Where Are You, Withmore?
#RPInPublicPlease

I think it's important to remember that, unlike real life, the streets are not just some path to get to your destination. They can be the destination itself.

Go post up at that wreck on Sinn, or Fuller. Sit on it. Do things in semi-ambiguous places instead of ones easily identified.

Hell. Be absurd. Go do your drug testing right outside the hospital. I would love to see some baka sitting outside, abusing the shit out of drugs in front of the sign pointing toward the ER.

The game is a sandbox. It is what you make of it. If you choose to see the only vectors for interacting with others as bars and clubs, and moreover, the only times for interacting with people during scheduled events and parties, that is all you are ever going to actually get.

The cacophony of voices here make it hard to pay attention to everyone.
The cacophony of voices here make it hard to pay attention to everyone.
The cacophony of voices here make it hard to pay attention to everyone.

That attitude was actually fairly immersive for me as a newbie, but as time goes on, I do have to wonder why it became a mechanical necessity. I think there may have been a habit among staff of using information they heard while watching players in public that ended up throwing wrenches into a lot of plots, and players just accordingly assumed that there was a fleet of secret super spies listening in on all their conversations all the time. Even talking some place like a remote rooftop was discouraged because people were convinced that some drone would be listening in.

Then, not long after that, several drawn out IC conflicts where everyone got shot for the silliest reasons if they peeked their head outside reinforced the feeling that every jaunt out of your apartment is probably going to be lethal. I wouldn't say everyone was affected, but enough were affected that a significant number of people who were usually out at social locations or on the street learned to stay inside unless they have important business to attend to. I am still trying to unlearn that behavior myself, I try to force myself to go to a bar or club at least a couple times a week as my OOC schedule allows.

Lastly, there was actually a huge (in my perception) push to shame people who were often at large social centers as 'bar sitters' and even shame people who did silly street shit like sparring in public as somehow being cube ninja-esque. The toxic attitude towards actually interacting with eachother, however inconsequential it was to major plotting, ended up being counterproductive to plotting as people continued being inconsequential… alone.

I think the attitude I observed (and was taught) when I was just starting to play really took hold and became prevalent. Everyone was extremely paranoid about information leaking unless you were in an apartment far away from any doors or windows.

That attitude was actually fairly immersive for me as a newbie, but as time goes on, I do have to wonder why it became a mechanical necessity. I think there may have been a habit among staff of using information they heard while watching players in public that ended up throwing wrenches into a lot of plots, and players just accordingly assumed that there was a fleet of secret super spies listening in on all their conversations all the time. Even talking some place like a remote rooftop was discouraged because people were convinced that some drone would be listening in.

My observation has been different. I've watched PCs not so subtly elude to GMs dumping information from @notes into the public forum. But I suspect that might be in part because the @note did not explicitly state whether something occurred in a public, or secluded/private location, rather than being an actual malicious action or overreach. I haven't really observed that sort of complaint lately, though, so maybe it's no longer a problem.

Then, not long after that, several drawn out IC conflicts where everyone got shot for the silliest reasons if they peeked their head outside reinforced the feeling that every jaunt out of your apartment is probably going to be lethal. I wouldn't say everyone was affected, but enough were affected that a significant number of people who were usually out at social locations or on the street learned to stay inside unless they have important business to attend to. I am still trying to unlearn that behavior myself, I try to force myself to go to a bar or club at least a couple times a week as my OOC schedule allows.

From my perspective, this is an unfortunate consequence of the mentality/understanding that dropping a molotov, attacking, and/or killing someone is the best initiator for conflict. I've mentioned in another thread that I am not a huge fan of that mentality, and this is ultimately what happens when it is applied at every available opportunity. That said, this happens in bars and clubs during so many events, that it has become something of a running joke that if any player gathering is being held in a semi-public location, it is going to get molotoved. I really wish people would restrain themselves more, but maybe I'm in the wrong and they were taking the one available opportunity they had to do something they felt was impactful.

Lastly, there was actually a huge (in my perception) push to shame people who were often at large social centers as 'bar sitters' and even shame people who did silly street shit like sparring in public as somehow being cube ninja-esque. The toxic attitude towards actually interacting with eachother, however inconsequential it was to major plotting, ended up being counterproductive to plotting as people continued being inconsequential… alone.

I recall some of this, and my interpretation was that it wasn't to shame people for this behavior explicitly, but to nudge certain people into behaving more appropriately for the role they were attempting to fill, at the time.

A lot of the things I encourage other people to do, I cannot do, myself, because it would be in direct contrast to where my character has settled into within the game world. It doesn't mean I don't want to see other people doing them, or letting them know that it is, in fact, acceptable to do so. I feel like there are a lot of PCs in the game right now that have more freedom to act publicly, but don't. They'd probably have more fun if they did. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can relate to so much of what @batko said. I started playing here during the Syndicate Wars of 2107/08. I was caught in that crossfire. On top of that, there were some extremely aggressive muggers in the Mix. In addition to the gangers wanting tolls. As final icing on the cake, my last character was not a combat character.

