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has sindome been getting better or worse?

Just finished reading the topic "i have this and this and this and…" in its entirety. took me an hour and a half. By the end of it i was thinking "So, ah, what about the fun then?" a lot of the people in that topic sounded pretty pissed off at the way things were going in the game, and all that it took to trigger a huge number of in-depth rants was a simple request for players to lower the number of useless items clogging up the system. there were some mentions of the best old players all having left, and that for some reason everything used to be much better.

I'm know I'm pretty new here compared to most of you but it makes me wonder, is the development of the MOO having the same consequences as the "development" applied to the real world: constantly adding enhancements and cool new things but at the same time draining the actual gritty FUN from the place in a desperate race to make it as great as possible?

I'm not really complaining as such, it's just that if players and good RPers are unhappy and are being turned away by the way the MOO is developing, isn't that development completely counter-productive? I know admins are usually developing things that players specifically ask for, so I suppose this topic is aimed more towards those players who've been here longer than I have and know what I'm talking about better than I do. lol. :)

Oh, there's always disgruntled people. It's the nature of the game: There's no way your going to keep everyone happy. Frustration and failure are built into the genre.

To say 'all the oldbies have left' is a pretty far cry from the truth.

The reality of the situtation is that people come and go ALL THE TIME. People form groups, which eventually get disbanded for whatever reason. They make friends, who later turn into enemies. There's oldbies aplenty in the game: People who have been playing it for 2 and 3 years. Even longer.

People also tend to have a very myopic view of the game: They think that because their group of friends left that that was 'all the oldbies'. But they never stop to consider the people they don't know, or the people who will come after them, and in time, become oldbies themselves.

It's an open community, and that means that people are going to come and go all the time. Even people who have been members of the community for a long long time. It's just the way it is, and there's nothing wrong with it. If anything, it helps the community to stay fresh and fun. Personally the last thing I want is a bunch of old farts with no energy left reminicing about the good old days. Give me a newbie who's full of energy and curiousity and ready to put his heart into it any day of the week!

If the game isn't fun, it's probablly for a multitude of reasons, some of which usually have nothing to do with the game itself or it's direction of development.

People fear change. It's in their nature… it's how we're raised and the society we grow up in. But when change happens, people usually find that it's A Good Thing(tm). Take the speech system: At first people were very afraid that it would endlessly frustrate people and make something basic like communication a hastle. And for a few it did. But exactly what we predicted would happen happened: People started getting more expressive with their RP, and finding alternative methods of communication. And when this happened, people, the same ones who said 'No!', actually became some of it's greatest supporters.

Is this always the case? Of course not. And when the player base makes itself known that it's not happy about a particular change, something inevitivbly get's done about it.

And your right: We the admin develop things that players ask for. That dosn't mean we ONLY develop things you ask for, or that we ALWAYS develop things you ask for, but as a general rule, the squeeky hindge get's the oil.

So if development is heading in a direction that's taking away from the game you have two choices:

You can get frustrated and leave. Many people have chosen this route, and we have never faulted them for it. We accept it as part of the dynamics of the community. It dosn't help the game, but it dosn't hurt it either like a lot of people seem to think.

OR...

You can voice your opinion in constructive ways (like you did here), and see if others agree or disagree with you. If there's a loud enough squeeak, chances are an admin will come around with an oil can sooner or later.

It's not a democracy: It's a monarchy. But we have a very benelovent dictator, and your voice, when used properly, has a very real effect.

So if your complaning that some people seem unhappy, I think you should probablly worry more about yourself: Are you happy? What's keeping you from being happy?

How do you think the direction of development is affecting the game, negatively or positively? You asked the question: "if players and good RPers are unhappy and are being turned away by the way the MOO is developing, isn't that development completely counter-productive?"

The answer to that is 'Yes'. But the real question you should be asking yourself is: "Is that happening? Why is it happening? What suggestions can I make that would help it to not happen?"

-Kevlar

while (work > 0) {
improve++;
}


Getting better all the way


Hm.  I think most of the "oldbies" that "left" were before my time..  and even so, alot of them have returned in some form or another (though I am not at liberty to discuss in what ways).  From my personal 2 years and 3 months (give or take) experience here, I've noticed an increase in player RP abilities..  though..  I seem to see a decrease in complex plots/storylines.  -Those- are the most fun in my opinion.  Though this is not by any means the fault of the admin.

Yeah, they could do interesting things if they wanted to (read:  if they actually had the time to), but the -real- fun comes when the plots start with the players.

In other words..  sure you can pose and emote better than anyone else on the MOO..  But are you creative enough to actually make a complex and engrossing contribution to the game?

Give it a whirl.

/ramble

I'll agree with Aikao on that point, there really hasn't been very many large Plot runs lately.  A few that may have been great fizzled out.
Being a player you can't see those most of the time, it's quite hard to put together a massive plot involving multiple characters. Scheduling differences, untimely absences, player deaths (that's a large factor) all have the possiblity of killing a well thought out run.
As for Oldbies leaving, (speaking as a player of 4-5 years)  They leave for alot of reasons, some of them are problems with the direction we're going in, some of them are because their characters become stale and boring being at the top.  Sometimes it's even over petty misunderstandings, something that saddens me.  
But yeah, players come and go, The oldbies usually make thier way back around, if not we have middlebees and n00bs comming in at a pretty steady rate.  
And I can say truthfully, many are gifted RP'rs, some are twinks and need to be shown the light, but I'd like to think of this community as a learning MOO. I myself take a pretty good amount of my time to help n00bs along, teach them to be IC, not just keeping IC and OOC seperate, but teach them we are not a video-game.

I'd hope that the player base thinks Sindome is getting better, I personally try and make sure everyone get's some GM love of some sort, whether it's getting some little run to being chased all over Red cause you've been mugging tourists.  
ok im done, *goes back to smokin his bubbler*

I've been here just a bit longer than Bixby in one form or another, I belive about 6 months or so. I've also been an administrator for…hmm...three years? Something like that.

In that time a lot of things that are very common to MOO environs have happened. Ebs and flows in the player base, adminbase, and of course the largest being the 'schizm'. We had a split in the MOO and some of the administrators: Rastus, Damon, Nixxi left. There sprang up a splinter-moo, Steel-Sky. It was far from an amiable splitting, but it was also far from as bad as they can get.

For a far more counter-productive split, take a look at the way Sindome was born in a splintering from Cybersphere. There was a massive anti-cybersphere sentiment, still is in a lot of ways. We often refer to it not in name, but code. CS. Elsemoo. That-other-place.

