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Get rid of mix gun detectors.
detect this, bitch.

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There's been a push for player policing of disguises recently, one that has led to the decrease in GM response to potential instances of meta and has even caused a lessening in respect for ambient population. Where is this going, you may ask?

Imagine you're a solo on a job, you just got that brand new Trusight mod for your HiPoint, you've made sure your mag is full, you've cleaned your weapon religiously and now you're off to stalk your target to get those corporate dollars. You step inside of the club they're at and the alarm goes WHEEE OOOO WHEE OOO. They run outside because they smell trouble, for some reason.

Now, this was okay with the way the system worked before because there was a very strong emphasis on ambient population, but right now people are very likely to take advantage of detectors in a way I don't believe was intended by their creator.

Solution? Get them out of the mix entirely, please. I don't think they're useful for anything beyond getting firearm users frustrated that the entire club now has eyes on them because there's nothing to stop that from happening.

Links back here, for firearm accessibility:

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/low-tier-firearm-accessibility-2180/

By Necronex666 at Nov 5, 2020 12:01 AM
Or, on the other hand- more guns!
By Kiwi at Nov 5, 2020 1:07 AM
@Kiwi.

Catch 22.

I would say that alternatively there could be a mod that negates gun detectors, but that seems like an overly complicated solution to a simple problem. The detectors add to the atmosphere but it's not as if they go off randomly to represent the numbers of guns that would actually be present in a mix club at anytime.

In addition, gun users are the only weapon users subject to this, with probably one exception to this rule. I'm not saying it ruins RP, but I think there should be a long look taken at the them with the change in disguise rules.

By Necronex666 at Nov 5, 2020 2:20 AM
I realize that some people consider it somewhat meta to see a character enter the club, hear the gun detector go off, and then make the connection that the character that entered the club caused the gun detector. This does feel smallworldy. Issue is that there's no good way to fix that smallworldness without just... removing them.

And I think I agree with that, actually.

The detector is just weird to me, if guns are a problem in a club they'd more likely just have a policy to leave your weapons at the door, complete with a frisk. And that would likely not fly in the mix.

If we account for ambient pop, the detectors should realistically be going off every few minutes, there are more people with guns in the mix than just players and NPCs. But the game has it's limitations. So there's no good way to make this NOT a smallworldy thing in the mix. Aside from just removing them entirely, of course. Good luck explaining it IC, though.

By batko at Nov 5, 2020 3:26 AM
As if weapon detectors are only deployed by GMs and builders.

You don't just go take PCs' stuff away.

By beandip at Nov 5, 2020 4:47 AM
It's a bit jarring to walk into a bar, the gun detector goes off, suddenly everyone eyes you warily, and the room goes silent. "Oh hi there villa, didn't recognize you under that shroud."
By villa at Nov 5, 2020 5:43 AM
Beandip, I'm sure there would be adequate compensation if staff were willing to go along with this. Nobody is suggesting the Sarz charge into all the clubs on Sinn and tear everything down. There's precedent for stuff like this happening.
By Necronex666 at Nov 5, 2020 6:15 AM
@Batko.

The same has been done with other security equipment, without going into detail. There's actually a very good IC reason for this to happen. Maybe the local solos are tired of all the attention from the alarm when they just want a drink.

By Necronex666 at Nov 5, 2020 6:21 AM

As if weapon detectors are only deployed by GMs and builders.

You don't just go take PCs' stuff away.

If it's player installed gear, then yeah, sure, you do just go take it away. I've paid people ICly to sabotage security systems like this in the past several times. If it's not something that's intentionally stuck in the location by staff, then it's just an IC issue.

As for staff taking things away, this also happens. IC compensation is handed out for something of similar value and/or functionality I.E. No more of this security gear, but an roughly equivalent amount of other security gear, etc.

By TalonCzar at Nov 5, 2020 8:07 AM
Forgot to mention @Neconex666,

I agree in sentiment that it's somewhat odd seeing weapons detectors and such in the mix. It feels like legacy stuff that harkens back to SD of yesteryear. However, it's really up to players to police small worlding. No matter what tools are available, people are going to smallworld.

Next time James GoldBond badass uber solo walks in a bar and the alarm goes off, maybe he can gun down the idiots giving him stank eye.

Some of this has been happening lately to players doing similar things, and frankly, it's not only thematic enforcement of OOC policy, it's also absolutely hilarious.[/b]

By TalonCzar at Nov 5, 2020 8:11 AM
@Talon.

