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Player help

Seeing as how the Player Appreciation topic has turned into the lovefest it is, how about some help for the rest of us.

I'm sure we would all agree that some objective observations from other players could only help, and I think most of us are grown up enough to be able to take some constructive criticism, and I'm sure we can all do this without feeling the need to flame anyone.

As such, I'll offer Max up for scrutiny.  Tell me what I can do to make him more .. realistic/believable .., and if it fits with the character, I'll be more than happy to apply it.

People don't know, what they don't know.

Hey, now, there's nothing wrong with love afterall love is the answer, all you need is love, and there is even a love train you can get on board.


That said, I'm not sure that everyone's idea of a character would match with their player's concept or idea of them. Like I'd say Timmy should be less pervy, but his player might like him drooling over breasts and pictures of naked lesbians.

But since you offer up Max….uhm...I think he should be more cocky. Heh.

I think, collectively, every character in the game needs to grow a set and stop mincing about.


Well..I'm not going to talk about max, or tash or any other player in particular. Let's talk about generalities.

The way I see it, the dome goes like this: Players Vs. World. Meaning that everybody is friends ICly and they all hate NPC's. I haven't seen good conflict come out of the player base since Moss/Luc/Nic. It's ok to hate the gangs or corporations, but what if I removed all the NPC's in the game aside from the bartenders and doctors? Where would you be? Living in some 1960's hippie love fest where everybody is your brother, or at least something to that effect.

Don't get me wrong, even in cyberpunk people have friends, hell without them, we'd all be shooting each other in the streets, (which I wouldn't mind seeing.) But, the basis of any good book is conflict, unless it's doctor Suess. More using, more abusing, more of a bit of everything, less friendliness.

Like King said, grow a set. See somebody wearing white before spring? Kick'em in the face. You know that character that tells your character EVERYTHING, extort him/her for all they got, or reveal info. Example: Player A always tells Player B how much they hate Lucifer, Player B doesn't really like Lucifer, but Player A has something or knows something that Player B needs. Player B says to Player A, give me that Xo3 or you're gonna die. Player A refuses, Player B goes to Lucifer to give him the info about a plot to kill him in exchange for some gear, or protection or hookers. What ever!

Conflict. Need more Conflict!

I would like to get your opinions about my character Xee Thot. Any suggestion will be happly studied.

Cheers

Xee is very formal… I haven't gotten to know him yet but it strikes me that some of his mannerisms are somewhat peculiar.

That's not even a criticism; it's an observation, as I do not dare to assume whether you do this intentionally or not.  But even if it's intentional, I hope the Dome hammers it out of him.  Let's see him get rough and tough.  Maybe a couple friends dying, or threats on his life... mwahahaha. That should do it... yes.

Feel free to toss in any observations or advice about Trancer.
I'm just a curious person. :)
I never thought of non criminal conflict *beats himself with a stick*

Finnsters right…doesn't happen often so give him a hand *claps*

But yeah, conflict rules!

Quote: from Tylissa on 3:56 pm on Oct. 2, 2002[br]Xee is very formal… I haven't gotten to know him yet but it strikes me that some of his mannerisms are somewhat peculiar.

That's not even a criticism; it's an observation, as I do not dare to assume whether you do this intentionally or not. �But even if it's intentional, I hope the Dome hammers it out of him. �Let's see him get rough and tough. �Maybe a couple friends dying, or threats on his life... mwahahaha. That should do it... yes.

It's only with the girls… :wink: He's got this casanova thing going around as he isnt all that good looking. And thanx for the observation.

I have a general "criticism" for ya.. :)


Where are all the F-in' corpies?!?! I see -one- in-game as of right now.. And hats off to her, because we've been needing them.

I know, I know, this is CP and we all want to be the bad-ass criminal sons-of-bitches that roam RED and carry guns and all of that good stuff. But people! There are appeals to being a corpie, too! Like the most obvious: MONEY! And with money comes corporate and WJF pull, and so on and so forth! And who says you can't have an Mk23-s hidden underneath that suit jacket?

You wanna talk about conflict? That's one of the most basic, obvious conflicts in the game. It -can- be made into one of the most fun, too.. Mouthy, holier-than-thou corpie Bob gets to spout off remarks over SIC, condemning all the chummers down on RED. That not only creates a direct conflict between Bob and Joe the Chummer, but it also can create conflict (and jobs!) for other characters. Bob finds out that Joe is Pumpkin on SIC by paying Ed the chummer 5k (pennies, for a corpie). Then, he sends Dan the CorpSec guy after Joe, creating yet another conflict. Not to mention Dan, Ed, Bob, and Joe's friends, who can all enter into it too..  This would increase money exchange, gear exchange, and conflict..

Just a thought.

Carrie/Des

You mean turn over with real characters instead of ganger NPCs, because we've got loads of that.
Not to be snide, but Des, you'd probably just buy the Corpie a clone and pat him on the head. :P

Conflict is a beautiful thing, and it doesn't mean 'combat'. Doesn't have to end there. Nic and Luc have enjoyed one of the longest running and most…interesting hatreds ever. As far as I am concerned, it's still there untill I see a corpse or two of Luc. But Nic and Luc hardly ever physically went at it. And when they did, Nic bit the dust. See, that's how you do it. You don't hide and scrape about in the shadows and moan about boredome and inability to do anything because 'your stats are too low' or 'his stats are too high'.