Also, having had a character that is well over 4 years old, after 4 years...it gets boring. There is not a lot of spice left for you. People revear you, they hate you, they talk about you rarely. They take action against you even less. It's a dull life. Street cred has piled up so high that even players who have never met you know that you are hot shit. You've been emoting and playing the role so long that the character has etched itself into the game vibe, and even newbies who don't know any better leave you alone.

So you get bored and leave.

Or if you are really smart, you let the character die and move on to the next character. Aboslutely nothing wrong with letting the character die. In fact, for anyone who feels a character they are in is stagnant, let the staff know, and we will gladly work with you to create an ending for that character that is exciting and game etching. (ie: Memorable to the playerbase after death).

Another factor is that a great many Oldbies are often offered a possition on the administrative side. I myself have always been leary of doing this. It has some pros, it has some cons. One of the cons is that a lot of oldbies are sort of 'player oriented' rather than 'game oriented', and when they move over they can't make the switch to the mindset needed for administrating. In other cases they just don't like it, or they do not like how the administrative side of things work on Sindome. Kevlar nailed it on the head, we are a monarchy, not democracy. Though that is something that has been debated and challenged on a fairly regular basis adminside. Some very good staff have been unable to work in that environment, and have left us.

Of the last 4 or 5 administrators we've tapped for GM possitions from the player base, I would willingly say that any of them who were older than 2 years typically were unable to make the transition for some reason. They typically just fade into the background, logging in now and then.

Others have fallen pray to life's woes. Loss of income, laid off. Or worse, given promotions that have forced them to work more hours in the week than they have. Or illness, or college, university, or any of a thousand things that pop up. Administration is a very unique situation. We are not here for 'FUN' in the same way that players are. As a player you are here to participate in the community and game as a source of entertainment. As an administrator, I personally am here because Sindome has evolved from being about playing a game, and become about a hobby. Sindome is my model toy train set. Rather than devote space in my house to build a realistic train set with really nifty steam engines and plastic cattle, I work on Sindome.

Does that mean I devote all my spare time to Sindome?

No.

It means that I devote as much as I can to do what it is I want to do. I no longer get a great deal out of player side activity. But I get a massive feeling of enjoyment from helping to build the game world. I enjoy written descriptions for room, NPCs, items. I -LOVE- doing things like writting a 20-25 page document that details the history of the world that Sindome takes place in. I like doing puppeting, and plots, and all that GM interaction that is needed on a day to day basis.

But I also enjoy other things in life. Like spending time with my girlfriend. Like walking in the rain. Like training in martial arts. Like finishing my degree. Like working. All the aspects of who I am, though they take away from the time I can dedicate to Sindome, also add to the potency of what I can bring to the game. Without a balance in things, burnout in life, work, and on the MOO occure. You loose the Mojo as Kevlar calls it.

And loosing the Mojo happens to players as well as administrators. It is an easy thing to do. Either you spend too much time in the game, or you take a break for too long and can not get back into the flow. It has happpened time and again to players of all sorts. Sometimes it is a good thing to move on, there are times in ones life when entering a dark, post-apocolyptic world full of desperation and gallows-humour is most definately a bad thing for ones health. There are other times when it is needed and enjoyable, a way to open up the eyes to the world around us and maybe try to do things to prevent a Withmore City environment from becoming reality.

Now, as to large plots, yes, they have been missing in the last 8 to 12 months. Why? Well, I for one have been very occupied with school and work trying to finish off my degree. Jinkorei, one who is still concidered the Head GM on Sabatical, has been busy with his life, and trust me he is a very full person with family at the front of his duties. There are a scattering of other GMs about who are absent due to school, life, and in some cases not wanting to administrate. We've also had some staff leave, like Stonemonk, who was a fantastic Head GM, and who was amazingly able at driving energy into the player base.

Do not dispare players. We have some fantastic staff right now, though we are manning the ship on what I like to think of as 'Skeleton Crew'. Bixby puts in a massive amount of time here, as much as any one person can without going insane. Kevlar and Johnny are working constantly to improve things on the MOO. Things players may not even concider a worry. Things like database performance, database size management, and getting around many of the limitations built into a Lambda MOO core. I put in hours a week as I can in a shifting globluar manner that spikes and lulls like the tide, depending on where I am and what I am doing at work or in school.

We have a solid core of staff, and a good many GMs that come in and out of things as hey have time. Helping where and when they can. Are we looking for more staff? Of course. We are always looking for people with experiance in coding Lambda or Object Oriented languages. We are -ALWAYS- looking for GM staff, though we have become very very cautious about who we look to these days. We have had too many people leave the game once they see the other side of the curtain.

Now...to roll back onto the topic at hand here, Oldbies leave. They get old, they know the game too well, and it gets boring. Also, you would be suprised to know that some of the people you think are 'Newbies' or 'Midbies' have been on the game for a long time. As long as I have. Or longer in some cases. Some have had 3-4 major characters. Some have only had 2...We have even had some come back from a long hiatus after being reaped and make a new character and start from scratch.

If I could give one honest critique of the situation on Sindome, it would be a lack of GM cycles to imput energy into the game. One of the biggest roles of a GM is to puppet, to stir, and to run plots. And currently on Sindome there just isn't enough manpower to go much beyond a sort of 'status quo' maintanance in which the GM staff keep the games basic funtions running. Pulling together a large plot takes a massive amount of cycles, which are just not available. If there was one more full time GM logging in the level of commited and semi-commited time that Bixby logs in, that would probably free up enough cycles to start putting in some small and mid-sized plots. If we had another full timer and  a dedicated part timer then we would begin to see a lot more vitality in the plots and game environs.

As Bixby said to me the other day, even having someone to bounce ideas about with is a massive help.

Anyhow, I'll wrap this Iga rant up and let some other people post. And I hope to hear from some players more on this, as it helps direct us GM staff on what we need to do most.

I was thinking and an idea popped on my head….

How about semi-DMs? Like someone that runs the head of the arteries, one that runs the Sinners and they hate each other and do random ammounts of chaos thru the mOO. They would still play a bit and roll on the plots.

Like NLM has been left alone playerwise for some time now, put someone there with a new char that runs the place up. Could be a NPC that he 'logs on into' and can only control that NPC. Run shows, put stuff on the news, hire newbies, stir the mass.

