The Law

The Law is an important part of any society. Without law, soceity ceases to exist, and a state of anarchy descends over an area, until those with the biggest teeth, take control,and once more laws are put in place.

The idea of a police force, who take on the role of judge, jury and excecutioner isn't a new one, I mean, I'd be suprised if most people who play this game haven't drawn the parellels between withmore, and the Megacities frm the Judge Dred stories. I love the idea, I always have, I mean, it's martial law, oppression taken past the point where anyone's trying to pretend that you have rights, and more importantly, that anyone gives a shit if your rights, if you have any, are being violated.

That said, I think there are some problems with the law in this game, at the moment. Most notably, that it's far too strong. Yeah, I'm sure many people will take a dim view of me raising this point, especially if you play a judge, or a TERRA agent, and, even more so if you know who my character is, but, hear me out.

I understand perfectly that the WJF are supposed to be a massive, well funded, opressive force. They get snazzy gear and are relatively well paid. Their aim, is to keep order, and basically crush the criminal element.

Trouble is, if they do it, it's not gonna be much of a game anymore, is it?

There's an awful lot of characters working with/for the WJF and TERRA. So, where's all the criminals? PLayer charactrer ones I mean. There are very few of them. Why is that?

I'll tell you why. It's because there's no insentive for people to play character on the wrong side of the law, that's why. There are basically no illegal ways to make money, except by selling illegal good, but, since very few people want to cross the judges, very few people have need for such things.

I can almost hear the people out there saying "oh, but someone might just roleplay someone who's a criminal, for the sake of good roleplay." Yeah? you think? why would they? Most people over the age of 12 don't break laws just for the thrill of breaking laws. Most people do it because it's profitable.

That's what crime is all about, High risk, high yeild. I'm not talking about crimes of passion. Someone killing someone in the heat of an argument, or the like, that's totally different, but professional criminals.

very few people are going to try and mug someone, because, if you try, chances are your victim's gonna call for help using the SIC. So what are you options, kill them before they can, and forgo the potential roleplay there is in that situation? or just wait for a judge to come along and blow your head off?

I guess what I'm saying is, that ina city,where we're led to believe it's a hive of scum and villainy, it has a frighteningly law abiding playerbase, and, yes, I'm well aware that the player characters aren't the only people in the city, there's all those NPC's, and the ambient population of millions. but, it's only the players who matter in this instance.

Do I have a sollution to this? No.

Should I have come up with one before posting this longwinded bitch? Probably.

My point, is that there -needs- to be a criminal element. For there to be a criminal element, you needs to be some insentive for people to cross the line, and join the darkside. If the WJF and TERRA are too succesful, it's going to choke the life out of the game.

Ok, I'm done.

Feel free to point out the reasons I'mwrong now.

By King[Fu] at Mar 27, 2002, 3:04 AM | 0

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I can imagine people snickering behind their monitors now thinking, "Yeah, but you play a goody twoshoes." One of the things that drew me to this genre of roleplay was the harsh realism it was supposed to provide. I loved, and still do, the descriptions of the rooms on the streets of Sindome. But aside from the sniper, that seems to be as far as that realism goes.

There is an overabundance of characters who are working for or with the WJF, and by that I mean officially. No matter where you go in countries or cities, even ones with martial law, the actual amount of people employed by the law is only a small percentage of the population. Perhaps a better way to achieve this would be by putting a cap on how many player characters can be directly employed by either TERRA or the WJF.

Have the cap be a percentage of the player population. The law itself should be a deterent. So should the harsh punishments.

I know that months ago when I first started there was an idea floating around of creating a crime ring. I was really up for that idea, but it seemed to die. I think things like that should be encouraged by admins. I'd like to see more things happening on the streets. More muggings, pickpocketing, extortion.

By Tash at Mar 27, 2002, 3:56 AM | 0

I don't agree with cap. Restricing people like that is something I've never liked.

I don't think what's needed is fewer law types, but more gangsters :P

And that needs something to encourage people to want to do it.

By King[Fu] at Mar 27, 2002, 4:03 AM | 0

And how many law type characters do you think is too many?

By Johnny at Mar 27, 2002, 9:19 AM | 0

No number is too many, as for Too many in game, I disagree, there is just about the right amount….but I remember when it was me and casey, that's it, so theres always going to be fluctuation in the Law Pop, so leave that...no cap

And KingFu is right whatever you wanna call him, there isn't -any- incentive to play a criminal, if your a ganger y ou get killed, if you kill someone you get killed, if you do drugs you get killed.....as far as career criminals go, a fixer is about all you can do to make money

Now to solutions, Maybe huge Drug deals, I'm talkin about the super risky, million shipments of Crack, Heroin, Like huge ass shit....maybe a mafia family....I remember way back with mack and the Kingpinz, that was fun, but something that is high risk lots of money, murder for hire, espionage, hacking (I assume this will come with the matrix) bank robberies...you catch my drift...so that's about it

By Dominik at Mar 27, 2002, 9:45 AM | 0

First of all, there are THREE of us in the WJF. And three TERRA agents. -Six- players on the side of the law. Not half are on at any one time.