I -KNEW- going into a fight with Luc that Nic faced a 95% chance of death. And I still did it because that's what Nic would do. See what I'm saying here? Be the character, not the stats. This is why I say stats are irrelivant. They mean nothing to playing the game untill the very final motions of things. Stats are like...filler.

I find the player base in general quite stat-oriented.

...damn...I lost my train of thought here...what was I saying?

Oh, yes. Conflict. I'll keep using Nic/Luc as an example because I am most intimate with it. Nic and Luc. Who here saw them in the same room together? Like at the Drome. How many of you out there toss spiteful commentary and vile words/actions/ect at eachother like those two did? Not bloody many. Because you are all for some twisted reason friends. Like, I know Nic has screwed people over many times in the past, but they always seem to re-become friendly again. I milk that like a motherfucker. In the past I've totally betrayed people, been caught, and a week later all is cool again. (Good thing I put all that UE into Charisma eh? Seems like the code works and manipulates the people puppeting the players.) All of you out there should have people you hate. Yet you all chum about together. I've even heard people say 'I don't like to kill other players, or perm them, it's bad for RP.'

WHat the -FUCK- is that? Death is the best -PART- of RP. Especially when it is the death of an established character. That's a beautiful thing, to have a story end in a bitter horrid way, like say, your girlfriend stabbing you in the back to get your gear to pay off the mobsters that she owes 50k in drug money too. THATS BEAUTY. Or better yet, offing that fucking twit who said he'd get you a job then disappeared. Or that bitch who was a total cunt to you at the bar every single night for a month and you just -HATE- her so you just set her up or take her out when the profit is there, or when you are bored.

It's fine to kill. It's fine to perm. But do it with style! Do it with flare! Do it like it should be done in Cyberpunk.

It's also fun to dick over and completely humiliate. I've had 3-5 plans in my head for really -CREWL- ways to mess with Lucifer. Like nasty. One involved a SIC blocked room, a katana, a medpak, and the removal of limbs. Another involved the complete distruction of TERRA. Like, totally discredited and closed and ended. Because it's not enough to kill Luc for Nic. Oh hell no. Luc has to be totally and utterly defeated mentaly, emotionally, physically, and socially. THAT'S what it is about. Death isn't ever enough, because you can just clone. It's all about fucking someone over so bad that you think they are toast.

And of course, you feel all puffed up over it. So you think they are defeated, and you let them live so you have something to gloat at. And then a few months down the road they pop back up and fuck you over. And they perm you because they are just a bit smarter in the long run. Or perhaps not. Perhaps it becomes a twisted fued that lasts years. *cough*

Get what I am saying?

You don't have to -hate- everyone, you don't need to randomly pick someone and say, 'I hate you now'. You base it on how things flow in the game, and you -DAMN WELL HOLD A FUCKING GRUDGE-

And you damn well sell your mother, daughter, son, father, brother, chummer, friend, collegue, associate, employer, ect. out for money. GREED PEOPLE!

GREED! GREED GREED!

It's all about the Chyen. THE CHYEN!

The dome has no Gods. It has no real justice. It has no fair play. It has no morales. All it really has is a hell of a lotta greed. And sex.

/rant

*stands and applauds*
Bravisimo, bravisimo!

I completely, completely agree.

I won't go into IC detail of course, but I did something a bit back along the lines of screwing someone over, and felt like I was getting into the game, really, for the first time.

Great rant Nic, great rant.

/praise

Hey Nic you know you sound like a broken record and no offense but you've got what like four years of UE to back you up not to mention like three freaking boatloads of chyen so its kind of hard I'm sure for the new players who can't even successfully pickpocket characters that are a few weeks old to agree with you.


Yeah, you were right that people are too nice and that people don't want to run around killing other player characters. But for most of them they see that as being considerate. No one wants to have to crank out a new character every single month.  No one wants to have to spend the free time they have for SD constantly scrounging up money for yet another clone. And yes maybe I've not had to scrounge up money in a while for my character and maybe I've not had to go through clones like some others have, but I still listen and hear their complaints and try to see where they are coming from. I've played a lot of RPGs in my time many of them in different genres, some in the same, and from what I've seen new characters coming out of chargen in SD are some of the weakest around.

Backstabbing and hatred can be fun. I don't think I'm giving away any IC secret when I say that Tash hates Nic and has for a while, because as you put it you've used him to screw people over. But don't just assume because someone is polite to your face that they like you. I wouldn't even assume that in the real world.  Keeping with Nic as an example - new, and younger characters are going to be nice to him because he's got as I stated above shitloads of UE behind him and boatloads of money.  Which is the exact same reason everyone was nice to Luc. Its not because he was a hip swinging guy - no offense meant to the player - but he sure didn't act like he had any charisma at all.


As for Des' request for corpies I'd say there needs to be more incentive to play one. Right now the player base barely supports Tylissa and she's only a corpie by trade not by lifestyle or where she lives. To really support true corpies that live and breathe on gold and green (and someday blue) the attitude of the player base needs to change. I've said it before and I'll say it again cyberpunk is not just about the antagonism between corpies and non-corpies there are so many many more things that can be done.  Why hasn't anyone explored the hatreds between the regular people on red and the mutated canmibals in the park? Or tried to join the already existing gangs and fight against the other one? Anything could be done. Just don't think that the only possibility  is corpies versus everyone else. Go and read that website on cyberpunk movies. Read the essays on the movies, they give some great ideas for things to do. Don't just assume nothing can be done that you can only go and run packages for Bruce and sit in the Drome and hide from gangers. Come up with an idea and run it by a GM that's what they're there for. Yes the game is being BETA tested still but that doesn't mean the roleplay has to suffer or be stagnant.  No one was standing beside Tash holding a gun to people's heads and saying "Buy her clothes or else." Long before she got the job at Josephine's she was selling her clothes and most everyone was wearing them. There are niches out there for people to find and fit into. Make your own roleplay and make your character go after things.

