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[Dec '20] Improvements Feedback
Feed me your back! RIGHT MEOW!

Typos be gone!

Thank for fixing typos. gayme lookz much niser!

I know I'm personally responsible for 30+ typo reports, so thank you Mench for letting me put you to work!
Even though there's not been a Critter-dex update for December posted yet, I'mma just slap this here: It would be a great chyen sink if critters could be revived with an item for a heftin' price of 5,000c for people who don't want to grind up a new pet after accidentally forgetting to check on their murder-pets for a day.
CRITTER-DEX MESSAGING

It feels like it is a bit extreme. Just two PCs in a room with these things can create epic levels of scroll. I personally think it would be nice if this was tuned down a little. It feels excessively spammy to me.

CRITTER-DEX INVESTMENT

It feels to me like it takes a lot more commitment than it should to keep your critter alive and reasonably happy. I think they are a great addition to the game but it feels like the time investment needed is a little excessive. To the point where it seems like keeping them alive and reasonably happy becomes more demanding than your cushy corporate job.

CRITTER SCAN COOLDOWN

I apologize if this one is nothing more than me being ignorant. But ever since this was 'fixed' I have been unable to scan anything without getting the empty package scan again later message. Even things I know 100% I have never scanned before Even after about 8 hours of trying off and on. Maybe I am not getting something or it's specific to me but it seems concerning from my limited point of view.

Yeah, I've been getting way too many 'empty packages' today - even from things I never scanned before - to the point I gave up scanning anything at all. It was either 'nothing found', or 'empty package', I think I found maybe one or two things I got something from today.
Reposting in proper thread, with clarification and some grammar:

So, the CorpShare Market released, and I'm slightly surprised there's just a release statement and nothing else, because I expected a few necessary OOC clarifications about two major questions:

1. Sometimes, corporations ICly have major releases (like Critterdexes, for example) that are the work of staff implementing new features, but are ICly fluffed as being corporate achievements. It seems to me that we face a situation where these either need to go unreflected in stock prices whatsoever if stock price is meant to be a player-driven feature, or they are reflected in the prices, making them more reflective of actual IC happenings, but heavily muddled the waters in terms of players competing for rewards from stocks based on what corporation benefitted from their own actions to boost their (invested) corps prices versus the staff's feature release. (and better OOC information about what features are more likely to release next becomes insider trading knowledge)

2. Owning shares, or being invested in a corporation capable of reaping benefits from its share price increasing immediately casts an extremely wide (far wider than before) net of conflict of interest, wherein any staff member with a corporate alt is almost immediately entangled with conflicting interests when participating in any plot that either harms their alt's corps stock or boosts their rivals in the competition, and I am curious if there is any addition or explanation for how this interacts with standing admin rules.

Thank you.

I never said corpshare stock was player driven. Players and plots have the ability to affect it, yes, but plenty of other stuff that players and admin alts have no control over and minimal visibility into affects it as well.

Anyone can buy stock in any corporation. Thus, if X corporation releases a new TV show (one that I write, and produce), anyone can say to themselves 'hmm, this could be really successful!' and buy stock.

Stock changes do not happen all at once. They play out over varying amounts of time, like the real stock market.

It will be very seldom that a stock jumps a LOT on a single day. Or vice versa, it falls a lot on a certain day.

Individuals do not reap the benefits of their corporations share price. Individuals cannot profit individually off of buying/selling stock. Only corporations can.

A single individual can win a prize offered by the corps for investing well. These prizes are not tied to your own corporation doing well. They are just individual characters making good choices with regards to when to buy/sell stock.

As time goes on we will release ways for players to get a read on what direction a stock might be heading, through $chatter systems, plots, and other stuff.

Only more senior admin have the ability to interact with the corpshare market and trigger events that affect share prices. I don't forsee any tangible conflict of interest here, because any admin that has the ability to influence the corpshare market will be ineligible to collect any winnings via their alt, should they win any of the cycle prizes.

They won't be prevented from competing, since that would be visible and strange, just from making any money.