Secondly, you criminals are pretty darn bad at covering your tracks. You kill or mug someone and you stick around? You kill people you KNOW so they can ID you over SIC? You do it around witnesses? You discuss your crimes around Polly Parrots? You plan your crimes out loud in front of crowds of players? What the hell is that?
I won't give away any IC information, but for me, I just need one or two people to talok to me, gove me some backgound, then a day or two of guesswork, like imaginary connect-the-dots, and I know most everything about your operation. Put more effort into hiding these things, fer bog's sake. Prior to becoming a Judge, my character broke craploads of laws, and even if you could get every single player to spill their guts to you, you'd only find out about one incident.

And as for the law being too 'strong', hell, most of the people who play criminals have higher stats and skills so we can't touch them. Whoopeedoo.

By Murphy at Mar 27, 2002, 11:23 AM | 0

There are 3 terra agents covering REd, WJF doesn't have deal witht hat, so you have 3 to cover squeeky clean Gold, Green and Blue, now think abou the player base, we usually have like what 10-15 players on, usually at least 2 of th ose are judges or Terra agents, that's not a bad ratio…..

By Dominik at Mar 27, 2002, 11:34 AM | 0

Actually, we DO have to worry about Red. TERRA are more like those WJF guards than Judges, they don't do much investigating, they walk around and arrest (at most). And when I mean 3 WJF, I do include the one player Ops. And beside, I never said we need more. I said criminals in the Dome need to be sneakier and more cautious (and paranoid), as I can find dirt on pretty much any of you with little to no effort.

By Murphy at Mar 27, 2002, 11:42 AM | 0

And I'm saying we need to have crime pay better, or else there is little reason to do so, I've blown away people in crowds before, walked past judges Packin….they didn't do shit, so it's not that criminals aren't sneaky, or dumb, there just aren't many of them

By Dominik at Mar 27, 2002, 12:00 PM | 0

Ya ever think that maybe they didn't do anything because you could easily kill them?

By Murphy at Mar 27, 2002, 12:02 PM | 0

Easily? Doubtfully, but I -was- a judge, I went in to fights I knew I couldn't take, Devon, Gangers, do something your gettin paid to die, it's not my problem I can kill you, do you think cops are always the cream of the crop?

By Dominik at Mar 27, 2002, 12:04 PM | 0

Going into fights you know are going to kill you is completely ridiculous. Would you do it IRL, even if you had a clone? I mean, it's still not really 'you', it's still 'dying'. Having a clone isn't like having an extra 'life' in Super Mario Bros. It's not "damn, I fell in a hole!", it's more like "OH FUCK AGH IVE BEEN SHOT ARRRHHHHHHHH" *froth* *fizzle* *thunk*. I play my character like a real person. Real people usually don't want to die and will go out of their way to avoid dying. I myself, IRL, have often expressed my dislike for death. It doesn't look very enjoyable, and I plan to postpone my death as much as possible. Call me a procrastinator if you want to. Seeing as I'm playing the role of another human being, albeit fictional, I'd assume staying alive is one of his primary motivations.
If I was on the roof of Westinghaus and saw a criminal walking on Lamb's Wake below, I wouldn't jump off in hopes of landing on him and crushing him to death, y'know?
Mike Pondsmith snippets:

"Who is Morgan Blackhand and why is he still alive?

Morgan Blackhand (my archetypical Solo character) is not the alive because he's the best around. he's the best because he's alive. Simple. […] I just play him smarter. […] Morgan, for all of his now formidable abilities, would never think of taking the sharp end for a bunch of wet-eared squeebs. He wouldn't have lived this long if he just acted as a hired gun." -from Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads, ©1994 R.Talsorian Games

My character doesn't get paid to get himself killed. He gets paid to uphold the law. And he's only failed -once-, and that was the only time he died. See, he was a cop before coming to the Dome, he knows how to stay alive and do his job. In that order of importance. Money is useless if you're dead.

By Murphy at Mar 27, 2002, 12:26 PM | 0

Ok, I'll concede that I phrased it badly. The WJF isn't too strong.

What I'm talking about here isn't really anything to do with the WJF, of TERRA. It's as Dom said. The only way to make money as a career criminal, is as a fixer and take it from me, when I tell you that WJF employees probably make more chyen than you can make as a fixer, because so few people are interested in buying illegal goods. Why? Because they don't need them. What's the point in buying a gun, that you don't really have any use for?

I'm not saying there should be fewer Law types. I don't care, if due to thier own stupidity or poor planning, people get caught and punished for committing crimes.

As for people mugging and killing people they know..in most murders, the victim knew the killer, and as for mugging, the SIC makes that pretty much impossible, unless you kill the person you're mugging. What other criminal things do people do? Pickpocketing. Sure, that's fine, if there are people out there making a living from it, good on them. Selling black market gear. Yay. great if there were more than about 3 people who want it.

Why -not- have some sort of organised crime, where jobs are given to people in the know, who can do them themselves, or subcontract to other people. There are so many possibilities:

Simple deliveries
Storing a package for a specified time period
Even contract killings - An NPC created for the job, someone who's pissed off the mob.
Collecting money
Meeting someone
Taking a photgraph of someone/something

It just seems to me like there are very few avenues for people to do the whole gangster trip.

By King[Fu] at Mar 27, 2002, 12:39 PM | 0

Oh, and Murphy, how exactly does your character know icly that the people you're talking about could kill him?

Last I looked, you were laden down with body armour and carrying a really big gun.

By King[Fu] at Mar 27, 2002, 12:47 PM | 0

Meeting people and taking pictures is hardly criminal =P
Anybody would do that.