I take my hat off to Xee, because I think his player did a great job with pushing the map and going out there and getting people to submit advertisements for it and selling it to people.  SD could do with a few more players with drive and ambition like his.

I'm going to shut up now and let people poke and prod my posting.

So much, so much, where to begin?

Conflict:

Unfortunately, at least as of late, conflict has come down, (at least as far as Max as been on the recieving end), to combat.  Why?  Because killing someone (permenantly)  ends the conflict.  Case closed, game over, do not pass go, do not collect your $200.00, if I kill you, I -win-. When people begin to understand this is not a game you can -win- the conflict will change and combat will no longer be the big component of it, that it is.  And combat comes down to stats, and gear (which comes down to chyen).  The time Max has spent in the dome don't mean squat in terms of ability to defend himself from most other 'combat' oriented PCs (human controlled or otherwise) who have been here longer than he has.  He doesn't have the stats, and he doesn't have the chyen to afford the gear he needs to help bridge the gap.  It's a simple fact that has been proven time and time again.  And when he did start to get the gear, what happened?  A char identified that he had it, and killed him for it.  Bravo!  That's the way it should be done!  Howver, in the 2-3 months since that has happened, Max has not had the opportunity to even -think- about replacing it.  Why?  read on!

I miss Moss, and to a (much) lesser extent, Luc.  Yes, I actually said that.  But not because of who they were, but because of -how- they (usually) were.

Moss never once killed Max, he didn't have to.  There are -far- worse things to do to someone than to simply kill them.  Which is worse?  Getting killed and re-cloning, or wishing you -were- dead and -couldn't- re-clone?  

I've tried to learn from these people, and have tried to find -non combat- ways to generate conflict.  By all rights, Max should have killed 2 newer characters this past week.  Why?  Because leaving them alive (and in the process opening a -huge- potential for conflict)  could be very bad to his long term health.  Was I true to the character there?  Nope.  But this is, after all, a game.  I don't have a problem killing someone, as long as it's the IC thing to do to be true to the character, I feel I've given them a good RP session, and they're not a completely new char, both of these char, IMO, were pretty new.  And besides, leaving them alive, opens up conflict for later!

And for the love of whoever, please people, don't let bygones be bygones .. if someone pissed you off, do something about it!  Max knows IC who several of the people who have killed him are, human controlled PC and otherwise.  He's holding that grudge, if an opportunity presented itself before he figured out how to complete his revenge, there would be no hesitation.  The offending character would be dead.  Would anyone know it's Max who did it?  Unless someone saw him, nope.  It's just not his style.  Is that CP, no, it's not.  But it's Max.

Death and Perming:

Ok, here's where it gets muddy.  I spend, as do many players, a lot of time playing my character.  Max, has been on the dome a bit more than 6 months, and that's squat compared to many of the older characters.  He has not been permed by their good grace.  They know it, and I know it, just as the newer characters have not been permed by my (and other characters) good grace.

Why?  I think the answer is different for everyone, but as for me, I like to play a character for a while, let him, or her, develop, and grow.  To me, RP, especially here, is like a novel.  It's a story that we are writing as it happens.  Plot, character development, scene, and all the rest of the pieces that make a good story must be there for the story (RP) to be good.  And it's damn hard to develop a character, if he or she has an average  life expectancy for a month or two.  Yes, 'The Dome' is also a story, filled with the trivial and not so trivial lives of it's residents.  I wanna be a good cyberpunk.  I don't want to be not so trivial.

The way things are now, I don't want Max permed, unless for some reason -I- choose it, in which case I'll contact every admin and GM I can and see if we can come up with some spectacular, RP intensive way of doing it involving drugs and guns and women and firetrucks and explosives and .. well, you get the idea. Yeah, explosives .. heh.  Just like admin don't want us running around destroying the stuff they slaved over to write and code (thank you again), I don't want someone perming a character I've put so much time and effort into, unless, there is a payoff for me.  And that payoff, is great RP.

While we're on the subject of death - clones:

Either make 'em dirt cheap, or not at all. All making a clone 5k does, is make it just another hoop for a newer char to jump through just to survive.  If I'm a new character and I gotta save 5k to get a clone, I'm gonna run for Bruce, and hide in the cheapest cube I can get until my life is garunteed should I walk into a bar, someone not like the way I look and decide to kill me.  Why?  Because I don't want to die. This tends to kill RP as people tend to hide in their cubes and horde what they have.

On the other hand, maybe I want to run a whole bunch of different types of characters, each living only a short time.  Much more fun in the short term, but -non combat- conflict doesn't get much of a chance to develop.

A blend of both types, is needed.  And the characters that are older, and invincible to the newer characters need to be able to help then new ones.  Give them criminal jobs

Or maybe that should be the province of the NPCs .. giving the jobs, dealing out the chyen, keeping things moving .. hmmm … an @idea is forming here ...

