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Social Issues 85 years in the future
Classism is all that remains


A few times the topic of feminism and racism and sexism and various sexual phobia have come up ICly. I want to make a statement concerning this and answer any questions regarding it.

85 years in the future, these topics have been solved / eradicated / are not a thing. They haven't been a thing for a long time. They are not topics of daily conversation. They are not concerns most people will ever have.

Individual characters can be racist or sexist or some other thing, but society as a whole does not care about your gender or race or sexual preference. It will not effect your wage, it will not effect your treatment by the Law or your ability to get hired at a corporation.

The only thing that matters is the class divide. You are rich or you are poor. You are a corpie or you are a mixer. That's it.

References to modern day pop culture are not acceptable. References to modern day social issues are just as unacceptable. If someone is being racist in character, feel free to be confused and make them feel stupid while making fun of how little money they have. Classism is All.

These are important topics for our real lives but they do not belong in our futuristic cyberpunk world.

-- S

Sexism is still definitely a thing, it's just a lot more subtle.
To clarify. Objectification of women is still a thing. Emphasizing appearance and sexuality, especially when it comes to women, is still a thing. A character once told mine that women get harassed over SIC more than men do. This isn't a complaint, I think objectification and sexuality is a really big part of cyberpunk culture and one which players may use to their advantage. It's also easier to succeed as a woman in Sindome than it is in real life. There is still most definitely a place in Withmore for feminists, however.
My character has been repeatedly mocked by NPCs over the years for his race.

And then there are religious conflicts -- even random SICs refer to them.

Guys, Slither's not saying that these things no longer exist. He's saying no one gives a shit if you are racist/sexist/whatever. It's a part of Cyberpunk culture.

At least, that's what I think he's saying :P

"Individual characters can be racist or sexist or some other thing, but society as a whole does not care about your gender or race or sexual preference."

Aka racists still exist, but it's not in the system.

The important thing to remember here is that if you're gonna be discriminatory, do it in a worldly, cyberpunk way. Corpies should totally judge each other for not having perfect bodies because that's something they can buy. The LTC, if I remember correctly, has interacted a lot with Withmore in the past, so it makes sense that people of that ethnicity would have problems in the city. Discriminate, but be aware of it and make sure it makes sense within the theme. Does that make sense?
I have to agree. I think that sexual preference doesn't matter as a corp citizen. That being said, as far as the sex culture of cyber punk, clubs only hire females. I think it's starting to change how we represent it in game, but I also think that it could be represented better. I also feel that sexual orientation is mostly discriminated because of the whole easier to survive as a woman thing not because of a social issue, like the previous post stated. Just an observation on my end. It's an interesting subject to me.

Sexism/Racism don't exist on a fundamental level. If you claim in-game that you are being prejudiced against, especially by a corp, for your race or sex, you will be stared at like an alien.

Sexism/Racism DO exist on a personal level. People will be racist and sexist against you. This is -fine-. Those people are backwards troglodytes and can be treated as such, this is good. It doesn't mean that those players or NPCs are 'doing it wrong', its just a trait of that specific character.

Sexism/Racism don't exist as SOCIAL ISSUES. Economic importance is the primary SOCIAL ISSUE which leads to prejudice in 2102.

I think what Slither was trying to say is that ORGANIZATIONS don't discriminate, but individuals still do. Gangs and corps alike don't give a shit what gender or sexual identity or ethnicity you are, but -people- still do.
That's not really what he's saying at all. He's saying that on an institutional level, these problems as we know them today no longer exist and any individual characters who hold them are as backwards as the people who call maglevs trains.

Besides, there are all kinds of other more themely avenues of personal prejudice to take that don't just ape contemporary ones. Genetically modified people exist, as do clones, eternalists, survivors of the nuclear holocaust, parkies, LTC communists, fundamentalists, spacers, colonists, desert people, immigrants, cyborgs, biomods, Wreckers fans, cannibals...the social issues of the 22nd century are not the social issues of the 21st century. And even with all of that going on, in Withmore the only thing the system cares about is economic status.

Right from a business perspective okay. I guess the wording of this is confusing to me. Because I think as far as it's been displayed in game I'm not seeing it, as far as gangs businesses, and the like. I personally see this idea or concept represented individually, than from businesses gangs or what have you. Maybe I'm just not getting the connect and am getting it all muddled. Either way I definitely see that corps and businesses don't care.

representing that? not sure how well that's being done in all areas.

