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My (possibly temp) Goodbye
I'll be back later maybe

Alright. Everyone knows I pretty much lived on this game for a bit. It was fun, it was exciting, it was Role Play Intense, and it was dark and gritty. It was a game where you could make your first pc. learn, and do ANYTHING you want.

It's not anymore. It's gotten really fluffy. And it's no longer got that sandbox feel. You no longer let pc's make there own choices it feels. And before you get defensive. This isn't just MY feeling. There are posts on RPI mud forums across the internet where the older players of this game,a nd newer players, have left disgruntled, because the game has changed.

You can deny this. You can turn your head and ignore it. but the problem wont go away. it will fester, and grow, until the game gets to sick to live, and dies. I don't want to see this.

I have the UTMOST respect for Slither and Johnny. You guys are ABSOLUTELY amazing. You two, and the other staff from a while back need to sit down, look at 2 years ago, look at now and say "What's changed? Why are people saying we've changed? This many people CAN'T be completely wrong"

I will probably check back with the game at a later time (six months, a year? i don't know) and see if things have gotten better. Why? because I believe in you guys. And I know exponential growth like you had for a bit has it's own set of problems. And I have faith that you can fix it.

This isn't defensiveness, but it's hard to consider reacting to this feedback when it's so unspecific, and it's hard to take it seriously when it's coming from someone who:

"[character] last connected Sat Nov 15 03:27:43 2014 PST."

If you'd like to spell out some specifics of what "You no longer let pc's make there own choices it feels" means, be free to do so. Here on the BGBB, or via email to [email protected]

We're fluffier? Really? Well now. Do the other players think this too? I'd like to here some affirmations.


Johnny, you asked if the other players think this too.

For me, no.


It's gotten really fluffy. And it's no longer got that sandbox feel. You no longer let pc's make there own choices it feels.

I'm going to have to disagree with this because I don't see it as fluffy (of course it's my first MOO, but still), and as for choices? The game's Full of choices. Characters making their own choices (even if to be sheep for a month or not) is consistently a part of this game. And so are repercussions. Is it going to be this job or that job? Are you going to do the job for this person or not? Should you respond on sic or shouldn't you? And if you do, who catches it and what will now happen because of it?

There are more players consistently now than when I started (Last March). There are more areas (gang / family - mob / corporation / entrepreneur) to get to know and explore now than before. More *choices* that involve RP because of areas as well as rooms as well as more players! :)

That's how I see it at least.

Can you get a little burned out and need a breather? In a sense, you can, but it's because it's dark and sometimes you need to visit the real world and inject some humor, like a comedy, into your life. Or fireworks, or a good cup of tea or coffee with some friends in the real world before diving in again.

RP is there when you go looking for it (and sometimes when not) and when you create it. Plus, leaving @notes for character goals and interests helps not only you but the GM's. They DO read these and pay attention and then plot to destroy you, I mean, work with you on your goals. Sometimes without you even realizing it at least not right away (it can be that smooth).

Game's full of choices. That's my thought on this.

The GM's DO work with you in regards to your goals and even with your history. You just gotta let them know what you're doing and use @notes (for yourself and maybe even others). It's a good group and community. (7 New players in the @who last night!)

Well, it's official. I'm not killing enough players.

Oh, that's funny.

What a good response.

Thanks for bad mouthing us on web forums. I am honestly pretty upset about that. You and I had a pretty close OOC relationship in terms of admin / player and I respected the shit out of you. For you to go elsewhere and bad mouth us after everything-- I mean, I kept an IC game that I spent months working on out of the game so your character could return with it as their return plot-- without you ever actually confirming that was okay with me. Seriously, dick move man.

I might be wrong but this post has a lot of negative vibes and id like to share my experience with SD to add a bit of balance.

I've been playing now for just over a year and whilst i haven't the experience of some of the players that shall remain nameless, i think i've been here long enough to see a massive change in SD.

When i first started playing there was a small but dedicated player base, the average @who player numbers when i was playing was 7-10 on a good day and i was regularly playing with 2 or 3 other people in the whole of withmore. The player makeup was heavy mix orientated and there was little to no corpie activity. You would see the same faces over and over again (this is all my experience on my limited *quiet* timezone) and the mix was a small place for a newbie and it was very fun and exciting playing a very small fish in a medium sized pool with some very big sharks ( i will not name characters but to my eyes and from my time in game these were legends of the game). On the whole it was a fun place to be with everyone being positive both on OOC and on the boards, however inevitably due to the limited number of the players RP was somewhat limited and in my experience new players like myself had to play smart to last long and things in the game were earned over time with good play and RP.. alternatively you went hard and fast and live and die in a blaze of glory as they attracted the interested and attention of these big sharks.

It felt like the character base was a couple of dedicated hardcore characters (all 2+ years) gods in the realms of the mix .. and smattering of 1+ year olds (characters and i suspect it wasnt the players first go around) big ass sharks.. .. and then there was a semi steady of new characters (immies) little fish that came and went..

Of my class graduating (players that started within 2 weeks of me) over 90% disappeared either character/player or both within 6 weeks..and id struggle to name anyone that is still around that joined from when i started..(although its hard to keep track with alias and characters changing so often hehe..