Corpies:

A staple of CP (at least -my- version of CP and remember, everyone's is a bit different) is the haves vs the have-nots.  In my eyes, that's what drives conflict, or at the very least, starts it.  Corpies are the usual representation of the 'haves'.  I'd love to play a corpie.  Never did that before.  Only problem is, other than shooting their mouth off (and most likely getting permd), given the current state of the game (being in BETA) there's not a whole lot to RP.  I'd love to get together 3 or 4 players who all work for a corp or two, or three ... and have them put together a team (of PCs) to do stuff!  Start trouble in the Drome, frame a PC for the murder (the team comitted) of some hastily created non player controlled character, while they're sitting in some bar that costs 5k just to walk in laughing their ass off about it.  It raises the possibilities endlessly.  However, the perks of being a corpie, just are not there, that I've seen.  There's no one to drive me around, no glitzy apartment, nothing to really seperate me, as a corpie, from the scum on the streets.

To me, no offence to the player, Ty does not seem like a corpie. Give her a posh pad on Green or Gold, a big fat paycheck, access to things that other players can't get (certain clothes, jewelry, electronics .. whatever), things like that, things that set the scene.  Now she's gettin to be a corpie.

As long as I'm here, a few other things ...

Speed:

CP should be fast.  Lightning fast.  Make 20k in the morning, lose 30k in the afternoon, and have to do something desperate just so you're not sleeping on the streets that night.  Let the chyen flow freely, into, and out of the pockets!  I don't mind losing a ton of stuff as long as I have a realistic potential to get something else instead!

Hoarding:

Anyone who hoards gear, real gear like firarms and armor and stuff that actually costs some real chyen, should have their locker/cube/whatever broken into regularly.  Be free with the stuff, holding onto it won't help you if you need to call in a favor.  Start a gang and outfit them and have them go out and make -you- some chyen!

Ambient population:

Let us mug them.  Let them mug us ..

Mug <population> would be a great way to generate a few extra chyen, increase the criminal feel and bring the population closer to the players.  Of course, you could be walking down the street and see the message

"Is that your wallet that punk with the rainbow mowhawk has in his hand as he runs down the street?"

Limit it .. 3 times a day, 50 chyen a pop max .. any more and you risk WJF for -someone- getting a call about you.  Hmmm, maybe I'll @idea that ....

Yeah, I rambled a bit ..

There's more .. -so- much more.  But this has been long enough.

You can't expect comflict where there aren't realistic amounts of potential conflict.

I think the gun situation is really unbalanced. I think you should find rusty ol AK's at the Bansuporu market. I think handguns should be especially accessible in the Mix. I mean, coming across bullet-riddled corpses walking down the street is almost as common as weather in the CP universe. I've been around for 4 months and don't even know where to get one. Granted, my char isn't the gun-type and such, but I think they should be more prevalent. Yes, -good- guns should be damn expensive and such, but in Neuromancer we watched Case get a handgun for a rather small amount of cash. You'd see some conflict. Sometimes when I see established or semi-established PC's get into fist-fights with gangers, I almost laugh because there should be bullets flying.

Stats…
Stats..shouldn't be a focus. But, I'm sorry to burst the bubble...THEY ARE. I don't care who it is. And yes, 90% of the players will ignore them, and do what their character would do and RP as they should..but it does get aggravating. I don't have a solution. If you lessen the input of stats into results, where's the pay-off for being established?  I just don't have a solution. But everyone should face the fact, and I don't like it, but stats are a big factor whether most will admit it or not. Yeah, we're good for the most part about sticking to RP more than stats, but nonetheless...

Playerbase is where a lot of problems come from, and it's the one problem Admins just can't fix with a bit of code.
Without enough players, there aren't enough fillers for the various 'sides' ...corpies/deckers/etc. And to balance that, the Admins take out their own valued time to puppet NPC's to try and lower that input.

But that all comes with being in Beta...as Kevlar gets the Matrix going ( :O) ) and Johnny gets cybernetics out, things will definately get better.

I know I wasn't really thinking about stats when I punched Max.  Hiron was pissed (as was I) that he woke up and someone wanted money, when he barely had enough for a drink.  So, when Max said it was either the money, or Max would hunt me down, I figured, shit, no need for that and just threw down right there.  Fortunatly, I did live throught this incident, though I still have to pay the money.  There conflict and Hiron is gonna hold a grudge against Max, though not a very big one since I kind of owe him my life…twice.
Let it be stated that I'm not telling anyone how to play their character.

But Hiron should damn well hold a huge grudge and be pissed!

Hold the grudge, keep the anger, let it build, let it burn … never -ever- forget.

And when you get the chance to do it to someone else, take it!

Max didn't kill you, purposely.  Now, you see why.  And for the record, Hiron is -not- one of the two characters previously mentioned that Max -should- have killed.

Just remember, you make more chyen/gear/RP/fun from the living, than you do from the dead.

I'm not so worried about Max right now, there are others I'd rather take care of first.  Besides, Max hasn't done that much against me.  I heard someone say that the going rate for what he did is 1500 chyen, which means Hiron got a discount.  It was more that I was really pissed of at the moment.  Besides, as Hiron sees it (whether or not it's true), Max seems to have a lot of influence and he may get more from staying on good terms with Max than from killing him.
Since my character has been mentioned in reference to corpie ness, or lack thereof, let me put my two cents in.  This is a slight problem that has been discussed before. Living a life on Gold or Green gets boring! And even Ty's corpie wages aren't enough to easily afford accommodations on Green anyway.