But hey, you wanna know how to kill someone without gtting caught? I'll oblige you.

a) Find someone willing and capable to do the job(plenty of people if you look on the QTs) whom the victim doesnt know.

b) make a fake SIC or QT alias, and send a message. Discuss the details, payment, et cetera.

c) put half the money in a wallet and leave it in a Neotrans locker, and give your hired goon the code (over SIC or QT, again anonymously) so he can get it, to establish trust. Tell him he gets the rest once the job's done.

d) Job's done, ask him where he hid the corpse. Go see it when the other guy's not around. When you;re satisfied, leave the rest of the money in the same locker,

So how's the victim going to testify to anything? Especially if the other guy was wearing a mask and all. And the victim won't remember jack shit. So both you and the killer, if you were careful, left no evidence.

Of course, if you use this, I'll catch you, because I know this technique =P

By Murphy at Mar 27, 2002, 12:51 PM | 0

Simple. I ask one of my informants (of course, I'm not naming names) as to what kind of people they are, if they usually pack heat, how proficient they are…of course, how my -informants- know this ICly is THEIR problem. And besides, most of the people my character is afraid to book have large, long histories - it's sort of easy to deduce you know...for instance, Dominik was a Judge. And you, King[Fu], my character's -seen- your character in action, before he was a Judge. The one time I -got- killed is because I stayed to fight this fellow I had never heard of, when it would have been smarter to run, considering who his backup was in the first place.

You think I go into any bust blind? I very RARELY do anything very riksy without backup with me or nearby. I've even hired backup on occasion.

By Murphy at Mar 27, 2002, 12:57 PM | 0

I feel I should expand on things here and yet I don't want to give away a lot of IC stuff that pertains to this conversation.. as much as I'd like to, as it would clear some things up and show that being a gangster is quite possible.

I have been ranting and complaining for.. it seems like forever.. about the lack of crime on Red. Whenever possible I've attempted to bring that element into the game and many times I've had other admin or players completely foul those attempts. I love Cyberpunk and post-apocalyptic stuff.. that's why I try and focus my attention more on Red and usually refuse to deal with WJF NPCs and RP. I like the dirty, murderous, fucked up aura of that level and I'd actually like to make it worse, if possible.

Now then… one of the reasons TERRA is taking shit over on Red is to attempt to get the WJF out of there... make things a bit easier for the criminal element. The laws and judgements have been refined so that the WJF has an idea what to do for given situations. I don't really want to get into a big economical rant here, but.. the criminals will get fined a large amount. Where do they get that money? Bruce maybe.. or perhaps they could take advantage of one of the loan sharks.

The previous posts have touched on quite a few areas and I'd really like to throw out my points on various things. Tash.. I'm sorry to say, but you're missing a helluva lot of the game and for you to say that the only thing happening is the sniper is just... get out of your damn apartment! heh. I see multiple murders, pickpockets, robberies, beatings etc.. EVERY single day. If you got out more, you might see them too.

I have been waiting for months and months for a group to come along that was able to start up some sort of crime ring.. gang.. something. Yes, there have been little groups that have come through, but none have had the mental capacity to pull it off. If they could get their shit together and get a fucking clue, we might have some interesting groups happening. Anything is possible here.. even taking down an older, much more experienced player or one with far superior gear. Use your brains people! Think!

Murphy, your situation, had it been played out differently would not have amounted to much else. Sometimes players have to make choices to further the game in one direction or another.

Sorry for skipping all over the place... umm.. the SIC, yes it does pose a bit of a problem and we've mused about having other areas have outages or be more difficult to get through. Most of the underground areas and sewers are frequency blocked. Other thoughts are to have "highly illegal" frequency disrupters, which would be great for criminals. ;)

By FireStorm at Mar 27, 2002, 2:01 PM | 0

All this talk about WJF being too strong really kinda gets me. I know of a slew of people that are criminals that i can't touch. I've died over half a dozen times taking on gangers and trying to make arrests. You want to get away with a crime? Kill me before i know who you are. I mean it's been done, over and over. As far a Dom saying there's three people to cover Gold Green and BLue??? How often are the two PC judges on at the same time? I can honestly say about once a week. And as far as the power of WHJ, I ask for routine assistance all the time, wire taps on known criminals, surviellence equipment, all of which im am told that we don't have the resources. And our power as judges is leveled against the prejudice for Judges. I ask questions and get nothing most of the time. Crime is hard in the Dome, but its not because of the number of law enforcement it is because of the martial law we live under, im with Murphy on this one you wanna make money being a criminal be smarter about it. Well i just woke up and i don't know how much sense any of this makes so take it how you want to.

By allandra at Mar 27, 2002, 2:09 PM | 0

Actualy. FireStorm, I sat about two minutes yammering over SIC in that room where I was before he/she/it came down, and WALKED RIGHT PAST ME, and then came back to get me. And then the other one came, heh..in two minutes, I might not have gotten to the WHJ, the safest building in the Dome, but I sure as hell could have gotten to one of a dozen boltholes on Red. A New Rose cube, a friend's apartment, the sewers (maybe they didn't have flashlights?), or anywhere else where I could lay low till the people wanting to inflict the hurtfulness upon my character would 'go to sleep', heh. But of course, that's in retrospect. But yeah, I could have survived long enough to report every last freakin' detail to my superiors. I probably would have gotten aced later, but still. I actually killed myself by momentary stupidity, you know, like dancing on a minefield.