GMs were on the whole mysterious figures hidden behind the curtain of the game, quietly getting on with doing what they do in the background ( no doubt pushing RP, building the game and hopefully having fun playing their alts and enjoying this great game they do so much thankless work to enable all of us to play)..

Fast forward a year and....

Wow .. its now unusual to see the @who list less than 17 and is regularly at megasprawl amounts.... I maybe be wrong but i believe from my perception the number of active players that are out there in the mix/topside and elsewhere is just massive, gone are the days of trying to find someone to RP with .. now you have to actively avoid it if thats your kink... The player base is larger than ever, with a more diverse mix of players/ages/archetypes/affiliations/styles of play/approaches to SD and RP interests. ..

Have we lost some big characters and players in that time? yes sure .. are they gone forever or just taking a well deserved break? who knows? i hope for the better but accept the worst if they have had their fill, good for them and the rest move on.. more space for them hungry new players to fight/scrape/steal/scheme and general aspire to replace and surpass..

But one thing i can confirm is that its SD is still a shit tonne loads of fun to play.. there are still the same opportunists as a year ago and in fact there are even more and more (thanks to the hard-work of the jinx/johnny and the other builders)..We now have more toys than ever to play with, more opportunities and every and yes more distractions that ever.

Have lost some good players over time, yes.. and we have gained a shit load more as well? Hell yeah, most of them getting it.. playing some great SD, RP the hell out of everything, putting a massive amount of time, effort and work into their characters, their RP, their descriptions ( you know who you are and kudos to ya!!)..

As has been pointed out to me, we also have two games in one here now..

Corpie land, which by its nature is going to be less nailz in your guts and a shotgun blast to your face.. but is every bit as dangerous and cut throat and cyberpunk as the good old mix..

so yes we have (in my opinion) lost a bit of that hardcore danger on every corner.. but only because we now have more corners.. the mix is still as dangerous as every (and remember its up to the players to provide that danger)

but now we have topside as well where its less obvious but im sure is just as dangerous..And if you disagree, then become that danger.. you got the character and the power to be the change in the SD that you want.. too fluffy..then leave topside and bring it to the mix.. never a Chemist on when you want drugs..then become that chemist.. cant afford and cant see how you gonna afford some wheels and are sick of the slow ass grav trains.. then learn to boost cars and fuckin have fun.

***Side note disclaimer : oh how i wish i could have two characters.. one to continue my current character who i hopefully havent finished their story.. and a 2nd to enact all the cool "destructive" RP that the great 'badies' in this game have taught me.. God bless you players that have taught me how to be a great bad guy.

In fact the only negative thing i have seen change over my time of playing .. is that the GMs seem to be spending more time babysitting and defending themselves from a small vocal minority of players that want to absorb all of their time because SD isnt working out for them, because they arent being auto-given everything they want and they want uber god mode 2 days after walking through them immie gates..

Well guess what kids.. this has a consequence that the GMs are spending less time contributing to the game or having fun themselves. This is Poisoning the atmosphere of the game and the GM/Player interactions..

I guess this is inevitable with a massive influx of players that we as a community need to do more to help the staff integrated new players in the unique game that we all call SD. Help them get over their learning curve , show them the SD that we all know and enjoy and teach them they want something then they gotta earn it..

In case you have missed any of my other posts or you haven't gotten it yet, here is a bit of friendly advice from back when i started...

"SD is hard.. SD is cyberpunk. if you a mixer or a corpie, its hard and its dog eat dog.. You want to get anywhere in this game, you have to be smart, work hard and graft (by that i mean create and participate in RP)...

if you are 2 days, 2 weeks or even 2 months into the game and you dont have that shiny chrome, or that plush place in blue.. or that super fast holden.. ask yourself one question before you start bitchin to staff or on the boards.. have you do enough to earn in game that ? .. have you taken the big risks to earned it? have you grafted like its your very life? have you cheated/stolen and made enough enemies for it?.. if the answer is no then thats on you not the game?...

If you just been iced because you've pissed of the wrong gang or your power play corpie move went sideways.. what are you going do? throw your toys out the pram, bitch and complain on the boards and to staff or are you going de-tank, regroup and fucking earn that revenge.. plot scheme,. RP motherfuckers.. get out there and enjoy it. Dont expect everything just because you log in and play.. dont demand shit on xhelp because you think you have a right to it.. fuck that shit. this aint that kinda game and thank fuck for that!!! play smart/ play hard for fuck off home.. go back to easy mode and go play any other mainstream , hand held, linear game thats out there."

So in short, yes SD has changed.. SD has evolved and moved on.. get with the time.. swim faster or sink.. your choice chummer!.

As always this is just my 2 chyen, my opinion. feel free to ignore me rather than get upset by my comments.

I'm already public enemy number one so I might as well be the one too say this. Anyone who has a problem with the game probably won't say it, especially on here. The moment someone has a problem, they are jumped on, that are attacked for what they think either by admin OR by the players and it makes people not want to post their opinions on things.

