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Corporate Sovereignty and Crime
Not my problem.

I've been thinking about topside crime a lot lately, and one thing I've noticed is that all different corporate security teams tend to band together and work together to neutralize threats, even on rival corporation territories. Corporate security teams also tend to help neutralize threats that the WJF instead handles, but that's perfectly fine in my eyes.

Legally, corporate security from other corporates should not lift a single finger to do anything on a rival corporation's territory unless explicitly asked to, even if it could mean letting people die. For example, if a Saedor Krupp security agent was witnessing a robbery happen at a NeoTrans transport terminal, they'd have to stay out of it unless authorized, or the corporation could and likely would attempt to prosecute them.

Why? Corporations see their own security teams as well-oiled machines that will do exactly what they need to do, unless unknown factors are introduced. Random rival corporate security intervening is not only vigilantism, but also could impede efforts from the correct corpsec team.

So, if rival corpsec team is authorized, then what? Authorizing third parties to intervene should be met with some pushback by higher-ups. It makes your corporation's security team look ineffectual, and can possibly make it look like a rival corporation saved the day on your own territory, a humiliating prospect.

I suspect the WJF also work much like this, but should also ignore corporate security threats even as they escape, unless explicitly asked to help, with the reasoning being that the moment the WJF gets involved the individuals involved in the crime cannot be handed back over to the relevent corporation. It is now business of the Hall of Justice, and if the corporation would like to buy any fines the WJF assigns, they can, but otherwise, the corporation is removed from the equation.

So, the WJF are authorized, what now? Well, like before, there should be pushback from higher-ups for relying on the WJF to handle threats to the corporation. If the criminals targeting the corporation are not handled by the corporation, the security team looks weak and they lose a chance to interrogate and privately punish the criminals their own way, or even indebt them to do their own bidding (free of charge, as opposed to buying fines from the WJF).

Just some ideas I've been thinking about, I realize a lot of this isn't mechanical but rather, perhaps, cultural, but I don't think the Ideas board is strictly mechanical, either.

"Why? Corporations see their own security teams as well-oiled machines that will do exactly what they need to do, unless unknown factors are introduced. Random rival corporate security intervening is not only vigilantism, but also could impede efforts from the correct corpsec team.

So, if rival corpsec team is authorized, then what? Authorizing third parties to intervene should be met with some pushback by higher-ups. It makes your corporation's security team look ineffectual, and can possibly make it look like a rival corporation saved the day on your own territory, a humiliating prospect."

I think there are other reasons beyond this why a corporation would not want a rival corp's security on their property. How about protecting corporate secrets? Another corp sending aid in the form of security forces provides the cover for some corporate espionage; just slip a few spies in as part of the security team. I would much prefer if each corporation regarded the others with suspicion and kept them at arm's length.

Good points, Blackbird. There are some places where rival corporate security can just be at the wrong place in the wrong time, as there are hangout spots, bars, restaraunts, etc, inside other corporations, so staying out entirely sometime isn't even the problem.

But you are right, on all points, corporations should probably be very much against any intrusion on their property by rival security teams, especially to neutralize threats that they logically shouldn't even care about.

I should also mention that this thread came in large part from reading Mirage's idea post about Paydirt Generation. This and the macguffins generated from that idea would make intercorporation heists much more common, I'd think.

I like all of this. +1
There's a lot that isn't completely accurate in this thread, but what's the reasoning beyond the WJF letting a criminal who just killed someone or committed another crime in a corporation run by them and away because PC corporate security couldn't respond fast enough?
... with the reasoning being that the moment the WJF gets involved the individuals involved in the crime cannot be handed back over to the relevent corporation. It is now business of the Hall of Justice, and if the corporation would like to buy any fines the WJF assigns, they can, but otherwise, the corporation is removed from the equation.

Giving corporations the chance to chase them down in their own corporate security vehicles that they never use, mainly. Perfect reasoning? No, but I think putting the onus on corporations to make the decision to include the WJF or not (with an automatic default to including the WJF or other corpsec teams if there are no responding corporate security players of rank) lets the corporation decide if they want to pretend something never happened, or stop the criminals at all cost.

This could especially be an especially important detail if the criminals are acquiring paydirt from that corporation that is illegal in some way, in which case, they would not want to even look at the WJF, and it's better to just let it go.

@crashdown

I'm new around here, so I'm still learning exactly how Withmore works. But drawing from other cyberpunk-themed sources I'm familiar with, typically the corporations run themselves, and corporate land is practically sovereign soil. Governments don't normally concern themselves with what happens on corporate property because the corporations own the government. If the same is true in Withmore, I can totally see WJF being called off of something that happened on corporate property because "the corp will handle it their way."