It's true that there need to be more incentives, more for corpies to do. Otherwise it's too hard to play someone of that caliber… you just have to sit up there by yourself talking to imaginary people as if they're there. I do it sometimes, but... it gets old.

I'm not sure what can be done on this really, and I'm not going to start rambling about Ty because then I'll get into IC information.  Much as I want to respond to your comments, I will forcibly hold myself back. ;)

I imagine that once there are more corpies, be one will be more funner since you can interact with real people and step on them as you climb your way to the top.  Things will get more interesting as the game gets more players, I think.

BTW, nice signiture Ty.

There's some conflict for you.  Damn that sucked.
Hardly 4 years tash. -HARDLY-

In fact, TASH could kill Nic. It's all in Charisma and skills that never get called by code. So fuck you for thinking that it's stats that keep Nic around. I could make a new character tonight and in a few months be running you all around like little kittens. That's because -I- am -THE SHIT-. For some reason you people think that you have to come out of chargen as a hardass. And that you have to strut about and act tough. Or that you have to have some mystical UE level or skill combo to do things effectively, and that's bullshit.

2 and a half years ago was the -VERY FIRST TIME I HAD EVER SEEN OR HEARD OF A MOO- and it was Sindome. I logged in, muddled my way through Char-gen and came out with a character who's stats and skills were completely -FUCKED UP-. And look at that, Nicadeamus is -STILL- alive (though he hardly gets out now, I have things to do in life that keep me off the MOO.)

I've lasted 2 and a half years with Nic. And he's not stale. Why? Because I can -FUCKING PLAY- and I don't bemoan and search for a stat combo to make things work. I -WORKED- my way up from the trenches to where I am at now. So poo-poo on you Tash for saying it has to do with '4 years of UE'. It has everything to do with vision and the ability to learn the environs of the game, and to learn people, and to role play. To get -INTO- the character and do what the char would do.

As to money, I ran Nicadeamus on less money than you get a week Tash. FOR TWO YEARS. I made my chyen count, and I didn't have all the 'designer clothing' and the 'heaps of gear that is -in case of emergency that never comes-'. Up untill six-eight months ago, Nic was -BROKE-. He got -EVICTED- from Kreakon and forced back down to Red because -HE HAD NO MONEY-. Did you ever catch wind of that? No, because I never let on to it and I still managed to sneak off to SHI or Bruce to make ends meet. Or to do up some clothing as a tailor (ya me for getting people to pay 10k for a suit out of material they could have desced themselves, and yay them for paying.) It wasn't untill some Roleplayed evvents occured that Nic came into money. (Find out more ICly if you really give a rip.)

As to guns, why don't you pester the 5-10 players out there holding hordes of shit. Or better yet, pick up a freakin pipe wrench and beat the fuck out of someone. Bug Nic if he's about, he'll gladly track one down for you if you can afford the finders fee. To me it sounds like Lotus is confusing 'Conflict' with 'Combat'.

Max: Yes, killing someone permanently ends the conflict, but have you ever tried to go for a Perm? It's a fucking nightmare and a hell of a lot harder than it sounds. But once its done, it feels great and gives you stories to tell the noobs over a pint at the Drome. And you are right, Moss and Luc were great characters. But the stories they had ended. Some not so fairly as others, but they ended. Know what I'm saying? Neuromancer would suck shit if it was a series of books as long as the 'Wheel of Time' stuff by Robert Jordan. Things die. They need too.

/rant

(sorry tash, you irked me there)

I'm with nic, It's not the stats.  I thought some of my other *coughs* characater(s) Were stale, but they aren't.  I've had more characters than I'd like to admit, but it is the people you know, and how you RP.  I had numerous enemies, and it was hella fun to sit there and yell at em for hours about one comment.  Hella fun.  Power to nic
Obviously, I need to address some of this.


from Nicadeamus on 12:22 am on Oct. 7, 2002[br]Hardly 4 years tash. -HARDLY-

Sorry, I thought Nic was older than that.

In fact, TASH could kill Nic. It's all in Charisma and skills that never get called by code.

Naw, I don't think so. She might be able to leap out of the way a few times, but she's not really a combat-oriented character. The UE has mainly gone into skills like charisma and other non-combat oriented ones.

So fuck you for thinking that it's stats that keep Nic around. I could make a new character tonight and in a few months be running you all around like little kittens. That's because -I- am -THE SHIT-. For some reason you people think that you have to come out of chargen as a hardass. And that you have to strut about and act tough. Or that you have to have some mystical UE level or skill combo to do things effectively, and that's bullshit.

I think that stats are important because the moo is set up to do stat checks for almost everything; are they the end all to be all no. �However, if Bob pickpockets �Randy the Goat Hearder then it checks his stats against Randy's. �Same with if Bob pickpockets Chaim. �Not all stats are combat oriented, yes, I get that. I remember a few months back when Bruce was updated and made so that it is a character's charisma which determines whether or not they can even get a job from him. Right there that makes it a stat issue right out of chargen. 'Have I put enough points into charisma so I can even get work?'

2 and a half years ago was the -VERY FIRST TIME I HAD EVER SEEN OR HEARD OF A MOO- and it was Sindome. I logged in, muddled my way through Char-gen and came out with a character who's stats and skills were completely -FUCKED UP-. And look at that, Nicadeamus is -STILL- alive (though he hardly gets out now, I have things to do in life that keep me off the MOO.)