(Edited by Slither at 4:56 pm on 12/6/2020)

With a max payout of 50k a quarter, I don't think CorpShares are really worth alarming over abuse. Individuals gaming the systems stand to gain considerably more off other systems like Deathball than CorpShares and even then - the payout is inconsequential compared to the net gains of individuals who are really out there hustling.
)) saying corpshare isn't or isn't largely 'player driven' doesn't assuage the raised concerns, it mostly just drives down the original incentives the 'stock market' promoted and was interesting for when it was introduced

)) saying big jumps generally don't happen daily doesn't matter. incremental abuse is still abuse. if it happens.

)) "Individuals do not reap the benefits of their corporations share price." then what's the point? considering how theme ties into how ferociously corp-as-identity exists, there's no interesting conflict to be had to risk your entire career / identity in some weird meta-game to -maybe- make a one-time payoff at the risk of like, execution / firing / whatever for investing in 'the enemy'. none of it makes sense.

)) " These prizes are not tied to your own corporation doing well" -- again, what's the point? none of this makes sense / defeats the original purposes as stated / does anyone here know what 'stocks' are and how they work?

to be clear, i'm 100% understanding slither's explanation that at least 'senior admin' won't have alts eligible to receive any profits. i'm less worried about staff abuse (though it remains, obviously, possible) and more worried that nothing about the system, as now live, makes any sense.

there's a great deal of ambiguous language around 'investing well' or players who 'do well'.

i get that this introduces potentially interesting situations where players in rival corporations 'invest' cross-ways successfully, etc. but there's an insane amount of room for player AND staff abuse / meta for what 'success' of different corproate assets / projects means, things that are difficult to measure, so how the winners/losers are resulted is going to be a minefield.

'50k a quarter isn't worth gaming the system over'

players worth a LOT still run crates. people will game whatever they can, come on.

CORPSHARE THOUGHTS

I actually had many of the same concerns as PCow and Jamerson way back when this was first talked about but have since come to peace with it. As with most any mechanics system, you can put IC scaffolding around it to explain away most anything. In this case, however, it doesn't take all that much in terms of mental gymnastics. Here's some things that might help others:

Players can INFLUENCE stock priced but they are not the main driving force. In most cases these are global megacorps. They have product released and business all over. It's not just Withmore. Even if it WAS just Withmore PCs represent like1% of a corporations workforce at best. Personally, I am glad that PCs can influence prices (sometimes heavily) but that the rest of the world is still considered.

I am not sure what Jameson is referring to when they talk about the original purpose of the stock market. As far as I can tell, what was introduced does in fact meet the purposes staff presented. Perhaps there is a disconnect between what staff want from this system and what Jameson thought was desired from this system?

Do keep in mind that PCs NEVER actually own stock. Those saying they do are just simplifying things. Like the renter of a bar saying they own it. What these corpies have is the ability to use their corps money to buy shares their corps will then own. When the sell those shares the profits (or losses) belong to the Corp. All that slick trading you did to earn the company millions? Yeah. That's why you got that 50k reward. Can you feel the love?

Why would a corp invest in other Corps? Diversification. Why wouldn't Saedor Krupp want to get a piece of the pie when ViriiSoma does some awesome new thing that boosts their value? Why wouldn't NeoTrans want to have a revenue stream like this to help them through troubled months? If NLM has a really bad week but their employees managed to help mitigate that by playing the marked in a clever way, then things might not be as bad as they could have been.

How does this help to drive Corp vs Corp play? By pushing the PCs in corps to try and be invested in their own Corp's activities and enhance them. To encourage PC to understand better what is going on in other Corps. And yes, they could always take risky actions to influence themselves or other corps.

I do feel that a lot of players still fail to realize that, over the course of the last few years, getting fired and falling has become far less likely than it was in the past. NPC bosses expect mistakes to be made and are far more pragmatic and consider the layers more. Your Corpie gets caught having a private meeting with a mixer? Looks bad. If it becomes a trend you will fall. But if you can justify it reasonably well and course correct, you'll be fine. This is the same across the board. Staff seems to be more interested in Corpie PCs making moves and eating the failures that come with them then they are in casting out the PCs who are at least TRYING to drive story over little things.

It is also my impression that Corp vs Corp RP has been intentionally moving from insular us versus them hate mongering to a more fuzzy borders with levels and nuances PvP environment. Corpies are kind of expected to mix and get involved in each others business a little more than in the past. The CorpShare system isn't lowering the walls between Corps. That was already done long before CorpShare was introduced.

