Perma/Large Pads

Here are some questions that strike me:

1. The IC justification for people with large and permanent pads often do not make a lot of sense. Do we care? In parts of the game that are status-obsessed, it can be a weird dissonance, since Player A may be hustling hard for something that Player B has with no effort.

2. There's been statements from staff about large/perma pads becoming faction rewards. What is the appropriate timing on that, understanding that individual circumstances will vary? Is that something you get after a few months of exceptional work for a faction? A year-plus? Multiple years? Also, when does that 'clock' start -- syndicate membership, for instance, is the culmination of a career, but someone isn't likely to spend multiple years in a syndicate. In a corporate job, though, multiple years isn't crazy. On the other hand, people age out of gang membership after 6-12 months.

3. Generally, what should large pads signify? Is the possession of one a 'holy shit this person is mega-powerful' indicator of age? Is it a signifier that 'this person is hot shit at this moment' that comes and goes?

4. If large pads are moving to being status rewards, how do we handle people with perma-pads in that context? If, say, a PC gets rewarded with a Nakatomi pad for being a badass at their company, does it make sense that other PCs get them for nothing? It's not like memberships can buy you other kinds of promotions, so if large pads are 'promotion-like', that creates potential problems. Do there need to be a class of large pads that are 'promotion pads' that are separate from people who have membership large pads so that there's not the sense that people have purchased IC status with a membership?

5. Finally, and this is a staff question, what is the scope of the issue? How many perma-/large-pad players are there out of the active player base? If it's just one or two people, it's not a big deal, but if it's a considerable percentage, it's a larger problem potentially.

And I'm fairly certain our resources can be used in better ways than more and more housing.

I've heard several times people suggest that more pads is not an efficient use of builder resources. I don't know if that's true or not, but I can say that a nicer pad is -- for me, subjectively -- a very powerful IC motivation. So in so far as they are rewards for doing the kinds of things we think people should do in the game, I'm not convinced it is wasted effort.

I could see value to there being two sets of large pads available to minimize IC issues between permapad members getting 'free' IC promotion benefits.

Class 1 might be designated apartment buildings or sections of apartment buildings for permapad members containing large pads, while Class 2 might be all the other large pads, especially the 'cooler' large pads, which are available only as IC rewards.

Then, if someone has a penthouse apartment at say AC (a permapad location) there's less IC of 'what did this brand new immy do to earn the SECRET LAIR (a reward pad location) I have been busting my ass trying to convince CRIME BOSS JOHNSON to give me.

Reward pads also wouldn't necessarily need to be large pads -- they could be other cool locations, even if they don't have six rooms.

Upper floors in existing large apartment buildings would be the best places probably for those 'Class A' apartments.

"if you don't like what that person has, take it from them and make it yours."

Unless I misunderstand, you cannot take one of these pads from someone. Even if you run them out, the pad still belongs to that player.

My issue with the state of large pads isn't about the pads themselves, but, without giving away too much IC information, there are certain tools important for advancement in certain professions that are only available with these pads. Frankly I'd rather see such tools uncoupled from pad size and made available through other means, but so long as they remained coupled together, then I think it is reasonable to request that there be regular means of obtaining them so as not to limit characters in those professions.

Unless somehow I'm mistaken and all this has been changed? I have found no information to suggest that it has at this time, and so I assume the situation remains the same.

It's frustrating on a certain level and I really wish there was any way to acquire these benefits. As Crashdown suggested, take it. But, you can't and there is a profession suffers for it.

As for what I would suggest, offering to refund Perma pads over time might be a way to bring some kind of equity to the game. I get that it was a promise, but when it's something that you can't get otherwise anymore, then it doesn't seem terribly fair or fun for others that might want to try and contribute the same amount for the same benefit.

I do know that custom built permapads from days past do have unique features that don't exist anywhere else. I don't object to this and I'm convinced that they're limited to flavor rather than mechanically skill enhancing gear..

I don't believe getting your hands on the pad is the only way to get your hands on an instance of professionally useful tools.

I'm completely convinced that this is a case of IC misinformation becoming to OOC misniformation.

I'm also convinced that I know specifically what device is being referred to here and I happen to know that what's believed about that particular device (that it's overpowered compared to the over-the-counter version) is not true. It may have been true at some point in the distant past but it was nerfed to bring it into parity with the non-custom, non-unique, non-paytowin version.

I honestly don't know if its owner was told that or not, and even if they were, whether they would have stopped ICly claiming their thing was better. But this should be a good illustration of how IC chatter doesn't reflect OOC reality, and how years can go by with perceptions remaining distorted.

I would object if I did think that permapads granted professionally useful buffs that other players have no way to get other than crashing the pad, but I don't believe that.

