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Scaling rolls to health condition

There should be a multiplier based on your default health condition which determines whether you're able to perform certain rolls such as:

* Evading a grapple

* Escaping a grapple

* Evading combat

* Initiating combat

* Jumping across rooftops

* Hitting your target in combat

The possibility of success should degrade as your health is reduced. That way you're less likely to evade a grapple if you're struggling to remain conscious compared to being in magnificent condition.

I do think that a certain endurance substat is used in such rolls but I'm not sure if they're involved in all of the ones you listed, or how heavily the substat affects them.
..I honestly thought this was already a thing? But thinking of it now.. I've been unable to grapple people who are so beaten they can't transition to an adjacent room but somehow could dodge an oncoming lunge.

So +1 for me.

Is this a "win more" mechanic? If I'm understanding right, it lowers the odds of dramatic comebacks and further punishes whoever gets worse die rolls in the beginning.

If that's the design goal then okay.

I think it's okay as it is. It takes some extremes to be able to reliably flee in the first place against competent attacked.
@ynk more or less a win more or a lose more depends how you see it. It's totally weird you can flee from combat, or evade a grapple, or break free of one when you can't even get your wallet out.
I do think it's silly how you can dodge grapple rolls while you're barely clinging to life. But instead of the health pool I'd argue it be tied to stamina/or change the rate of stamina scaling when it comes to those rolls so if you're exhausted you suffer drawbacks to evading a grapple, especially if you're at the point where you can't move.

Unless that is a thing but my personal experience has shown it isn't.

You cannot defend yourself when you are that extremely tired. Not 100% sure if that applies to grapple, but should.
@Marleen I'm making this post in light of recent IC events which have proven to be slightly meta because the code allowed for it by not checking whether you would actually be able to pull it off given your current stamina/health pool. I know what I'm talking about.
I am aware of the event you have in mind, and that sounds more like a bug than need to revamp of mechanics.
I think some scaling depending on your stamina would make sense.
It is a little silly when someone who can't walk or defend themselves is dodging grapples.
I still maintain that it should not be locked to the health pool directly because that leads to a whole new avenue of combat metas that I can't talk about here and it should be related to your stamina status and not your health status in my opinion.
Yeah I am just saying if your stamina is so low you literally can't fight or walk, you shouldn't be able to dodge grapples. That's all.
I just think that if you're that beat up, maybe you should just RP your state. We don't need to put in an inflexible system that removes player agency to make those attempts and comebacks.
This is a serious problem that's existed for years to varying degrees of humour and awkwardness and isn't comparable to the issue people have with your coded charisma change suggestion, RSB.
We try to rely on players to not be power gaming twinks, but unfortunate situations happen from time to time.
Similar situations has happened to me where I was majorly fucked up and exhausted but could still dodge grapples.

In which case I usually just @trust them to grapple me and let them do it and not resist, but having scaling with stamina to ensure it doesn't happen would be beneficial if there are players not abiding by this, though even this kind of code change would probably change a few combat mechanics from the top of my head.

I'm not sure this is necessary. If someone goes down in a fight it's pretty much a guarantee you can do whatever you want to them if they're totally exhausted. That is, assuming the experience I recall where I was unable to dodge a grapple due to exhaustion is being remembered correctly.

Even if someone manages to escape a grapple while on low health it would mean that their condition isn't screwed to the point that they're crawling yet. And if they're close to that state then catching them would be easier since they may or may not collapse.

I just don't see how it's any different than you stabbing the living drek out of someone, bringing them extremely near death, then them managing to flee. It's a thing that, in my opinion, should remain possible unless the game says they're exhausted.

My only problem is that I remember dying, getting resus'd and still being able to dodge a grapple right after somehow to the extent I had to @trust the person to allow them to do it. Which was really weird.
I like this idea in general but I have a few questions:

1. Would this make agility and stealth even more necessary/OP (because getting the first hit and MORE hits in would cause your opponent to death-spiral faster)?

2. If it's tied to stamina, would that lower the usefulness of armor?

3. If it's tied to health, would that more or less guarantee the win between equal combatants when one of them strikes first?

These questions mainly pertain to it lower combat effectiveness. I don't have any problem at all with lowered chance to flee combat or evade/escape grapples. The situation villa is referencing was a bit silly and I think it does point to an unrealistic element in those mechanics.