Sure we're all adults and we should all be mature enough to not go after one another when someone has a personal opinion on something. Just because we all don't share the same opinion doesn't mean we should be outright being rude. That goes for people who have problems with the game and those who protect it. I'm not picking sides but it's just my 2 chyen that if anyone does have a problem, they probably aren't going to say anything without fear of being attacked for giving their opinion, not because they believe they're wrong.

I'm already public enemy number one so I might as well be the one too say this. Anyone who has a problem with the game probably won't say it, especially on here. The moment someone has a problem, they are jumped on, that are attacked for what they think either by admin OR by the players and it makes people not want to post their opinions on things.

Sure we're all adults and we should all be mature enough to not go after one another when someone has a personal opinion on something. Just because we all don't share the same opinion doesn't mean we should be outright being rude. That goes for people who have problems with the game and those who protect it. I'm not picking sides but it's just my 2 chyen that if anyone does have a problem, they probably aren't going to say anything without fear of being attacked for giving their opinion, not because they believe they're wrong.

Well, we can do without the negativity especially when it's not constructive. I'd feel better if people like Mann never spoke their minds at all if they can't be constructive or decide to speak without having played the game for months and have no idea what they're talking about.

I don't think Mann was trying to out right bash the game, they seem like a player whose had a tough time. He didn't say he badmouthed the game on the forums, he said there are forums he has seen that has people doing it, not that he's done it himself.

He seems like someone who cares about the game and wants to help it, If you want critic it always ends the same way, people get defensive (which is natural) and than it just gets into a bloodbath of bitching and whose right and wrong. If there was a way to put in suggestions or ect without the risk of it being tossed aside or being attacked for it maybe players would feel comfortable to give you their real opinions.

I've had mixed feelings about this game during my six months of play. I immensely enjoy the unique vibes and immersion you'll get from the urban lore, theme, and culture at work in-game. I love the way NPCs are portrayed and the congolomeration of niches and roles that anyone can work to achieve if they're willing to put in the time, though I've personally haven't quite experienced one of the fabled plots of mystery, cyberpunk intrigue, and ganger violence.

My biggest issues with the game, however, have always been how I've perceived the staff of RP admins. Sometimes I think Cerberus really is as big of an asshole as everyone says, but then he's been nothing but nice in the few times that I've dealt with him, yet I keep hearing about all the terrible shit that he's apparently done and the accusations just pile up. I even heard things like Johnny was fucking Sally, Tom, and Harry on the side on his PC alt and giving out favors for naked pictures. I, as someone who recently joined, don't need to hear this kind of thing. And if I'm hearing it, I know there's got to be someone else who's hearing it. It colors my perception of the community negatively and keeps me from wanting to invest in this game by creating awesome roleplay, making objects, donating, etc, and so on and so forth that someone is allowed to help.

I'd also like to see more variety in plots. We only see echoes of what really goes on in behind the scenes, and I've generally been turned off from the finantical psychotic murder, gang wars, and general extremes that apparently makes the most waves. There's like, hundreds of different things I'd like to see happening that I sniff out and hope to find, but I've been sorely disappointed in so far. Where's the plots geared toward the people in X, Y, Z? Doing C, B, D? Obviously I can't be specific, given that it's a forum and all, but I'm down for writing plot ideas. All I do in other games is run stories and plots.


If your game play is being negatively effected by reading things about the GMs and creator, don't read those things is my best advice and form your own opinions. Is Cerberus really just a major ass? No. He's blunt and decisive and he's a fantastic GM that gets shit done. Some people don't like blunt, decisive, or having their shit done.

Johnny does not play the game. He is the game. And, who cares if someone is having sex with everyone else and giving favors for text pics of naked MOOers? That's themely. Grit, sex, drugs, bad smells, weird people.

In the end, you need to form your own opinion of the game and it's admins and players, remember, the world is a CYPK world. If you have watched anything on the inspiration list, it's gangers and sadness and danger etcetera. That said, if you play a corpie, it's a whole 'nother list of dangers. Mixers stab you in the front, Corpies stab you in the back.

I have personally been involved in corpie plots that did not involve gangers or much grit. I have also been involved in plots that did involve them. If you seek it, it will come. Use @notes effectively, make an idea of where you'd like your character to be and try to get them there. If they fall on the way, enjoy the RP opportunity it provided.

The point of the above post was to be satirical in light of a lot of things that I've heard from players. But I do, however, believe the way a community paints it's RP admins and fellow members weighs heavily on the way some people view the game. If someone hears nothing but the bad experiences of players who haven't liked the way Cerb the Herb has done things, then it's going to make newcomers who don't know the real truth about him or other members of the staff leery in approaching them in fear of getting the same experiences.

You apparently voice otherwise and that's fine. I'm also glad that you've had an easier time experiencing corporate themed plots. I witnessed the echoes from what you went through and still continue to watch your character. That's great. Fantastic. Also, I'm quite well acquainted with how to set up RP that I want.

