RE: withmore society

ok, so I feel something needs to be said:

Iga I have the upmost respect for all admins, though you in particular because you have the tendency to tell it like it is, and there are two points from your last post that I want, no NEED to comment on:

(please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong because I am all of the time)

first of all you feel that people bitch too much about the work the admins do, well I have to say DUH, being an admin on a beta game is bound to be a thankless job and though I personally appricate all that has been done (and I'm sure most others do too) since it is in beta there will always be constant, incessant bitching about one thing or another.
    not just because we're in beta, but that is a big part of the reason, others include, but are not limited to:  the diversity of the charcter base, corpies want one thing, murders/theives/various red baddies want another, less violent types e.g. tailors, tattoists, musicians etc. want another, and on and on.  a great example of that is the valuable material worth forum, I'm sure you understand what I'm trying to say here.
so for my part thank you admins thank you all for your hard work, and long hours, but keep working cause there's still alot to do and if  fro whatever reason you don't want to/can't put in those late/long hours then don't be afraid to say so and stop.  but don't jump our cases for being thankless cause you should have seen it coming.  hell I wouldn't and couldn't do what you guys do so I don't.  but I love to reap the benifits–- a kick ass cyberpunk game.  

my other thing:

there may be some charcters that NEED to be retired, I'm not pointing fingers, hell I don't even know if I could, but you know that you know who you are, if you see your charcter's life as that frickin boring, or bad, make a major change in your life (turn on everyone, and everything you currently do, and do something else) or die.  sounds tough, but as I've been told by many a oldbie/admin there's RP to be had, you gotta just make/find it and if you can't make/find it with your charcter than....

I was going to elaborate on this whole thing but this alone is going to get enough people hot at my opinions so I'll stop right here.

I do not share Kevlar's hostile attitude towards complaints and whining. What I do share with him is the extreme dislike of vague criticisms (of which there have been few in the thread that I believe is being discussed here – it'd be nice to have a link to it) that  simply state that X or Y suck. I understand that you may not know a better way. As Jotun said, thats why he isn't admin.

If players don't speak up and let us know, what motivation is to there to address the issue? We've got a lot of requests and projects all being piled on us to do. In my book, the best way to know what needs to be done is to listen to the complaints. I fully understand that we can't please everyone.

Please, do keep discussing the problems you see.

For the record, I see a difference between bitching, legitimate complaints, whining, and constructive criticism.

Contsructive criticism, I request, expect, and appreciate.

Legitimate complaints, I expect and deal with. �It's part of what we do here, and the complaint portion (not always legitimate) is the most common form of feedback we recieve from the players. �I'd prefer each complaint be specific, and accompanied with a proposed solution or at least an idea, see constructive criticism, above.

Whining and bitching, well, let's just say I'm a believer in the 'you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar' theory.

I grossly disagree with Kev's view on it… but that just may be where we are different.

I GMed here for... oh hell, two years almost? I was HEAVILY active for at least a year and a half of that time.

In that time, I got pissed off constantly... but ironically, most of it was with the rest of the admin team, not the players. I may have gotten snappy at some players, but I always took what they said to heart just to make sure they didn't have a valid point.

There is a fine fine line between 'bitching' and 'complaning'. Both of which can be considered constructive critiscism if done in the right manner. My problem with what usually went on was when people held the: 'I'm right or goto hell' attitude. Now, I probably had that myself at some point, but I tried to not be very pushy with it.

I won't deny that certain relationships turned me off to the admin world here, but I can gurantee you it wasn't because of the players.

I remember the 'fluffy bunny' era as we called it, when everyone was friends with everyone. Now we're at the exact extreme... where everyone seems to kill each other. Gotta love switches. ;-)

Okay, I've rambled enough... the admin know my stance on appreciation because I was there with them for two years. ;-)

Let me clarify my statements without the sarcasm or anger.

I get discourged as an administrator when a player who has the means and clearly the ability to role play forsakes these skills and turns to either the game system (code) or game mechanics (admin) for the solution to problems.

A large portion of roleplaying in general is creative problem solving to situations you are presented with.

I can not go into IC details, but staff provide constant opprotunities and chances to do a lot of things in game, and we are -ALWAYS- looking for information from players in how to better the Sindome Experiace. Hence the town hall. Hence the times we pull you out of the game to talk. Hence the times we chatter on helpnet with you about things.

But more and more I am finding that players are turning to staff and saying 'what do I do' and then either getting mad when we say 'figure it out' or they do not listen to our 'hints' and 'suggestions.'

In no way did I ever want players to think that bitching is bad. But frankly, if you are going to bitch and moan about how something unfair happened to you in the game, that's not going to fly with me. (Baring of course a violation of the rules…read @rules today! It will save your IC life some day!)

Everything about cyberpunk is unfair. The majority of the time you have a choice between shitty and death. YOu are luck when the choice is shitty and shittier. And if it's between shitty and mediocre, well fuck my friend, have a beer, cause it was one hell of a good day.

I'm getting off topic, like I always do.

I'll sum it all up in a run-on sentance:

Feel free to bitch, complain, and comment, but if you are moaning about something you can easily deal with yourself in the IC game world, I'm going to feel free to bitch right back at you.