My Realizations (Warning: Novel)

Alright. This is probably going to be another one of those posts that makes sense and seems right in my mind as I write it, but later I see as wrong or pointess. I hope this turns out to be false.

Before I say what I think needs to be said, I'll clarify my position right now as to where I'm coming from with all of this, so no-one can blame me for trying ot claim more experience than I've earned. Before SD, like some people here, I never knew Cyberpunk existed. In my time spent here, now dating a little over a year with various characters, I've come to love Cyberpunk in all of its aspects. I read Neuromancer, RP'ed with the likes of Moss and Lucifer, and never looked back. I've turned Cyberpunk into a part of my life…it is its own culture, along with all the others of our spanned generations, such as jocks, Goths, metal-heads, whatever. Some only read CP books, some play CP games, some do all of it, and such, people like me. I've spent the last year and then some playing this game as differnet types of a player, in different character roles, and even spent a small amount of time as a GM of the MOO.

Now, this is what I see.

I won't claim that my time spent among the Admin. was all-revealing and granted me great wisdom, but, in all honesty, it -did- grant my vision that not all players are privy too.

Admins. are becoming bored with the game. Whether or not they'll admit to it, they are, to some extent or another. They put things into the game, that end-up having little-to-no player use, which is very sad considering some of these devices (Afterhoughts Memorial, telepresence phones, etc).
They need the players. I don't know how to fully explain this, but it ins't that complex. They need players for pure numbers, and they need them to USE THE TOOLS THAT THE ADMINS CREATE.

The players are becoming extremely bored. Not all of them, and not all of the time, but by and large, many are bored by the run crates/payrent/avoid ganger/sit at Drome routine. The game might as well be a 'Cheers' MOO, for many. For some, this is a lack of attention from the admins...I'll leave out names, to not cross the IC/OOC lines too much, and I beg none of this to be edited... I'm not claiming to know the full story on any of these, but just offering my perspective...these are some instances: A player, was to my knowledge setting up a type of public display/event, and as far as my knowledge, this has kinda gone under due to lack of GM-side support for the happening. In another plot, a player was steeped in action and shit going on, involving a lot of things, numerous players, and even a well-known corp. from GOLD...only to have the plot completely stop and just fall apart, to my knowledge, Admins. essentially dropping the ball on it.
This screws plots, screws players out of a lot of RP opportunity, and frustrates frustrated players even more. I'm not for one second saying this has ever happened intentionally, and that anyone can really be 'blamed', but we can't forget that shit like this happens.

So, the way I see it, every person on this MOO is at a stalement. The Admins need both more players, and more player support..and the players need more players, and admin/player-support alike.

So, what needs to happen? Well, like Ras said, a lot.

Go ahead, I WANT SD compared with CS. they are fair in some ways, and some not. I easily and simply know why CS has more players than SD on a regular basis. It's very easy, you don't need to play it very long to know. MORE STUFF. Everyone knows this. Matrix, air and land vehicles, numerous jobs, more area, whatever. Problem is, the way they RP and they we RP are completely different. That said, let's get to the real issue here:
What needs to happen to make SD a really fucking great place to roleplay Cyberpunk?

I really think we need Admins and players alike to get re-born in Cyberpunk. by now, 90% of both players and Admin alike have been going through our rituals and shit on SD for so long, no-one remembers the addictive qualities we all knew when we first came here...something else that TAFKAR touched on.

So, this is my plea. If you haven't in a while...go read Neuromancer. go read All Tomorrow's Parties. Go watch Bladerunner, read Transmet. Get back to knowing what  makes CP CP, and consciously bring it back to the game.

A few final and misc. notes:

*Admins, I know you all work extremely hard, and especially on top of everything else, I know we all have real lives to attend to on a #1 prioritiy, but shit needs to get done, and quick. Players don't give 2 flying penii about some back-end, structural 'make things easier form now on' code. Is it important? OF COURSE. But we, as players, need more than that, and sooner than you think you can do it. We need the Matrix, we need the cyber-tech, we need the vehicles everyone can get access to eventually. I still believe that until vehicles are available to all players, then no player should have them.
I'm not going to tell Johnny or Kevlar how to do what they're doing, or claim in any way that I could do any better...but after..what, 3-4 years, I think it's ridiculous that the only implant in the game is SIC. No matter how CP we claim to be, a lot of it just isn't here. Yet. To me, CP is the technology. Yes, the action, the back-stabbing, the greed, the survival, whatever else..but if you take away technology, it's not CP anymore at all..it's westerns, or just action/drama. Follow?