My OP was to be satirical, by the way, in case someone takes the Johnny-related rumors to actually be something that's been told to me. But the amount of things that, I, a new person, have been told are kind of ridiculous and it speaks volumes about the relationships and encounters other people have had with other admins. Whether it's like, a case of being butthurt or not, doesn't matter, it still hurts the rapport that admins might never get a chance to build because another butthurt player has done a good job of painting admin A in such a negative way that newbie John is resistant to approaches.

i've had a more constructive time talking about things i think could be better about the game lately. also im optimistic about some ideas for new gm tools i heard johnny talking about to keep track of whats going on with players. woop. also i mean i just finally obtained some concrete ic things to do so there's my bias, i was listened to when i was discussing different sources of player frustration the other day & got a reassuring xhelp about it (from cerb too).

i think we might still be in an adjustment period for this big playerbase and it sucks it had to go so bad for a lot of people. i think a lot of the bad feelings i have seen come from a sincere place and i wouldnt try to rebuke them (yes i heard about the ridiculous shit too but besides that). i think like some of you guys mentioned the big hurdles are gonna be figuring out a way to make negative/losing/struggle aspects fun & exciting more often than bummers or grinds that worry players theyre not going to be allowed to have any fun, (but i think a lot of this can be resolved with new gm tools johnny was talking about), and finding a way to resolve the issue that requires gms to break immersion to xhelp/announce "roleplay is happening even if you can't see it" because i know we all hate being told that even though we know it's true. for players, all that matters is what they can see! that's the whole game experience. so they would ideally never have to (for example) feel like the role the GMs picked for them was a more powerful character's or gm alt's dikumud mobile to farm. it's a learning process but we can get there. theres an engineer mentality i'm catching glimpses of where players & staff sit around and talk about how to improve things because we want to make a better game and entertain each other and i think that deserves encouragement.

also ive been seeing / hearing about cerb really pumping the brakes when it comes to on-duty encounters and i think that should be appreciated too!! nobody likes being called an asshole and sometimes it sucks even more if you're making a concentrated effort like that and putting yourself out there just to hear people say the same old mean shit about you. yes this is me going on record as worrying about cerbs feeeelings.

i still have opinions on staff/player interaction where i think we can do better (never think you cant do better), so im not like jackin it 100% yet but hopefully that makes the above seem more sincere.

I was a newbie to this game almost two years ago. I played it for quite a while - seven months maybe - and enjoyed the game. I got to see a few plots start, some finish and a few just beginning right before I had to quit playing. (I had to 'leave' due to an injury that prevented me from playing so it wasn't anything to do with the game.) Fast forward to a few months ago and now I'm a pseudo-newbie again. That gives me a unique perspective, I guess because I have something to compare and contrast..maybe? A definitive 'before and after'.

Anyways. Yes, there is a different 'feel' in some areas to the game. There are more players, which is creating more roleplay. There are more corporate-styled players which is bringing about that 'separation' of the masses that I thought the game really needed when I first played. There are different bad guys, good guys and in between guys. The plots are being GMed by different people. But, I don't think different should equate to better or worse. I have to say, I'm seeing more 'game-wide' plots which is great. There were some really good big plots but I think staff had a harder time getting them going because of playerbase numbers. Instead, there were lots of little plots but if you weren't closely involved, you ended up having a seat in the nose-bleed section, and that can be disheartening. To me, the game is just as enjoyable as it was two years ago if not even a bit more so.

I don't think the game has lost any of its grittiness. I don't think that it's overly fluffy. Yes, I will admit that for my play style, there is a more 'huggly' feel sometimes...but that comes from the ability to actually HAVE more friends than enemies because of the numbers of players. So, I can accept that it's not really a bad thing.

I still find it to have the same foundation, as it were, in playability and style. There is still the back-stabbing, cheating, murdering, suffering...yada yada. It is just being done by newer players. Those that are still feeling out their 'bad boy/bad girl' personas. Most of the 'bad guys' from before were players that had spent years perfecting their characters and/or play styles to achieve the optimal peak in nastiness. But, I know that all of those same players started out as newbies too.

So, my advice to any new players or prospective players reading this forum--Don't listen to the negatives. Don't even listen to the positives. Play the game. Feel it out. Form your own opinion. Don't come in with a pre-conceived notion either way and instead let yourself be drawn in with an open mind. Every person has their own play style and their own 'comfort zone'. Just because someone else said they hated the game (or loved the game) doesn't mean that it will fit the same for you. And, that's okay. If you like it, stick around and play. If you don't, that's okay too. Thank you for the visit. Come back later and see us again. It might be a different place. Sindome is an ever-changing world because of-and thanks to-its fluid and fluctuating style found in part from the different characters, playerbase and staff that constantly evolve.

Its been said before.. but let me repeat it one last time....

All Staff on this game.. be the Johnny, Builders, Admin or whatever are strictly volunteers. VOLUNTEERS...


They are giving up their free time, putting their energy, efforts and creativity into this game so that we can all enjoy a free awesome game.. have fun and relax. They are not getting anything from this other than helping out a game they love enough to support.

Sure you may dislike some of their choices or decisions when it comes to you're character, RP , and you're experience in SD.

You can dislike how blunt or not they are. you may dislike the tone you perceive that they are speaking in..

HOWEVER the very least that you should do is RESPECT that they are sticking themselves out there , VOLUNTEERING to help this game and the community..

Just for one moment just take a second and think about it.. let it really sink in.. Here we have am all volunteer staff, that are putting themselves into the firing line. Having to make difficult decisions, having to create something and put it other there for others to enjoy, having to sacrifice their time and effort into building something and helping people out and for all this what do they get back for you? from the community? from the game??? Really stop and ask that question to yourself...