Make those vital positions an appliable function on the mOO, people interested mail the staff and they go on a trial period as puppeting the Head Artery, the NLM Chairman and even WJF-Ops...

All these special characters, don't die or strand out when the person appointed to it has to leave for whatever reason. Another player applies for the job and we keep the ball running.

We actually would kill 4 mixers with the same grenade :
� Plots
� Economy burst
� More free time for the full-time GMs
� The 'puppeteers' would still play, but with just a bit more resources and responsabilities.

The main problem with that Xeethot is that it would mean that a player would have multiple characters. One with a virtually unlimited budget.

One sees some serious problems with this really quickly.

What I meant was that the player would change characters. His atual character could be placed on $void or something and change the password for the months/years the player puppets the NPC. That's why I said semi-GM.

He would put his character into cryogenics and you would change that char's password for the time being. Once he resigns the post as a semi-GM the character is unlocked so he can go back and play. Or even in most cases the character a person has could become the puppet.

For instance Tylissa could become the head of NLM's 'Newspaper' when she played. Hiring people, working things out, bribing the gangers into creating news. Or she could have her character placed into $void and get into Jillian (remembered her name)

It could be a step up for the character both ICly and OOCly or a good vacation or ever perma-death. I think some people that are bored would give away their characters for the new position.

(Edited by Xeethot at 12:48 pm on Aug. 23, 2004)

Its up to players to take on those positions.

Its up to them to take on the initiative by creating or using there character(s) towards that disposition.

If your not happy with your character, do something about it.


Reef.


(Edited by ReeferMadness at 1:33 pm on Aug. 23, 2004)

Hmm..  all interesting ideas and points..  Something I'm wondering about however is whether or not the GMs would allow -any- Player-Controlled character to gain that much power anymore.  I'm not really sure of the reasons behind it, but I have a feeling it may have something to do with some past player characters and how they took advantage of the situation.

Meh.  I feel like I'm treading a thin line here.  Anyway, in order for someone to have this much power ICly, I think the admin would have tohave some amount of trust in the player OOCly.

Mehr.  I don't know where exactly I was going with this anymore.  *poof*

Its up to players to take on those positions.

Its up to them to take on the initiative by creating or using there character(s) towards that disposition.

That's correct.

And the reason is: If a player can't do this with their existing character, why should they be entitled to more power and less restrictions? These things are reserved for thoes who do demonstrate that they have a superior ability, and that by giving them more power and less restrictions, they could do more good. You don't reward thoes who don't put in the effort to move beyond their current situtation…

Being a GM of any stature requires communication with the staff on an admin basis: The minute this happens, they cease being players, and are GM's. From here on out, their entire role takes a dramatic shift from what's fun for them to what's best for the game. This requires effort on both the GM's side and the rest of the staff. If the rest of the staff is putting in this effort, we need more than just a uber-player out of it: We need a full fledged GM capable of doing all the things GM's do. And let me tell you: That's a lot more than any player could immagine.

And the reality is that very few people succeed in making this switch. There's usually a transition period involved, and sometimes they arn't able. Usually when this happens the worst that comes of it is they stop logging in.

Players are perfectly capable of doing all the things you mentioned except for 'switching' their character without doing any of the things required to be a GM. They can be leaders of the arts of sinners, or hold a high position at a corperation.

The problem is: No one tries. Or if they do, they fail and don't bother to try again. Only the rare few who don't stop trying even when they've failed succeed (or die trying). If there's one thing I could impress upon you it would be: Never say never, and never take no for an answer. If you set a goal, and don't stop until you've achieved it or your dead, you'll be a lot more satisfied.

Unless you make the switch from being a player to a GM, you've not made the switch from being about your fun to being about the game's best interest. And no inbetween state can exist in that space, or there WILL be a conflict of interest (I need not name names for examples here).

The REAL problem I see with oldbies: They stop setting goals for themselves. If you're bored with your player, set one final goal: To go out in a blaze of glory. Chances are you'll have a blast doing it.

Iga said: Or if you are really smart, you let the character die and move on to the next character.

And sometimes I think we would be doing people a great service if we required this of them (again, I won't name names, but there's some people who absolutely refuse to learn this lesson and insist on being consistantly frustrated and bored with the game because they still have the mindset of 'power is fun and starting over isn't').

Of course thinking we should require this of people, and executing on it are two different things. At best we can suggest it to them.

-Kevlar

The other problem with Xeethots idea is, the person logging into the NPC would probably only be able to play the NPC -like- a player plays there character.  And if they took over as the head of NLM.. they would still need massive GM support.  The head of NLM sure as fuck isn't going to do things himself.  The same with the head of a gang.  Mostly there going to sit on there throne and do nothing.  

Now, you could say, well, they could be lower tier people.  Well, the player could just as easily (If they applied themselves) work there way up to that level with there current character.  So the whole position would be pointless. It would just cause more GM Cycles (?) to be used.   And take away the RP of actualy acheiving something!

And sometimes I think we would be doing people a great service if we required this of them (again, I won't name names, but there's some people who absolutely refuse to learn this lesson and insist on being consistantly frustrated and bored with the game because they still have the mindset of 'power is fun and starting over isn't'). [\quote]

Don't I know this… sad when to have "fun" you need to be the most powerful... or you just can't say goodbye.  Happens to some of the best RPer's too.

I just thought of a great idea to breathe life back into the playerbase and life into those oldbies who get bored, frustrated, enraged, and leave.


CHARACTER TIME LIMITATIONS!

Yes, I said it! A term limit on how long you can have your character! 48 months sounds like a nice high maximum, because lord knows that after 4 years in the MIX you are uber and bored anyhow, so hell, maybe it is time to take that long walk. Time to vanish into the mix. Time to go out in a bang of fucking glory.

Or something.

What do you think all? Good idea or what! I can think of nothing more motivating than a deadline! You are sitting about in your cube for two years, well, tick tock mofo, you are wasting valuable time with this character.

Busy in the mix all the time? Good for you. Three and a Half years old and running out of opposition around you that is worhty of your attention? BORING! So tough not even your mother and half the active roster of TERRA can take you down? BORING!

You look up and see that end of the character term and think 'Hey, six months aint a big deal, time to plan my big going away so I become a part of Withmore City history, like that Lucifer guy!'


Bad. Bad idea. Horrible.

A character deserves to last as long as he can survive, and as long as the controller feels they should last. The only things that should ever end a character should be IC circumstances, or the controller deciding.