CORPSHARE SUGGESTION

All that being said, I would love it if there was some tiny factor introduced that give slight encouragement to employees to more reason care more about their corps stock prices than the prices of other corps. I am not sure how should look but my first thought is to give make shares in your own corp provide just a tiny bit more value to your portfolio than shares in any other corp. Not enough to discourage investment in other stocks but enough to make investing in your own corp preferable if all else was equal. Maybe just a tiny bonus on earnings made when selling stocks from your own corp?

So I love the corpshare stock market implementation so far, but it feels like it changes way too slow. It's not super engaging at the speed with which it seems to be changing right now.

I understand that may be to allow players that don't have a ton of playtime to participate on relatively equal footing, but I feel like there could be a compromise between the excitement of riding rapid fluctuations and accessibility.

So just a thought on how to tie it back to the corporation.

Keep the prize for the best investor. That's good. You're making funds for your corp, congrats.

But why not have something where employees who's company stock did the best, get a bonus if they were also working in the CorpShare system. It would be a way for players to get a small bonus if their corp did the best over a quarter. Make it a % of pay, nothing too major, but something to at least give a reason for the company to work together to increase their overall market share.

So that way there is an award for the best investor, but more important, a smaller reward for the members of a company who manage to have the best quarter.

@BlazingCoconut This makes a lot of sense! Honestly. If the corp's value is higher, it should be able to pay better too. And if it's worth less, it might have to cut down the wages slightly too. Makes their salaries actually competitive!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that encourage clique behavior?... which is something we should definitely be discouraging.
Clique behavior is a part of the game, yeah? If you're not sold out for (or having the illusion of being sold out for) a Corp I feel like maybe you're doing it wrong. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment Quotient?
It is a part of the game, and one that won't change. That said, I don't think we need to be providing mechanical advantages as an additional incentive toward it.

I think bragging rights is more than enough of a reward.

Grey0 has covered my thoughts here pretty accurately. Thank you.

I'm terms of how fast this moves, it is intentionally a long haul. This is for long term plotting and planning. It isn't intended to provide hour by hour entertainment but rather to be a long term backdrop to ongoing roleplay.

In terms of the system presented here versus what was announced, I see no difference. None of my plans changed. I implemented the system exactly as I stated originally with the same intentions. We aren't all the way there. This is just phase 2. We still have a third phase which includes chatter integrations and some additional prizes, like maybe most profitable trade, or something.

As always these systems take time to implement and tweak. So be aware changes will probably happen.

In terms of admin alts using this system, I think I have addressed these issues. Folx need to trust the staff of the game aren't cheating and that if someone does cheat it will be identified and that person removed. No one on staff wants to 'win'. We aren't donating our time to run the game to get an advantage for our alts. I kinda feel like it's beating a dead horse to continue to point this out.

Thanks for all the feedback. Keep it coming.

How about if everybody gives it a quarter and sees how this actually works in practice before blowing the BGBB up with "whatifs" and "it seems like it isn't what was promised".
My response was directed toward BlazingCoconut and Veleth's posts, not current implementation, if that wasn't clear.

I have no feedback to add on the current market implementation at present.

However, much love to Slither, Johnny, and Mirage for all the recent changes.

If I have something to say about the chatter integration, should I put it here as feedback or in Ideas?
Good question. I think Ideas, since it doesn't exist yet, even though it's been discussed. Thanks!
I just want to say that I've seen the post-install cyber scripts a bunch lately and they are -great-. I am really surprised about how much they add to the RP experience of getting chrome.
Awesome Pavane! There are about a dozen left to be written. It would be sick if we could have them all covered. Most of them were player written/submitted.
I think -all- of them have been player written actually. I've made some editorial changes here and there but these, along with most drug experience scripts were player written. Props to all of those that took time.

This is the thread if anyone wants to contribute: https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/development-discussion/script-development/post-install-cyber-scripts-68/

(Edited by Slither at 12:22 pm on 12/10/2020)

(Edited by Johnny at 11:13 pm on 12/10/2020)

METRO SOMEWHERES

The bugs causing characters riding the metro and recycled puppets to be reflected as being 'somewhere' on the @who population footer have been resolved.[/i]

Once again, the staff working hard to crush any hope, happiness or joy out of Withmore.

Thanks a lot Johnny. Obviously there will never be a "...over the rainbow" in Withmore. Not even for metro riding characters and recycled puppets. ;)