Hopefully that was vague enough so only those who are supposed to know will know. Because then other people would know, and you don't always want other people to know what you know, because they shouldn't know and then they'd know, y'know?

By Murphy at Mar 27, 2002, 3:33 PM | 0

Can't you just envision it though, Judge Nixon walking down New Light when suddenly a black hummer/dark sedan type car pulls open. The window rolls down and a submachine gun pokes out the window, ratatat. He falls, two guys jump out, grab him and throw him in the back. Screech, they're gone. Then they drive to some bar where they pay the owner for a secret room and dump him in there.

*sniffs.*

By Mael at Mar 27, 2002, 6:34 PM | 0

First, I deleted Mael's post because if did have IC information. If you read it, don't use it. These boards are not to have IC knowledge on them. Mael, its perfectly acceptable to say 'you have an idea' for something crime related, don't go into detail. We've had an ongoing OOC problem, we don't need more chances for people to use information the wrong way.

Anywho.

Crime. I too, like FS, have tried my best to get crime going on Red. I managed to get a few more crme NPCs around, but I -WANT- PC crime!!!! And soon!!

There is a huge boundary to what we as admin can do with NPCs compared to what a PC can do. We are limited by certain rules and stuff (yes, its not a walk in the park).

I've tossed around the idea of starting a gang that 'hires' PCs, and then eventually leave it all to the PCs. This, however, is not a very plausible deal at the moment because of our somewhat lacking playerbase. That may not be an issue anymore, it all depends.

As for a mafia… the last time we had that, it ended in issues that I think most of us don't care to discuss. Anyone remember Mac or Duke? (I think it was Duke...) Yea, they had the KingPinz goin', and it was somewhat successful... somewhat.

I'd like to see a playerbased gang going. If you have an idea or want to get something out, feel free to send me a mail ([email protected]). I'm not saying I can give you a location, NPCs, weapons, and cash.... but I sure can help you get things rolling if we work it out.

As for WJF/TERRA, Murph is right. TERRA doesn't have nearly the power of a Judge. And Judges don't nearly have the power to do whatever they want... well, in most cases. What I'd really like to see going is disguises... everything from ski masks to plastic face reconstructions... If I could code... that'd be the first thing I'd want to code up. Disguises that are code based would add a huge deal to the gaming world, opening doors we never thought we had.

I mean, seriously... what criminal walks up, without covering their face, and tries to rob someone they know? Who tries to commit a point blank murder in a bustling street without concealing themselves?

Its something I think should have been done a while ago. Unfortunately, as soon as I became an admin I saw the huge list of code that is pending... hopefully I can get coding myself soon... hopefully. *coughs*

Anyways. Like I said, mail me if you have ideas in general about possible RP. Chances are we won't use them... but we may be inspired by them. Mostly however, you just need to be patient with us. We have alot going on, and still want to help everyone.

-TERRA waited a year to come to fruitition.
-Jobs (specifically Judge) sometimes take months to work out.
-Gerik's show has taken a while to piece together (remember, he got it at Christmas.)

Patience is the key, thanks for all that you guys do do. And thanks for being patient with us. We try, but we can't always meet everyone's needs at once.

I especially want to thank you for being supportive now, with the recent... ordeals. Just you guys being around is enough for us to keep going.

Hrm, that ended up being longer than I thought...

I -AM- Sindomian!

By Wren at Mar 27, 2002, 8:21 PM | 0

Oi vey, I have a mafia idea.

By Mael at Mar 27, 2002, 8:24 PM | 0

It was mac, and Duke, I remember them well, I was there and it was kinda my fault (not dom's) That brought th at down, hehehe, funny shit

But the problem is, most of the people here that are combat are too scared to be a crime, because it needs to pay…Mafia would need too much structure....but what -if- a corp Contacted mr A.S.S Kicker, gave him XXXXXXXXXX chyen to get 10 guys together and Kill Mr Brie F. Case steal his computer chip with top secret files....he'd get an extra XXXXXXX chyen when it was done.........then things pay......

By Dominik at Mar 27, 2002, 10:37 PM | 0

Dom's kinda on the same frequency as me on this, whereas it seems to me a lot of others are getting highly defensive about it, without actually taking the time to work out what's beaing said.

That said, I'm not really talking about 'the mafia'. Organised crime comes in all kinds of packaging, and, needs very little outside support, -if- there is a way for it to be profitable. Sure, we could walk around, kill everyone we see and take thier stuff, and sell it. But then, we're kinda drifting into CS territory there. �If crime isn't profitable, you're not gonna get many criminals, save the odd socipath, and a few people who kill people over personal issues, who will do what we're talking about without some kinda of remuneration.

I would -love- to see player based gangs, but, that kinda of crime isn't what I'm talking about…never has been, I'm not talking about street level stuff, because that's cut and dry, you rob people, however you can to make your money.

Big money in organised crime comes from importing black market goods, protection raquets, armed robberies, even industrial espionage. That's more what I'm talking about.

If some mobster tells someone they need something done and will pay X amount for it. Then, that person accepts, but is well aware they can't do it alone, or, simply doesn't want to take the risk of doing it themselves, hires a small team to do it, making sure they're still gonna make a tidy profit for themselves of course...That's gonna be good for the game..people get to do something a little different to make chyen, not to mention the potential for RP, all the planning, and inevitable double and tripple crossing that's bound to go on.