Thankfully 99% of the community appreciate their efforts but the small vocal minority are leeching this energy, undermining this creativity and generally giving grief to a load of other people that's just trying to make this game fun for everyone.

I've never been a GM in SD.. i don't know any of them personally IRL or oocly. I've disagreed with some of the things that have happened in SD and ive been both told off and educated by GM's and Admin. Im pretty sure that ive been subjected to some negative RP thats been generated by the GMs and ive had in game setbacks that have frustrated me..

HOWEVER i have never taken this personally.. i've always respected and appreciated the effort that the GMs have spent with me and my characters.. When dealing with them on xhelp or other forms of ooc communication i have found each and every interaction respectful (if sometimes a little short and blunt, probably because they were busy..) and always positive for myself personally and for the game in general. You can actually tell that the real people behind the alias's genuinely care about this game, the community and the players that are playing it....

To question if they are abusing this 'burden' they have VOLUNTEERED for, for their own gain somehow ......, To have a go at them for any reason.. To name GMs and baseless accuse them of things... To harass, windup, verbally abuse and then come crying to OOC chat or the boards..

All of these things are simply bang out of order and shows up the person throwing the accusation as a child throwing their toys out of the pram, it shows a complete lack of empathy for the efforts and feelings of people just trying to help create something and it shows a complete lack of understand as to what it takes to be a GM , to be an impartial referee, to create anything and put it other there for others to critic... I know that an incredible amount of effort is taken in recruiting, training and mentoring GMs, so to accuse one of them of abusing their position or other similar disruptive thing is just plain retarded.

By all means you as a member of the community are entitled and encourage to come up with ideas to improve the game (*thats why Johnny has provided us with a whole board for it*).. you are also entitled to be upset when something negative happens to your character.. you are have been gifted a whole raft of means and ways to communicate RESPECTFULLY (@notes, boards, even xhelp in an emergency) with other members of the community and the Staffers (A somewhat unique thing for this game that we are in danger of losing it idiots keep abusing this)... So use these things if you are truly passionate about the game,.. shit volunteer yourself for writing scripts or descriptions.. put youre energy and effort into creating content, RP for SD...

I for one am sick of any and all negativity that is being put out there towards any member of staff via any means.. OOC chat, boards or whatever. Its driving the fun out of the game.. its creating a poisonous environment and i imagine that its going to cause lots of the above mentioned VOLUNTEERS to question is it all worth it....

If you are unable to respect these volunteers and the work they are doing. then LEAVE.. no one is forcing you to stay and play..

I'll be the first admin to say this: I don't see players complaining when admin do things that benefit them.

Simple as that. But guess what? We're all waiting for your characters to be comfortable before pulling the rug from under you. It is themely and totally CP.

So, for the record. Nothing about the OP was constructive. They haven't logged in since November 15th and made this post without any knowledge about the current IC state of the game.

Assumptions clad in negativity and ignorance will never be construed as constructive. I don't know why anyone would suggest it could be constructive.

If you want to see the game improve and you think the game is fluffy, go out there and make it less fluffy. That's what someone does when they want the game to improve, they don't check out for six months after throwing around accusations and threaten (yes I mean it when I say threaten) to return.

For the record, the game is not fluffy and like Amika said, players don't like to hear it, but I've got more plots than I can count on one hand being prepped and taken IC and most of you only know about two of them, so how does that make you feel when you tell me there should be more variety in plotting? LOUD ANGRY COMBAT plots are the ones you hear about across city-wide comms because those are the ones that purposefully attracting attention. Plots aren't always meant to be city-wide every single instance one is brought to life, they start with a focus around a player's hard work in RP whether it's consequences or a player that doesn't go to NPC's often and could benefit from some NPC related plotting as an RP experience. We need things to happen to kick off interest plots that have focal points among the player base.

So get out there and RP, and things will start to move around you, it's entirely up to YOU to notice, catch wind of it, and participate in an IC way for your character.

Remember, not every character is going to be suited for a particular role in every plot.

So please don't act like we don't plot enough, it's out there, it's up to you to find it, participate, encourage it, solve it, help it happen, whatever you want to do, all of these options are typically kept open in plot related RP activity. I try not to make things so narrowly focused that deviation from the prime objective isn't allowed, that wouldn't be fitting for an RP enforced environment.

If you don't like plots that has someone murdering people for their RP as a consequence, I recommend not doing obviously things to make yourself a target, no one is forcing you to participate in those, be IC and develop a fear of death and avoid those plots all together. Just please remember, those are the plots that are easiest to see and you're going to have to work harder to uncover what else is really going on around you.

Just in case my post was misunderstood - I think there are A LOT of great RP plots going on currently - both city wide and smaller ones. Which was what my words were meant to confer in case they didn't. My comparison about the 'little plots' from the above post was referencing two years ago when there were less players to participate and work to further along plot ideas. Not referencing current game play nor meant to be seen as criticizing either current staff nor past staff. Apologies if I didn't express myself well enough.

Wasn't directed at you.