Even five years later, when that character was close to Max UE, I was still afraid to go outside. I had major gear fear. My character was effectively a loot pinata. They didn't have any allies to make attacking them dangerous. They couldn't defend themselves against anyone besides immigrants. It was a lonely existence.

My current character is the opposite. And with them, I make a point of being outside. I make a point of walking on the streets. Of roleplaying outside of places with high foot traffic.

And you know what? The streets are pretty dead. Other than immigrants running crates. Or the occasional shroud who walks by. Who may, or may not be an actual player. It's a pretty sad state of affairs.

I make a point of not being over the top when taking things from other characters. I intentionally made a character who has a reason to be in conflict with other characters. That said, I am trying to make that conflict hurt a bit less. And make that conflict less about smashing stats against each other.

To get to @Napolean's original query and follow up questions

I think some effective strategies to get people outside is to give them reasons to be outside. If you're a ganger, pick a corner to claim. Call runners to bring you smokes and pizza on the corner. Get known for being there, on that corner.

Same thing if you're a fixer, or heck, just about anything. Medic? Great. Be known for always having a medkit and taking care of bumps and bruises for anyone who stops by to see you outside of the… Drome, Carnals, the Ashlin Mall, whatever.

I wish that I had more concrete suggestions. More actionable strategies to share. I am still learning as I go with a lot of these things.

It's cheesy and cliche, but I'll repeat it. Be the change you want to see in the world.

Once you get a bit of experience and some spare chy under your belt, start having people to do things you wish people had you do. Or even just start copying other people.

Do you need a pack of smokes and a lighter? No, of course not. Can you pay someone to get them for you? Yup. Can you ask them what they're in Withmore hoping to do? Yup.

Do that out in public. Make some crap up. "I gotta wait here for this fool to show up. Will you run up to the store and get me a ...?"

Thanks for taking one for the team.

And welcome to Withmore!

Getting bodied is part of the experience. It makes the elation from finally being able to body others all that much sweeter.

I hope that you find what you're looking for here. And bring some of yourself to the story.

I'm firmly in the camp of deliver a message and give RP with people 99% of the time. Even when it's only vague clues because that's all you can give in the moment. Despite playing killers in the past, I don't particularly enjoy killing characters (PCs or NPCs).

But victims have to be willing to engage. And have to be willing to not call for help immediately, people close to the victim have to be willing not to run and help in masses. Willing to play into fear, worry, remorse, eat shit and their pride. When it doesn't happen, it makes a conflict-driven, aggressive character/player disappointed, bitter and falling into survival mode. The same as the victim fell into survival mode.

And then it just goes on and on, each party digging deeper and doubling-down.

I've had a situation where someone was targeted for only some mutilation and extensive RP. But when half a dozen people came running after them, that turned what could've been a stay alive and get a lot of RP into that person has to die now so the solo doesn't get swamped and killed. I've had a situation where someone had to die, were given messages and a theatrical warning afterwards. They treated it like a joke and so multiple other people who were up for good non-fatal RP scenes instead got the fatal treatment.

That's the kind of stuff that disheartens the people who want to do non-death or give a victim/target extensive RP and leads them down a road where they realize it isn't going to be reciprocated. So they start doing less effort like the victim did. Future victims get the brunt treatment of it and so they give less, they go out less, they wear shrouds/hoods more.

I can guarantee you a large part of why there's so much silent killing these days is because of smallworlding, metaing, no-selling, etc by victims (and people in the victim's group).

And that bleeds over into Napoleon's question and point. People go out less. People do more behind closed and locked doors. And a lot of empty space jumps off the screen.

Right now we're in a time where Red isn't at it's least aggressive and dangerous, but it's close. It's increasing, which is good. And there were some active social areas a few months ago that have dwindled down, so I think the desire is there in some. But brave the world a little, be comfortable inviting danger, mischief, muggings, beatings by being out in the open and identifiable. And if there's real danger, hire a mean-mugging chum to come along for the ride.

I get the feeling that oftentimes people are bored or want to prove themselves somehow, and rush to any source of excitement or conflict that pops up.

Also, it could be that people are unsure how seriously to treat death in a world where death is only temporary, so they see attempts on their life as a joke. I take death very seriously, but the theme can be a bit ambiguous on what people should just let roll off their back and what they should take seriously.

deep breath

DCD is a good thing. It's okay for characters to vanish for good and for people to reroll because characters being around forever is how we end up with severe power imbalances. I brought this up on another thread but SD has certain elements that exist to add risk and without those elements it just wouldn't be the same game anymore. Modifying the game for balance is great and all but we don't need it lose its identity.

I believe four times now a character expressed to me in some way they didn't feel they could compete towards the 'end game' anymore because they had racked up too many deaths during their very turbulent immy phases. Not everyone will be effected by that but it is something I've noticed, that playing at the top requires 'saving your 1-ups'.

