) comparatively less talent add to the work? Perhaps alter the purpose of the work? Perhaps some would think it was setting the bird free, but the majority of published authors I know defend the bastardisation of their work vehemently, and they think in those terms.

I understand the concept of OL, and I am not MISSING the point, I think you are overestimating the natural abilities of the general population with art and literature and music to improve upon these things from the original form.


I'd actually like to read the entire paper written by Lemley rather than the abstract, but it cannot be found on the SSRN website. Does anyone have a copy of it?

(Edited by Nocturnal at 5:58 pm on Sep. 11, 2004)

"Perhaps some would think it was setting the bird free, but the majority of published authors I know defend the bastardisation of their work vehemently, and they think in those terms. "

Somepeople might say that in order to compete with the visual culture and pixilated word, todays authors need to take a more flexible approach to their work as well as to the printed medium of old fashioned books and classic linear/solo story telling. Smothering protectivisme won't do anyone any good.

I wish i could download and read that paper but the cafe I'm at is in lockdown and downloads will get you tazered.

*wishes for wireless.*

Nocturnal:

As a practicing artist as well as graphic designer/'art fop' I in a lot of ways understand your desire to 'own' and 'get paid' for your work.

But here is a perspective on things, especially in the fine arts world. Fine artists up until about 150 years ago worked in a patronage paradigm where they would be employed by so-and-so rich person to do family portraits and maybe now and then something of their own. That model was lambasted by the full swing industrial revolution and by the time the World Wars were done with things, it was a model of artistic practice that was greatly reduced in scope. Does it still happen today? Sure, Saatchi pays the Chapman Brothers millions of dollars to do all sorts of art. But by and large, the majority of fine artists have moved into a situation where they seek grant money, or public patronage, from the government to produce work.

So, when a fine artist goes out and gets $5000.00 to do a series of work, s/he is paid for it already. The ideas and works and concepts are in reality owned by the populace of the country that paid taxes to pay the artist to make things.

Now, you sort of made some statements that really tick me off. One of the biggest faults in 'fine artists' are the fact that they do not do work that is in the cultural mainstream. They are in an elite bubble and really do not do anything that is commercially viable. Why the fuck would anyone want to purchase a VHS dub of an artists 'Video Artwork' which is just a 5 minute black and white shot of a woman smearing chocolate sauce on her latex clad legs? Why would I buy that? I can get it all over the place in a lot higher quality for a lot less than the change that artist is going to ask for his/her bit of light porn.

Perhaps if artists made something worth -paying- for people would buy it. As in landscape paintings, or paintings of birds, or paintings of cowboys. That is the art the public wants. If you want to be a money artist, do that. Why the hell should the public domain -pay- you to put out your conceptual ideas? Is not the role of highly conceptual art to communicate an idea with the world around us? And would not putting a price tag on an idea or image that is meant to act as a communication method place a barrier to communicating?

All questions artist -should- be thinking about when they do work.

Ummm… I'm off topic again.

Sorry.

Amen.
I would make comment on Iga's post, but I don't see the point, obviously I'm in a minority and people are tired of the conversation so I'm done.
nonsense nocturnal.

You have a valid possition, and raise an interesting and very important point. If one is a writer, artist, or musician how do you produce work that is intellectually stimulating to your creative process and still make a living. And how do you retain control over the revenue from the use of your work.

It is a very inportant issue to creative object producers.

My personal solution is to make two streams of work. One stream is commercially viable, the second stream is conceptually viable. Different products for different markets. One I make a profit, the other I give away. If I have what I think is a great idea, and wish to spread that idea, I find it counter-productive to attach a monetary value to the idea. But I still have to pay rent, so everything I make is not free.

But in terms of intellectual property legislation, I think the idea of 'intellectual property' is lame, and I love the idea of just freeing it up. The cynic in me says that people will bastardize, rape, and pillage my work. The realist in me says people already will bastardize, rape, and pillage my work weather intellectual property laws are in place. The optimist in me says that after a period of adjustment people would get tired of rehashing each other's stuff up and stop bastardizing, raping, and pillaging things on a mass scale in favour of self exploration.