All of these things -need- admin involvement to work. Otherwise, you walk into Jimmy's, pull your gun, point it at him and tell him to make with the readies, and he stands there, ignoring you...

But. That's really what I meant when I started this string.

Ok. I'm done rambling now.

(Edited by King[Fu] at 9:08 am on Mar. 28, 2002)

By King[Fu] at Mar 28, 2002, 4:03 AM | 0

So it seems to me that the only rational thing to do (yes, being sarcastic here) is to let the admins pick an organized crime boss and give him buttloads of chyen to dish out to get certain tasks done. Oooh oooh, pick me!

Ok, having said that silly little comment, I want to seriously say that players of the game aren't able to make impressions in the game other than social. Oooo, blashpemy… bite me! If they were able to do something other than chat, shoot, chat, xhelp, deliver packages, shoot more and maybe even stab on occasion, we would see SD blossom. Think of a character who's been used a long time, having saved up money and starting their own business. They would need a building... they can't do it from a hotel room. If players could be able to rent out a building and start their own company, then yeah we would see a whole lot more underhanded work going on.

I mean mom and pop companies, not organizations. "Jimmy" and "Helga" would technically be what I'm talking about. They had to start somewhere... where did they get their buildings? Eventually, they would evolve into fleshed out and fully self-sufficent operations like "Mr. Bruce" has... and may even franchise like the famous "Rikken McChikken" chain.

Merely food for thought. I'm not complaining one bit. Most people don't want to devote that much time and effort to do crap when they can steal, deliver packages and anything else that gets them enough money to stay off the streets and have a decent RP every now and again.

My point? Perhaps we should consider making some way that people can permanantly alter the dome other than graffitti.

By Frank at Mar 28, 2002, 7:08 AM | 0

Actually, Players can do a lot more than chat and shoot. About a year ago, an old characture of mine started a rogue organization. To my knowledge, that organization is still around and still doing what it's supposed to do. I started this little admin help save for the help that I got from NPC's ICly. If I needed a door opened, I went to the resident cracker, offered him information, offered to help them, I got the door opened.

The Kingpinz (although I have to laugh at the thought of that), was also started by players. but back then it was hard to RP anything with all of the xchatting going on.

If you want to see something happen, do it. If a GM sees you trying to do it, and it's relitivly good idea AND it fits with our IC world…I'm sure that you will get a ton of help. But I don't think that they'd waste time helping out for a half cocked idea when there is JoeyIC that's working his ass off to start something.

Give and you shall recieve.

By DaveK at Mar 28, 2002, 11:27 AM | 0

Quote: from Frank on 10:08 am on Mar. 28, 2002[br]
Ok, having said that silly little comment, I want to seriously say that players of the game aren't able to make impressions in the game other than social. �Oooo, blashpemy… bite me! �If they were able to do something other than chat, shoot, chat, xhelp, deliver packages, shoot more and maybe even stab on occasion, we would see SD blossom. �Think of a character who's been used a long time, having saved up money and starting their own business. �They would need a building... they can't do it from a hotel room. �If players could be able to rent out a building and start their own company, then yeah we would see a whole lot more underhanded work going on. �

You mean like Wildfire who opened Carnal and Lucifer who opened TERRA?

You can make pretty big changes in SD, the most important being social, as that modifies how the players react and think. And that's pretty damn big.
If you have the cash, I'm sure you can contact a GM about one of the abandoned buildings or the abandoned office and open your own little firm.

Example time!

Lucifer, for one, opened TERRA, and over time changed the way the Law operates on Red. That's something, innit?

Wildfire opened Carnal, whichi s probably the most popular watering hole on Red. An' I ain't saying no more.

Nic and Tash are tailors, and have their clothes sold at Josephine's, and between them define haute-couture in Withmore. The pied pipers of Fashion, if you will.

Me, I'm a Judge. My character is the -LAW-. I decide who's innocent, who's guilty, who lives and who dies and who gets a fine. That's pretty damn big too.

So be patient and you'll find your niche, won't you?

By Murphy at Mar 28, 2002, 11:33 AM | 0

Or someone could ask a Mobster to do it, but there's another idea. Someone could start up a mercenary crew and to big time robberies for a cut of the pay. The/A Mafia would help, like King Fu said gangs aren't really enough. They're main crimes are mugging, harassing and on occasion murdering people. Most of the time they stand around their turf.
Extortion rackets, money laundering, hiding illegal goods in Bruce's packages. There's alot of money to be made by higher-level crime. But that is the sort of activity that is hard to create without admin-help. For example, if there was a Mafia, they'd have to have a headquarters. Most crime syndicates have some form of front, hell, you could even have one operating out of the back of Olga's.

There has to be some organization fit to rival the WJF and TERRA, it would help RP.

By Mael at Mar 28, 2002, 11:45 AM | 0

Quote: from Murphy on 11:33 am on Mar. 28, 2002[br]
Lucifer, for one, opened TERRA, and over time changed the way the Law operates on Red. That's something, innit?
Wildfire opened Carnal, whichi s probably the most popular watering hole on Red. An' I ain't saying no more.
Nic and Tash are tailors, and have their clothes sold at Josephine's, and between them define haute-couture in Withmore. The pied pipers of Fashion, if you will.
Me, I'm a Judge. My character is the -LAW-. I decide who's innocent, who's guilty, who lives and who dies and who gets a fine. That's pretty damn big too.
So be patient and you'll find your niche, won't you?