I think we all understand wintermute that they are VOLUNTEERS, we also know that we choose to be on this game, whether we like the admin or not. However just because someone might have a negative view of something in the game doesn't mean that they are not welcomed.

When you volunteer to do something wintermute, do you go to a homeless shelter to serve food and bad mouth all the homeless people? Do you throw stuff at them or do you do what you're supposed to and help them, give them their food and such. Just because people volunteer doesn't give people a right to be a dick or too just rule thing the way they want them too.

If there is an opinion about an admin or how something is being done than the person should have a right too express it.I didn't realize this game had become a dictatorship or some type of communism where a players opinion didn't matter. Because that's how it just sounded with some of the new comments. I've had my characters raised high and than had their ups and downs. I enjoyed a lot of downs even if there was a little something fishy on how it happened but there are things that we don't see happen which I respect.

I've been fishy on being raised up high as well knowing my character wasn't ready for that type of responsibility but being pushed into the position and embracing it. You try to play with the cards that are delt too you. If you want some constructive criticism here i'll give it too it now.

I think admins need to read notes a bit more often, iv'e had a few occassions where i've written notes and nothings been put into progress, i've had times where characters/npcs were in good terms with mine and than a complete turn around out of no where. Sure that could be due to something behind the scenes which is great and all. But sometimes it doesn't feel like the staff communicate and read past notes on a character other admin have written.

Sometimes as said before the plots seem like they are the same ones over and over, or they are ones that are being restored from the past, that's great and all but at least give a new twist too it, i've seen admin plots go bad where things didn't go the way they wanted and dropped it completely. That just left the rest of us hanging, so maybe instead of just dropping a plot because it didn't work, that theres some good explanation for it other than the NPC just poofed.

I enjoy the game, despite the few breaks i've taken myself because I just need a fresh air of reality, but there are people who just won't speak their minds when it is needed and pushing down critic is how a game gets on hate forums.

I'll even admit i've had quiet a few arguments with admins because of not taking a step back, I don't get along with Cerberus, that doesn't mean I don't respect them. We just clash on most things because it's how our personalities are. I admit I apologize for the shit i've caused too the admin, but the game -does- get stressful and it's understandable for people to get upset. Sometimes a step back is needed or an explanation, not the -whole behind the scene- thing but something to calm the player down. I've had Johnny do that a couple of times and it was like 'oh alright' and it was the end of discussion.

You make a ton of assumptions without having any knowledge about the why and how behind decisions.

This is the type of stuff that isn't constructive. You point out how you see things have gone wrong but you really have no clue about what happened.

The GMs read notes before RP happens. A player may perceive their relationship with NPCs a lot differently than the GM who puppeted the NPC does.

Honestly, if you see things wrong with the game, report them when they're relevant. It does no one any good to talk about issues from six to eight months ago as if there is anything we could possibly do to address them now. Things change so regularly that a problem last month likely isn't even an issue this month.

There are also certain NPCs that are normally only RP'd by certain admin, and when you have an admin who doesn't know the character as well as the person who plays it things end up different and it makes the situation a bit more confusing for the player.

I don't bring things that happened six or eight months ago, maybe a couple of months ago but i've stopped playing for the most part because i've lost interest in the game, I come on now and than but when you feel like nothing is moving forward in something that you cannot control, you just lose interest.So they may not be -recent- but the fact that they happened doesn't mean it makes it any better.

Right, sometimes shit happens, a new GM puppets an NPC and you don't like the experience you got because you're used to other GMs who puppet the NPC.

I get it, you're dissatisfied with your experience. You're welcome to not play.

Either way, stop complaining about things that I can't address because they've happened months ago.

I'm not complaining I was giving critic like you wanted, i'm not asking anything to be done of what happened a couple of months ago. I was proving my point in the discussion, if things have changed, great. Good.

Disclaimer: Normally as in my above comments i try and make things generic however as Mew specifically mentioned me, i think its only appropriate to respond in kind.

Mew. Apologies if i wasn't clear enough with my last post. Id like to assume that you afforded me the same respect by reading my post as i did yours (in fact i re read your post a number of times so as to make sure that i understood what you were saying), so ill assume that i was not elegant enough to get my point across. Therefore i will try and break it down again.

To be clear , i am all for players and constructive members of the community having a voice and being able to constructive contribute, in fact i wrote a whole paragraph about this and included a number of ways that we have been gifted the ability to do so.

However the purpose of my post was to point out that all members of this community deserve respect and should be treated accordingly. This in my opinion goes double for those that contribute the most to the game be they Staff or contributing players.

What i was attempting to get across is that in all things you should expect and extend this Respect via all means of communicate we have.

It has been my experience in life in general that people bang on about their rights and getting Respect and yet a lot of the time they forget their responsibilities and that they should offer the same respect that they demand.

We as players have a responsibility to use our voice for the good of the community and the game, so i was attempting to point out what in my opinion is a correct and incorrect way of using this responsibility.

Mew, i find your analogy of the homeless shelter a flawed one... your example of bad mouthing, throwing stuff, 'being a dick' and general negative behavior towards the homeless people as being the very thing that i was complaining about in my post. Im am sure this is a a simple mistake on you're part and not deliberate but you are in fact implying in a 'baseless general accusation on a public forum that the staff here do the same in game to our players.. Which in my opinion/experience and i dare say 99.99999% of the rest of the players would be completely incorrect and the exact opposite of what actually happens.