Without getting into mechanics to answer your questions Crook

It'd not make agility or stealth more OP, or lower the usefulness of armor, or guarantee a win between equal combatants.

Because we (at least most of us here have agreed on this I believe) aren't saying your rolls should be degrading as you get more injured -- just that if you're very tired to the point where you can't walk or take out an item you also shouldn't be able to flee or dodge a grapple or whatever else (or at least suffer major drawbacks)

Strongly oppose.

On the spectrum of ridiculous, impossible, reality-defying events, a grapple breaking once during some RP wouldn't really rise to the bar of 'revamp the combat system'. It's something to RP around, not a fundamental flaw in the system.

A very highly realistic combat system wouldn't be fun, and fun should always (and usually does) trump fun when we're talking about a game, rather than a simulator, and win-more mechanics would certainly be a negative addition to what is already the very all-or-nothing affair that combat often is in SD.

Trump realism, excuse me.
If you have to crawl around then you shouldn't be able to escape, but if you're in a fight and you're injured that should have zero affect on your ability to flee. You can already grab someone for sure while they're unconscious, so beat the shit out of them then snatch them if you can't grapple them normally.

Now... if they're able to break your grapple and they still have some juice left do be ready to pursue, or have a plan in place in case that happens. I think this is very similar to when a system was asked for so vehicles couldn't be opened from the inside by unauthorized characters. No capture should be one hundred percent successful until someone is safely within your evil lair.

I have to admit I did the wording wrong. Your health shouldn't affect your ability to flee. Only your stamina. It's silly that you can do certain combat related things when you can't even stand up if you were sitting down.
Literally just, if you are too tired to even stand up you should not be able to dodge a grapple from a healthy person. It happens very frequently and it's always quite silly.

If I just stabbed you so much you passed out, and you're gasping for air on the floor, unable to get up or defend yourself, you shouldn't be nimbly leaping out of the way when I go to pick you up so I can take you to the hospital or my nerd jail or whatever.

Ohhhhh. I get it, right, that makes sense to me, yes.
So... First off, as far as I'm aware this is a thing... It may just need to be balanced such that at extreme edge levels of a statistic the math drops it down far enough. May be that the indications I've seen of it being a thing are just outlier rolls though.

-But- as an aside,

So here it's perfectly okay to place a systematic or scaling restriction removing player agency on a stat or action, based on another unrelated stat?

Second aside...

Hell if it's not already a thing, implementing this might allow some fun, I can foresee a lot of "good gameplay" in grieving people by catching them roofhopping places up high or with no sane route down without injury, and, beating them near to death then choking them out twice, robbing them, and just leaving them there to wait the hours or days they'd need to recover that fatigue and injury enough to hop home.

Third aside...

That second aside might be the reason that it's not a thing.

Second situation, you can call a medic in, thus more RP.
Medics in this aren't particularly known for their agility and feats of freerunning, but sure, that's an option. Would most people new to roof hopping, or even those who are novices at it consider it? Would most medics, experienced enough to hop or not, go for the potentially suicidal move of grabbing someone off a roof...

Another option maybe would be calling an aero to cart in a medic with everup or someone to grab you, but at that point the bills on someone who just got robbed and trapped go up and up and up, and it would again be too easy to do to people who might not think of these solutions, which would just immensely please the griefers. And it gets exponentially stupider from there. Like some rooftops not allowing you to land on them.

But that is a good option for RP yeah.

I don't think we need to craft elaborate scenarios and strategize in this thread. It's just a little silly that you can dodge a grapple if you're so exhausted that I can just kick you and you'll pass out.
What Vera said.
What Vera said.
Directly scaling the rolls would vastly influence combat and turn it into a game of who gets the first hit, so we probably shouldn't do that.

I agree with this, and this is why the system is the way it is when it comes to combat rolls.

The system already takes into account defending yourself while severely fatigued-- you don't. If you are only able to crawl, you are only able to crawl, you can't be dodging katana slashes or bullets.

If you are dodging grapples while in a condition where you would otherwise be crawling or not defending yourself in combat this is an oversight in the grapple code and should be @bug'd so it can be fixed. We already do fatigue checks on a number of other actions, and dodging a grapple should be one of them.