Look dude, I was pointing out the fact that we don't have any player-based "buildings" that crooked organizations run. Why is that? Simply because like everyone keeps screaming… "There isn't enough incentive in being crooked.". I've found my niche and I could care less of what you and WJF and anyone else do. I think if people really want to get crime going, then they'll do what we've been talking about and infact, open the doors of a crooked organizational building. That's fine and dandy. I'm trying to help the thread move along in the right direction, so don't try and catch me in my words.

By Frank at Mar 28, 2002, 12:06 PM | 0

Quote: from Frank on 3:06 pm on Mar. 28, 2002
Look dude, I was pointing out the fact that we don't have any player-based "buildings" that crooked organizations run.

Just because you haven't found 'em doesn't mean they're not there.

By Murphy at Mar 28, 2002, 12:13 PM | 0

Quote: from Frank on 9:06 am on Mar. 28, 2002
Look dude, I was pointing out the fact that we don't have any player-based "buildings" that crooked organizations run.

If you're trying to say TERRA is an upstanding organization, you better think twice. HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE

By DaveK at Mar 28, 2002, 12:21 PM | 0

…and you want to know why these things haven't been done? No organization by the players, lack of wanting to go the extra yard and get things done.. lack of imagination. Seriously.. there's a reason why certain players are in the position they are in. These things don't just happen overnight.

If you want to be crooked and succeed, you need to be somewhat smart about what you do and how you do it. I have seen very few people succeed, because they have no patience or they're just too damn stupid.

I can tell you right now it would be very possible for a decent group of people to get together and be able to purchase some sort of building. Money? Damn right it'll cost money.. you're looking at 6 figures. Don't have money? Get a fucking loan from somebody! Don't have the collateral or stature to get that loan? Then get started on building that up.

Frank.. I'm sorry to say, but your comment "I want to seriously say that players of the game aren't able to make impressions in the game other than social." is total bullshit. I suppose that's just a statement made out of ignorance though, so I will forgive you this time for insulting all those players who made something of themselves.

"Perhaps we should consider making some way that people can permanantly alter the dome other than graffitti." Umm... that's what you players are supposed to do.. get off your ass and do it! USE YOUR FUCKING MIND AND COME UP WITH AN IDEA! *cough* yes...

By FireStorm at Mar 28, 2002, 3:39 PM | 0

I definitely think there has to be more of an incentive to play as a criminal. I got beat down so much from picking pockets (even when the npc's didn't notice off the bat, i would get a beating the next time i saw them) i just gave up on it. Add some Mob bosses and such that would give you jobs, start out with small stuff then work your way up to bigger and bigger shit (i.e. GTA3). Maybe add a highly addictive drug. One that would boost player stats when using, and when the juice runs out the player would suffer severe withdrawl syndromes: Stats cut in half, extreme weakness. Add in some opposing suppliers and watch the fun begin. Probally be a real bitch to program though. Just my thoughts.

–Oni--

By Oni at Mar 28, 2002, 3:45 PM | 0

umm.. yeah, stat altering drugs have been in the game for AGES

You got caught cause your skill sucks and yes you deserve to get a beat down. You want to be a pickpocket, you need to think like one.. pick your targets. Going up to a group of gangers and trying to thief from them isn't the smartest of ideas.. try that in real life and see how long you survive.

By FireStorm at Mar 28, 2002, 3:56 PM | 0

Yeah, i mean besides gangers on red, there are so many targets to choose from. �I'd like to try and hone my skills on npc's before going after real folks. �Some corpies with a fat roll would be nice. �I guess i have't hit upon any of these stat altering drugs yet. �But do any of them cause you damage if you discontinue use?

–Oni--

(Edited by Oni at 5:04 pm on Mar. 28, 2002)

By Oni at Mar 28, 2002, 5:03 PM | 0

Hey Firestorm, do yourself a favor and don't be a bitch to strangers online, mkay? Thanks, goodnight.

For those of you who know what I'm talking about, you know that I was right on the money. Everything IS social here. That's why it takes forever to get things done. That's why nobody right now can live the fast life of crime. Because it's not fast in this M*. It's slow as dirt.

Personally, I don't care that it is… I think it's great that it's slow. I'm just stating the obvious for people that don't get that point to see... not for people to bitch at me, Firestorm.

By Frank at Mar 28, 2002, 5:21 PM | 0

Sindome has had drugs for a long time.

Drugs can make you better.

Drugs have downsides.

Drugs can cause hallucinations.

Drugs can be addictive.

Drugs are bad, m'kay?

Oh, and Frank, since I'm the resident asshole, fuck you.

By Johnny at Mar 28, 2002, 5:49 PM | 0

I can't belive how you people treat the users of your fucking game! Nobody wants to play when the admins bitch all day long. Fuck you, too Johnny. Fuck your damn NLM ads, too. Get yourself another graphic artist.

