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OOC Chatting about IC events

The OOC chatter about IC events needs to stop.  If you are doing it, then you are ruining the game.  Not just for yourself, but for everyone else.  Just so we are absolutely clear on what is characterized as IC info I will lay it out:

When something happens to you.
When something happens to someone else.
When someone kills you.
When you kill someone else.
When you plan to kill someone else.
When you go clone.
When you go light.
When you make money.
When you spend money.
When you leave your cube.
When you enter your cube.
When you eat.
When you shower.
When you buy something.
When you sell something.
When you see someone.
When someone see's you.
Etc, etc, etc.

If someone starts to talk about something thats IC, you need to ask them to stop.  If you don't then you are part of the problem.  You need to report them to an admin, so we can get people to STOP.

I repeat, it is ruining the game.  Not just for you, but for everyone else.  We are all friends, and since we are friends we like to talk about Sindome.  That's fine, talk about features you might like, or features you don't like, talk about the THEME and why it's cool, or what you don't like about it.  Talk about this post and how annoying I am for making it.

BUT DO NOT TALK ABOUT SPECIFICS.  Do not mention your character, who they are, or what they like, or what you WANT to do with them.  That's right, not even future plans or ambitions that you MAY or MAY NOT actually do.  It's IC info.  Get off of Skype, get off of AIM, and go to the Drome, or some other bar and have these conversations IN CHARACTER where they belong.

This is not the first time I have posted about this.  I already know some of the people that have been spreading IC info through OOC means.  I will be asking you personally to stop.  It is not a request.

This includes GMs.  Do not talk to GMs about IC things in real life or over Skype or on the phone, or via e-mail or AIM.  Talk to them about it IN GAME over xhelp.  I know that we all talk about things in person, and when it's a GM it seems like it's okay, but we've decided that should stop because it sets a bad example.  If you want to talk to a GM about IC things, then please do it over xhelp.  

If you have a problem and do not want to talk about it over xhelp, then that means it's a personal problem not relating to IC events and you can feel free to contact a GM personally.

Also, many problems are caused by people talking to other players about problems they have with GMs or with other players or with the game in general, or with things that happened or didn't happen ICly.  This builds a wall between GMs and players and dilutes the truth.  Other players get mad FOR you.  If you have a problem, do not take it up with another player, take it up with an Admin.  That is what we are here for.  

Starting this moment, We will be taking a hard line on these issues. I am perfectly happy @newting everyone if thats what it takes to get the point across.

Do you want people to play with? Then STOP sharing IC information in OOC form. When someone gives it to you, don't be a push-over and ignore it, call them out on it.

I'm going to call amnesty on past transgressions, but I want you all to be accountable to each other.

I will start.

I have in-person and online, shared in-character details for the purposes of conversation, debate , admin assistance and reminiscing. I AM GUILTY.

I've also chatted online and in person about the IC game whether out of excitement or confusion, but I have committed myself to stopping on both levels.

(Edited by Lillith at 11:45 am on Sep. 30, 2008)

I am guilty of talking to the majority of the GM staff and a small amount of players about IC details OOCly.

I feel so much better now.

Ya, I've definately done this on AIM, as Slither can testify to back in the day huh man? � �
As a player, I was guilty of talking out of character about IC events.  One of the players I was telling info to was not comfortable with the situation, and even though we were good friends, they told an admin I was doing it and I was newted for a time.
As an admin I am guilty of setting a bad example by allowing myself to talk about IC events out of character.
Wow!  I didn't know that part of it tho.
Hi, my name is Iga, and I am a talkaholic.

We like to talk about the game, we like to talk about the things we do and see in it. It's part of being in the community. But what has been happening lately is people are talking about a lot of things in detail, and making decisions in the game based on that.

It is becoming un-fun. For some, it is becoming a reason to stop playing because they are constantly getting frustrated by spoilers, unfair reactions, and various other fall-outs.

Just about everyone, including myself, are guilty of some sort of IC/OOC reaction at some point in time. But sharing IC information is like telling everyone that Bruce Willis is a ghost at the start of that 'We See Dead People' movie. It ruins the whole movie for most people, the whole experience is shot.

So just keep that in mind next time you are blabbing away about what you are planning, doing, and seeing in the game over beers and chats. You probably don't like spoilers, so that probably means others don't like them either.

If someone is spoiling your fun, let us admin know so we can look into the problem. Don't let it fester and rot until you are so furious that you want to stab and quit the game. Help us to facilitate your entertainment in a constructive and effective manner.

I've done it. I learned my lesson before this post, though, but I'm just as guilty as anyone else :D

Everyone is guilty, and I doubt it will stop. Although I do think that it will subside for a brief time due to the admin temper tantrum. I have talked to Johnny about this and I do think that past incidents should at least be alright with the players discretion of course.

