I've also heard several times that you're supposed to "choose" three artistry specialties and thematically stick to them. Just like in martial arts, it's coded. I think the same could apply to artistry; make you choose specialties which show up as perks in @stats or something?
That said, I'm not necessarily supportive of breaking up the more generalised Artistry skill at all. I don't think it is nearly as big as a problem as has been said, whereas I can think of times where we had a much smaller playerbase and far more 'general' artists. I'm never going to be for approaches that mitigate players policing themselves in RP heavy roles like performance.
The community already polices itself in this respect in that there are -plenty- of characters who will seek out characters who specialise themselves in a specific form of art above the others.
There has to be more to it than that. Look at the volume of messages this idea and its sister in the other thread has triggered.
In all my Artistry, I've always stuck to very particular themes across tailoring/tattooing/painting/etc and turn down jobs that don't fit within those perimeters.
The same way that if you're "specializing" in super Mixer/Punk/Voodoo art, you shouldn't be able to whip up ultra-fashion/post-modern suits, and vice versa.
So far, I haven't seen many cases of this, but I think most of the prolific PC artists and even the NPC ones keep to a certain theme about themselves and reflect that in what they do. I think the real issue is jack-of-all-trades artists who aren't limiting themselves to a motif is the real issue here.
And I don't even think the 'true' jack-of-all-trades who don't limit themselves whatsoever are even problems. Because if I'm playing a discerning character I RP accordingly to get an Artist that fits my needs.
Similarly, why would you be concerned about hiring a tailor who 'just got bored and picked up the gun one day' for a tattoo? It's easy to figure out whose-who and who does what through... RP.
I don't really get it either.
If people are playing wildly above their talent, they should probably get bopped. There is a case for players who simply don't know how good 'good' is because they don't know the extent of the stats and skills systems, but if we apply that to performance I'd much rather read something someone really put time and thought into to make something cool and interesting to watch than some routine performance where we're supposed to think they're super great because they rolled high even though it's just like, copy pastes of a Beyonce video or something.
There's also the issue of varying types of performance which would call upon different skills/stats that wouldn't be represented by a static Performance+Charisma check or something. I'd expect someone doing a high flying act to be agile, someone doing kata to know their martial arts, someone putting on a display of their body to really have the looks for it, so on and so forth. Would these things suddenly require points invested in a Performance skill in addition to what's already required just because they're doing it in front of a crowd? It's not like we're generating 6d8x10 gold pieces every time we make a check here, we're just playing in the bounds of our characters and doing cool stuff.
It can be tough not to stretch a little far, especially for newer players who figure X amount is actually pretty high up when in reality there's much, much more UE to be spent. But is this really such a widespread issue to need some robotic solution?
I can see some of the logic being thrown around here, and while it's true that a lot of "artsy" people dabble in multiple things, the artistry skills in Sindome are mostly very different things. Most tattooists in the real world are going to be comfortable with drawing, but -painting- uses different tools and techniques that might be alien to them. And the inverse is also true- you can be super comfortable with paintbrushes and not at all comfortable with putting needles in people- the fact that your canvas squirms and bleeds might be an issue. And learning other artistic avenues, like tailoring, is another thing entirely.
The tl:dr is that "artsy stuff" isn't a single umbrella and dividing it isn't needlessly complicated. If we're going to break down martial arts by style, I agree that breaking down artistic endeavors by type is at least worth a look.
So, people think that if they were to - possibly hypothetically, possibly for real - choose to RP only a subset of the in-character Artistry possibilities, coded or otherwise, then there would be other players who will get more out of spending UE in that skill.
As if it were unfair that someone else gets tattooing, painting, tailoring, dyeing, and vehicle customization for free, when all I want my character to be involved with is performance for the same amount of UE.
You have to have an absolutely objective winner and loser in a fight. Art is just different. Think about it.
I'm not the best in the world at everything I set my mind to doing, but I do a decent job of it. So -forcing- someone to specialize doesn't make much sense to me from a realistic standpoint. However, I wouldn't object to having it as an option.
I'll add to it: The code shouldn't get in the way of that RP.