By Frank at Mar 28, 2002, 6:53 PM | 0

Don't be a bitch? What kind of crap is that? Look kid, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. You want to post shit on these boards that is filled with ignorance and then can't take the replies, then don't. I have had it up to here with bullshit players running around all fucking day spamming, creating alts, killing newbies in their sleep, abusing code, etc. etc. etc. so I will damn well speak my mind in any fucking way I see fit.

I am not bitching at you in particular, I am bitching at every damn person that complains about shit and does absolutely nothing to help themselves. Don't think you're so special that I'm going to direct that post at you.. you just happened to speak your mind and set me off. If you don't want to take that advice, that's fine.

Nobody hired you to be the be-all and end-all of our NLM ads. Johnny suggested you might like to considering you mentioned you did graphics. There are plenty of graphic artists in the staff, but we've been too busy coping with you lot to do anything creative. Keep it up people, you're just throwing kindling onto my already disheartened views.

By FireStorm at Mar 28, 2002, 7:11 PM | 0

Until you guys figure out that you're not the holy of holies and quit talking down to players and admins alike, then people will continue to drop. Get better info pages and people won't but you with xhelp. Get over yourselves and act like adults if that's possible. Everyone gets pissed off, but venting on complete strangers… especially over the internet... is stupid. If it bugs you that fucking bad to do what you do, then don't fucking do it.

By Frank at Mar 28, 2002, 7:27 PM | 0

Yes, definitely headed in that direction. I've already cut back my hours with Sindome and the work I put into it. I am also speaking my mind in a forum, not venting to you (frank) personally. I also said nothing about players asking for help. I don't have a problem with answering questions on xhelp at all.. and if you (frank and anyone else that's not had first hand accounts of the player abuse, admin problems and general mayhem) had any idea of the shit we've had to put up with in the past few weeks… let's just say you're (anyone who decides to connect) lucky SD is still there. People will continue to drop? Who exactly are you (frank) speaking of? Is that another ignorant statement pertaining to our loss of 3 admin? Do you (frank) really have any idea what happened that caused them to leave?

Perhaps we should take a poll... is Frank the only one having these feelings?

By FireStorm at Mar 28, 2002, 7:38 PM | 0

I think you're misunderstanding him. Firestorm, you answered your own question. You said yourself that you have cut back your Sindome time. Do you think you're the only one? I don't mean other admins, I'm talking about players. I've heard various accounts of people saying stuff like:"I'm not logging on much anymore. Or, I'm gonna go to CS, etc."My personal belief is that this -could- have been a morale booster for us. It could have been turned around. But, sadly, it wasn't. This isn't being handled the way it optimally could. I, for one, am doing what I've done all along. I'm sticking with it, I'm playing the game.

(Edited by Shadow at 8:14 pm on Mar. 28, 2002)

By Shadow at Mar 28, 2002, 8:09 PM | 0

Stop straying from this pretty topic! ;(

By Mael at Mar 29, 2002, 8:51 AM | 0

Wow, I leave for three days and everything goes nuts…

Heh.

I think everyone needs to calm down and stop bitching. Yes, some of the admin have gotten testy. I know I have.

I firmly believe we have a right to as well. Everything we do is VOLUNTEER. And when someone complains, bitches, cusses us out, makes ignorant remarks, or just is an ass to us... we have a right to be pissed. Granted, sometimes its not carried out in the right manner.

If you want someone to change Frank... change it. Go out and start something. If I think you have potential with it, I may step in and talk to you about it. All the things listed that people did, took TIME. There is no quick fix in life, thus... no quick fix in Sindome.

And yes, there have been mounds of bullshit recently. Spammy players. Alts. Shit galore. If we seem testy, best thing to do is let it rest for a few. No use fanning the flame.

By Wren at Mar 29, 2002, 3:19 PM | 0

I'm gonna try to get this a bit more on topic….ummm

I know I've said this a few times on this board, but you have Mr Newb Ie, he can either
1) Be a legit, tailor, bartender, TERRA agent, Delivery boy, Judge etc....which generally pays well, and has no risk of Judgement, and little risk of death

2) mooch, make some slutty whore and mooch of hard working people, no work, could be fun, I dunno

3) Steal, lie and cheat...our everyday criminal...this pays very little and -will- result in death, loss of gear, and money

Why would -anyone- be a criminal? It's hard to RP a 'job', you can't even hide it very well, and it's high risk, low pay, unlike the other too, low risk, high pay....I think if a newb could get 3k a week or 6k a month, to pledge his allegiance to a gang, he'd do it....he now is getting good pay to do little, make sure someone has his back, and try to work his way up the Gang latter.....now should GM's pull together one or two vets feed him/her endless supplies of money, armor, and weapons....no...but if a corp had some 'business' he needed taken care of....he could contact the right wo/man, feed him small amounts of cash, a little info, maybe a piece or two...to get people...those 4-5 people pull some small jobs for the suit, he gets more money and if filters down to the leader...who can get new recruits it a month or two you could have 15 people ina gang.....it's gotta be give take....even few PC vets have the kinda cash, and motive pull this....but a couple of wealthy NPC's might...

Just an idea...I reallyt think crime on red would be great...but I'm damn sure unless I'm gettin 5k a week I'm not gonna do it

By Dominik at Mar 30, 2002, 11:06 PM | 0

Problem with that is a lack of playerbase Dom… we need more active... non-idiotic... players.