I know how an oldbie character can get old, but sometimes all someone needs is a break.

I definitely think this would be a bad idea. If there were actually some kind of time limit like this, I'd probably quit playing.

Not that I think I have any influence, I'm just saying.

I agree with lotus, I mean if you just say "Okay here is how long your gonna live, On your mark get set go."
Al your gonna do is make people really upset when they do start over, I mean imagine yourself one of the greates characters in the MIX and then one day your the little scum shit eatin all the shit that your past charcter could eat for breakfast -bad idea- I mean a char by char sort of thing could be done and if you were two years running and were powerful as all get out then maybe you should consider doing something with that, start a revolt do something I dont care but when you have something good you dont want to give it up. For anybody to say yes to this is like saying that I would like to give up my nice stats, big account and all the contacts and friends I got so I can go back to nothing. The point of this game is to survive right? Survive and get richer than hell while your at it, but if you put a time limit on it you say "You will only survive until… right .. now dead new character, bring the next one through."
I don't see the idea as half bad… On a certain level, it would motivate a player to get into the game. Even 2 years is a decent lifespan... and 48 months is four years. Yes, that's Years.
Come on. It's not like we're talking: "You have 3 weeks to become mob boss or we smoke your ass with wood chips! Oh. BTW, you have 100chyen in your pocket and a filthy rag to cover your naughty bits. Ready? set...? Gogogo!....

*ponders this idea for a while*
hrmmm...

Anyways....

You wander off the moo for too long and you get reaped...  You spend x months not really doing anything other then idling, pick pocketing and buying/selling gear from, to and for the same people you've always bought and sold gear from, to and for. ...  You just spent x months doing just that while NewbieBob dies at 3 weeks after having started a intergroup war which rages on past his/her/its death and sweeps up a ton of players into its wake. Or maybe you play some MiddleLife chars so well that most of the playerbase�s RP revolves around your fate in one form or another? Long life doesn�t automatically equate to legend�

If you're now thinking "For the love of all things holy, what is her fucking -point-?" Uhm... only this:
Maybe Iga's idea of an all powerful Death Knell is a bit too extreme for some people to swallow. How about: "After xx amount of time we hope you'll have done -something- memorable with those uber stats."

After 48 months your char comes up for review and you talk to a GM or two: How have you spent your time? How do you feel you contributed to the world? Do you think you're in a rut? If you have any future plans/hopes for the char and maybe just maybe the possibilities of a big, banging, fireworks loaded, exit scene while things are still all tastey fresh? I guess that would put undue pressure on GM's yet again but... eh, *shrugs.* Supposedly it's been done a few times with variouse degreas of success with some of the very long lived chars out there.

Simply surviving in the Dome is -NOT- (oh my god how can I put more emphasis on that -one- word) hard… it really really fucking isn't.

This has been brought to you by the letters T and coconut RUM. Fuck yes.

Coconut Rum.

Up for review. I like it.
*puts everyone over 4 weeks old 'officially on review'*

Muwahahahahaaaa…

*Inks up his DENIED stamp and waves it menacingly through the air*
YES! Who's first!?!
I think it's a good idea. But seeing how many people are opposed to it already, maybe for those few that make it 4 years in the mix they could have the option of speaking with the admins about starting over.

I don't think starting over would be a bad thing.

I personaly enjoy making a new character and making friends all over again.

Who really thinks that 4 years isn't long enough to have fun?

But maybe we have to look at the other side of it. It's not all about combat. Being invincible in combat wouldn't ruin your RP, well unless -all- of your RP is based around combat. Heheh.

I dunno.  I think older characters can get alot done.  I mean, there -is- always someone to challange them, even if there weaker stat/skill wise..

I mean.. this isn't a MUD right?  It's about deep plots, and subtle manipulations!  If you can't beat a person in a one on one fair fight.  Then don't -fucking- fight them like that.

Just ruin there rep, or break up there marriage.  Get them fired, or hire a hitman to kill them.  Hire a group of 12 newbs to pwn him.  

I think a lot of role playing can come from trying to take down an ultra tough character that has mad IC connections and 12 suits of xo3 battle mesh.

People look at getting old as a bad thing.  I think the oldbies just get too comfortable with killing people.  My character is getting on in days, and I think i'm to comfortable with killing people.  

Sometimes leaving people alive creates much more RP.   I think oldbies give newbies a glimpse at what they could be.. I think it motivates them to start thinking outside the box.  I know it did for me, when I first started.  

I'm rambling.. its late.. I don't think any of that made sense.

Good point nemisis… I change my vote...

*chuckles*

Most of what challanges an oldbie isn't something that springs from the player base.  And we're not talking 2-3 years here, it's 4 years living in the mix, and being ue'd as hell, I could get into the whole moo space argument (old characters take up alot of moo space from what I understand) but it's not really about that.  It's about being able to actually get that pack of 12 noobs to go against the uber char, rather than half of them work with him then the other half loose thier nerve.  It's about the admin having to fiddle with NPC stats in order to give these uber chars a fight worth fighting, and at the same time keeping the rest of the game balanced for the young characters (think of an oldbie pickpocketing judges and corpies) lord knows the should get caught sometimes, but to make it so the NPC's catch those people (even when the GM's aren't around) would make it so no noob or middlebie stands a chance at getting away with it.  It's all about balance and not just the individual uber char's RP.  Yea they get alot done, but an uber char needs to be in a position where what they do, creates jobs and RP for all, rather than just the GM's RPing with them to keep them entertained.  And as Iga mentioned, your character would be reviewed, if your doing things we like, and are -good for the moo- as a whole, of course we'll let you stick around for a bit longer, or at the very least come up with an ending for your character that will be remembered in the MOO.  Precedence has been made, if you've ever been to sterling memorial plaza ingame you'll know what I'm talking about.  That character has had thier presence as immortralized on the moo as it can get.  yep so I've taken to rambling, and I don't use paragraphs hehe so all you get is blobs of text.  not to easy to read I'll give you that but if you take the time you'll see some of what I say makes sense.
I think a review would be a terrible idea.  That would be WAY too subjective.  You really want to piss someone off:  Tell them that the charcter they have been playing is no longer worthy of the moo.  Wetaher it is or not that's gonna piss some people off, people that have the skill/desire to have hung out for 4 years,  we don't have a huge playerbase to begin with, we don't need to alinate our prime players.  

I -do- however think that the 4 year rule is an AWESOME idea.  

