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I've been guilty of this in the past, so I'll admit that out of the gate.
But, I am curious. What's the point of being fast enough or elusive enough to evade someone's initial attempt to attack you if they can just spam and get you anyway?
Haven't I read somewhere that spamming attack commands like that is against the rules?
I would greatly appreciate some clarification on this topic.
Thanks everyone.
By Wulf at Feb 29, 2024 6:38 AM
Spamming attack is actually against the rules, yeah, discussed by Johnny some time ago. I remember because I spammed attack on someone and after realized how cheesy that was (this mostly came from my experience with combat in another game where commands were single entry, but it didn't feel right so I looked it up).
I can't remember where the link is, whether it's on the boards or in an @town-hall meeting log, but we aren't suppose to do it. The attack command has a check against movement/flee/aim and other stuff and we aren't suppose to spam attack to prevent them from leaving the room if their check succeeds. I believe we're allowed to chase and attempt to re-engage, but not just spam in the same room.
By crashdown at Feb 29, 2024 6:41 AM
Staff did call this out specifically. Spamming or stacking attack commands is not okay and against the rules. If it's still happening maybe a reminder would be good. Or, and I am hesitant to do this, a very short timer put on attack/kill to prevent spamming it. If this is done, maybe make the timer target specific.
By Grey0 at Feb 29, 2024 6:43 AM
I've never seen this happen before outside of like...fooling around between chums. Didn't even know there was ever an issue with it. If it's a thing, I could get behind a timer as well. Short timer by target, like Greyo said, and it resets if you move rooms.
By RatchetEffect at Feb 29, 2024 6:45 AM
The only way is to make a timer.
Otherwise, people WILL break the rules on purpose in order to get what they want, which can, and has(I know this personally) serious IG consequences that completely change the course of everything, that can't just be undone.
And also, some will just do it accidentally in the heat of the most. Combat is intense.
By Wulf at Feb 29, 2024 6:46 AM
There's supposed to be a set amount of times you can attempt to attack someone but I'm not sure I remember what it is, maybe twice? I can't remember what the thread that was discussed at is called. A timer after that might be okay as long as it doesn't set off the timer on all things combat in general. It's already next to impossible to catch up to someone who's using a go command to run away from you because when you hit their tile the game tells you that you can't even aim at them, then they leave.
By Necronex666 at Feb 29, 2024 6:57 AM
I have done, and seen, many attempts to attack, like 5+, several times through my 4-5 years in Sindome.
By Wulf at Feb 29, 2024 6:58 AM
You're allowed to do it up to twice I mean, anyone spamming attack five times is just cheesing the system.
By Necronex666 at Feb 29, 2024 6:59 AM
It's been a while since I've done combat related stuff, but don't you auto leave the room anyway on a flee? Either by typing it or by succeeding a check against attack command?
So...is this only an issue with grapple?
By RatchetEffect at Feb 29, 2024 6:59 AM
Oh. Aim though. Nevermind
By RatchetEffect at Feb 29, 2024 7:00 AM
"It's been a while since I've done combat related stuff, but don't you auto leave the room anyway on a flee? Either by typing it or by succeeding a check against attack command?
So...is this only an issue with grapple?"
No. I have experienced, several times, getting the message, 'you have fled from Joe Baka's attempt to assault you', only to have them move and block my route soon after. I've even seen 'you have fled from Joe Baka's attempt to assault you' get spammed on my screen 3, 4, 5 times until I was locked in combat.
By Wulf at Feb 29, 2024 7:02 AM
"Oh. Aim though. Nevermind"
So someone can attack, and if it fails, immediately aim at you, then attack you again? That still seems kind of cheesy.
By Wulf at Feb 29, 2024 7:03 AM
Flee is extremely effective. I suspect when you may be encountering is the timing overlap during a chase scene, wherein, if the game still thinks you're in motion you need to 'stop moving' and 'attack' or 'aim' once more to cease the chase.
This is a bit of esoteric combat knowledge which isn't commonly advertised but often taught on a more personal basis.
By ReeferMadness at Feb 29, 2024 7:59 AM
I didn't know about that spam attack rule. I appreciate that rule, but why isn't there some sort of mechanics that enforce it?
I've seen flee to be pretty effective, the main problem I've experienced is the person attacking usually has the advantage as far as pre-meditating. When i'm fleeing i'm usually in a panic and caught unawares, which on an OOC level can be confusing and make me flub commands or not flee in the smartest direction. It certainly has served it's purpose of saving my life multiple times.
By Grig at Feb 29, 2024 8:36 AM
Fleeing is not the same as someone failing an attack on someone in motion. When someone is moving from room to room, it is nearly impossible to attack them. However, aiming is the official and correct way to counter this. If you removed aiming to prevent walking away, PVP would be impossible to initiate. Flee from combat if it starts using the correct command, it gives you a pretty decent head start on getting away.
By batko at Feb 29, 2024 8:42 AM
Attacking someone moving can be done but there is a roll and most combat character's tank one of the stats involved so it just SEEMS impossible. If anything, the check on stopping someone with aim is too easy when compared with attack or grapple. I have always dreamed of the day this gets looked at and potentially fixed.
But yes, it seems the original post isn't talking about the 'flee' command but instead about when someone fails to 'attack' someone in motion but tries to counter this by spamming attack so they can roll that check over and over and over again. Regardless, the answer here is probably to not min-max so much instead of spamming commands.