I've also generally started to notice many of the players circling the top level conflict part of the game came up through extremely safe contexts compared to my experience in the past, and I have a feeling that getting to Max UE in safer contexts before starting to spill and spend blood might have become something of a quiet metagame (in the pvp gaming sense of the word, not in the RPI sense) in part because of DCD awareness.

I do wish there was some kind of gameplay counterbalance on penalizing characters for having 20 deaths while going through a ganging careers because to a certain extent those are the players we'd want to actually preferentially select for in the end game rather than having them placed at a certain perceived disadvantage to someone who racked up zero after 2 years in corporate security.

Cautious players can remain largely unconstrained by advanced DCD essentially forever, whereas danger-seeking and reckless players are more likely to be impacted, which strikes me as basically the opposite of what we actually wanted to encourage when it comes to who the old Max UE characters are who stick around.

There are positions where it seems like the chaos of the world just does not impact the characters in them the same as everyone else and that should change.

I don't disagree, but how? Nearly all the gameplay pressures that exist favour caution, safety, circumspection, restraint. Is there any mechanic in the whole game that encourages risk-taking anywhere that we can apply to other things?

I love everything staff are doing now, it's made a big difference in my impression and enjoyment of the game, I never would have believed we could be in the place we've come to and I'm happy about it, but I also get the sense there's a lot of ice-skating uphill going on trying to encourage players by plots alone.

A few little gameplay tweaks just to slightly change pressures and encouragements could go a long way to alleviating there needing to be one person making it work in real time.

That aside, I think the ability to sunset should be made available sooner. Staff would ideally like players to cyberpunk end or at least that's what sentiment was last I heard, but it takes a very specific kind of player to have their character essentially die off as a plot device.

For me it's not even really about any one particular conflict. This has played out numerous times over the years and every time there's been a major roadblock it's staff who's had to clear it over and over again. If it always takes staff intervention or someone sunsetting / cyberpunk ending for things to not be stagnating then it's likely that the system is broken, and has been broken for a while now.

Not to detour off that part of the discussion but I just want to shout out Crashdown's anti-shroud mantra which is something I applaud and I'm going to take his lead on.

I've been observing this happening naturally in the game for the last couple of months or so. I think a lot of people may have decided on their own that just being a nameless hood isn't a lot of fun.

That said, I wonder how impactful all of the vast camera networks in the game are toward people willing to put their hoods down. I'm guessing it's not insignificant.

-We're not all extroverts.

I know it's shocking, but this conversation reminds me of something I once saw complaining how it's always the introvert's problems and tips on how they can be more social. You never see Top Ten tips for extroverts to learn to shut the fuck up.

Some of us cannot handle the sheer flow of text that comes across the screen when a place is really bumping and crowded. That isn't even when there's something with massive text flow going on, like a television show premiere involving a crowded bar of shouting characters. This on top of the SIC network and having to keep an eye out for the inevitably flying molly to come sailing in. It is HYPER draining sometimes and it isn't something that is everyone's cup or tea, nor their black tar heroin.

-Fear, in general.

The Mix is not a happy place. In fact, it's a very very dangerous place. The sheer amount of corpses that you step over, and number of mothers calling for their lost or kidnapped children portrays such a place that only the craziest of people would WANT to be outside. In the Mix, you're either a victim or a victimizer. And if you think you're a victimizer, just wait. So it seems very odd that anyone outside the dedicated combat monkeys would WANT to be out on the streets. At some point existing outside of your pad without a reason is wanting to be a victim. And sorry not sorry, but victim RP is not playing to lose.

-Gear Fear, but clothing.

Yeah. I don't want to lose my gear. Nobody wants to lose their xo5 body armor. But more importantly I don't want anything to happen to my clothing. If I love and cherish a certain piece of tailoring, I should make sure to never wear it outside. A single knife slash or bullet wound and suddenly it is permanently ruined. I'm either going to be obviously worse for wear or my clothing would be always known to be repaired. As someone who is CHR based, that's not exactly my bag.

Worse was when I lost clothing to the vats that I actually tailored myself. All that creativity, pride and energy completely gone. There really isn't a point in me investing in what I wear when the slightest sneeze could ruin everything. You'll get more out of your chyner buying a leather trench and slapping a sticker on it, because it'll actually take a beating and LOOK like a weathered and used trench coat.

-Humans in general really don't leave their homes.

It's just human nature. I mean, odds are the majority of you reading this are sitting at a computer inside an apartment or a house. You probably did not leave the house for much reason, except to goto your job, maybe run an errand or two. But you leave your house, accomplish what you set out, and come back to your house. You probably didn't decide to randomly stand on the street corner for four hours talking to strangers.

If you're on the streets and not in your home, it's because your job requires you to be on the streets. Whether you're a cop, a EMT, or a criminal element on your turf, your job is to be on the street. Or you don't have a home, AKA you're homeless.

Also, normal people really don't go out that much in terms of social functions. If you're going out drinking more than 3 times in a week, you're probably an alcoholic.

-There really isn't anything to do.