Go one step further.  Maybe we could store the 4 year old charcters until we have 10-15 of them, then either

A: re-release them for another, shorter peroid of time, since there are so many they can balance eachother out. (ok that's not that great of an idea.)

B: wait till we have a bunch of uber charcters and  have a uber moo.  I know there would be issues with server space on this one so maybe charge or something.

C: hell if nothing else just let them hang around for Rampage MOO. from time to time.


Main point is:  If space for charcters isn't a HUGE issue, then just sideline them until you can think of something fun to do with them.  NPC maybe…  but maybe not totally eliminate them.

Hi again…
I really like the idea of review - it's something you should be doing on your own anyways (reviewing where you've been, where you're at, and where you're going to, I mean). Having a GM, a certified 'know what I'm doing' personage, to bounce your thoughts off of can't hurt, right? It's not like they're your boss and are going to fire you...

Personally, I would find the prospect of starting a new character over a challenge - if you've made good on one character, that should have built up your confidence enough to make you think you'd be able to stand up to the challenge of starting over again.
Of course, there's always going to be the melancholy 'what if's if that happens...and probably a lot of people thinking up ideas for RP that they're convinced would have worked with their ex-character...
...but hey, wouldn't that be cool, because then you'd have the chance to set up that great plot for someone else just starting out who has a character similar to your ex-character?

I also feel that while I would like this idea of starting all over again, there's something really neat about having a character you can just 'take a break' from....certain times of year I have to take just those sort of break, and when I come back I find myself full of ideas to revamp an old character, essentially changing everything about them while maintaining their contacts and such in the city. The ability to come back to an oldbie character like that is something not to be underestimated, I think....

Ok so...
Yeah.

I wouldn't complain, I really wouldn't. But if this does go into implementation, you just know that for all the work you're saving yourselves by not dealing with oldbie chars, it's just going to come back at you threefold with people whining and demanding an explanation when their first character gets 'old' and needs to be retired..everyone's going to beg to be an exception.

I just don't get what jotun means when he says a 4 year plan is a good idea but a review is a bad one.  They're part of the same plan really.  If your character is hoppin, got all kinds of IC things going on and people relying on him for work, or to resolve a plot, of course a review is gonna say, 'it'd be a good idea for him to stick around for a little while longer'  if he's just logging on to Idle and read the grid, then we say, 'think it'd be a good idea if your character came to some glorious end, or if they found themselves on the first shuttle to chicago, or neo york.'  

The review wouldn't say, alright your character's no more, we're reaping him as we speak, have a nice day and rememeber SD for your RPing needs.  If it's IC for your character to leave the city, it's completely doable, has been done, and will be done again no doubt.  

I even kind of like the idea of ubers taking a break till we get a good little flock of them waiting to return, problem is with you people, Grudged don't hold from where I'm standing.  Everyone wants to make nice and not perm anyone.  

People realize that players get attached to thier characters, and loose sight of what's IC, working hard OOC'ly to find reason's to explain why not to kill someone.  

Someone steals your girl, hate thier fucking guts, get a group of people together, pay them to help you and drive the fucker into hiding.  Maybe he's able to get some people to come to his aid, now we got two good little groups going at it, hating eachothers guts, and talking mad shit to eachother over SIC and the Grid.

–eep gotta run this is unfinished so to speak, maybe finish it at work if the network is working.

I even kind of like the idea of ubers taking a break till we get a good little flock of them waiting to return, problem is with you people, Grudged don't hold from where I'm standing.  Everyone wants to make nice and not perm anyone.  

People realize that players get attached to thier characters, and loose sight of what's IC, working hard OOC'ly to find reason's to explain why not to kill someone.  

Someone steals your girl, hate thier fucking guts, get a group of people together, pay them to help you and drive the fucker into hiding.  Maybe he's able to get some people to come to his aid, now we got two good little groups going at it, hating eachothers guts, and talking mad shit to eachother over SIC and the Grid.


Bix  THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!  I notice that going on WAY THE FUCK TOO OFTEN.   There are multiple people out there that do this, and I've seen people who have the potental to have all-star charcters just have avarage shlocky ones for this spcific reason.  PLAY CONSISTANTLY FOR FUCK'S SAKE.  and not only that, think about how you personally would react, and another thing I do is think about things I've done after I did them, like a summary of the RP for the previous night.  One of the biggest questions I think about is.. did I act like a human being, or some fantasy, cartoony, unrealistic video game.  You can probibaly guess which one I go for.  

Anyway on to the subject at hand.   The review would be EXCELLENT in a perfect world where people can see all of their own flaws and be told of them, and evaluate them in a healthy way, but that's not always the case.   Not to mention, all in all it will be an OPINION.  maybe bob the goat ninja thinks that wordering around killing and stealing but not really contributing in many other ways is the pimp shit, good, fun way to RP.    It would open the door wide for GM/ADMIN interpertation, and hence judging your RP.   If you have a charcter that's 4 years old and all he does is read the globe, buy a drink now and then, and maybe RP once every few months, who cares if he's not super active, as long as he'not rping in a way that negatively effects the moo, then let him play for 10 frickin years.

The oldbies that should go in my opinion are the ones that have combat stats out the ying yang.  I could continue explaining more in depth here but I think my examples may hit too close to home for some oldbies out there.

I really haven't played SD long enough to have a complete understanding of how oldbie's rock out. But as a recovering twink from another game, I can say that using IC means to "feed the community" especially new players who need that first shove out of the nest is very easy for oldbie's to do. Unfortunetly, Oldbie's can also be capable of destroying the community by butchering the masses. I hate being so cliche, but with great power comes great responsibilty.

Regarding "uber-ness", there are layers and layer of powers within' the city. I always figured they would reveal themselves as my character grew in power, because if your a badass motherfucker some other badass motherfucker is gonna know about you. I'm not saying that the CJ should be walking the streets busting skulls, but for every action there is a reaction.

This is purely speculative and based of personal experience in other games, I don't know enough to really critique the matter but I figured I'd just toss out my 2 chy.

Yur all on crack.

Let's weigh up exactly how much time is spent by players looking for RP and no one is logged in or no one is on the street. Let's formulate an equation based on time spent in that regard and balance that against actual days-alive of a character. Then we will have a real gauge of a character's 'age'.

And I can say this because of time zones. GMs can't be on 24/7 and most people can't spend 6-8 hours logged in to this game.

Probably each case is subjective, a blanket 4 year knock off point is unrealistic.