(Edited by Dante at 8:27 am on Oct. 8, 2008)

Quote: from Slither on 9:16 pm on Sep. 29, 2008[br]The OOC chatter about IC events needs to stop.  If you are doing it, then you are ruining the game.

So are you saying that when I was more active years ago, and regularly discussed game matters with other players outside the game, even though it had a very positive effect on our RP and enjoyment of the game, we were instead simply ruining the game? While I do strongly disagree with things like revealing critical plot info, or sharing info to unfairly gain an in-game advantage, I still don't grok the zero tolerance mindset towards any discussion of IC events. There's always been a strong separation of player and character whenever I've been in these sort of discussions, to the point that I could talk candidly with somebody even if their character and mine hated each other with a burning passion, and as a result made it very easy to handle unfortunate IC events and react in a way that was appropriate to the character (rather than the player acting through the character). I've never used this for my own gain, rather it would more often end up resulting in coordinating my RP time with others even if it meant bad things for my character, rather than having a several week long stalemate where everybody hid in their apartments and nothing progressed (or were never even on at the same time).

Despite being regularly chewed out by keblar over this, my opinion on the matter never changed, and although I no longer have any contact outside the game with any current players, I suspect that if I hadn't left for a while and was still in contact with the same crew that I would continue to discuss game matters as I had. If players are misusing IC info to help their character, hinder other characters, or cause OOC issues with other players, then yes they should definitely stop, but there's no reason to demonize all discussion of IC matters just because some people can't act maturely about it.

While I totally agree with you, you have to understand, most of the Admin are at fault for the OOC IC stuff and they want it to stop and they don't trust the players and in turn some players stopped trusting the Admin..

So demonizing all OOC IC talk is the only way to handle it at this point, as stupid as that sounds.

They even wanted to lock this post so no one could respond and have been deleting -some- posts.

And I thought I was the only fan of totalitarianism around here, but you know what... Johnny's game, Johnny's way and i doubt he'll be changing his mind about this any time soon.

I could gurantee you though if he wasn't supporting Slither in his post then it would be business as usual for the players.

Nature of the text beast.

Admin don't trust the players, players don't trust the admin... so what's new about that? :biggrin:

Seems like if anything there's more transparency now than there used to be, and the J-man has definitely mellowed out a lot over the last few years (what's up with that, eh?), so it should be easy enough to build some trust if the parties involved are willing.

I don't know why any players mix RL and IC emotions really. I feel like this whole thing probably started with a situation where the admin did have legitimate concerns but just went to far in response to something. I'm sure it was one or two players going WAY to far and fucking it up for everyone else, it's the only logical reason why the admin would choose NOW and not earlier.  So to whoever those players are......Sweet

I just think that if everyone relaxed, that the game would be a 100x better, like before.

We understand and respect the negative opinions about talking about IC things OOCly.  A lot of the time it's fine, and innocent and doesn't hurt anything.  But then, sometimes it does.  And you can't tell someone 'Hey you can do it sometimes but not all the time'.  There is way to much gray area when it comes to talking about things OOCly.

And like I said, there is nothing wrong with talking about the theme of the game, general things like the interaction between corpies and mixers, etc.  As long as you do not get specifric and start revealing details about your character.

There are also people who don't like to hear IC things OOCly, but who don't want to get anyone in trouble by telling an admin, and don't feel as though telling the person that's doing it to stop, will actually result in them stopping.

And so it continues.  Which is why we are taking a hard line on it.  Because it general it does hurt the game.  IC things should be handed In Game.  That's what the game is for.  Instead of talking about stuff on AIM, talk about it In Character.  That way other people can get involved as well.

I don't think that's a bad thing.  Getting on, getting out of your cube, and having these same conversations in the Drome, instead of over AIM or Skype.

There is nothing wrong with OOC chat about IC events...

The only problem is you can't trust the players to not use the information they gain OOCly, ICly..

Just like today, you can't trust the Admin to not give some players IC information OOCly.

This is the sole reason why there is a problem with all of the OOC IC chat.

We're all guilty, but only a few of us are to blame.

I'm apparently the only person who is accused of having a Pet Admin on a weekly basis, take my word for it.

I have never done this shit.  What the fuck is wrong with you people?  Talking about IC events OOCLY is just WRONG.

For shame...Slither

I haven't been around and I don't know what triggered Slither's bump of multiple BGBB topics on the subject of metagaming, but it's incredibly saddening to see that stuff has been going on which made him feel that it was necessary.
Please read this topic.
As this seems to have cropped up again, with people having used Twitch to start contacting each other, I'm going to request everyone read it.

We did the Twitch stream to keep you all entertained during the down time, and the fact that some of you used it to start chatting with each other, and then sharing IC info, is a huge bummer. Now we have to decide if we want to continue doing those in the future, because it's already caused us to have to launch two investigations into info sharing.

