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Make firearms use melee when empty
:D

Firearms should revert to melee weapons when they run out of ammo. This would make pistol whipping and buttstrokes to the head possible and a beautiful thing. Change my mind.
use your rifle as a baseball bat
wrest gun from JoeBaka

pummel JoeBaka with his own gun

run out of ammo and beat them to death the rest of the way, finish the job at any cost
Give weapon techs work restoring said weapons. ... What did you do to this thing? Don't ask.
I'm gonna pistol whip the next person who says shinanigens.
You can already pistol whip/rifle butt people. It's in the parry/counter messaging.
I don’t want just parrying. I wanna beat you to death with this gun.
What would actually happen is that running out of ammo would switch you to using a weapon class nobody has UE in and you'd get rapidly clowned on.
I wouldn't mind the addition of a bayonet mod for firearms which would probably synergize better but at an added cost and skill requirements.

Pistol whipping also sounds cool at least for RP, not so much for combat. Can you kill people with a pizza slice, yes? So I guess guns shouldn't be much different.

I think the intention is for it to lean on your melee skill.
So you think, Vera. So you think.
affix bayonet to musket

cyberpunk.......

Eh, as cool as it may look in movies, actually fighting with anything modern in melee is a massive hinderance. Better off dropping it and using fists. And you would likely break the damn thing in the process, not really made for melee :P.
Marleen I think you don’t know what you’re talking about on this subject.
Actually a rifle muzzle to the throat is a very real and practical thing if you can't get a shot off.
I actually do. Have you ever carried m4, or any smg? How the hell would you use that, effectively in melee?
Smash someone's face in with the butt of the weapon?
I was an infantryman for 7 years.

I know how to use firearms to beat someone.

So you now have a very unwieldy club that you are trying to use. That you have to hold by the butt, the thing you are trying to hit with. Hardly adds range, occupies both hands, is easy to grab by the opponent to stop you from attacking.
And I was in special forces fo 15, and navy seal for 700. And using rifle as effective melee weapon is a joke. Old weapons, which were made for melee did the job, kinda, but not great. The moderns are just not made for it.
SMGs chew through ammo like crazy when they're on full auto. Part of the disadvantage of the weapon class is you need to watch/prepare for that like a hawk, maybe even get chrome or gear to help alert you to when the mag is low, if you're not on top of it. Being able to just smash someone in the face with your empty gun while re-loading as opposed to seeing the white click-nothing's-happening message would mitigate that disadvantage to a degree. Whether that would be good or bad, I'm not sure.
Anyways, this is all the typical ideas thread nonsense.

You can fight with a Progia. You should be able to beat someone with empty gun.

You can fight with dildos, too. I have no idea why you're all up in arms over "gun not made for melee combat" when neither are dildos
Marleen, again, you must have gotten some office training then. Stop being silly and learn something about the subject before you try to argue it.
There's also the issue of range. If you're using a gun and get the drop on someone, you're shooting them from a certain distance and the game seems to take that into account. If you switch to melee, that advantage should disappear because now you're in ultra-close proximity.
I'm curious if this would be difficult on the coding side as you'd be asking to switch between an object's properties when it hits a certain state. I''m a terrible cigar though, so I couldn't say but sounds like lots of frustration.
I'm curious if this would be difficult on the coding side as you'd be asking to switch between an object's properties when it hits a certain state. I''m a terrible cigar though, so I couldn't say but sounds like lots of frustration.
I'm curious if this would be difficult on the coding side as you'd be asking to switch between an object's properties when it hits a certain state. I''m a terrible cigar though, so I couldn't say but sounds like lots of frustration.
I'm curious if this would be difficult on the coding side as you'd be asking to switch between an object's properties when it hits a certain state. I''m a terrible cigar though, so I couldn't say but sounds like lots of frustration.
Thanks internet, sorry about the, quadruple post? I blame lag.
Maybe all guns have a safety feature. When the safety is engaged, the gun is a melee weapon. When it's disengaged, it's a firearm.

You still have to watch your ammo and engage the safety when you're out of bullets, requiring active monitoring (and raising the question of why you don't just reload if you have another clip).

That would make it more likely that you only use your gun for melee either as a last resort or when you just want to be baller and smash someone's face in with a pistol whip.

This would also give guns a non-lethal option and in fact let them transform from lethal to non-lethal, although requiring a different skill. Should be considered.

Cool addition Crooknose. I think we're probably missing the balance issue also, guns are very strong, but part of the reason they're so strong is because they have the disadvantage of running out of ammo. Could be that guns become OP with this feature added, although I do think it's an awesome idea.
@Crook

That is a very smart approach to that. Thank you.

@Jmo

Here’s a balance solution; don’t make them that great of a melee weapon then. There is also a UE investment and monetary investment needed. Low to no ue invested in melee? Sure, be like Marleen and swing your gun like a doofus and do no damage.

High ue investment? You can buttstroke, muzzle punch and pistol whip as god intended.