This is my opinion on perming.  I don't like it.  I feel -bad- doing it.  If I -can- find an -IC- reason not to perm someone, then I do my best to go with it.  I don't see perming as positive RP.  The character is -gone-, no more RP from that character.  

Everyone is talking about oldbies and there uber combat stats, and how thats bad.  Well, why is it bad?  Because they can perma your ass anytime they want?  Well if It's IC for them to do it, then whats the problem?  

The same people that are saying oldbies with uber combat stats should be retired, are saying the perming is good.  Well, due to the smaller player base we have, and the crazy diffrent time zones we all play from, its pretty hard to get a sizeable group together in order to act out any large scale perma plot.  Therefore its basicly only the older, combat stat characters that -can- perm anyone.  Or the older richer characters that can hire an older combat stat character to do the perming.

I mean everyone always bitches about characters being strong, and then I hear the same people bitching about how noone ever perms anyone.  

It seems the two views, in my opinion, are conflicting.  Then people say, well Oldbies can definitly help out newbie characters with work and all that.  

Well that, in my opinion isn't IC either.  Why the hell should an old character higher an incompetent newbie to try and do something (and probably fail, or quit playing before he finishes), when they could just do it themself?  Especialy mixer characters that need -all- the money they can get, why would they -spend- money on someone, if they can just get it done themself.  

Why?  Because it helps the game.  It makes everyone happier.  Just liked not perming characters when you don't really have too helps the game in my opinion.  

But if everyone thinks that being IC all the time is better then letting things slide, I'll go with it..

I think both sides have valid points, but

"Well that, in my opinion isn't IC either.  Why the hell should an old character higher an incompetent newbie to try and do something (and probably fail, or quit playing before he finishes), when they could just do it themself?  Especialy mixer characters that need -all- the money they can get, why would they -spend- money on someone, if they can just get it done themself.  "

I've played characters that do just that. Why? Becuase it helped people (mainly newbs) get off the floor and into the game. And that is good for all.


On Perming….Like Bix said. If someone slept with your girl while you were out getting gangbanged by Badland monsters...slice and dice..
Somone jacked off all over your Mono while you were updateing...Lock and load..
Someone throws your best buddy off of WA...break out the bats and V.. Don't try and buddy up with them.

Quote: from Lena on 7:05 pm on Nov. 1, 2004[br] Having a GM, a certified 'know what I'm doing' personage, to bounce your thoughts off of can't hurt, right?

If I had a dollar for every time I've told a player they were being a tool and been bitched at over xhelp for an hour or three I'd never have to work again. (I'd invest wisely…)

*winks*

And Perming is a good thing. Though perhaps it is too difficult.

Perhaps we should make it easier...or make the side effects of cloning more apparent. Should we increase the occurance and grittiness of Degenerative Clone Disease? Make it more common? More dangerous? Harder to treat? A higher occurance of DCD may just be the key to easier permings on all sides of the equation, newbie and oldbie.

And there are some very simple REASONS one hires someone else to do your dirty work. (And they are IC even!)

1) Clean hands don't need to be washed.

2) Street Reputation - at a certain point you become a kingpin, and a kingpin only fucks up someones face when it is personal.

3) To set someone up.

4) Character Aura. There is an Aura to a character. Anyone who's played with Nicad knows this, there is a feel to him, a general nature that flows into a room about 3 seconds before he enters. Never underestimate the power of your characters Aura. Paying other players is one hell of a way to build up particular types of Aura.

5) Because you are Fronting. You wanna seem like hotter shit than you are? You pay other people to do the shit that you wouldn't do if you had the money to pay people to do that shit you hate. Even when you can't afford to.

6) -I-M-A-G-E-

7) To get someone under your control.

8) To get a group of someones under your control. You may be uber, but you gotta sleep at some point. Life is better when you have paid lackies to do things for you when you are passed out on MrC and Vanilla Silk.

9) To ruin someone elses network of lackies. You basically fuck up the economy for someone else by over paying your lackies, and then someone elses lackies jump ship to you, then you crush that someone else and hang your lackies out to dry. Or 'right size' your black market corporation.

10) Because you are a nice character and care about your fellow man....*snicker*


See, all sorts of reasons. All IC. If you are just hiring someone to pay them because you want to help 'the game ecomomy' that is...well... lame. That is one of the roots of Fluffy Bunny Syndrome.

You should be paying people to do things because you need to have a certain IMAGE in the mix. Or you �need to CHANGE your IMAGE in the mix. Or you need to get a JOB done. Or you need to fuck up someone ELSES job.

You dig?

Paying someone to make you clothing just to spread the wealth around is, sorry to say this, pointless. It does not further your character, or the environs of the game. It just breeds an environment in which players become dependant upon people to be charitable or 'giving'. And I tell you what, Cyberpunk ain't 'CHARITABLE' or 'GIVING'.

*goes out to Staples and purchases a giant 'UP FOR REVIEW' stamp and ink pad*

You've got awesome points Iga, and I agree with them.  I'll start thinking about those points more while I RP my character.
Yeah. Same here. Damn grocery stores putting things into perspective. :P

Perhaps we should make it easier…or make the side effects of cloning more apparent.  

People jump out of the tanks as if they just took a refreshing pee. I mean it doesn't have to be RPd as agonising but come on… You just got reconstituted from goo...

It's 2am and i've got another bout of insomnia so... mulling this over...
Tiered Clone packages?

I personally think the whole clone system needs a good revamp but i'm aware that that's a hell of a lot of work and not something that is on the list or will be anytime soon due to just how much work -would- be involved. So that's the last I'll say about that and I'll now go watch whatever ancient episode of SNL is being broadcast on the TV.

oh my... Meatloaf on SNL...  ... ah the good old days when the singers still sorta.. sung....

Quote: from Bias on 1:14 am on Nov. 3, 2004[br]
oh my… Meatloaf on SNL... �... ah the good old days when the singers still sorta.. sung....

Sorta being the key term in this instance :bugeyed:

I was wondering if anyone believed it to be time for me to leave.

I'm not sure if the admin would approve of me asking this (and I know many of you don't even really know who my currect character is.. �and if you do, please don't say anything about him/her on here), but I was really wondering what those of you who do know who my current character is thought about this.

This goes for admin and players, alike. �I'd just like some feedback. �I try my damnedest to get stuff rolling at times, but everyone must remember that I am not in a position to know everything, or know exactly what needs to be done.

