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The Ganger item/trade system.
Some concerns.

So, I and some others have admitted to annoyance or disliking at or of the system of giving gangers weapons or drugs. Drugs make more sense, however some of us see it as an endless loop of people having newbies give people things to get their chy and avoid the weekly payment system. This seems more like code abuse than anything to me, and I was wondering if there was anything that can be done. I'd propose a change.
What change do you propose and why do you think this is a problem?
I think it's a problem as it's rather bloating to the economies workings, as well as aquiring of chy far too fast with minimal difficulty. I feel that the way it's going has made conflict lower because of the way it is going, as well as the fixer market for such items. Why are there so many hatchets?

I'm unsure of how balance goes, but I feel it's already unbalanced, so it couldn't hurt to throw a few ideas out there. Perhaps, simply, making them need less on the weapons and armor front. Drugs are perfect the way they are, but the huge chy amounts being abused by those who can get their hands on them with armor and weapons is just...meh. Or, simply, less of those items to go around. I can't swing a dead cat without finding five newbies giving a snake a hatchet because of how slow ACME can be to some.

Another option is simply to reduce the trading systems with them in general, as it would make sense that they can get things from non player sources.

How this was meant to be is an Art attacks a Snake. Takes their weapon and then sells it back to them so they will make profit and make them look like fucking bakalakas. Now, I do agree that it's 'easy' to get a hold of these items, but you're talking about 11,000 to 20,000 chyen worth of weapons. If immies want to buy 11,000 for a heavy bolo to make a 4,000 profit, then it's on them.

You underestimate how much money someone truly makes per transaction. This is also supposed to be a way for people to get closer with a gang, but very small amounts of people want to actually join gangs to begin with.

Exactly. And seeing as ganger on NPC combat rarely happens as far as I can see, that is already not happening. And no, I don't underestimate, as I have done both parts of it, and it still feels like abuse. I can see what it was meant for, but that is not what's being done. At all.
I personally think the system is fine. People think gangers themselves make more money than they actually do. But, to me, it's not about how much money someone gets but where they spend it that matters. If someone gets 20,000 in a week and does nothing with it, then it's boring for everyone. Spending that 20,000 and creating RP is way more fun.
I haven't played a fixer character, but I notice a lot of new people landing on the grid are seem to be going in that direction for one reason or another. If staff thinks the balance is a problem, I'd just recommend raising the skill checks at the market.

Make it so only truly skilled traders get super good deals. In the end the fixers will always find a way to make a profit by either knocking each other off (IC competition) or duping immies with bad cuts (which can have IC consequences). It's up to the immies to decide whether they want that quick payout of 3000 chy, or if they want to wait for crates/other NPC income and make potentially more.

I suppose. But stockpiling makes (I guess) sense. I don't feel that the way this is being done and the ignoring of weekly payment amounts is really that good. It's not promoting rp, at all. Even less so than someone saving that 20k to get a badass gun in 6 months. They'll have that, eventually. But with this it's just an unending loop of things that wouldn't ICly make sense.

I would say that, no, a ganger should not be directly selling their enemy weapons. Not openly and directly at least. Instead get other players involved like fixers.
Agreed, Grey. One, why would they be supplying them. Two, how would said "them" -ONLY- be able to get from the player characters, and three...why are they paying so much when the OTHER IC places, have much cheaper of the same. Those much cheaper pieces of the same item are even being used to resell to said gangers. Why would they not buy direct?
Oh, yeah. It's what I meant. Ganger A takes Ganger B's weapon. A gives weapon for someone to sell. A keeps the majority of the flash and gives some to someone.

Don't think it's that bad since the 'taking the weapon' part is harder than it seems. Item farming isn't allowed either way. If I'd say anything would be to just limit the amount of ganger weapons in the market. Make it like, 2 of each a week. First come first served.

Seir, it's because they are paying for the item itself from STOCK and delivery. It's why -every- item you sell to a ganger will be higher from retail. Depending on your alignment with the gang.
It's not allowed, but this more or less is indirect item farming, Sol. And it's happening a TON.
If you think people are item farming gangers and taking advantage of the system, make a note and/or xhelp about it if you think staff might need some more information.
That's what this was supposed to be. I wanted to know if I was out of my goddamn mind by thinking it, is all.

Nah. Work your hustle as best as you can. Be greedy! I think we are on the same page. :-)


Part of this is about ganger rep in my opinion. Gangers are high up on the food chain and better off financially than many others. And they look boss by ordering other bakas to go buy their crap for them.

At the same time, I would prefer it if non-consumable gear simply not vanish and need to be replaced - and, as far as I know, it shouldn't as things stand right now. So if an NPC wants a Hockey stick and Eco-Gear, they will stop asking for them once they have the goods - until they lose them.

+1 to Greyo.
Seir I think that you don't know that 90% of the economy in the Mix revolves around gear flow. The same applies for gangers and syndicates pretty much all the time.

People who have other people sell gear through immies to gangers and allegedly make a "ton" of money don't actually make a "ton" of money all the time.