My reply was aimed at jwinpeney, a few people replied before I got mine done. Ahem.
Makes sense to me. I stand corrected :)
Let me give some examples of sexism in the Dome:

-SIC catcalling, especially in the Korova Milk Bar

-Calling someone a pussy or cunt (even calling someone a dick can be interpreted positively, and usually refers to overconfidence)

-Feminine characters in "traditional" roles: seamstresses, strippers, secretaries, cashiers, nurses, etc.

I'm sure there are others, feel free to build on this list. Just because it's less severe does not mean it's not a thing, and there's male discrimination too on occasion.

Feminine characters hold positions of power.

Both men and women are objectified.

The insults 'pussy, cunt, dick' don't hold the archaic sexism you're attributing to them. They're generic insults that you're projecting your artefact feelings onto.

Sexism and racism aren't institutes in Withmore. Period.

Institutionalized racism is bad for biz, chummers.
My main question is whether, when -characters- say or do something sexist, racist, anti-LGBT etc., are we going to be looked at from an OOC perspective as if we're the ones in the wrong if we call it out- e.g. 'drawing attention to something that doesn't exist in theme'. It has primarily come up for me ICly in things that are not yet completely mainstream in me trying to realistically imagine how X issue will be viewed 85 years in the future- but that is naturally colored by my views on those issues and how I HOPE they'll be handled 85 years in the future. One such issue came up recently, and I was left feeling like I was in the wrong for my character reacting in X way to other characters whose behavior she perceived as sexist. I obviously can't go into much detail, but how much room is there for IC response to ideas or behaviors your character might consider backward or archaic?
Something tells me that racists and sexists will still exist 85 years from now. And given how hellish the alternate timeline, I'd think there be even more persecution of different groups.
undefined: No. Your character is racist, or hates gays, it stays IC and everyone who looks at you worse OOCly is silly and should feel silly.
What Kuzco said.

One more time - they DO exist in the theme on a -personal level-. If people are calling you out OOCly for playing a racist or a sexist, they're in the wrong.

Honestly, the idea that any discrimination besides classism being eradicated in a capitalist world is class reductionist, and furthermore, ridiculous.
Guerrillo: This isn't a political statement. We want to roleplay an extreme class divide, not hash out modern day social issues, so the setting supports -that-.
That doesn't mean social issues do not exist or cannot be roleplayed as it would exist 85 years from now. Believing that there would be an absence of discrimination besides through class is misunderstanding capitalism entirely.
Which isn't what has been stated. People still discriminate against each other, just most forms of discrimination don't take place on the level of the institution.
Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others?
Well, yeah, tricky. That's what it means to be a corpie ;)
Sounds like more people need to call out unthemely discrimination when they see it.

I've had a lingering question seeking words for a few weeks now. This thread and the discussion around theme and direction for the cyberpunk future is a good one. We're navigating strange waters because the vision for CP of Gibson's world only will carry us so far. When do we need to begin to build an IC world that tackles the theme but with fresh, modern problems? When do real social issues eclipse the designed fictional genre that we ascribe to be playing?

Excerpt from the article above: "With the ideological bowels of the genre gutted and the aesthetic skinned off to mask corporate content, the question emerges: Is there a need for cyberpunk today?"

Hope you enjoy.

Are we playing a cyberpunk genre game, or a post-cyberpunk one (as defined by the author of the article)?

Thanks for sharing the article. I read it a few weeks ago and have been procrastinating on my intentions to share and discuss it here.

You asked

Are we playing a cyberpunk genre game, or a post-cyberpunk one (as defined by the author of the article)?

Although the article was written primarily as a critique of "cyberpunk" media, the author also did an admirable job of demonstrating how cyberpunk as a social movement has been co-opted. The contrast between the original Robocop and the re-make was the perfect analogy of how the narrative has shifted to "working with the corporations" or "reforming the system from within the system".

As for Sindome and what kind of game we are playing, you are the only person who can answer that.

What kind of game are YOU playing? Sindome is just a bunch of YOUs coming together to be the us and we.

One of the things that I appreciate the most about Sindome is the fact that it is largely player driven. There are so many opportunities to tell stories and create the reality that you want your character to exist in. To do so you just need to be able to tell a compelling story and get other people interested in being a part of it.

Getting back to the article and wrapping this up

"With the ideological bowels of the genre gutted and the aesthetic skinned off to mask corporate content, the question emerges: Is there a need for cyberpunk today?"

The need for cyberpunk has passed. By that I mean the opportunity to process the prophecy and change course is passed. We are in the dystopian future. The surveillance state is here and growing. The class divide is growing wider every day. The military industrial complex is firmly entrenched and not going anywhere.

We need what comes next. Post collapse fiction. Late stage capitalism. Whatever those who label such things decide to label it.