By Wren at Mar 31, 2002, 6:08 PM | 0

I'll give ya that….but it's a start

By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 6:46 PM | 0

Well, it's no longer my place nor in my desire to really get too deep into what this threads about, but I -had- to post simply to say…

Frank, you are a complete and utter moron.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest, Johnny. :cool:

By Rastus at Mar 31, 2002, 10:11 PM | 0

I second that

By Dominik at Mar 31, 2002, 10:15 PM | 0

Who's Frank?

By Mael at Mar 31, 2002, 10:23 PM | 0

Thanks, it means the world to me to hear what you guys think about someone whom you don't even know. It doesn't take anyone with any kind of wits or balls to say stuff like that over the internet. Hope somehow you feel empowered as you sit there wondering how to run a cyberlife which you spend more time on than doing anything else.

By Frank at Apr 1, 2002, 9:28 AM | 0

it means the world to me to hear what you guys think about someone whom you don't even know.

Hmmm…

a cyberlife which you spend more time on than doing anything else.

Mhmmm…

So, why are you telling us what you think about a group of people who you don't even know?

I'm curious as to your logic.

By Murphy at Apr 1, 2002, 11:16 AM | 0

*titters*

By Rastus at Apr 2, 2002, 4:07 AM | 0

man…I'm not going to read all this stuff here. I'm just going to comment on the first thing, and be -DAMNED- if it's allready been said and agreed with.

I think Law is just fine. It's a bitter onesided system here in the dome. I like it that way.

There are all sorts of players running about doing quasi-illegal and illegal dealings constantly. WJF can't deal with all of em. Not possible. And if you've half a brain, they never know. It is not hard at all to do. Plus, some judges in theory would be corrupt and bribeable. So there is that.

My only real beef with the laws of withmore are that they are so -damn- difficult to find ICly. I think, and always have thought, that corporate and citizen law should be available for review IN THE GAME. It would be neat if there was a terminal or something that you could use to read up on the laws. Would make for some interesting situations.

I LOVE that WJF and now TERRA make unfair legal and authority situations. Christ, you people want a Utopian society filled with happy dancing flower-children look elsewhere. This is CYBERPUNK! It's gritty. Dirty. And DAMN UNJUST!

As to why you'd be a criminal, Well, it would be LUCRATIVE if you PEOPLE would run these underground groups right. GODS! I hate seeing info given out for free. I HATE IT! Info is worth more than GOLD! I hate how apathetic people are. Bitching and moaning about work. Jesus. I NEVER GOT HELP GETTING WORK. I started my OWN DAMN BUSINESS and worked it for over a YEAR before any admin said 'Hey, here's some help'. GET OFF YOUR ASSES AND WORK FOR IT.

Gods. There should be gangs and thugs and mobs and EVERYTHING. But nOOOOooooo. You all just go to the bar and drink, then vote on the poll bitching about 'no roleplaying'. I can HONESTLY say that I've tried being a complete ASSHOLE to a bunch of people in the game who SIMPLY DON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I've put out hits, rewards, requests. Shouted on SIC, over the NLM Boards. Nadda. Its there, and you are all to bloody lazy to do anything with it. There are at least THREE VERY WEALTH PC's out there that I know of. *cough*Nic*cough* who offer up funding to start things. I've had ONE loan given out, and ONE approach that was too high a risk. In 3 months. Sad sad sad.

As to frank, jesus fuck, who the hell are you?

anyhow...I'll end the rant here. ONWARD! (yes, I am back my friends! I will be the posting feind I once was!)

By Nicadeamus at Apr 20, 2002, 1:54 PM | 0

Quote: from Nicadeamus on 4:54 pm on April 20, 2002[br]
GODS! I hate seeing info given out for free. I HATE IT! Info is worth more than GOLD!

Yeah, but some people do it for a reason - true, many are gullible and just too friendly, but others have things so far up their sleeves that they're pulling it outta their socks, and if a character gets something for free and isn't suspicious, then he or she is pretty dang naive.

Shit, there are times my character asked people to do things and then bloody well -forced- money into their hands to make sure he was in the clear.

By Murphy at Apr 20, 2002, 3:53 PM | 0

I'm glad we have a community where you all feel welcome to share your ideas. However most of the times when someone's bitching and ranting it's out of ignorance and false sense that they have a right to change something.

You get a video game, there's a set situation, you enter a room with a gun there are 5 guards. Do you sit and bitch "Aww i wish there were only 3…i've been through rooms with 3.. I WANT THREE waa waaa waa."

Ok...this is the game...there are obstacles, some are freakin' hard. This is NOT an equal oppertunity MOO. Some of you will never be wealthy, this game, this situation, the genre, the IC world REWARDS THE INTELLIGENT. JUDGES are stacked with gear for a reason, to keep you all from commiting crime. But no matter how stacked they get, there will always be ways around it, coded or otherwise.

I didn't read all these posts either, but this part is for newbies: We like when new people join and come see what we've created, but we're not going to go easy on you. We code some things to give you a safety net for a short time. There is an immunity time, free coffins for a time but when you come in and attack NPCs yer gonna get drilled.

I could rant about naivety for hours.
ADMIN CREATE THE WORLD THE WAY WE SEE FIT AND PURPOSEFULLY. If you don't like it toughl. Give us suggestions but don't bitch us or anyone else out.

blah blah i'll shut up now.

Obey the Law.

By Stonemonk at Apr 25, 2002, 7:36 AM | 0

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