Admins need to seriously get shit going, I don't mean plots. I think if the code is there, the players -will- follow. We need all of that shit...we need the implants, the weapoins, the vehicles, the cyberspace, the areas. We -NEED- it, and we need it seriously fucking fast.

The players need to understand and treat the MOO like a real world. With no NPC's, etc. I know this has been said time and time again, but perhaps this time it gets through. A problem is, we have a few regulars doing what they always do, and a lot of newcomers either A>Doing shit, or B>Being fucking retarded. Most fall under the latter. Argue any of these you like, they are just some things I've thought for a while:
Player starting money..I don't see this as affecting that much, though increasing it wouldn't really hurt anything, unless it was by quite a lot.
Increase the cost of clones, but lower the amount it costs to update them
More jobs. Having everyone run for Bruce all the time fucks things up in more ways thatn I care to type out.
More weapons of more types, with costing less.

THere's more, but I'm sure this has been long enough that most people have skipped over it. I can't even remember if I covered everything i wanted to, but there it all is.

Game on. Seriously
Go. Fucking. Play.

Ya know i'm not sure if this was a posted idea or it's an *gasps* original though comming from me, but here it goes.  I'm right there with ya when it comes to increasing the price of clones.  Or at least make different cloneing packages. Cheaper ones increasing the risk of DCD and the like.  But a more expensive one and get to wake up in a nice cozy room by yourself, no more embarressing changin in front of your fallin comnrades into those nasty jumpsuits.  Wake up, have a drink and a nice robe waiting for ya.  A bath to clean the goo off ya know?  And I completely agree with players being bored.  I am to some extent, and I'm a friggin Judge.  But that might be cause I've been gone for a while and haven't gotten back into the swing of things.  As for giving people more money to start with, what's the word…"bollocks"?  I personally don't care for the idea, make it easier for the newbs to come in blow all their chargen points in combat and go get a weapon.  Give em more money to start with and that's what'll happen.  Personally I don't see why you even start with Chyen if your stripped of all your personal belongings when you walk through the gate.  Make em write a history to make that money, maybe I shouldn't be going there cause my history writing is somewhat lax but I ain't gonna take it back now.  Yeah this is CP, yeah we need cyberware and the matrix, but I'm sure that we need the rest of the stuff Kev and Johnny spend all their waking free hours doing or else they wouldn't be doing it.  *takes a deep breeath* alright that's all for now....ya know I think this is the longest post I've ever made.  Kudos for me :cool:

Wrong. Logic dictates that if there's a car lot on RED, meaning it couldn't get itself the cash to get setup anywhere better, it wouly have cars that at least -SOME- RED'ers could afford. And with the ambient messages about cars, and the fact there are roads, means that if the code was complete, more players, including the street trash, would have cars.
And your character doesn't have a car because there's no real dealership for him to go to, not because they are that fucking expensive. Think about it.

Quote: from Lotus on 12:42 am on June 20, 2003[br]Wrong. Logic dictates that if there's a car lot on RED, meaning it couldn't get itself the cash to get setup anywhere better

Not necessarily. Not if, in fact, the car lot was in fact a thin attempt at hiding illegal business. Which would get stamped out elsewhere.

I can think of one character who had over a million on their credchip long ago when I took a peek at it, surely they could have relocated themselves elsewhere, but didn't. Logic dictates that they would - unless they make more money doing other things by staying on Red.

And 100k is not 'fucking expensive', it's 5000 USD. That's cheap. Y'all is just used to making peanuts. I'm sure some NPCs that don't really exits have cars that don't really exist, but also have more money than you (which also doesn't really exist).

Now, consider that Red contains about 60 million of the 65 million supposedly in Withmore. That means there are plenty of landlords out there pulling in 10-30k a week. How about management at the various factories that are supposed to ambiently be on Red? Shop owners? There must be at least two or twenty million ambient  NPCs with very large assloads of cash.