I also would point out that and this is just my opinion again that its inappropriate and generally disrespectful for people to name drop specific GM's that they bitch about on the boards and other public forums. To be clear i'm not saying that you have to like and agree with all GMs.. what i am saying is that if you have a disagreement with a specific one, the public forums are not the correct place to communicate this. Id respectfully ask what is the purpose of singling out a specific GM and telling the world you disagree with them? Now having said that i appreciate that in your post you are not being directly disrespectful to a named GM..and by deliberately including youre name in my general statement about others that have in the past targeted a specific named GM, i am grouping you with them and thus tarnishing your name. This is the exact behavior i'am rallying against and have thus done it deliberately here to prove a point.

To address your specific Criticism.. If i am correct what you are mainly complaining about is that you have experienced a slightly jarring NPC interaction because you expected one type of response and got another.. Firstly, id respectfully suggest that this isnt really constructive criticism and shouldnt be raised on a board for the following points.

1. its not exactly game breaking, raising it is not going to suggest ways to improve the game, or help provide feedback to the the community or feed into anything its just a gripe. No one ever said that SD is perfect.

2. Id respectfully inquire if you had considered if YOU had done everything in your power to make life easier for the GM puppeting the NPC by your in game interaction. Reviewing your own interactions, did you make it plain and obvious to the GM your intentions? your perception of your characters relationship with the NPC via your characters RP and speech? In Short had you given the GM enough to go on to match your expectations?

3. Is it possible that ICLY events outside of your knowledge had correctly changed the behavior that NPC would give to your character? is it possible that in fact the GM was puppetting completely correctly and in fact you failed in your RP to interact? Whats to stop you icly from calling the NPC on their behavior ? "hey mano i thought we was tight? why you up in my face?" etc etc..

4. and this is a General one.... SD isnt perfect? .. GMS are not perfect .. so yes we have a small overworked staff that have lots of responsibility/tasks and lives of themselves.. can we really expect ALL of them to intimately know all the relationships that every single character in the game has with every other player/NPC and affiliation?... Is it reasonable for us to go with the flow sometimes when we are blessed with the time and energy of one of these volunteers that isnt the "usual" staff and are just mucking in an helping out but might get a slight tone or behavior from a NPC different that the GM that your used to??..

In summary yes we all have a right to be heard.. I would however say that we all have a responsibility to choice the correct medium for using our voice and also question our motives for using that voice?.. if you have a issue with a specific GM interaction.. if you genuinely feel like someone has behaved inappropriately towards you? AND you dont believe or understand that they GMS themselves work very hard at training/policing and managing themselves.. .. IF all that is True and i failed to believe that personally for a second.. THEN id ask if bitching on the public boards the appropriate place to raise these concerns?..... Would not an @note or in an extreme case (that i dont think has ever happened) then a xhelp or even an email not be more appropriate?..Raise it by all means.. then trust in the judgment of the general GM collective and move on.. And if the word comeback that no in fact you are at fault. then maybe you should listen to the 5+ staff members that review that encounter and take a second to think oh wait am i actually in the wrong? was inappropriate? what can i learn from this?

If you have a issue with the game and can improve it then make a suggestion of the Ideas board? raise a real issue and suggest a way to fix it..

If you are bored of the RP that you are regualrly encountering with your character.. maybe thats your RP play.. The GMs shouldnt be expected to feed you new story hooks. you got all the tools in game to get out there and create your own RP, your own storys, be they small isolated ones for just your character or a small number of players or make them so big they involve the whole player base.. its upto you to do this., not the GMs to spoon feed them to you!

Im NOT saying that players should not contribute or raise things or generally should just be passive.. what i am saying is that we have plenty of means of contributing and providing POSITIVE feedback to the game/staff and community.. We are using one right here.. and the Ideas threads are overflowing with brilliant ideas... What these public forums /ooc chat are not for is airing out personal grievances with specific GMs or players or events thats happened icly..

SD is at its best when the whole community both players and staff work together to fixes whatever small issues that remain with this brilliant game, when we come up with new ideas, new RP, new plots together to tell new and exciting stories with cool new toys and grit cyberpunk flare... and its at its worst when a small minority of players fixate on things not being 100% to their liking, wasting time energy and generally sucking the fun out of the game.

This is all just my opinion and 2 chyen. as always feel free to ignore if you want rather than get upset.

Quote: Well, it's official. I'm not killing enough players.

Was that a joke? I hope it was. I always thought you were better then that.

Don't abuse the fact your mobile phone changes IP address often, you're not welcome to post on these forums.

If I /wanted/ to abuse it I would have done so long ago. I only asked if that was a joke. You don't have to go hostile on me.

Issac, I saw the joke.

It came across as a joke.

Had a friend tell me this post got a lot more response then I was intending (and not the kind I was sincerely hoping)

So i am going to say this.

1st: Fluffy wasn't the best word. I'm going to rewrite things to be more specific. i just didn't want to come across to negative.