If you're using your quoted post as reasoning as to why, that isn't reasoning that exists now, you'd be creating it to fit your suggestion. Those situations already happen and quite frequently.

It isn't sensible for the WJF to watch a murderer waltz out and leave the scene of a murder not because the corporations said "it's okay, we're done with them, we've handled it" (which can and does happen) but because no one was able to respond fast enough from a corporate security PC end. You can flip this around and ask how sensible it'd be for an in the daylight Judge to go down to Fuller, kill a Snake, and then the other gangs just let that person ride off into the sunset and back to corporate sectors without lifting a finger.

As I said the original post has a lot of stuff that isn't exactly accurate or happens in very rare circumstances (and not all places which look like they may belong to corporations belong to corporations).

Maybe I should have clarified, the post is supposed to be a suggestion on how it should work, rather than a commentary on how it already is.
There's also reasons why gangs would fight for eachother but there are very good reasons why corporations would not let eachother into threats on their own end. It makes no sense for a Judge to kill a Snake and the other gangs not bat an eye, but if someone kills a syndicate member, none of the other syndicates care.

I also just mentioned that corporate security can explicitly authorize the WJF to intervene. Which would be likely, if the matter at hand wasn't potentially damaging for the corp itself for the WJF to get involved, and if the corp is failing to apprehend the criminals.

In the last sixteen months I can only think of two situations CorpSec intervened in what looked like it took place on another corporation's property. One was a very unique circumstance which wasn't just them randomly responding and the other didn't actually happen on corporate grounds. So in my opinion, this isn't a big issue, it isn't a frequent one and I don't see it as one that needs to get fixed.

The WJF is already in a position where they don't respond to stuff on corporate grounds unless authorized. Asking for a cultural shift to change where the WJF can't respond to murderers running out of a corporation without interaction with the corporation's CorpSec cuts off a lot of roleplay for people in a pretty major faction whose job it is to respond on non-corporate grounds. And I still haven't heard a good explanation as to why that would make sense. It'd make sense if the corporations told the WJF "No, we've handled what they've done on our property" (which again happens) but not the other way around.

What happens if there's no PC corpSec around and someone decides to come into a corporation, throw a bomb and waltz out? Because you don't need to xhelp for lobbing bombs topside anymore. And so that means there's no corpSec PC for the WJF PCs to coordinate with then.

If you don't want the WJF to respond to a person trying to flee a corporation after committing a crime, distract the WJF. Or try to kill them. Or use a getaway ride. Or bribe them ahead of time. Don't cut them off from roleplay.

All good points, I did mention that the default for when there aren't security players to respond should be that the faction decides to authorize the WJF, but I did forget that certain things such as bombs do not require xhelp authorization anymore, and therefore it would be a bit of a pain for the staff to handle that.
From my perspective of CorpSec, they don’t have a huge amount of high profile security work things like saving the day, running down bad guys, being ya know overtly awesome. I think a lot, not all, but a lot move into that sort of role for that sort of RP. Which when you think about it, does a lot to explain the perceived dog piling onto criminals, regardless of if they are on corporate soil or endangering corporate assets.

Some seem starved of the type of RP some might have signed up for, given overt, responsive topside crime seems a little scarce. Consider times in which players can play and so on, it might be days, weeks in some cases even months, before a Corpsec player actually sees the RP action they want to be involved with.

I disagree with the idea we should look at ways of locked off potential RP that those types of players might enjoy, in fact I will almost go as far as to encourage it if it feels natural to do so. An off duty Corpsec agent of another corporation showing your Corporation up by stepping in where your own Sec is lacking seems incredibly on theme to me. It could be a motive to disrupt said Corpsec to make them look foolish, or to claim the bragging rights over a bounty, or just corporate pride in doing what that corp couldn’t do. Bragging rights, humiliation, power and weakness is a large themely part of Corporate life.

I do agree though that there should be much more pushback when this sort of thing happens, to use a theoretical example. On live TV at an event run by one corporate, an off duty sec member of another corporation saves the day, that should be utterly humiliating for the event runners in every way. That could create lots of RP in handling the situation, overcoming the humiliation, putting down the other corporation, smear campaigns, power struggles, staged crimes to show you are strong.

I think we could look at the situation not to chop off and lock down RP, but open up new avenues for RP. As for the potential ‘stepping on players toes’ for long work and established RP in setting up or otherwise trapping a criminal, for that work to be undone by a random element, I think honestly that is just one of the things people (myself included) have to take on the chin, for better or worse.

Take this with a pinch of salt, this is a well informed outside perspective of corpsec play, but I hope it gives some food for thought.

This has been my Ted Talk,

Good bye.