As for the fact that there are roads on Red, you forget that Withmore wasn't always a hellhole. In fact, not until 2050. It was intended to be a nice clean corporate city. Whoops, they goofed.

Admins. are becoming bored with the game.

I'm not bored. I'm frustrated. And what's more I can't even voice my frustration properly because of IC/OOC and admin/non-admin rules.

Sufficent to say I'm disenchanted with some of the things that have happened recently. And I'll be the first to admit that I'm also in some ways responsible for them… as responsible as anyone/everyone else is.

I am not, however, bored.

-Kevlar

(Edited by Kevlar at 10:54 pm on June 19, 2003)

I�ve been here as a player for a year+, sometimes, even recently as a rather mediocre player, bumbling my way around  RP, learning what MOO�s, MUD�s, NPC�s and twinks are, learning a lot about what CP is and what CP �can- be. And of course, learning about that mental IC/OOC line and how quickly, easily and sometimes unintentionally (Yes. I did say unintentionally) it�s crossed.

I better have a point for once you say? I�m wordy, I try vainly to write so I won't be misinterpreted, and I don�t have quick, bullet form points to be eyeballed. I wish i did, but i don�t feel the need to apologize about such things right now.

So this �stalemate� Lotus brings up, has such negative associations that I feel the automatic �Us� vs. �Them� star-wars defense missiles have been launched in the background. Two sides, battling it out, neither winning. When for all intents and purposes it�s not like that.  Or for fuck�s sakes, it �shouldn�t- be! It�s a bunch of people, players, coders, admins, GM/player alts who SHOULD be trying to work together to create a project. A dash of collaborative writing, post-prozac character study, midway ride, and mathematical marvel.

What the hell ever. Cobbled together �community� with its highs and lows?

But in the end it�s Johnny�s MOO. Johnny�s MOO in beta. For better or worse. And as soon as something like that is opened to the hordes, or at this junction, trickle of strangers� it�s no longer one person�s to nurture� Both of which are at the root of -some- problems�

This thing is the collective efforts of a lot of people, no matter how small, trying to construct something enjoyable �as they go along. No one�s being forced to work/play on SD yeah? *eyes*  As players, the owner of the MOO is allowing us here. Bless �im. We�d be annoyed if the place was suddenly shut down to work on the code� Even though it could be in the best interests of the MOO structure itself.

What SD is suffering from isn�t really a stalemate then, but seems to be stagnation and trying to please two different sets of criteria with limited resources and lots of mewling mouths to feed. -Everyone- knows there are recent and ancient problems, even if we can�t seem to agree on what they are and no one can agree on what to do about them.

I�ve had an admin apologies to me fairly recently about the lack of GM�s around. This surprised me but not because an admin apologized. For the most part, I�ve had very decent, helpful and polite, (if slightly aloof) interactions with the admins. I blame the aloofness on my online self more so then any of the admins.  Maybe I was surprised because this small action showed me that admins �are- aware that the lack of committed GM�s is a pressing problem. I mean, it�s not like it�s as simple as putting up a �help wanted� sign.  And what do you do if the only help you have isn�t, for whatever reasons, working out as needed�

A few of the problems are something that only time can solve, this place is, as has been said, in beta testing. It might be in beta testing for it�s entire existence… who knows! It�s not -really- important. We�re aware that things don�t work, things are being reworked, things are simply theories and potentials.

By the way, I think THAT is why you can�t compare SD to CS. One still has a sprawling shell of scaffolding.

Players �are- aware of the fact it�s beta and learn to deal with it. Like everyone, i'd�LOVE- to see cyberware happen. I�d love to see the combat code fixed. All the wonderful coded toys to play with. But, they don�t exist. I deal, I�ve let myself be frustrated recently as well. I've found myself even bitching. None of you know me enough, but i don't -bitch-. Not pointlessly (I only ramble that way) So things just get worse when people are frustrated�

Hrm, stagnation and frustration need drastic actions? (I�m aware of the lack of GM�s as I write this. And painfully aware of my ignorance of the code. But I�m going to write it anyways.)

The temporary disabeling of the combat code for PCs and NPCs alike�

-That�s- my main thought for tonight. I will explain further at another time.