And I say kudos to you for having him that long, again I apologise for thinking he was older. As of yesterday Tash was a year old and in that one year I did not go through a single clone. Which, proves that it is possible to play a non-combat oriented character and live. And yes, I can see the "buts" coming now - yes she did spend a good deal of that time involved with Moss, but he was not with her constantly and she did get herself into enough scrapes where she could have easily lost a �clone or five or ten. Its about how you play your character and react to a situation.


I've lasted 2 and a half years with Nic. And he's not stale. Why? Because I can -FUCKING PLAY- and I don't bemoan and search for a stat combo to make things work. I -WORKED- my way up from the trenches to where I am at now. So poo-poo on you Tash for saying it has to do with '4 years of UE'. It has everything to do with vision and the ability to learn the environs of the game, and to learn people, and to role play. To get -INTO- the character and do what the char would do. �

I don't believe I said his longevity had to do with his age, and though Nic might not be Tash's favourite person yes he is played well and consistently from what I've seen and heard. I implied that one of the reasons people won't attack him outright - i.e. combat - is that he is an older character and a wealthy one. �Neither of which have anything to do with how he is played, but are rather OOC issues.

As to money, I ran Nicadeamus on less money than you get a week Tash.

3500 if two items of clothing are purchased from Josephine's no more no less. She rarely ever sells clothing on the side anymore. And you should know all about that since its a job she got after Nic quit.

�FOR TWO YEARS. I made my chyen count, and I didn't have all the 'designer clothing' and the 'heaps of gear that is -in case of emergency that never comes-'.

Until recently Tash didn't have any gear at all, despite what others may think. She had quite a lot of clothes, but those were regularly recycled or sold off. Though she did own a neXus dress and a neXus skirt. Everything else was modified clothing. Oh and she carried a butterfly knife and a flashlight with her wherever she went for almost a year. But rarely ever used the flashlight and never used the knife.

Up untill six-eight months ago, Nic was -BROKE-. He got -EVICTED- from Kreakon and forced back down to Red because -HE HAD NO MONEY-. Did you ever catch wind of that? No, because I never let on to it and I still managed to sneak off to SHI or Bruce to make ends meet. Or to do up some clothing as a tailor (ya me for getting people to pay 10k for a suit out of material they could have desced themselves, and yay them for paying.) It wasn't untill some Roleplayed evvents occured that Nic came into money. (Find out more ICly if you really give a rip.)

Tash has been broke, been evicted quite a few times. She moved back and forth between Red and Green and Green and Red two or three times. �Again, you're assuming that I'm saying Nic having money is a bad thing. Like he's some kind of lepper. I know how Nic got his windfall, actually, as does Tash. �Like Nic, Tash's own windfall was unexpected. Despite it though she still lived frugally until recently, but that is another matter. Like stated above all I was saying is that maybe one of the reasons Nic might not see as much conflict as he could is that he has the money. Money equals the ability to pay others to either beat the shit out of someone or for their death, either permanent or clone. And that coupled with his age and the possible belief that maybe he has lots of UE in combat oriented skills - I'm not saying he does, but that people could think he does - might be a reason why older characters with money like Nic and even to a good extent Tash and also Luc don't get attacked verbally and physically as much as they might otherwise.

(sorry tash, you irked me there)

It wasn't intended to be taken personally, though it seems it was and again I apologise.

I tried making this easier to read but it didn't seem to work no matter what I tried, sorry.

(Edited by Tash at 12:59 pm on Oct. 7, 2002)


Nic -

Uhm.. Just in my own defense, I'd like to say that the last damn thing Des would do would be to "buy the corpie a clone and pat him on the head". Thanks.

Up until the fall of ToA, Des was played with the entire -point- being to make the rest of the Dome consider her a really nice person. It was her -intention- to look innocent to everyone on RED, as well as those at WJF and whatnot.

Since then, Des has really let her true colors show, and I think it would be nice, not to mention fair, for you to mention that.

In short: I cut the fucking fluffy bunny's head off and sent it flying into hell.

Thank you.

Carrie/Des

I owned you all.

Really.


Nic's no marshmallow, no matter how often he might claim otherwise.

Des' fluffy bunny costume was splattered with Gunnar's brain, and someone stole it while it was at the cleaners.

I'd like to see an end to this attitude that a lot of people have, that a character is for life, not just for Christmas. Take some big risks, do stupid things. Make enemies rather than friends with those people who're standing around in the Drome. The worst that happens is you have to go through chargen again, and shit, it's not like that's particulalrly laborious.

Make a point of fucking someone's shit up. If someone looks like maybe they're weilding some power, why not try taking a slice of it?

worst that can happen is you fail.


I'm just rambling now.

growing a tiny little set of peanuts and then having too much stuff to deal with on the outside to be able to play with them on SD… *sigh*

NUTS. it's all about the nuts.

(Edited by Bias at 5:42 pm on Oct. 7, 2002)

Of course I'm not a marshmallow!

I'm a smore!

I'll refrain from ranting, regardless of my frustration level at the moment.