If you're not a ganger, there really isn't anything to actually DO on Withmore streets outside of hang out at a bar. Sure, there are hundreds of people wandering the rooms, but… none of them say anything. Once a flipper knows who wants what, there's really no reason to strike up random conversations with people on the street when 95% of them will tell you to fuck off.

-It's raining.

Not sure if you noticed, but it rains a lot in Withmore. And it's very cold. I'm going to stay inside where it's warm and people can't kill me. What do you want me to do? No-sell it raining?

-I don't exist to be your loot pinata.

As I stated before, victim RP is not playing to lose. It's not fun. It's boring, and it makes me want to stop playing. Unless your strength is at the very least at the curve then a grapple from stealth means you die. That really is the long and short of it. I lose everything, you get everything for the same effort as smashing a pinata with about as much roleplay as sitting awkwardly in absolute silence for five minutes choking me out as I attempt to RP. This isn't a game I signed up for, and if I can avoid being a victim, you're damn straight I'm going to take every chance I get to avoid being your victim. Not leaving your apartment is the #1 easiest method to avoid becoming a victim.

And some people, if they're made an offer to escape Red and move to a sector where it's harder to be victimized, might just take that offer to avoid continuing to be a victim. Why am I not shocked that a major thread right now is that we should eliminate the ability to join Corp and escape Red? How dare those victims attempt to get away from everyone playing their victimizer simulation.

Sindome is a sandbox. That means you understand there's a possibility you'll get sand kicked in your face. But if you're an asshole and nobody wants to play in your corner of the sandbox, that's on YOU. Wondering why nobody wants to play in the murderhobo end of the sandbox and then claiming it's the victim's fault for not wanting to be a murderhobo victim? Aida's got a point that the blame is probably more in the victimizer's court than anyone else.

Like, I'm honestly blown away by the complaints I'm hearing. Somehow it's unfair to the victimizers because the victim can do things like... scream for help? Or even *GASP* lean on the protection and allies they've acquired to stop from being victimized? The audacity of having private security!

If you're paid to deliver a message and you can't figure out how to isolate your target, silence, and extract them to have a private conversation with them off SIC, I don't know what to say? Must suck to suck. Get gud?

But no, it's of course the victim's fault because they... want to live and scream for help? Or is it their allies fault for wanting to see your victim continue to stay alive? Heaven forbid your victim doesn't roll over and take it and actually wants to seek vengeance!

And you know, if we just got rid of all the Judges, then people couldn't hide behind NPC's and the safety of Topside.

The victimizer's failure at being a solo is not the victim's fault. It's the solo's fault.

So yeah, why don't I go out? Because outside of loud clubs there's nothing to do, it requires pants, and there's dangerous solos outside. If I have a reason to leave my apartment, I will. But I paid for my apartment, I'm going to enjoy the security of what I paid for.

I apologize.

I'll be more mindful in the future.

And some people, if they're made an offer to escape Red and move to a sector where it's harder to be victimized, might just take that offer to avoid continuing to be a victim. Why am I not shocked that a major thread right now is that we should eliminate the ability to join Corp and escape Red? How dare those victims attempt to get away from everyone playing their victimizer simulation.

While I recognize there are players who don't want to engage with the competitive side of the game, I'd have to retort the game is by design competitive for everyone, whatever their preferences or interests. Players may prefer more or less of those things but there is no option to entirely sit out that competitiveness and risk and gameplay mechanics, things outlined in help expectations and @newbie 2 – Roleplaying in Sindome.

Players can try to do so and make a choice to use all the means at their disposal to avoid the risky or competitive side of the game but it is the game's general approach that you cannot isolate and also generate resources or power that can effect the competitive landscape. The game will attempt to prevent players from staying locked inside 24 hours a day, 29 days of the month, while drawing huge weekly salaries for example, and there is something of a unspoken (but factual) social contract that jobs with perks and privileges come with a rider that dying for the privilege may happen and is parcel of the experience. This is particularly true of corporate jobs where the attitude has been historically that everyone that goes up must come down again (ideally dramatically).

Corporate jobs were tuned that players could and would be subject to additional targeted risks even if they protected from some casual risks, but it has been my experience that over the years corporate play has preferentially selected for players who want to avoid the PvP side of the game so much, and have lobbied to entrench that (such as dismantling firing risks, expectations all falls come eventually, and severe fall taxes), to the point that it's now somewhat expected that corporate play is the non-PvP side of the game where the social players should go.

In terms of ideas:

Maybe make a casino or something (unless there is already one in that case why wouldn't it advertise more), I want to gamble with more than just my PCs life or gear every time I step outside.

Maybe make earnings a (higher overall) daily cap instead of a weekly cap, so people have more reason to be active.

There is so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to start. It's clear you've likely never had to play from the other side of things and therefore have no idea the level of luck, planning, and time it can take just to get a chance at grabbing your target to start with. I once had to camp someone for several hours over several nights. Real hours of my day spent sitting in one spot with my finger over the enter button, waiting, hoping. Get gud? Do you have to be good to collect your automated paycheck from that cushy job you probably show up to a couple times a week? I'm just astounded to see a line like that from someone who's had so many complaints in so many threads and all that's being asked for here is that people go out more.