I'm really disappointed that the rules we have in place to protect the community are being ignored.

Thats turdtastic to whoever did that. I enjoyed the twitch streaming. It was very informative and probably tied the community together a bit better. Always gotta be a few that mess it up for the majority.
Is there a way to possibly turn Twitch chat off for a stream?
Meaning, the stream owners do it, not the people watching the stream. Or maybe use a site that lets you stream but doesn't allow chat.
I don't want to have to find streaming services with training wheels because people in our community are too immature to follow the rules. Sorry.

I think we'll continue streaming but I am going to be stricter about the punishment, right now it carries 6/12 months with a warning first. If we continue to stream, it may be my suggestion we strip out the warning.

You guys need to remember that someone always rats you out, if you're on a discord and share logs, they eventually get reported back to us, you piss someone off, you annoy someone, you'll get reported, and you'll be punished, that's always how it goes. So its in your best interest to stop breaking the rules.

Every 3-6 months someone starts to play that has the idea in their head that they know better than the community. They think the rules ban on communicating with other players is not needed and that OOC chatting is not bad for the community.

I used to think that myself! It's with time and experience that I came to understand that it isn't about any one person, but the group as a whole. Sure, I am pretty good at not revealing IC information to people I know that play the game and are not admin, but it is hard! And it only takes one person abusing things to cause a lot of harm.

This is the internet. We have to plan for the worst and hope for the best. There are ALWAYS people who are going to act like what they are doing isn't hurting the game, even if the majority of us know and agree that it is. So we have to have the rule, and enforce it. Even when it sucks. Even when I would prefer everyone just be responsible for themselves so the admin don't have to deal with this kinda thing.

In the end though, everyone playing this game is doing so AFTER agreeing to our rules. And continuing to play means they CONTINUE to agree to the @rules. If there are folks who don't like how we do things, they don't have to play, it's that simple.

We aren't going to change this rule. We've had too many bad experiences as a community. If you don't wanna be involved in a community that has this rule, you don't have to be, that is totally cool.

Arguing against it, or telling the admin or other players how wrong they are etc. is like showing up at a nudist colony and being like 'YALL MUH FUCKAHS SHOULD REALLY CHECK OUT CLOTHES, PLENTY O' PEOPLE IS WEARIN' EM AN' THEY AIN'T HAVING NO PROBLEMS. SERIOUSLY DOUGH YOU SHOULD TRY THESE CLOTHES ON I CAN TELL YOU AIN'T NEVER TRIED EM BEFORE AND THEY ARE REALLY GOOD.'

IE: You're missing the point.

Wait, what? Since the SindomeTV runs due to the server outage, two players have been put under microscope for claims of sharing info? No wait, they are sharing info.

I'm sorry, but that shit doesn't fly. Ban ban ban. I and many other players understand how hard SD is ICly, we don't need OOC buddy-buddy cliques and circle jerks making the lives of honest players tougher by 'gaming' the system with that behaviour. There's already enough circle jerking going on.

People a short while ago got bans for saying they were leaving the game and posting discord links to communicate. Now there is an official twitch channel available that lets anyone who goes communicate freely. It's a little silly.

Yeah, I don't trust people. I'm okay with that.

If i'm understanding your argument, you don't think we should do things like Twitch to entertain players, because watching a twitch stream with admin monitoring the chat, and sharing your OOC contact information so you can chat privately, are to you, the same thing?
No. What I'm saying is that Twitch, whether you want it to or not, allows players to communicate through Twitch in private. It's like that one post that people got banned for sending their discord information, except admin allowed.

It has nothing to do with the admin monitored chat, except in that chat anyone can click on anyone else's name and privately communicate.

Even if you don't communicate, if you're logged in you'll show up in the chat list and people can grab your information. As a result, if I stop by the stream I'm usually completely silent and don't stay for long. Usually long enough to see if I get lucky about an update on the game. Now that the game isn't crashing I don't stop by at all.

I like entertainment. I just don't have interest in that can of worms.

There is absolutely nothing different from sharing your info on LOCAL OCC and on Twitch Chat direct messages. The rules tell you not to CHOOSE to do it. We cannot enforce or regular EITHER of those platforms unless we SEE IT.

I don't know if you think we all watch local OOC 24/7 waiting for people to share discord or skype names, but I know I don't have that kind of free time.

The rules are clear, and I am not going to ruin my experience or others because people cannot control themselves. We'll just ruin the cheaters experience and ban them from the game when they break the rules.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Cerb here. We've put a lot of tools in place to help us be aware of people sharing info and to prevent in, in the case of people trolling or banned players trying to ruin others fun, but it's up to every single person in the game not to break the rules, even when they have the opportunity to do so without the admin knowing.

We don't wanna babysit folks, and we don't wanna have to not do things just because a few folks abuse it. If that makes sense.