When we do anything artistic in the game, we're giving other players our best RP. That's our text which their characters are going to bear on their skin, wear on their backs, or view on the in-character broadcast media. I agree that it's both appropriate and sporting to try to include in that text some hints about what my character's actual experience and aptitude levels are as of the moment in time he creates a given piece, but that's my RP.
I don't judge other players' RP choices, and I don't judge other players' OOC talent for composing text. They're not "doing it wrong" if their RP represents their inexperienced, unintelligent character giving it their all, and maybe moving our characters' emotions and tastes as a result. And they're not expected to have the same real-life talent, when they roleplay their brilliant, beautiful seasoned professional producing a sublime work which just might deeply touch their patrons' hearts and souls.
You can't code for that. Well, maybe you could, but it wouldn't be Sindome. I don't know what it would be. It wouldn't be a RP game.
I think we all agree that, sure, it's good gameplay if a player can humble himself and put mediocrity into his RP when he knows he has a mediocre PC. But that's not at all to say that it's unfair, bad sport, cheating, or inadequate game code if a player "gets away with" typing text into the MOO which someone else thinks is too good for their character.
Performance is a special case (which we have another thread for discussing), but the rest of the coded artistry options have in-character outcomes which do make the skill rolls matter. And performance isn't un-influenced by UE either: Many have been the times GMs have given or withheld praise, rewards or opportunities based on an art character's stats and skills. Good enough?
Already in place. Staff are on top of Artistry in general, because people make things they're not supposed to. But that's the price of all the freedom to create what you want. Which is vastly important, as bean_dip underlined in his own post. Freedom to actually apply the creativity behind the fourth wall.
OOC-Chat comments like "How is the player supposed to know how much skill or charisma their character has, so that they can RP a performance appropriately?" just make me boggle.
Honestly I feel challenged with this myself but is seems that seasoned players find it silly. Why is that?
As long as you know you're doing it, knock yourself out, give it your all, RP your best RP.
The other reason is that roleplaying a performance isn't easy, on an OOC level. There is NO reason to make it harder by making players feel like they might "do it wrong".
As long as you can feel like your efforts are honest ones, and you're not trying to "get away" with something, let this go and just focus on playing the game and posing your heart out.
But like I said, be honest with yourself. If you genuinely feel like you haven't been working on building the kind of character who should be able to put on the kind of performance you're putting them through, throw some flubs or some stage-fright into it. Show US how good you think your character is, don't imagine that players are going to criticize you for "doing it wrong".
And don't worry about the numbers. Just worry about sincerity.
And my thoughts are instead of separating Artistry out, don't be a professional at every art under the sun. I can see a rare character who has trained since they were a kid to be good in several areas, or several instruments but though this is a game, do try to not go overboard.
And those who are good in 1 or 2 things may only be okay at another.
Main thing is to have fun.
Yes, a good rule of thumb is to choose a couple things art-wise to be able to do. Maybe 3. Possibly 4 (Like some actors can do).
Just some thoughts:
Professional tailors in real life may be able to dance a little but not to the same level as Professional dancers. They didn't have the same years of practice / level of training. They can still dance at charity balls, maybe, but won't even consider putting on a performance.
Not all musicians are lead vocalists.
Not all painters can sing or dance although they might carry a beat and sing off key and aren't absolutely awful.
Some are actors and can sing and dance on top acting. Some can even play an instrument or two on top of that but can't necessarily write their own music.
(Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire, Judy Garland, Hugh Jackman. Kevin Bacon and Gary Sinese can do these plus make their own music for their bands.)
Some standup comedians are singers and can play the piano. Some can only do standup and act.
Some artists are actually writers and can't sing or dance or paint. Maybe they can draw a little but not at the same level. (Comic books usually have different writers and drawers, and also someone else who is the inker and another for the coloring.)
Some tattoo artists are good at tattooing but only okay at drawing. Some are really good at drawing. Just don't ask them to sing or sew.
Just RP and have fun.
(And yes, you will likely be told if your skill hasn't even reached Average to write worse, and to then think of how to make poems and art worse can be funny and interesting to RP.)
We have a hard time with Artistry players earning money and this is because everyone does everything.
A specialty would encourage you to stay within your wheelhouse and give other players an indicator as to what void needs to be filled when they get involved in Artistry.