You're also not much of a loot pinata if you aren't rocking the good shit, you stand to lose so much less, and while I do understand the annoyance of lost or ruined clothes if for some reason it does happen you don't have to special order them and hope someone can find them and pay exorbitant amounts of chyen for them. Outside of very special or gifted pieces you can just remake them. Yourself. It's called Notepad, start saving your designs.

People aren't bringing up private security. People are bringing up how a character's friends get involved in conflict that isn't theirs purely because 'that character is my friend and I am going to help them'. You can argue that's human nature, but even in the current world we live in people barely jump to their friends' defense on the street. I can't see it being so common in 2110 in a gritty, cyberpunk future.

It's one thing to pay someone to protect you or make a deal with the enemy of your enemy to get back at them. It's another to have protection just because someone decided to get involved out of friendship with your character or some other third party got involved because they wanted to dictate how conflict should be rather than stay out of it and simply disapprove like everyone else. You don't have to automatically save someone's ass even if you don't agree with the situation they're in. There are other ways to support that person if you wanted to that doesn't involve curbstomping on conflict between two characters - especially true for PCs with UE or power.

1. When I mentioned not fun to play the victim, I mean that UNLESS the attacker puts effort into making it engaging for the victim.

This can mean leaving behind a trail to follow, making clear demands, providing opportunities to convert this upsetting setback into future working relationship…. There are many opportunities here that will make me say "I wanna be their victim again, 5/5 would get robbed against my will again" (you know who you are and I love you).

Sadly, there are some people who do none of that, and that gets very loudly spoken about, which as a result means it gives a bad aggressor rep to most people. They just want to force their will and do anything in their power to not get struck back at and… Then don't be surprised that no one else wants to be a victim either, if an aggressive part of that situation refuses to accept that role in return.

It's a game of give and take, not just take. I know that kills can take a lot of setup but maybe take few more to think how to make it engaging for the victim after.

2. People who may be death reluctant are not necessarily escaping conflict.

While my PC is definitely on the limited exposure to direct death risk (something I am considering changing, pending some ic events), they are -absolutely- loaded with conflict, and drama and I do my best to keep them pissing someone off whenever I can. And they are absolutely reachable without needing to flat-camp for days (I do dislike that, every character should be drawable under the right circumstances, camping for hours should not be a thing)

But the key is that just because someone avoids the red screen confrontation does not mean they avoid conflict. I think it's important to appreciate the behind-the-scenes schemers, movers and shakers.

In general I've felt something that was lacking was that Sindome had sex and danger and death but it was somewhat unsexy sex and danger and death for lack of better way to express it, and that just a little bit of repackaging and more alluring presentation could change something gross into something very cool, even seductive to players who might overwise avoid it.

I have to admit I think I was coming at a lot of my conflict pushing the wrong way. What Aida said (to paraphrase and interpret my own reading a little) about victimhood being fun if it's special really clicks with me because I never really cared for anything like being shaken down, or held off the edge of a building, or various other types of roleplay that players sometimes say they'd like to have around their combat stuff, so I didn't really see what it added to the experience.

But I do remember being a victim and feeling special for that experience, maybe with a lot of in-character crying involved but still special, and for me it was nothing to do with roleplay the attackers were doing but rather the context of who they were and what it meant for me afterwards, and seeing things from that perspective makes it easier for me to understand, I think, what players might be after.

Many people have a white and black mindset when it comes to "going out". You're either going to go from point A to point B with 3 layers of disguise, poncho, stealth, changing alias, using rooftops, etc to collect your paycheck. Or you're going to get chain vatted and lose everything.

But what happened to just going out to enjoy the game world and play to the theme? Go and talk to a guy on the street and tell him, hey man, the weather sucks today… and yeah... we're all being underpaid and we hate this fucking city and the government and the corps... and let's do something about it. Let's just talk and act like human beings in this imaginary universe we've made up.

I recently did an experiment, just took off my disguise, and walked around the Mix for almost an hour. Maybe I logged in at the wrong time, but I found no other PCs to interact with outside of the bars. And I'm an experienced player, imagine what the newbies must be going through.

I personally feel very bad signal on Red Sector streets is seen as more of a downside now to players compared to the past because topside play and signal amps are more the norm. I also feel coded ambient pickpocketing creates more negative outcomes than positive because it gives the impression to characters they're always 'bleeding' resources when out, and increases the hate on player pickpockets somewhat unfairly.

1) A majority of players have now played topside for a considerable amount of time and have become accustomed to constant signal to enable their roleplay.

2) More of the game's activity overall has moved to being on SIC, so lack of signal is tantamount to experiencing no player interaction.

3) Players are much less tolerant of anti-roleplaying mechanics than in the past because they have more exposure to new games that left those ideas in the 90s.

Like if I spend an hour or two roaming the streets every night without a shroud on, and I see no players and spend most of that time without signal, I'm pretty cognizant of the fact that I'm basically doing mostly lost labour to create the impression of activity for others to try to get a positive feedback loop going.