Sindome has a living breathing economy so if everyone pushes cricket bats to Sinners, sooner or later there will be no more supply of cricket bats, or no demand as everyone has them. This means GMs (or players, in their greedy motivations) will have to push gang wars to "flush" the gear predisposition.

Likewise if you spend a X amount of chy on a hatchet, you have to run a few risks such as: carrying chy to the markets, carrying the hatchet from the markets to your runner or ganger, what if the immy fucks you over? What if the GANGER fucks over the immy because they caused shit in their turf? Plus if you aren't a fixer, you've got to pay them a huge cut, plus the immy's cut.

The system is perfect as it is because it's the perfect combination of risk vs. reward in terms of what a business man who wants to sell gear to gangers must do and invest in order to perceive a reward. Not to mention the RP and plot it ensues: you get to manage people, get them to work for you, introduce people to the ropes of the game's inner workings, and employ a whole array of people who are all generating money necessary to advance their plots.

Punishing people for actually figuring out business schemes and making money out of ordinary way and exploiting others, instead of running crates seems very against the Sindome spirit.

And if immies are getting fucked over, well, it's Withmore. You're always going to get fucked over.

That's not what I'm saying. I feel this is detracting from the people who should be making such buisness schemes, as...what's the need? There's tons of chy right here, with a bunch of random machetes I already sold four times over this week.

I never meant punish people for making a scheme. I want more schemes.

That might be true. If selling to gangers is so profitable why do anything else? I get that.

I guess I would say that this might solve itself organically. If you have a dozen bakas all trying to make their fortune by selling to gangers, then it's going to be hard for any of them to succeed. So the one who moves into a less crowded market will have an advantage maybe. Also, hopefully these dozen PCs are greedy and trying to cheat, steal, trick, kill their way to success over the others. Conflict. Conflict is good.

All the same, I would not be disappointed with a buying price somewhere between what it is now and what it was before. Enough for there to be a profit but on a much more narrow margin. Or course, this might just result in fixers including fewer players in the action. Fewer Immies getting jobs and being included.

See grey. You say that. But there are already a dozen bakas doing it, and it is not changing at all.
A glut of fixers will result in the less dedicated ones getting frustrated by a lack of supply/runners while the more die-hard ones will start killing their competition. :p
Maybe. But a coded change to this couldn't hurt.
it may not hurt, but is it worth changing the code for this when there are other important things to be worked on?
To be honest, making it so that once gangers have the armor/weapons they asked and make it so they can't be given in again is really beneficial overall. I like that, makes it so people want them to fight and lose their weapons to cycle it through. That's just me personally though.
I feel as though Villa has appropriately summarised everything I could think to say on this, so I refer you back to Villa's post.
So here's the process. You have Generic Ganger and he needs a Weapon, an Armor, and a drug.

He's constantly using a drug so he's constantly asking for more.

The weapon and armor he asks for he only asks for while he has it.

To make way for the high value item sells again, you have to take them from the ganger.

This creates a cycle that's controlled by us.

Now, when we take the stuff from the ganger there are consequences that we have to face.

These consequences create roleplay opportunities for gang players other people. Jobs

Meanwhile, else MOO, there are item and chyen sinks and items being created.

So this person who got the items from the ganger may end up resupplying them through hiring people to do it for them. More jobs.

At the same time, people might buy new items to sell to the ganger. This puts the person who got the items out in money.

The item sinks, on the other hand, eventually gobble up the excess items and restore a sense of balance, while producing chyen.

And then the money sinks are all over, pulling chyen out of the economy permanently.

It's a very large cycle where influxes of chyen happen and then are later gobbled up by a hungry MOO. It's a working economy.

I think you guys are just finding things to complain about. The system is fine and serves a direct purpose.

Did you know there is a coded standing system that’s been around for over a decade that adjusts your standing with said faction for RP and other purposes? The scavenger system is one method to raise your standing, while lowering it with their rivals. It is not some consequence free and get rich with no explanation. You only make out like a bandit if you killed someone with the armor or weapon they need and you run it to them yourself and you aren’t disliked by them.

Drugs are not exactly the most profitable either but you make a reasonable amount and given the lack of pc drug addicts it is a great substitute for being a drug dealer. The system is great as is imo and I’ve seen it work since it’s induction.

I'm a big fan of the rep/trading ganger system but with the current iteration of the ganger code - it does feel a bit like the item (namely baton) farming people were doing some time ago with Terra agents but I haven't had enough exposure to really mess with it and the PC's doing it to see what the threshold for abuse is.

Crates/Hatches/Whatever are supposed to serve as opportunities to get newbie's familiar with the game. Not just from a transactional PC to NPC stand point but to allow them to better subvert other PC's. Yeah, you can make a lousy 3-9k...or you can rip the supplier off by snagging the whole payout and buy a hoodie then hope they don't recognize you. If that's working - awesome! If it's just item farming for oldbie's with more steps - not so awesome.

That said, admin are generally very responsive to in-game exploitation. You want something to change - don't complain about it. Prove them wrong not in theory but in action and they'll change it.

Fair enough, Reefer said it better than I and captured what I meant. Apologies if I mis explained my attempt or questioning.