I just want people to �think- about what they see as problems with the MOO and what the want -from- the MOO (added after reading Aikao's post) and what something as drastic and odd as that could do, before they respond with a �you have no idea what your talking about you silly twit� post. That�s all I ask. And I rarely ask for anything. Other then nifty cameras ;)

Tis all.

Look. Capitals. What -does- this mean?

Quote: from Lotus on 1:42 pm on June 19, 2003[br]Wrong. Logic dictates that if there's a car lot on RED, meaning it couldn't get itself the cash to get setup anywhere better…

The stories I could tell… ;)

That aside, two other things I've read in this thread stand out for immediate comment (as opposed to a long diatribe about every aspect covered in the thread...)

Both, funnily enough, refer to CS and I guess were spawned by my initial comparison in another thread.

First, Murphy's (and others) comments about comparing SD to CS and SD aiming to be more like CS. My comparison was simply out of convenience and similarity. Both are MOO's, both are cyberpunk, both share numerous links via admin, players and inspirations (past, present and yet to come). In raw M* terms, both are similar in the level of IC/OOC interaction they permit, the level of RP the /aim/ to support and general game dynamic they exist in. On this basis I think it's fair to use CS as an -initial- measuring post for the kind of player base and connectivity SD -should- be able to achieve. Beyond that, they are two -very- different games with very different "personalities". Think of them more as distant cousins than immediate siblings. The last thing SD ever aimed to be was TOO like CS and I think I can safely presume that hasn't changed.

Secondly, Bias' (and to some degree, Johnny's) comments about SD being incomplete as compared to CS. SD bears the legacy of many coders, some less proficient than others and for all that may not be a good thing, I'd openly suggest it's the unavoidable nature of the beast. Looking at practically every commercial MMORPG on the market at the moment, I think it's possible to see symptoms of the exact same issue. Layers of constantly evolving code being handled by numerous people around a complex framework with a -huge- diversity of potential interactions. Coders always seem determined to argue with me on this concept, but I think the evidence present in -huge- commercial M* ventures more than speaks for itself. Bugs, constant "fixes of fixes of fixes of fixes", nerfing, game "balancing"... SD's code base simply has the same problems as every other code-heavy M* out there, from CS to Evercrack.

CS is no more "complete" than SD. Infact, a very extensive debate has been raging on the CS forums recently (with wide spread admin support) about the idea of "rebuilding" the games mechanics. While opinions have been widely varied, there has been a constant opinion that CS's code has serious problems and drastic action is needed to fix them. Total resets (wiping -every- character) combined with a complete recode of -vast- parts of the MOO have been suggested. M* code is a constantly evolving beast and CS has no less scaffolding (or duct tape, spit and blind faith) holding it together than SD.

And finally, I have to disagree with Johnny's notion that SD was "opened" too early. If you wait for the perfect moment, no M* would ever open and they'd live in eternal closed beta. Caution ne'er won fair maiden. The presence of players in the creative process adds -immeasurable- content and depth to the game, not to mention huge motivation for the admin's work.

A MOO is FAR more than the sum of it's code.

Fair comment, but one could fairly argue that SD is -STILL- in beta and yet is infinately more advanced, feature loaded and "complete" than almost every post-beta M* out there.

Infact, not only is that the case now, but has been the case for at least a couple of years.

Come to think of it, could that OPEN BETA statement on the login screen be costing the MOO players? Do -some- turn away or give the MOO a little less leeway before disconnecting having taken that statement into consideration? Maybe, maybe not, but worth considering.

I think you worry too much about cyberware. While it'd be a nice feature it's by no means an essential feature, as Murphy already pointed out.

But yes, starting a-fresh armed with the knowledge and experience is/would be a wonderful thing. I don't think that's any kind of answer though, in time you'd just find yourself facing a fresh set of problems and the same "start over" dilema.

For all it's inherited problems, a game as established as SD has far too much value to even consider throwing away… I hope?

I don't have any plans to pull a 'Red Horizons' on anyone here. SD's code isn't obfuscated nearly enough to warrant that.

I'm perfectly content to continue growing the MOO instead of designing it from the beginning.