We can't enforce that the victim stand around and RP either because that also isn't fair. More often than not we can try to provide more detailed RP after the attack if someone was vatted though.

On there being bad signal in Red I don't believe the intent of this design can be changed without also making changes to other parts of the game. Bad signal on Red allows characters to do things and get away with them, like waiting on someone's route to a location and attacking them where there's no signal so they can't cry out for help. That's an obvious one and the only example I'll provide so I don't give too much away.

If signal on Red were to be made more stable we'd need more methods of disabling it. Right now the only method that exists is unreliable and does too many other things. I'd be down for a cyberware option that you could toggle on to disable signal for the duration of a crime or anything that would achieve similar effect.

I will never forget the endless hustling interacting with sales to gangers and other NPCs that are programmed to buy things, people would hire runners just to go check who needed what, and immies got a constant source of interaction and networking due to being scooped up to sell more drugs for fixer A or fixer B.

This was all born out of a glitch in the code that actually caused all those NPCs to buy equipment with far more frequency than they were supposed to be buying them. They would buy equipment and drugs even when they did not need it, which was not what the system intended. Instead the bug somehow worked like a cooldown rather than being based on the NPC's needs, and the cooldown was different for each different player.

This allowed multiple orders of magnitude more players to interact with the system at the same time, and it showed. It was a lot of money pouring into the game, but it was also a whole lot of plotting and movement around it that macguffins, cargo and even shitbergs failed to deliver on.

The current glut of drugs isn't because the amount of chemists have increased or because there are more labs in circulation, but because this was the normal production rate and people were still not fully keeping up with demand. Fixing one bug pumped the brakes on one of the most vibrant hustles in the game.

Maybe it would be good to consider ways to to make that system more like it was, if we want to try and replicate those years of gameplay. After all, we cannot purely will activity into existence, the fact that the game was once more active and vibrant, while now the streets of Red are dormant, means that there were material changes in the game that led to this.

Build it and they will come, destroy it and they will leave. I think the game has repeatedly nerfed a lot of systems that encouraged people being outdoors a lot, and whether you like automated income or not, the frequency in which people interact with those systems did drive a lot of engagement with the outside world.

I will never forget the endless hustling interacting with sales to gangers and other NPCs that are programmed to buy things, people would hire runners just to go check who needed what, and immies got a constant source of interaction and networking due to being scooped up to sell more drugs for fixer A or fixer B.

I just want to highlight how important I think this is because players will tolerate a lot of bullshit and mechanical frustrations if they're making good rewards in a fun way that drives activity and especially highly visible street acitivity. We're so allergic to rewarding gameplay, is it any wonder no one gives a shit when the roleplay isn't to their exact preferences?

While people banking tons of chyen may suck, I see way more opulence among Red citizens now than I remember ever seeing, before the bug was fixed. I suspect a lot of that chyen was also being moved around in thefts and robberies.

With every positive move to reduce costs and improve quality of life came another change that just added to the maintenance aspect.

Gear cost reduced! But… now we're fleshing out repair mechanics and forcing you to replace that gear more often! Cybernetics reduced! But... now your cyberware can get damaged and you need to go get it repaired! Surprise! Endo isn't effective against PDS anymore! Buy these new patches that are specifically only generated by the system.

I'm sitting here eyeballing this kitchenette poll right now and not really wanting to vote on it because on the one hand, I agree with the premise... and on the other, I don't like the idea of yet another thing that's going to suck chyen out of the player economy.

I kind of feel like the player economy is on the operating table, bleeding out. And all anyone can think of is to keep performing blood transfusions, rather than stop, or slow the bleeding.

If you want players to have more chyen to engage with, maybe eliminate some of the systems that are literally just sucking it out.

2019 – AKA SD ADDICTION SETS IN

POSE: 7725

EMOTE: 24157

TO: 36027

SAY: 41867

CM/CE: 6694

CCOM OUT: 8879

CCOM IN: 9125

2020 – AKA I LEARNED HOW TO POSE

POSE: 19640

EMOTE: 524

TO: 28780

SAY: 24418

CM/CE: 12703

CCOM OUT: 6849

CCOM IN: 8162

2021 – AKA BADLY FORMATTED LOGS

POSE: 21114

EMOTE: ???

TO: 13225

SAY: 20403

CM/CE: 2140

CCOM OUT: 5941

CCOM IN: 7313

2022 – AKA THE RETURN OF BAD LOGS

POSE: 14520

EMOTE: ???

TO: 27420

SAY: 26638

CM/CE: 5313

CCOM OUT: 5968

CCOM IN: 6986

2023 – AKA INTROVERT MAXIMUM

POSE: 6393

EMOTE: 12

TO: 13356

SAY: 14251

CM/CE: 5389

CCOM OUT: 3497

CCOM IN: 3690

2024 – AKA SIC HERO

POSE: 4841

EMOTE: 4

TO: 11920

SAY: 5627

CM/CE: 6876

CCOM OUT: 11282

CCOM IN: 11233

Why is work roleplay so avoided? It gives everyone a place to go and more importantly it creates mini-factions for new and mid-level characters to belong to. I've stayed out of the bash-on-topside bandwagon for the most part, but, now I hear pretty much the same sentiment about RP in the Mix except when it's topside its the player's fault and when it's in the Mix it's the fault of coded mechanics not generating enough chyen. Most attempts to put this back on player perspective and attitude isn't received well, but from my perspective it has almost everything to do with it.