Okay. I know Moss didn't get handed his UE/money/personality/influence/weapons/skills/connections/etc on a silver platter served by fluffy bunnies, but…heh, let's face it, it's much easier to say what you say, when your character is/was Moss. Be honest, he didn't really have a lot of competition, especially lately. He was really threatened...he mulled down anyone who came close to touching him, much less take a slice of his power. I'm not saying not to relish being powerful because you obviously did something or other right to get where you are, which I greatly respect because I apparently haven't figured out that equation yet, but it's much easier to tell people to go fuck shit up, backstab, make enemies, leave your cubes, etc, being on the level Moss was. For a lot of players a lot of the time, backstabbing -anyone- means assured death. And I don't care unattached you become to your character(s), doing something simply for RP and knowing you're going to die doesn't really appeal much.

And if it was as simple as leaving your cube, things would be a lot more interesting. I hate to grab reality and pull it down into the spotlight, but there are so few players around that the whole intricate plot of greed and backstabbing doesn't work out, no matter how much we should act like we're in a city of millions. Playing Trancer has left me angrier than a shitting hornet because he can't seem to get/keep anything rolling. I won't post my self-infamous "List" but he's tried shit Trancer wouldn't necessarily really go for just to try and start something going. Ask Tylissa, I've shown her my list. I hate ranting like this because there is no solution I can think of. I'm left wondering WTF everyone went. I don't personally like Lucien/Marco, but he's gone as far as I can tell. I don't want to ask/risk being told where Moss went/what happened with him, but I know he was a staple RP element for many people.
Glad to see Jackson is getting back on, missing him around. Just seems over the past 2 months there's been a very, very subtle spiral of departure. Every 2 weeks or so I suddenly go, "Hey...where the fuck did (person) run off to?"
Basically, I don't want to hear "leave your cube and quit whining."
I wander around all the time, I have a list of things I've tried to get going and they just fizzle before they start.

Again, sorry for ranting when I have no solution to offer, but I'm very frustrated and not leaving his cube or a lack of testicals aren't problems, got it?

Yes, you know this was coming:
/rant

Why's it easier to say that?

You're forgetting that once upon a time,  Moss was fresh out of chargen, weak, unknown, unconnected, broke..all the shit everyone is when they come out of chargen.

Back then, there were other big names around characters who are still around today. It's such a cop out to say "oh it's easy for you to say" No, fuck you, it wasn't easy. I killed, lied, stole and (icly) cheated my way to where Moss wound up, with very little backing from anyone. I locked horns with Devon, Jared, Luc, some of the NPC gangers, I made friends and enemies, and I played smart.

It's everything to do with leaving your cube and growing a set. If you won't do anything, because you're scared of losing your character, then you're in the wrong genre. Cyberpunk is fast, and brutal, and if you live in the Mix, you can't expect to live forever. You want to drag yourself out of the monotony of everyday life:

TAKE SOME FUCKING RISKS.

It you play with low stakes, your returns will be low.

Yeah, the playerbase is quiet right now, but don't blame that for things being quiet. Trouble is, as has always been the way, that people all side with each other. Moss has gone now. There is a huge vacuum in the power structure of the underworld on Red, One player steps up to try fill that hole, and what happens? Everyone falls into line behind them. Yay, way to go guys, let's be really careful, we wouldn't like anything to disrupt the status quo now, would we?

No one on SD is untouchable. No one. If you think someone would kick your ass, bring a friend, bring two friends, but for fucks sake, stop moaning about how you can't do this that or the other. You can do it. You just don't.


Oh, and if you have lists of things to do, and they fizzle before they get started, maybe you're going about it the wrong way. Maybe you're setting your sights too high.

Or, keep doing what you're doing, refusing to accept that responsibility for what happens lies as much on your shoulders as anyone else. Who know, in a year's time, when you've collected mountains of UE and your character's still doing the same things, you'll finally work out where I'm coming from.

ok.. enough about growing a set. i'm pretty sure we've all got that point now.

*looks around* right? right.

now my wondering here is more concerned with say… RP.

yes yes conflict is RP. i get conflict. yey conflict.
goooooo conflict. *waves a giant foam hand around*

*cough*

what i'm getting at, is this, does anyone have any suggestions on our ability to RP, to get across a certain feeeeeeeling while doing everything from grabbing a drink at the drome, walking down the street to back stabbing your bestest friend with a lager?

it's all about feeeeeling and atmosphere... and spelling.

yes yes. and conflict and nuts.

now. any advice on CREATING that CP feeling?

i write.  short stories and prose mostly. not really in a CP style though, more like dyslexic A.D.D. child meets circus music infused add jingle with a dash of cracking graff covered concrete girders ... or something. ok... CPish without the pretty guns maybe? :P

however. in a medium such as an ever evolving and sometimes rather fast moving RP game, i've found it very difficult to create mood. SD being the only RP game i do or have done, since the begining it's been a fun exercise in "what the hell is going on?"

i -think- i've managed to get a tad better at this whole RP thing as time goes by. but *shrug* i could be delusional. :)

i dunno. MOOD! how do players go about creating mood without any referances to nuts?


oh. and what is considered being twinkish. we all try NOT to be. but... yeah. i was just wondering, for my own benifit and others. :)

I agree. I'm tired of people thinking that RP'ing CP is nothing but greed and fighting and subterfuge. What about the billions of masses that aren't involved with all of that? I completely and totally agree with Bias here. There's more to it, with mood, with RP. Good RP and good mood is that 'feeling' Bias spoke of. From the lonely feeling of sitting by yourself at a noodle stand, trying to find some comfort in the warmness of the spiced noodles to the feeling of despair one might feel looking down at RED from a high vantage point, seeing all the chaos from a wide view…there's more to CP than bullets flying and backstabbing your grandmother for 10 chyen. But, the real mood and RP are for the players to create...so why don't we try?
Who's stopping you standing alone at a noodle stand, or looking down on red from a high point?