Again, I can fight you with a slice of pie why not, right?

Dildos are absolutely made for combat.
Keyboard warrior-ing (get it?!) aside, Grizz has a perfectly valid point that no one has argued against at all. Literally every thing you can hold as far as I know can be used as a weapon (probably not a great one, in most cases). I don't really do combat and haven't fired a gun in like a decade in game but if what happens when you run out of ammo is you just stand there clicking an empty gun doing nothing with your combat rounds that's REAL silly. You should absolutely switch to melee skill (however UE invested you are/aren't) or insta-drop it and do the same regardless.

Yeah maybe it should be on player skill to be paying attention to manually do that I guess, but it feels silly, and smashing on a baka with your Poppop is kinda awesome, ngl.

Modern weapons are not made to be used as melee weapons. They are not really handy or doable, even if you turn them around. Easy to take away as well, as Marleen said.
Sorry to double post but also, the argument in any idea thread that goes 'maybe it's cool in movies but IN REAL LIFE...'

Duuude we're playing Johnny Mnemonic the Mud you're missing the point!

Please do not argue that you cannot use firearms as melee weapons. If you don’t like the idea that’s cool but make a valid point. Go do some YouTubing on the bayonet assault course or something. It’s a thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_as_a_blunt_weapon
I think more than anything this strikes me as a balance and code limitation.

The code limitation piece should be fairly obvious to you if you relate it to the WJF Enforcer II and it's two ammo types. The safety feature Crooknose mentions seems like a comparable toggle method though that could totally work.

That said, I've always enjoyed needing a backup weapon or HtH skill for the scenario when the gun jams or runs out of ammo. It adds some solid nuance to the firearm user and creates opportunities to do things like hand someone an unloaded weapon knowing they can't do much with it.

I will admit though - in my early days of SD I assumed melee was responsible for a firearms ability to parry.

A suitable CP gun modification would be my ideal compromise in this scenario but overall I'm just not feeling it.

Monomolecular bayonet attachment for rifles would be cool as fuck. As well as the scummy, run down mixer version of a piece of sharpened metal duct taped to your rifle.

Oh, pistol bayonets also exist if I recall correctly, so that opens up an entire new avenue.

Perhaps, if we wanted to get really technical. Base the rifle bayonet on long blades, and the pistol bayonet on short? For the sake of yknow, rifles being incredibly long in comparison to a pistol.

Any thoughs on this?

Also, ballistic knives should totally be a thing, but that's a topic for another thread.

Ok so I caught it late, but ya there's no good reason that this shouldn't be a thing +10
I was going to +1 this as a good idea, but...

Obviously you can't hit people with guns IRL, so we totally shouldn't be able to in the game.

And then don't even get me started on dual wielding empty pistols.

Dare we go down the rabbit hole of whether you prefer a two handed or one handed grip on your pistol?

Is a Seburo like a butter knife and a MK-23 like a khukuri?

Screw you Grizz. It's too early for my head to hurt this much!

Sharpen your trigger guard for maximum forehead gougings
If you can hit someone with a progia (i've done it) I don't see why shouldn't be able to do this, IRL navy seal experiences aside.
I didn't spend 3 hours of my life on a bayonet screaming

"WHAT MAKES THE GRASS GROW!?!"

"BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD!!!"

For nothing.

You can absolutely hit people with a rifle, bayonet mounted or otherwise. It's not ideal and I doubt it would do much damage, but it can be done if someone gets too close orrrrr really dire straights, you run out of bullets.

* on a bayonet range. I have never been stabbed with a bayonet thank jeebus.

Only thing I am unsure of is what skill this should use. I can see the logic of the melee skill being involved given it is an improvised tool as far as hitting things goes, but it is done with the weapon so maybe the normal weapon skill should apply?

@Mong

I was thinking that if it uses the weapon then it should depend on the weapon skill it usually would. Otherwise a separate skill investment would just make this a different flavour of mixing a shooter char with martial arts / brawling, just now using your gun as a club with the melee skill.

This is a balancing issue in my opinion. Guns can already be used to shoot people from rooms away. Needing to be wary of your remaining ammo and carry backup weapons is important.

That being said, having something like a safety where upon if on it switched to melee would be interesting. You would still need to be paying attention. However, I do think the melee of the weapons would be rather limited so as to not make them too uber.

@Slither

Low damage melee and the near total inability to parry anything at all might be fair.

Grizz will correct me if I am wrong here, but I do not get the sense that he is looking to create a new "class" or disturb the careful weapons balance.

My take away from the post is, "Why can I beat someone with literally ANYTHING from a slice of pizza to a flashlight, but not an empty weapon?"

I'd personally rather see a weapon mod introduced for meleeing with your gats than a safety toggle. God forgive the first time I run into a fight waving my brass around and forget to toggle it, only to get clubbed to death by someone. There's so many cool and CP ways we could take melee weapon attachments too, we don't need to be limited to RL/Modern augmentations for firearms like the bayonet, because we're in the future.