The fact that 'aim' is handled different than 'grapple' and 'attack' is a bad thing in my opinion. I think it removes one's motivation to improve a character's ability to grapple or successfully attack moving targets. I am not against min-maxing. I just feel that characters should suffer and embrace the consequences of it even if the consequence is that you can't stop anyone worth a damn.
By Grey0 at Feb 29, 2024 9:43 AM
If someone is moving through a room and you attack them and combat doesn't start because they made the evasion check, you cannot fire off another attack to try again, it would fall afoul of @rule 4.1.
I actually think 4.A could be a lot more explicit on this because players will always try to push their luck on interpreting 'every few seconds' as 'ten times in 0.5 seconds' or just indulge in a little cheeky code exploitation, as a treat, hoping no one will notice.
As far I know, as regards prior yelly instructions from staff, after a failed intercept you don't get another bite at the apple in that same room with an attack command.
By 0x1mm at Feb 29, 2024 1:32 PM
While there is a rule about it, is there ever any actual protection in place besides a "Don't do it"? What sort of reconciliation is there if someone uses something like this to kill or even perm you? Especially if there are no staff on to talk about it with, either. Things can be said and done and it could be hours, and yet all of those things could be unrecoverable by then.
By robotdogfighter at Mar 24, 2024 11:52 AM
Just go @ooc and xhelp straight away that they tried to exploit the code by spamming the command, so you won't participate if they're going to cheese the system.
By Beepboop at Mar 24, 2024 12:00 PM
This really needs to be hard coded in some way. A lot of people get a shot of the old adreno-juice when they go to pick a fight, and might spam on accident. And that can be used to cover cheesing.
Just hardcode it.
By SmokePotion at Mar 24, 2024 12:02 PM
I don't believe you can go OOC in combat. After combat it's probably too late. Maybe I misremember and someone else can correct me.
Further, not all players know that this is a no-no so aren't watching for it. Of those who do, some may not know what it looks like when someone does it to them. Others may not realize it until after, when i'ts all said and done and they are breathing even again.
By Grey0 at Mar 24, 2024 12:05 PM
I
do not recommend ever combat logging, you're just as likely to get dinged for code abuse whatever the justification was for doing it.
There's already coded cooldowns on certain commands, others don't have them because they have legitimate purposes for being used several times in succession. It is not really possible to programmatically fence complex group combat from any edge cases, but there's no command spam that exists that is going to perm someone.
By 0x1mm at Mar 24, 2024 12:07 PM
Never said spam will cause the perm, but that doesn't stop them from snapping your neck after they spammed it to force you into combat and take you out.
By robotdogfighter at Mar 24, 2024 12:12 PM
I do not recommend ever combat logging, you're just as likely to get dinged for code abuse whatever the justification was for doing it.Agreed. This is part of why I don't know for sure if you can @ooc in combat. I don't do it and wouldn't do it.
It is not really possible to programmatically fence complex group combat from any edge cases
I agree that you can't stop every possible abuse. More will likely be found. But that doesn't mean coding in protections against known methods of abuse is pointless or shouldn't be done. I don't know if staff feels it is needed here or not, not my call. I just don't see this as a reason to not even try and ward off known issues.
there's no command spam that exists that is going to perm someone.
I think this is situational. I agree there is no player side single command that just perms a character. But something like this could result in a character being permed instead of escaping had the ability to do this been blocked.
By Grey0 at Mar 24, 2024 12:12 PM
I know Reefer said before that the flee command is extremely effective, but I've literally never seen it actually work before. Definitely limited experience, but still. Considering you're already at a disadvantage using it since they can just attack you again after, I feel like it should be a little stronger than it is.
By Emily at Mar 24, 2024 12:15 PM
Flee can be very strong (exhibit A a character famously moonwalking backwards through a room of attackers with clever movement) but like everything combat related is a contested skill check that characters actually have to be able to make.
I feel like this thread is running with an assumed hypothetical that isn't really based in typical gameplay, in all my years of playing I've only seen someone double dip on intercepts two or three times and once was clearly not intentional.
Players will see the action feedback messages if a player character is spamming, fire off an XHELP about it and in the very niche scenario when it's a permanent death just don't release your bit into character generation before talking to staff.
By 0x1mm at Mar 24, 2024 12:23 PM
Fleeing is extremely strong with the right character in my own experience. Combats with multiple attackers equally as strong or stronger than my own character have been ended with a simple goodbye and a lot of queued movement to safe places.
As for spamming attacks on moving characters, I recall Johnny stating that he hard coded a stacking penalty to your next check if you fail it and try again within the same room. This is NOT about aiming as it was originally discussed in this thread, aiming is working as intended as far as I know. Spamming kill on a moving character is considered code abuse, but I do recall there being a safeguard.
By batko at Mar 24, 2024 12:35 PM
So is spam aiming allowed?
By robotdogfighter at Mar 24, 2024 1:02 PM
There is no fail state to aiming. You either aim or you don't. Once you aim, someone can flee from your aim command as if fleeing from combat. You cannot 'spam aim'.
By batko at Mar 24, 2024 1:03 PM
As for spamming attacks on moving characters, I recall Johnny stating that he hard coded a stacking penalty to your next check if you fail it and try again within the same room.Very glad to hear that. I think that addresses the original concern if I'm not mistaken!
By Grey0 at Mar 24, 2024 3:53 PM
I am fairly sure it's still considered code abuse if you do spam it, even with that measure, as a heads up.
By batko at Mar 24, 2024 11:14 PM