Not everyone carrying a gun will be able to respond as they should to those small worlding. It's not as much of a problem for big fish as it is for those who are amateur carriers and overall I think it's very strange that we're meant to ignore the feedback we get from detectors most of the time, but a lot of people don't.

Maybe the ideal fix isn't to get rid of them but to to have them display random numbers in the mix though. Staff has been looking at security equipment recently so this should definitely be included in that conversation judging by how often the things justify PCs getting spooked.

By Necronex666 at Nov 5, 2020 8:42 AM
Every weapon detector in the mix was setup at the request of a PC leaser based on incidents. We could look at more obvious ways of slipping things past it, but I'd rather y'all figure out you need to work around them. :)
By Johnny at Nov 6, 2020 5:18 AM
Edited due to IC info / mechanics.

(Edited by Slither at 7:17 am on 11/18/2020)

By alittlelonger at Nov 6, 2020 10:46 AM
There's only one way to work around the detectors, which is to not even bother going where they are. In which case my question is why would there then be the additional cost of having to pay for scouts when the weapon class already comes with the most cost.

The problem is that as soon as someone sees a combination of disguise+gun detector going off they assume it's one of a few people, and they're not often wrong. Even if the issue isn't addressed the way I suggested, are we sure it shouldn't be addressed at all?

By Necronex666 at Nov 6, 2020 2:52 PM
I personally agree with Necronex666 on this one. This is another element targeted specifically at gun users that users of other weapons do not have to deal with. And the concern regarding 'incidents' are odd to me as discouraging gun users from a space only keeps about 5% (yes, that is a statistic I made up) of dangerous things out of the club. It also didn't address sniping as entirely new doors had to be added to places to address this.

Here are some possible alternatives to removing them:

1. Turn them from 'gun detectors' to 'weapon detectors' and have them alert whenever any kind of weapon is spotted and simply stating how many 'weapons' were detected without saying what kind. This makes far more sense to me as someone with a katana, sledge hammer, stiletto or some bras knuckles are just as concerning as someone with a gun. This would mean that guns are no longer singularly disadvantaged while still providing value and benefit to the devices.

2. Create more memento NPCs. NPCs that spawns with random weapons and cyberware that move about more. Like they spawn, hit a list of destinations, pausing in each, then despawn. Some disguised and some not. Enough so that running into them is a fairly common occurrence. This could probably just extend the existing mementos to do more, not sure about the details of implementation at all. :P

I honestly think both changes together would be pretty cool. Though throwing weapons and cyberware onto NPCs has ups and downs as they could be 'farmed' - sadly enough. Maybe this could be addressed by only gearing them with the cheapest crap that will set off detectors. Not sure.

Just some random ideas.

By Grey0 at Nov 6, 2020 11:30 PM
Better yet, for number 1, don't state how many weapons ever. Just state that weapons were detected. Nothing more. I think the ambiguity will further help to stop small worlding without making the detectors completely useless.
By Grey0 at Nov 6, 2020 11:31 PM
3. Create premium holsters that are designed specifically to conceal weapons from view and scanning. They are illegal and if found by someone who cares about the Law will get you into trouble.
By Grey0 at Nov 6, 2020 11:36 PM
If memento NPCs are spawning with low tier firearms -- especially disposable firearms -- and/or chrome that sees very little use, like non-hardened neural processors or skinwatches, then I don't think the farming issue is going to be particularly different than with gangers. Help farming will still apply.

Hell, mementos with skinwatches, neural processors and other "less common" cyber might give more business to low tier rippers which could be a good thing. That's maybe it's own idea though.

By Pavane at Nov 7, 2020 9:27 AM
1. Turn them from 'gun detectors' to 'weapon detectors' and have them alert whenever any kind of weapon is spotted and simply stating how many 'weapons' were detected without saying what kind. This makes far more sense to me as someone with a katana, sledge hammer, stiletto or some bras knuckles are just as concerning as someone with a gun. This would mean that guns are no longer singularly disadvantaged while still providing value and benefit to the devices.

I like this ^. You know people are armed. What's double funny is since everyone is armed, it triggers for everyone and you constantly have the sense that everyone around you is carrying.

By Crooknose at Nov 11, 2020 11:44 PM
"The problem is that as soon as someone sees a combination of disguise+gun detector going off they assume it's one of a few people, and they're not often wrong."

This is just so lame, and against the spirit of this game.

By Wulf at Nov 17, 2020 5:36 AM
Yes, so make sure they don't see it going off when -you- walk thru.
By Johnny at Nov 18, 2020 1:54 PM
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