Here's why I think those small plots and work RP shouldn't be avoided: It creates opportunity by creating groups by forced proximity. By managing a club, bar, whatever, you get to help steer roleplay in the mix. BY working in that club, you get to be a part of smaller plots, make contacts, build a rep.

I feel like most PCs come into the game with built-in social networks, now, and maybe that's a reason nobody goes out - there's no reason to be social and build networks. People say social RP is fluff, but it's not when it's done right. You can simulate huge nights out with 'friends', you can provide a space for roleplay that can simulate the seediest of places that most of us will never experience IRL, hopefully, because most of the time this also leads to lots of minor and some not-so-minor conflict with competition businesses, gangs, or each other. There's a lot of reasons to go out, but not if everyone's a super-solo in Xo3 every day of the week. What about that other side of the character's lives that really builds -why- they're where they are to begin with? I'm saying that plots don't have to be forced through chyen generating mechanics. They can happen organically and will if people let them.

I don't know, I found the whole corporate-bashing thread exhausting and more than a little disheartening. Sometimes, I think I'm playing a different game than everybody else is. My PC hangs out at work, runs errands, tries to foster relationships, nearly every time they wake up. They are accessible if other people put in the effort, too. They aren't going to be your plaything or loot pinata, either, though. They aren't running any -big- plots, (mainly because it doesn't fit the PC's station right now, but also I kind of suck at running them) but they rarely say no to other's schemes and they are always plotting toward their long-term goal by setting small goals along the way. They are always trying to find ways to spend their chyen and fund other's RP, as well.

Sometimes, I get impatient, too, but that's part of the process. We want things to happen big, fast, and now. That's unsustainable, though. I like to enjoy the slow drip the rest of the time.

As great as it would be great to be able to loiter in public and roleplay there, I don't see that happening any time soon.

It pretty much ensures the hate for thieves is cranked to max at all times no matter what players do or how much they try to mitigate it. Horrible mechanic.

On the other hand maybe they really do contribute to this weird ongoing hatred for dips and should be removed as a mechanic as 0x1mm said. I more wish the skill had other practical uses besides annoying the player base but that's a topic for another thread.

However, does it have any measurable effect on smallworlding against thief players that would be missed?

The point is that it's not a cure-all for people hating on any archetype, but dips do automatically antagonize the entire playerbase whereas other archetypes don't have automated bullets flying around shooting people.

It has two functions, one of which is rarely used and both requiring you to try and target characters you're more confident won't see you (and you can still fail the roll!) which is likely a contributing factor to why people become bitter towards dips early on and continue the pattern of acting like they're the bane of the city.

If Thievery could actually target stores and U-Vends and what ever else those with the skill might be less inclined to target PCs for progias and chump change, or shelf the skill almost entirely which they shouldn't have to do. Getting on a bit of a tangent though so I'll leave it at that.

However, I think it's fair to recognize that dips are more frustrating to some players due to how it's possible to lose your pocket change with zero feedback. It being frustrating isn't a matter in whether it's balanced or fair, though. It probably is balanced and fair.

I don't think it's fair to have one archetype automatically antagonizing people to ingrain a passive aggression towards dips in them while simultaneously chasing people off the streets, though.

Slither himself said he doesn't like the negative impression player thefts create in bars but then if players try to make it more fun they lose a huge amount of income and then the game steals from other players anyway. It's so maddening how contradictory and sabotaging the sum total of these design and policy decisions are.

It has felt to me basically like the game wants thievery to be a thing characters deal with a lot but it also doesn't want the game itself to take the heat for it so it offloads the blame to players as a way of divesting responsibility.

If it wants less thievery against players that might discourage them then there is an easy solution: Drop ambient theft and change the targeting policy on player thefts. Thieves and victims alike are happier and everyone has more money in the bargain.

Dips can be annoying, but so are people who go outside with as little as possible to avoid the impact of any potential loss. At least dips are taking a chance they might get caught.

Just to highlight how incompatible I think these thievery policies are with something like practical play and real game experience, this is a quote from help farming:

Dipping half a dozen NPCs in a day is not a huge deal - assuming you are also targeting an equal or greater number of PCs.

Stealing from six NPCs and PCs in one day? I'd have emptied the game world in a week.

It feels like there are more people around lately, so maybe this thread has inspired people after all, though I don't play that kind of archetype currently, it feels like a good time to remove the ambient system and give current dips some space to work without frustrating everyone.

I don't think it's unreasonable to spend 1500 UE on skills and stats and expect to be able to make it halfway through the automated limit every week without jumping through additional hoops no other part of the game gets subjected to.