The vehicle perma-pads were removed for this reason, they don't "come back" to the player once that character is gone(either perming or moving on or sunsetting or w/e) the way other perma-pads might.

There are a couple left in the game, the players that have them are aware that they will not get them back on their next character, and no new ones are ever going into the game outside of micro-faction / faction use.

No, I can verify that they are indeed in many permapads. Yes, there is one that I know if in a normal apartment (I have not verified, but heard it was ICly). The majority of them that I have used and had access too are located in perma-pads, not regular apartments. They are pretty clear from the specific location and sector that they are located on.

There are a couple in "non-benefit" pads, but I only know of two that qualify for that.

If they are being removed, replaced, or phased out, that would be great. Because it's been a minor frustration that people who will never use these objects, or I suppose skill soft them, are in possession of most of them.

Perma-Pads should be just that. A six room version with no tangible benefits other than 3 more rooms. Again, if this is a PvP game, that kind of has to be the case. Otherwise, whether it's additional security, features, or skill objects, it skews the game. No, not by much, but I am pretty sure I would not be the only one would would jump at the opportunity to replicate that benefit given the chance.

That alone tells you that there is value there beyond cosmetics.

1.

I would much prefer it if it was possible to traditionally rent, earn via IC means or get via membership every class of pad. Large medium and other.

To me this means having a selection of large pads with ICly/OOCly reasonable prices on the door that anyone can walk up to and push rent on. These same large pads can have large memberships applied.

I don't see why larges couldn't follow the same general model as mediums. If you can ICly afford it and find one free, pay up. If you pay for a large membership or have a perma large membership, apply it to one of these just like with mediums.

There will always be special pads without the usual renting options that are for use by factions and the like, and these can be any size or design that makes sense. These ICly earned pads don't need to follow the medium/large molds.

2.

A door is not just a door in my opinion. Not all doors are equal. Even if you ignore that some doors have fancy expensive equipment in them that others have to buy and jealously guard, just accounting for CyberEars means a one door pad is not the same as a multi room pad and that different layouts are more effective than others.

This becomes even more true when you are RPing the proper use of rooms and not having five man tactical planning sessions in the closet as it's the best place security wise.

I really think that some doors have more or less value than others and IC costs don't always favor the better doors. Automatic, larger pads make a more servicable layout more likely, especially when you are taking room descriptions into considerations when RPing.

It's not that you can't be professionally successful without one, it's that in a PvP game, being locked out of a profession benefit because you didn't purchase a perma-pad when it was available just makes it seem unfair and unbalanced. That benefit was not gained for anything other than having money at a given time and a willingness to spend it. If I had thought things were so drastically skewed I certainly would have never pursued and/or continued on that professional path.

Now, that's really good to know what you are saying. I've tried other IC routes to get one and have been denied in the past so it's good to know that there are IC methods to perhaps get one. But to clarify, there have been ways around not having one but they have cost IC resources (favors/cash/etc) that others have not had to spend for the same benefit.

To also clarify, I don't have a problem with perma-pads existing, other than they are denied from anyone else acquiring one any more. I have played with them in the game for long enough that it's not a big enough problem to think that things are so unfair that I can't succeed. It's more of that it's something that comes up every now and again when a new character walks into a perma-pad and has a certain status and benefits that just exist.

(Edited by Celestial at 9:07 am on 2/21/2022)

It's possible that at one time -- perhaps this was the case when legacy rewards were created -- being dead hard was more important in more places. Listening to IC stories about the old days suggest that there was a time when everyone in every sector was involved in comic book rocket launcher combat with Judges Vic Mackey and Chuck Norris.

Now, there are a lot of characters whose combat is mostly social combat, and it is expressed through players' creative writing and ability to compete in the status game, and I think that benefits to people's ability to compete over status can be just as if not more valuable than a Katana +1000 that makes them super-killerous.

I suspect (though don't know for sure) that if large pads were on the market for a one-time cost similar to that of some super-rare high-end weapons, you'd see people flocking to them in droves. If true, that suggests that people's subjective view of their value has mechanical/economic weight.

I don't think that's really what Celestial meant when they talked about mechanical advantage, but I also don't think that the economy (as a rough measure of what players value mechanically) puts zero value on luxury.

Depending on the layout of the pad, you could have more room to run about and hide from intruders in a larger pad. And this is only focusing on size and layout. Not mentioning things like hidden passages, locking spaces, windows and other features that can make one door far more or less valuable than another.

I do agree that once you are comparing medium to large the mechanical differences are fewer but I can not agree that pad size in general makes no mechanical difference. Or that size is the only factor that separates one pad from another.