The mood is all there. It's all in the ambient population, and the descriptions and the weather. Fuck I love the weather in the Dome, yet, most of the time everyone ignores it.

This is what I've been saying again and again and again and again and again. It's up to YOU to make it better. It's YOUR game as much as anyone elses. Yes, Cyberpunk is all about conflict and violence. What you're talking about is ambient, it's setting, it's stuff that already exists. Solitude and feeling desperate and lonely are all well and good, but jesus, the last thing we need is a game full of people who all spend all thier time reflecting on life from a roof top.


What about the billions of masses that aren't involved with all of that?

Hmm, yeah, what about them? They're the ambient population, they get mugged, raped and murdered around us. Try reading the masses of text that fill your screen when you walk from place to place.

You want to play a character who mopes around from day to day, staying out of everything? Then do it.

Really, I don't get what you people are saying. The mood and shit is there. Sindome is fantastically ambient and atmospheric. The mood is there already. If you're broke and wish you weren't. Be pissed off about it icly.


Bias:

Cyberpunk to me has always been about attitude. Style over substance. It's better to fail and look good than to succeed at any cost. Everything is disposable. Everything can be bought and sold. life is less precious than a Rolex watch. Think about it.

Long, flowing and verbose poses don't make you any better a roleplayer than anyone else. They're fun, and they look good, but it's about what you say, and how, and to who that really counts. Stop being so helpful. Be selfish. Be rude, look out for number one, fuck Mr. "Hi I'm new in town, could anyone lend me the train fare and enough chyen to rent a room."
(That doesn't mean you can't still help newbies out and show them the ropes and shit, but don't you don't have to be altruistic, there's a price to pay for everything, remember?)

Tell stories and anecdotes. Things that really happened, or shit you make up as you go along. It's fun to do, fun to watch and helps add that extra little bit of mood. You know, "So, there I was on my way home from the Drome. I'd had a skinful, so it's a bit fuzzy, but I saw these three guys in bright pink neon body suits, carrying what looked like a rolled up old carpet between them, come sprinting out of this alley chased by two fat guys with chainsaws, and a dog with three legs…"

and so on.


I think it's worth taking a whole new perspective on the game from time to time. Stop thinking about yourself as a player, and start thinking about yourself as a GM. This is your world as much as anyone elses. Spin the odd yarn, use the ! emote sometimes to add a drunken brawl, or od'ing junkie in the corner.

Be creative.

Being twinkish is exploiting code in ways it wasn't meant to be used, using ooc info IC, bringing in things that aren't in theme into your RP, using ooc motivation for IC actions, and that includes looking for IC reasons to do something you want to do oocly...

a few examples of the above are spamming commands, like flee, and disarm, and grapple in combat. claiming to have psychic powers and thus can use info from thought bubbles IC....you get the idea.

Hopefully this was helpful. If not, you're more than welcome to burn and die�

:)


P.S.

More testicles are still needed.

P.P.S

Metaphorically of course...


Mood:

CP is fast, and dirty, and gritty, and hard, and life is unfair, and the air you breathe can kill you, and the corporations run the show, and the masses deal with crime, and poverty, and it rains all the time, and feels dark, and smells. �

It's a million people living in a space better suited for 10,000.

It's a huge gap between the haves and the have nots.

It's hustlers on street corners selling you drugs and weapons and whatever.

It's hustlers in bars selling and buying data.

It's advertising in your face 24x7

It's loud pounding music spurring you on, inspiring you to things you wouldn't normally think of.

It's people who have had enough sitting in bars planning the next strike against this corporation, or that corporation.

It's people with cybernetic arms with a built in TV display, and legs that contain a pop up 10mm autopistol and cyberoptics that let you see in the dark, and cybernetic ear implants that let you pick out a whisper in a crowded noisy room, and vat grown muscle grafts, and people cutting up dead bodies to sell off the parts.

It's always hearing sirens in the background.

It's people in back rooms that you can hire to do just about anything, if you have the cash, and if you can find them.

It's a computer network where everything is connected, from your fridge to the big megacorp who just bought the tenement you live in and is giving you three days to vacate so they can demolish it, and people to go in to that network and hack.

It's fighting for rationed food, not being able to get medicine for your sick kid, either because you can't afford it, or because they won't let you into the only part of the city where there is a store that sells it.

It's rebellion, and angst, and pain, and doing whatever it is you have to do to survive and if possible and you're ambitious enough, to thrive.

It's being on the razor sharp cutting edge.

It's style over substance.

It's living fast.

Most likely, it's dying hard, and leaving an ugly corpse when you do.

It's having the coolest look and the latest fashion, even if it means you don't eat for a few days.

Do something that contributes to any of the above, and you're setting the mood.

Oh yeah, twinks ..

What king said .. yep.  That's twinking.

I resign myself to the fact that some people get it (like Moss) and some people just don't. I resign myself to the fact that some people think in a linear fashion rather than a web fashion, so they can't see things the way I do. I resign myself to the fact that some people are hack and slash, and some have finesse.

Cest la Vie.