If any admin think this post should not be here, please feel free to delete it. �But please hit me up sometime and let me know your thoughts on it as well.

For some reason, I get the impression most everyone is talking about me.

(Edited by Aikao at 7:55 pm on Nov. 3, 2004)

Aikao, to be honest, I think that you're a good example of how an oldbie SHOULD be played.  

I don't think I'm breaking any rules here, because the information is on @profile and thus publically available, but I played a character that was considered toward his end as an oldbie. This  December would have been his 3rd in the MOO. To me, it was a great accomplishment.  Don't get me wrong, I know there are money that have been / still are older. But my former character and Aikao's were approximately the same age (I think he was like 2 months older?), and as my character was semi-recently permed, I feel I can offer some input.

If you want and end, bug the admin to make sure it happens. I personally got tired of waiting for what I was promised(this is in no way a poke at the Admin, I know many things took precedence and I was impatient), and my char. ended up dying when his rent ran out.  Not a great end to a character who, I thought, had a good long history of RP. Do NOT let this happen to you.

If you don't want to stick around, make it end right or you'll be kicking yourself like I am.

And if you want to stick around, give Ike's player a chat, he knows how to do it right.

If you want to know how to do it wrong, I can direct you appropriately as well ;)

As far as I know of Ike's character, he shouldn't be gone. I agree with Lotus when he said "I think that you're a good example of how an oldbie SHOULD be played." You do stir up things, generate RP for others and don't complain of being bored. You find stuff to do and pursue RP as all of us do (or should do).

To summon up : two thumbs up.

If you want to know how to do oldbie wrong, look at:

[EDITED FOR CONTENT BECAUSE IGA KNOWS BETTER THAN TO POST THESE NAMES BECAUES HE WILL GET IN SHIT]

*cough*

[admin]

come on, let me say it! LET ME SAY IT!

MURPHY! GERIK!

[/admin]

Quote: from Bixby on 5:40 am on Nov. 3, 2004[br]
Quote: from Bias on 1:14 am on Nov. 3, 2004[br]
oh my… Meatloaf on SNL...  ... ah the good old days when the singers still sorta.. sung....

Sorta being the key term in this instance :bugeyed:

my god bixby, i hope that you didn't take me seriously.

Anyways. Back. To. Topic. sorta.

it's never too late for people to learn from others. even a few direct words can make someone who's intently focused in on their own shit stand back and take a look at how they've been doing things.  plus i don't think any one person is in any position to pass judgment on someone elses RP. Be they Oldbe, Newbe, Middlebe, Nanobe or even Eonbe.  
i guess what i advocate is for there to be communication. collaberation and respect.

but now…
*eyes Iga*

hot lemon ink frugen nuegen?

(Edited by Bias at 2:32 am on Nov. 5, 2004)

Shit..  Am I up for review yet?
Negative.
Quote: from Nemisis on 5:40 am on Nov. 1, 2004[br]I dunno.  I think older characters can get alot done.  I mean, there -is- always someone to challange them, even if there weaker stat/skill wise..

Just looked over this thread and found this.  How many people know he's right?

Muahahahaha..  I don't expect you to talk, Mr. Bond..  I expect you to die!

:raises his hand.  

Unfortunately it's not always that way.  I won't say anything about recent events (cause it's too IC) other than much fun is goin on lately and if your not involved it's probibaly your fault.

Truth.

More people should sign on and get sucked into it against their will.

EDIT:  And I wouldn't say its unfortunate that its not always this way.  I like to see the balance shift back and forth.

(Edited by Chaos at 9:40 pm on Nov. 30, 2005)

My computer crashed, spent hours fixing it, and now im re-downloading the client so I can come one and kick the balance in the nutsack.


Don't be afraid of characters with jumbo stats. Find their weakness, and drop a nuke on it. EVERYONE has a weakness…

Hmmm. Weaknesses.
*waves*

(…against their will, indeed.)

Oh, and I'd like to apologise to, uh, people, for not being around so much. Real life is kicking me in the head these days.

Wow does that building in the background of your avatar look like a middle finger..

sorry, I just had to say it.
Yeah, I'm feeling my age and meh…I know all you silly old bastards are always complaining...but shit is proper. :werd:

I'm not around half as much as I'd like to be and newb's are working it well. Very well.

Well, I think it's picked up quite a bit over the last few month, atleast for myself.  And I admit, I'm liking it more and more, makes me remember why I got addicted to this game oh so many years ago.  Course I still think I might be among one of the oldest noobs to the game. God and a few others know I sure act like it occassionally.


Yeah, this place has certainly picked up as of late.  It's been very interesting, and trying to guage where it's going is certainly hard…but to say if it's getting better or worse.  Man that's hard...we have so few admin these days.  Don't get me wrong, Chaos, Wren, Slither...maybe FS, you guys been kickin balls.  I owe you much thanks for many hours of entertainment.  But I'd like to see the Grid again, to surf the nodes, to for no particular reason make a new Grid-alias and start spam-mailing everyone about how I plan to do them in...c'mon, where's the Johnny?  

And if he's not up to the task, get someone who is, I read back that Damon is interested...

Better.  Definitely.  I've had more fun these past 100 days than I've had playing other more graphically intense games.

Just two chyen from a returning midbie :)

Grim

The grid is due to a hard drive problem… something Johnny is working on when he can but is a very difficult job.

Sometimes we've hit a bit of lag at times... alot of that was due to the hard drive trying to access something that is no longer tehre.

There's only so much we can do with code and grid stuff... heh. We're working on it, trust me.

Except for a few trivial things, I think SD has gotten better over all. I don't get the same excitment out of it as I did when I was first learning the game, the genre, etc, but really, who keeps it?

I'd love to see more factions, cliques, etc. (I know a good few OOCly, but I'm saying it would be cool to see the obvious ones)

More gang violence. Gang life is a big part of the mix in my opinion, as people need to band together for money, protection, power. All the gangs should @hate their rival gangs and should be breaking their teef open in hopes of getting their money and power and expaning their turf and ranks.

The WJF is another big power player that is only really doing anything (again, anything obvious to the entire player population) When a PC is active on the force. There should be more food riots atleast. (And I know we've been doing alot of have been given alot, but being restricted to GOLD and the upper levels are pretty boring without GM intervention or some random punk jay walking)


I also think drugs should be made illegal, as one post by King-Fu outlines in the idea thread.

Yeah, that's my rant out of boredome. Feel free to pick it apart and tell me I'm wrong heh.