Might I suggest a rail mounted tazer that has bollocks hit, but fucks your stamina from the shock? Like a rifle mounted cattle prod, or perhaps a baton-head like object that ejects from the stock, switching you to melee while you wield a weapon that was hidden inside your weapon, rather than beating a guy with your 3D printed no reload piece of trash.

I like the safety idea as a quick kinda deal for this, but there's far more themely ways we could take this.

I'm still in the Slither boat of game balance but for your consideration: The Chainsaw bayonet! It could be fueled with ethanol. Have a limited use of say...3-5 attacks before needing to be refueled. Add decent weight to the gun.

Give me my GoW lancers. Chainsaw bayonet would be hot as fuck.
Pretty much Hek. With maybe a few flavored attack messages attached to it (such as grabbing the butt and barrel of a rifle and using the rifle to shove someone backwards before slamming your buttstock into their face.)

Also, if you have taken any kind of training with these, you can parry with a rifle. Again, not asking for it to be a melee character (or whatever skill it could factor) first choice either. It was also brought up to being a non-lethal alternative for gun users, which is something I didn’t initially consider but do like.

As for a chainsaw under barrel attachment, it is so crazy that I like it, but bayonets, chainsaws, probably should get their own thread. That is a whole different can of worms.

@Ryuzuki

Many people go into a gun fight forgetting to switch their safety off. I don’t see how that would be different from holding your stiletto without extending the blade, or the same with your baton.

@Grizz,

You aren't kidding about the safety. I literally have recurring nightmares of needing to use a weapon and discovering that the safety is on.

Balancewise, giving gun users the option to grab some points in melee for nonlethal ultraviolence is not so different from them using MA or Brawling for the same reason.
Using any makeshift weapon would still require a dip into Melee to be remotely effectively.

Reward people going the extra mile.

I agree with Vera here. It'd make more sense for this to be based on skill with the weapon itself if this were ever implemented.
I said the opposite of that. I'm pro-melee for pistol whipping and anti-pistols for pistol whipping.
To elaborate: whether a weapon is inherently lethal or not is a big deal and it's intentional that guns are all deadly because they'd be way better of they were all toggleable lethal/non using a single skill.

The design encourages you to pick the right tool (or person) for the job. TERRA doesn't walk around with knives because their job is not to kill people, etc.

should be a threshold like some weapons in the game that breaks the gun if you're not skillful enough if this is implemented
Maybe it'd be a cool addition using the melee skill, but then it's really just extra. Brawling and MA would do exactly the same thing and probably be more effective.

Guess I'm thinking more weak alternative mode to firearm skills for less-lethal action as opposed to melee skill for added flavour.

I agree with grizzly on the part that it should use another skill

otherwise gun users will stop taking MA and use this instead for non lethal, which I think is pretty much intentional like Vera said

This seems cool.

And it would make it hard to juggle effectively as it would be yet another possible synergy for two DIFFERENT classes. So I doubt it would end up unbalanced.

+1

What does it matter if you prefer to use your fists or not though? Freehands or drop the weapon in that case. I mean that argument is akin to “well, why don’t you just carry a bat around too?”

BECAUSE I LIVE IN A TRASH CAN AND CANT AFFORD IT MOTHERBAKA!

Melee is a relevant skill. Don’t like melee stuff don’t invest in it. Nobody is forcing you to not carry extra magazines or weapons (except maybe your economical situation) so you might never even have to utilize this if it ever came to be.

It would just be cool, in line with being able to use everything as a melee weapon, and add a non-lethal option is all.

Sure, but less-lethal options for gun users have been discussed before on the forum, thinking back to suggestions like rubber bullets. I don't think shooters should be forced to train in martial arts just to not have someone bleed out, but that's a matter of perspective.

If it were done for guns then it'd have to be for knives too, which is another thing to consider. (If going with gun skill over melee skill) Also keep in mind that guns can jam, which happens far often than one might think in certain situations.

Not arguing against the idea, by the way. I'm just exploring the merit of having it depend on pistol/rifle/smg skill rather than the melee skill.
Guns are extremely good for reasons I can't get into and the fact that they don't have nonlethal options is intentional. They've been discussed but such an addition would heavily skew things in their favor.

Weapons that have more or better nonlethal options have weaknesses elsewhere. This way you have assassination missions where it makes more sense to hire the gun guys and gang brawls where if you bring an uzi everyone is going to rightfully call you a serial killer. It stresses keeping people to their archetypes rather than just doing everything themselves.

Archetype schmarchetype nothing except the UE limit and skillsoft slots prevents you from investing in multiple weapons platforms or whatever the hell else if you felt like it and doing all kinds of things yourself.

Sure you won’t be Spec op Steve in terms of efficiency but that’s their choice/problem.

Once again, this would not be some kind of groundbreaking or game changing super weapon.

Well that's why I'm saying it should be melee. Wouldn't disrupt the current scheme of things too much and would give shooters another skill to think about instead of the current two that are popular.