Coded controls on how much chyen players can take from NPCs? Sure, absolutely, I could make 50,000c a week otherwise, very understandable. But then why also enforce 1:1 player targeting policies on top of that? This means robbing a player every 1500c earned a lot of the time, it's an incredibly aggressive baseline to expect. I am not a conflict-adverse player by any means and it's way, way beyond what I feel is fair for me to subject anyone to.

Imagine if you had to take a crate from a player for every one you delivered. Same difference. It would be a miserable experience for everyone. Players aren't the ones making theft a bad experience, the game is.

What I am asking you is if I target 5 PC's in a day and don't dip NPC's (or dip less than 5) am I breaking the rule?

I have no problem stealing from 5-7 players a week mechanically and if the game policy requires me to do that to make my automated income, then too bad for them, but it won't stop me from thinking it's a bad design and I would rather have the freedom to play my archetype fairly in the way that I see as fair without having to run crates for automated income.

It's not as if players will be looking at their watches and expecting to be making a certain amount of chyen for every ten minutes they spend roleplaying in bars, but I personally think it made a big difference that there were more possibilities for pay offs sometimes between the hours and days of gossiping about SIC chatter. Maybe the game will never unring that specific bell but if something took its place maybe there is potential to see activity like there used to be – because the total PC population isn't that much different.

Because if I see 25-35 players on off peak hours and spend two hours combing two sectors at night for street activity and see zero PCs, it tells me there is probably something that could be done to get that ratio up just a little.

And I don't mean as a matter of risk aversion or avoiding combat, either. The game holds no qualms about squeezing every ounce of enthusiasm out of those who create plot, and it eventually becomes necessary to protect your peace or burn out entirely. Sometimes that means having more meaningful RP that isn't at risk of turning into a struggle session at the drop of a hat.

But then when I started playing half of them were getting SIC rips to avoid triangulation so it may not be the best sample period. I did personally feel that the first round of nerfs to payouts (April 2019) and the final nail into the Mix economy (October 2019) coincided, in my perception, with noticeable downturns in player activity, but there was also a lot of players quitting at the same times for related and unrelated reasons so it could've been a cultural shift too.

Having done both sides of the coin with doing business in the open and doing business behind closed doors, I can tell you that, in terms of high UE characters in positions of power, it is simply much less stressful and more immersive to do business behind closed doors. I force myself to go and meet immies and hang out in public, but the game never seems to make me regret that.

And I would support this statement, it matches my experience entirely.

The fewer players are involved in anything the better the gameplay works. The roleplay may be worse off but mostly random players are headaches anyway. Looping public players in on fun plots and storytelling and low stakes stuff is great and fun, but when it comes to the nuts and bolts of making real money to fund those plots I would never bother.

Players need to be taught behavior through a reward structure. I know that's not what some people enjoy hearing, but it's true. Those rewards don't need to be chyen, necessarily, but if roleplaying alone was reward enough, we'd all be playing a MUSH instead, too.

I think the game has a big problem with essentially telling everyone who voices their aches and pains with being a plot pusher to suck it up and git gud, and that has a very binary result pattern: either they do git gud, or they leave. So then there is the question: how much of this issue stems not from automated income changes, the common player culture complaints, dips, or anything else discussed here, but instead from motivated players being beat down until they no longer wish to stick their hand in a fire and tell themselves it was fun? How many people who used to create the environments you are missing from years gone by are still even playing the game? Why did they leave, or why did they change?

At the end of it all I guess the question is.. are we all doing what we can?

My personal feeling is that just wringing all the effort out of players and staff until they're burned out and quit isn't really a sustainable practice. I don't think I should be spending hours and hours every day, every day of the the week, for months, just to scrape together the resources to cover the non-profiteering plots I'm trying to do. It's just enough of a payoff to me still to be worthwhile but I often feel some of the game's design choices are working against players and staff in what we're trying to both accomplish.

Burnout is something that happens to every player in basically every role, and even happens to staff. Though usually when combat characters reroll it's to new combat characters, and when deckers reroll it's to new deckers, etc. It's often not the archetype of type of gameplay that they were tired of but being dragged down by the history and situation of that specific character.

It's also RP being forced on people and it can't be responded to. At least not directly at the one responsible. Imagine I were a dip that could never be caught even if I fail a dip check and I always log out right after I dip someone so I can't be tracked. That's what that system amounts to imo.

If I have twenty kay of rent to pay for a month, those reimbursements aren't coming to player business, they're applying to automated income which I need to then go out and earn from those sources. It would be unfair and unreasonable hardship to deny players fair access to automated income available to others because some people don't like the archetype.

This is not to discount their opinion, as all facets are important, but for some players, the struggle is absolutely real.

I draw a parallel to the "rule" that we are not allowed to describe our characters wearing things like nice jewelry or other items that another character might have a reason to ICly want for themselves.

Jewelry kits for player made jewelry/accessories are a thing now.

Yeah. I've done this many times, made myself intentionally vulnerable, only to be no-rp vatted with no post-rp or anything.