Hmm, yeah, the WJF needs to have a stronger presence, and not being able to go to RED without -everyone- knowing and thus getting in trouble with your boss cuz your not allowed down there sucks..

And I like the 'all drugs are illegal' idea…lots.  Tired of them damn hippies snorting their drugs in public :P

Personally, I am no longer going to play SD as much, if at all due to the way some of the things have gone in SD. The RP seems to be stale and redundant as of late, and it seems like everyone is just trying to build stats to beat the game. I've also noticed more fluffy bunnyness in the past three months then in the three or so years I've been playing here. I'm not trying to say I am teh authority of teh RPzes or anything, just giving my personal opinion. Take it however you'd like.
Aye, there is much fluffy-bunny, but your not doing it so what's to complain about?
Fluffy Bunny effects everyone. Even the people who aren't "Fluffy bunny" …

Just b/c Bio isn't as soft as a fluffy bunny doesn't mean he isn't affected by someone else's fluffy bunny-ness.  His complaint is very valid. Why would he complain if he was fluffy bunny? that should be the question.

Cyberpunk is not all compliments and hugs. Its dark, it pushes envelopes, its not love, but lust. Its not genuine, its superficial. Who can be my tool for today?

When someone who doesn't understand the genre fully begins to play and is all fluffy bunny it effects everyone they have RP with, and the people those effected directly RP with. It's a rippling effect much like dropping a coin in a body of water. The Fluffy Bunny effects everyone, though it may lessen as the directness is lost, but it ripples out into the entire MOO.

Betray everyone.
Fluffy bunnies are totally tasty

*dusts off his hands*

Guess my work here is done.  Just tryin to fuck with your game by bein as damned fluffy bunny as I can.  Running around shooting things is tiring.  NOT A SINGLE ONE OF YOUR CHARS has anything my char is interested in.  So sure, he does do fluffy bunny, but I don't wanna hear no bitchin, as he's given out plenty of damned fine RP if I do brag so myself.

Hey, I didn't say this should be hack'n'slash kill-crazy stat-mongering UE-whoring piss fest.  Just saying its not all hugs and kisses.  

Case in-point: My last character Kit/Kalea/Allie/Katherine … She was not a combat oriented character at all. She had roots in a skill she could use to get by, and all of her life in the game was bent on one thing, finding out information on her past. She had a great plot with thanks to the Admin and she never got to see the end of that story arc.

Now sure, I did -some- combat with her, but only so she could defend herself. She rarely ever started any physical fights herself. In the end she was the kind of character that would report a known "non"mixer for being a mixer and faking a crime to have him fined. She had her friends and the ones she cared enough about to know they would make useful allies and better tools when the time came, and she had her share of enemies. The plot and story surrounding her was very CP-ish IMO and she didn't go around killing everything she saw, and she was still not any sort of fluffy bunny.

Well, my apologies, I got a little aggitated.  Allow me to give you my perspective on one thing though.

Take my character, yes, he has ze fluff going on,  but, at the same time, he gets gritty, he's done his fair share of CP.  He will bust your ass if he can and your char deserves it.  BUT he's not stupid and neither am I.  I'm not about to send him to RED alone so you guys can kill him off easily so you can get your CP jollies (tool, your excluded).  The chars he is up against, he knows he stands little chance fighting alone, he's tried and died ALOT (and..after the first 2-3 times you learn, hey this guy is a badass, I'ma need backup),  and unfortunately I can't get any backup half the time.  So, while I wait for support, gonna hafta take the fluff cuz I'm tired of him being brave and dying for no reason.

Quote: from Damarung on 12:58 am on Oct. 20, 2006[br]Well, my apologies, I got a little aggitated. �Allow me to give you my perspective on one thing though.

Take my character, yes, he has ze fluff going on, �but, at the same time, he gets gritty, he's done his fair share of CP. �He will bust your ass if he can and your char deserves it. �BUT he's not stupid and neither am I. �I'm not about to send him to RED alone so you guys can kill him off easily so you can get your CP jollies (tool, your excluded). �The chars he is up against, he knows he stands little chance fighting alone, he's tried and died ALOT (and..after the first 2-3 times you learn, hey this guy is a badass, I'ma need backup), �and unfortunately I can't get any backup half the time. �So, while I wait for support, gonna hafta take the fluff cuz I'm tired of him being brave and dying for no reason.


don't be brave, bro. Be smart.

Fluffy is being nice to everyone you meet. Nodding to the first person you see walking into the bar for no reason, then offering to buy them a drink. Complimenting someones nice dress then hugging them. Holding hands and skipping down the street. Makes me wanna puke.

Hehe, well, fortunately my char doesn't hold hands or skip.  And he doesn't treat everyone nice, he has his enemies and he treats them like shit innit enemies?  But, there are chars in the game he's attached to.  And well, my char's just the nicest guy, even though he's had his moments *winks at Biohazard in particular*  Too bad you didn't get to -see- em hehe.
Fluff is when you get mad that you've been fucked over, because either it's not 'fair' or you were 'setup' ICly. Fluff is not looking at every single person and saying, why am I talking to them, why am i helping them, WHAT am -I- getting out of it.

Some characters help other characters because it's their job (IE: A judge helping a corpie, or a corpie helping a Judge, that is IC)

I'm talking about someone walks into a bar, there fresh into the dome, and everyone is liek HAY GUY WANT TO KNOW WHERE TO FIND A JOBZ!?

You should be saying: HAY GUY WANT TO KNOW WHERE TO FIND A JOBZ!?

But thinking: SO I CAN GET MY CUT BITCH!

There are CP ways to help people.  Take a cut.  Make them owe you.  Make them do something YOU don't want to do.

I'm not so sure I've seen this 'fluffy-bunny' syndrome to be honest of late that people are whinging about, in the last 2 months, clear IC lines between two groups of people have formed (Maybe longer) And people are getting shot at left right and center, I mean, even my character could be described as 'fluffy-bunny' sometimes if you really looked at it, but I look at it this way, everyone has -some- friends they wouldn't fuck over no matter how much chyen unless it was a matter of life or death.

In short, it's much less fluffy-bunny then say..the days of the Javatrix (Oldbie 4 win!)

You've all got dryer sheets stuck to you.  I'm here to bring the static cling to the fluffy whites.

Re: topic name

1-Is this a trick question?

2-Compared to what?

No, for real, I'm done hating. Things aren't really that bad.

…just kidding.

But LOTUS! Who will I argue with?