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Learning to read the room

This is sort of delicate but is a line-stepping issue when it goes too far: consent and TOS, and hiding just shy of it on the line of insistence when you don't get a yes. I'm bringing this up here because when I think about it in terms of the rules, it gets really fuzzy and becomes an OOC issue.

If someone declines an offer of a sexual encounter, why persist and persist to get a yes? Why repeatedly try and try when they said no multiple times? They politely decline you, they move away from you, they put a barrier between yourself and them. Those things are "no", they're not messages for you to try again until they sleep with you.

Why ask people over and over to spend time with you when you keep getting a no? That's not wearing someone down, that's being a nuisance.

I've seen this so many times now with different people that it's starting to really become a problem. This isn't what this game's about, and it can hurt the community and make someone dread even thinking of playing with you.

I used to GM this other game a long time ago, an mmo. Back then there were what I called "line-steppers". If you ever saw Dave Chapelle's Rick James/Charlie Murphy skit, you know what I mean. Habitually stepping up to the line of a rule or a boundary, then just sort of pushing against people's nerves but never really crossing that line.

Technically you aren't violating TOS by bothering someone repeatedly for sex and getting a no every time. But... what the fuck. What kind of game are you playing when you keep acting like that?

Please do better.

While I can see why this might annoy someone on an OOC level, this is an IC issue.

Some people are annoying. Some people want to pressure you into doing naughty things with them. Some people might be so persistent that you don't want to be around them.

Avoid them. Put them on your ignore list. Get them fired. Kill them. Hire someone else to do your dirty work and send a very firm message about how they need to stop.

But this isn't an OOC problem. You have ways to solve the problem.

It's not always IC. Remember GMs warning people that this game isn't primarily a dating sim? This is along the lines of players not coming here with the expectation of that. It would be great if more people could realize this and refocus efforts. It's causing -way- too many people to poof.

We're going to have to disagree here. If their character is coming up to you and treating you some way, this could be entirely IC and not an OOC thing at all. The person on the other side might be a big sweet heart. If you feel that someone specific is causing you problems in an OOCly harassing way, then report it.

Per @rules

6.A. Sexual RP & Saying No

Sindome is an adult game, with adult content. As such some amount of sex

will, in all likelihood, enter into your characters life at some point.

Sexual assault and molestation in roleplay are considered part of

'rape roleplay' and are explicitly prohibited in our rules.

If you, the player, are uncomfortable Out of Character, with physical

sexual roleplay that is being directed at or requested from your

character, you may use the local OOC command to request that the person

cease. If you make this request and it continues to happen, please use

xhelp to alert the admin staff, and we will help resolve the situation.

If someone OOCly requests you cease physical contact during sexual roleplay

with them under ANY circumstances, you are to cease it, without question.

Failure to do so will result in punitive action such as being banned from

the game.

It's important to do this Out of Character so there is no confusion.

----

If they are doing something listed above, it is against the rules, and should be reported. If they are just sexually harassing you, that is within the rules, and should be dealt with IC.

However, at the very end of the @rules file

WRAPPING UP

If you have any questions about any of this, please xhelp. And if you are unsure if the roleplay you are thinking of engaging in would violate these rules, you can ask, or you can just not engage in it and not worry about it.

------

If there is something effecting you profoundly due to sexual harassment your character is receiving, you should xhelp the details and maybe something can be done on an OOC level to prevent it from happening.

A rule change to say sexual harassment IC is not allowed would be a bit much I think, especially since anything can be construed as sexual harassment.

While I don't think anyone will really disagree with you on principle at all, it's sort of hard to really incorporate what you're saying for most people, I imagine.

Given Sindome's timescale and the like, it isn't really that unreasonable for someone to make repeated advances if they're interested but aren't immediately reciprocating. Some people may like to play out more organic progressions in relationships with a little bit of push and pull and all that jazz. But of course, respecting player agency and consent is a very important thing.

It's supremely difficult to broach topics like this without concrete examples, but you're right, Sindome isn't a dating sim and I'd like to hope that at least a reasonable amount of people are prefacing the intimate relationships they develop in-character with the context of what Withmore is - ergo, a gritty, hapless place where trust is in short supply and people will use everything (and everyone) they can to better their lot at the end of the day.