2nd: If you think for some reason that my complaint isn't valid because i stopped playing somewhat recently, you are deluding yourself. As i said, my thoughts are echoed across the internet by long time players you have lost.

3rd:I'm sorry slither, if I upset you with me recending my support of the game on another forums. But when I can't honestly state that my previous review of the game is still valid, then I would do that for anything. you know me. I like to be honest.

Now to begin. Yes, i have posted on another forum saying about the same thing I posted originally here. But if you are going to count that against me, then i demand you count the positive things i STILL tell people about the game. Which is mostly about the staff.

I say that Johnny runs a tight ship, that I have personally seen him yell at staff for playing on there alts instead of running scenes.

I say that Slither is one of the best storytellers I've ever met on the internet.

And I say that Cerberus is almost always there to answer your xhelps.

(I don't mean to leave the other hardworking staff out. i just never dealt with you that much)

I also state that the problems are most likely growing pains. the game recieved a HUGE influx of players, quickly, and found them in areas doing things you never expected. I also state that I believe in time this will be fixed.

Alright, all of the reach around is done. Now I will be brutally honest. If you wish to continue to gloss over my points, or write things off. it's on you. I love this game, and this place. And this is meant to help. Regardless what you might think.


What did i mean by fluffy? it's not that there isn't enough death. it's not that the dogs, or cannibals, or crazy terrorist NPC's don't exist.

It's the handholding between factions. There isn't fighting between corps like there should be. Everyone is friends.

Corporate pc's can't go to the mix, even though this flys in the face of not only your lore, but your VERY ROOM DESCRIPTIONS. Most corpie pc's come through the mix, so SHOULD be coming topside with illegal connections. This shouldn't be severed. This is cyberpunk. That's how it's supposed to be.

Staff Interactions: it used to be that if you left a note stating you are working for a goal, staff would get with you, and work with you on achieving that goal. the last few times I tried this. I got yelled at by staff. For doing it the exact same way i had always done it. i wasn't trying anything special. I was doing things I knew to already be coded into the game, and letting staff know what I was going to do to work torwards the goals.

Don't want me to do it? Fine. Put up an IC block somehow. Don't pull me into the void and bitch at me for trying to grow the game world, and spread plot and fun.

I think a lot of this had to do with the very high demand that grew, and staff trying to plug holes where they could, until things get worked out. And that is absolutely fine. As i said before, i have faith in you, and i WILL be back to play again one day.

All that being said. Staff have my email. You know how to get in touch if you want to talk. (for whatever reason)

Thanks for the faith, Mann, but can you at least be clear that you were not voided and yelled at just for leaving a note?

This kind of exaggeration is unhelpful.

Of course your bosses are going to pressure you into NOT going to the dangerous part of town. The odds are highly likely that something bad would happen to their employee. This could easily come back to harm the corporation. So their 'policy' is to err on the side of caution. This is exactly like corporations today.

You're still oocly free to do what you want. It doesn't run counter to the descriptions at all. Those people are obviously ignoring their bosses wishes, and why shouldn't they! I mean, its only a problem if their bosses have no way to deny they knew about it (factually and not just hear-say, unless you've had a bad relationship with your boss, then he might WANT to get rid of you and this is all the cause he needs.)

"It's the hand-holding between factions. There isn't fighting between corps like there should be. Everyone is friends."

Sorry, but there is not the amount of hand-holding you seem to think there is. There IS fighting and undermining between corps. No, everyone is not friends.

Just because someone smiles and plays nice doesn't mean that they are friends and not plotting how to get some piece of information needed for their own corporation or own gang or themselves. There's hostile and then there's covertly hostile.

Corpies going into the Mix? Renting out back rooms for clandestine meetings because too much recognition of who they are topside? Or who they are meeting can't easily go topside themselves? This happens (or should be happening) but also, just because someone is wearing nice clothes doesn't mean they are a Topsider. Family / Mob wouldn't be wearing cheap immy clothes. And there are Mixers meeting Corpies topside to exchange information, money, etc. too.

None of that means 'friends'. But there are things like, enemy of my enemy is my friend (doesn't mean they are ace batas), subduing and enemy without fighting, all warfare is based on deception - these things are going on.

Different people RP differently but that doesn't mean people who are being friendly don't have other reasons behind their actions. People are going to try to knock other other people off their ladders but with a smile. Mixers & Corpies alike.


Even though I haven't had anyone in particular get with me on my notes, through gameplay and various interactions, I've seen things come up to help me with some of the goals, including an enemy popping up which helped me come up with other solutions to get out a little goal of mine. I admit I didn't catch it at first but then I started seeing it after a little while.

GM's DO read the Notes you write and plot and come up with things for that even if not obvious to you (at least at first). :)


I understand that some people may think it's friendly due to a limited amount of interactions they have with various players. But who would you more likely approach or be willing to be approached by? A person who thinks over sic how horrible people are and is known for being hostile and killing people or someone, who may or may not be more dangerous, who can actually have a sit down with you and give you work or be willing to work for you? (No doubt some hostile persons might actually get a sit down of a sort and told they are bad for business by certain Family members, or Family members talking with a Gang Leader who then has a sit down with a lower gang member.)

My 2 cents or chy. (This ended up longer than when I first set out to write this.)