I don't want to get a new suit, a tattoo, and song written about me, and the guitar / drums/ piano played for me by the same person. It starts to make that terrible small world RP thing rear it's ugly head.
Some characters dedicate their careers to the arts and invest heavily into it financially, rp-wise, and code-wise. Others use the arts as a second job, the striving (or starving) artist type, maybe hoping to get to independent artist status eventually. Some just like to use artistry as a hobby. While others, still, have actual careers in other fields while managing to be full-time artists, as well.
As of now, there is no differentiation between these artist archetypes and I think this breeds a certain resentment and that is why this thread pops up every so often.
If artistry, aside from the high-profile performance arts, are only meant to be diversions or hobbies then no change is necessary, but if we want to make art a viable career path then there has to be -some- delineation between these archetypes. Those that invest in it -should- have a big advantage over those that don't and right now this isn't the case.
Even if you have 2 Skilled Artists, the ones who invest in the stat, as well as the RP, are the Professionals, you could say. And they'll eventually become experts or true professionals down the road. There have been some characters like that in the past (and currently).
Like in Cyberpunk 2020, anyone can get a skill in art or music, but it's the Rockerboys and girls that take it a step above and can truly command an audience. (Even in D&D, anyone can get an instrument, but the Bard knows his shit.)
Was there resentment? I didn't get that. Confusion maybe.
I know Cerb mentioned it is in the works, but OP mentioned a few specialties but only 3 categories:
Performance, Tailoring, and Canvases/Tattoos.
I take it that music, singing, dancing and acting falls into Performance.
Would sculpting and painting things which are not canvases fall into the 3rd category?
And then what about Writing?
(There's creative writing but also Journalism, and then there's lyric writing and then song writing, and then there's script writing. Each of those really are different skills. I'm decent at creative writing but my Journalism and essay writing skills need work. I can write some lyrics sometimes but writing music? No.)
(Some singers sing very well but do not write their own songs or music or only write some.)
It's just some thoughts and curiosity on my part.
I'm unfamiliar with basically every non-Artistry related skillset in the game, but I doubt many skills require the same level of OOC commitment. I personally think for that reason it's sort of a special skill.
However, I'm not against seeing the skill split up. I think that artist characters who are interested in pursuing multiple paths will still do so, and seem all the more interesting for it.
As for it seeming weird, I do think it's weird when new characters roll onto the scene and say 'Hey, I'm looking for art stuff to do, I do it all.' I tend to think of that as a newbie player type issue rather than an art issue, though. I also think that these things sort themselves out as a dedicated artist character gets good at certain things and finds what they prefer.
I rest in the camp of role play over coded systems. It allows for a freer feel, and it reduces the workload on the administration. Even if another player may be taking a step over their character's limits, it should be the responsibility of the community/buyer to make the judgement call.
Do you really want your tailor to make a bust of you? It really depends on their product right? I guess they'll have to show you some of their sculpting work before you commission them, right?
Should it be decided that a coded divide be setup, I believe making specializations would be a bit more adequate. I may not be a minimalist/practitioner of 'ma' or a veteran at hand dyeing, but when I tried them for the first time, I would venture to say the learning curve was significantly shorter due to my previous years of experience with other mediums.
Maybe back in the day with fewer players this wasn't needed, but with so many people logging in now (hurray!) i think it really makes sense. It creates RP. Forces people to seek out appropriate vendors and even forces players to really concentrate on their character and not just white wash all of their skills when its convenient.
I hope this leads to more character run specialty shops. Open up kiosks in the malls, maybe even in the markets. Owners/Lessees can hire new talent or sell artists stuff in their shops. Maybe even temporary shops like popups? People can take a gamble and lease a temp space to show off their hot new shit or instead of sitting at a bar doling out tattoos one can have a space to work. Hopefully draw some attention, expand their RP and their character's presence. If the code were there we could do this now, i know, but with specialties stuff like this gets concentrated, the competition becomes real instead of a free for all...or a none for all as the case may be. I also hope it brings the playerbase in line and forces them to spend a little on their character's style. One of the taglines of this game is Style over Substance right?
I can't wait to see where this goes.