That being said, I'm not sure chiding posts like this are particularly helpful, all up. Anyone it is likely to be referring to is probably not going to think it involves them anyway.

Rig a bomb to their door then invite them to dinner.

Complaining about these types OOCly usually get you nowhere if they aren't breaking any rules, and probably harbor OOC grudges. How I deal with socially awkward people that can't take a hint would be dramatically different then someone from the other side of the game, but as suggested, you should just drop them on their heads in more ways then one. This is a conflict driven game after all, and this person just gave you a reason!

if you don't want to RP with them, you could just totally disengage too. when i dislike rping with someone, i just find excuses to not be around them, go ghost on them etc etc

but if theyre really pissing your character off and wont go away, consider hiring a solo :D

If there is some subset of folks thatare coming here looknig for a dating sim / MOO sex experience and not getting it or getting it in the manner they'd prefer because that's not what SD is and they go poof and quit playing that's just...good? I don't see that as a problem. That just means this game isn't for them, they realize that and stop seeking out things in the game that the game isn't and shouldn't be providing, at least not to pervasive extents.

If a character is annoying or harassing yours, but isn't breaking the rules (which I think at this point do a very clear and reasonable job of delineating what is acceptable in a gritty, dark, mature world and what isn't), I'm with those saying to view it as an opportunity, for conflict and RP -- hell, maybe sometimes characters acting that way have very IC reasons for doing so and are seeking conflict with their behavior. Maybe they're infatuated, an obsessed fan, a strip club patron going off the rails, etc. -- megastars have bodyguards and strip clubs have bouncers for a reason, give those folks some RP!

Or, sure, maybe they're just someone who OOC'ly can't read the room -- if something going on that might be running afoul of the spirit of the rules, or is making you genuinely uncomfortable OOC'ly, xhelp it, IMO. Otherwise, no means no, and a bouncer breaking their jaw -really- means no. FUIC, Fuck them Up In Character

I get what you're saying, you don't even want to subvert/destroy/implode them IC because that would be giving them the RP they crave. Think of it this way, though, when you have a lot of money you have a lot of options for dealing with problems that don't require all that much RP from your end. It's annoying OOC and IC for you but it's what plots are made of.

Exactly, Crooknose. Anyway thanks y'all for understanding why I felt conflicted on where to voice this, and please understand I didn't do this just to whine. I appreciate you listening and giving advice!

Thank you for bringing this up, Supermarket. There are some situations where people should do better.

People in this thread have made some great suggestions, including mentioning how the Rules allow us to OOCly request people stop when their characters attempt "...physical

sexual roleplay that is being directed at or requested from your character..." Maybe one thing we can do is find ways to regularly remind people that they are allowed to decline this type of RP, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting this type of RP.

However, I also want to point out that depending on the issue, it is not always just an IC thing. Thankfully many people in this thread went beyond just "This is an IC" issue, but there are multiple, multiple examples of how the very nature of this game we play brings nuance and fuzzy lines with regards to OOC versus IC.

A big direct example to this is "6.A. Sexual RP & Saying No." Instead of it JUST being an IC thing that you should deal with ICly, there are OOC rules provisions for addressing this IC situation OOCly. That's not just an IC thing.

Another example in the same vein, here is Cerberus saying that "It's always best to set your boundaries on OOC chat without feeling like you're messing up RP," in ths context of MOOSex. https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/moosex-n-you-338/ Cerberus acknowledging there are OOC aspects to this IC thing.

On a different specific subject but still related to OOC-IC nuances, here is a post from Slither: https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/deckers-on-sindome-334/

I include this post from Slither because I believe if a Community Member made a similar post in the vein of "Please don't treat Deckers like they are nothing. Just because there is not as much coded support for them does not mean they are not potentially powerful," then that hypothetical Community member would get a lot of "This is an IC issue, handle it ICly."

My point is, there are numerous situations where the IC and OOC divide is not so clear cut that they can just be responded to with just/ "This is an IC situation."

I post this because even though everyone in this thread gave great suggestions beyond just "This is an IC situation" I would like more people to consider that the IC-OOC divide is not always so simple.