Quote: from Lotus on 1:10 am on June 21, 2003[br]Cyberware, etc….necessary? Of course not. Very little is 'necessary'.
But, I guaruntee, 100%, no questions asked, that if we had cyberware/more/available/integrated (happy now?) vehicles/the matrix/etc...we WOULD have more players, there would be MORE actual RP'ing going on and more people would be having FUN.
No-one can argue that.

I can, and do. Just because you say it's so, doesn't make it true.

You've made some sense recently, but as of this post I'm afraid it's time to return to…

:knob:

Attitude.

That's the glue that binds all the other thematic elements of CP.

Technology without attitude, is just sci fi.

Greedy corporations with out the attitude from people who must rebel against it, is just our current society.

The matrix, without attitude is just a playground for people with decks.

Cyberware, without attitude is just an expensive toy.

Attitude defines the anti-hero.

Attitude makes the martyr, and causes others to follow the cause.

Attitude makes cyberpunk, Cyberpunk.

If players are bored or feel the game needs to be spiced up, do something about it.

Create a grudge
Lie
Cheat
Lie some more
Steal
Lie some more
Make friends
Screw those friends over
Lie more
Make new friends
Tell people a guy you know just got fired from corp x because he use three sheets of TP after taking a shit.
Insist that Bob tried to screw some girl you're screwing on the side.
Lie more
Incite riot and rebellion
Repeat any and all of the above as needed.

One of my characters created a grudge against another character out of thin air. �Absolutely -no- basis in fact.

It got to the point, with my character doing nothing more than talking negatively about this other character that …
People started taking sides without being asked to.
My character received threats
I hired someone to rough the guy up ..

In other words, a player created plot. �Why?

I had an attitude.
I created a grudge.
I lied.
I made some new friends.
I lost some friends.

And in the end, I and several others, had some great RP from it.

Could I have died? �Absolutely. �Would it have been the end of the world? �Nope. �Do my stats/skills measure up to those who would have come to kill me? �Nope. �Did it bother me any? �Nope. �Why?

Because -I- decided the character didn't like someone, and it was in his character to act in this manner.

If you're so afraid of your character dying that you refuse to put him/her in a perilous situation now and again, CP in not the genre for you to be RPing. �CP is inherantly dangerous.

Now, if it's not in your character's manner to be ...

Mean
Rotten
Nasty
Two Faced
Sneaky
Conniving
Treacherous
Greedy
Ambitious

..or some combination thereof, then that person honestly wouldn't last long in Whitmore because no matter where you go, it's very much a dog eat dog world, and the higher up you go, the more dog eat dog it gets.

You need a reason to have an attitude? �Think about it.

People on Red are the bottom of the food chain, plain and simple, the cards are stacked against you, and the man is actively trying to keep you down. �Are you gonna live your life like that?

Are you really gonna let some fucktard in corp y make a product that killed your husband/wife/gf/bf when it malfunctioned and exploded?

Are you going to stand by idly while the Judges carry out sentance after sentence on Red when you -know- the person was innocent?

What about those rumors you heard about Bob Screwhead who wants to carve out some turf in front of where you live. �Do you really want to pay tax to him just to walk in your front door?

If you live on Red, and answered yes to any of the above, you better be a corpie moving up to Gold at the first oppertunity, otherwise, you're cannon fodder for the ambitious punks who answered no to all of them.

And if you're a corpie type, are you really gonna let those unwashed, uneducated, slimey, miserable little piss-ant insignificant bastards tell you what to do? �They're nothing but animals, right?

If all else fails and you're still stuck for motivation, my suggestion is this:

If you are bored and unmotivated, ask yourself, what is your character's motivation to stay alive? �Why does he/she still roam the Earth? �What makes them go on, day after day and not jump off the tallest building they can get to the roof of?

Once you figure that out, go get what you want, and then come up with something else to go after.

If you need help, ask a GM. �Any of us will be more than willing to help you by offering advise and suggestions. �You may not like what we have to say, but hey, this is Cyberpunk after all.

So quit readin this, get some attitude and make some shit happen. �Everyone will thank you for it. ;)

Hell, I feel repressed by the system -AND- I have ants in my fuckin hair.

-Iga