Ambient Muggers and Murderers
Low-level dangers on the streets

You wouldn't be able to introduce something like that without the risk/reward (and simple threat required) meaning those NPCs would have equipment and weaponry that, someone that rightfully defends themselves against them, would have every right to take. And since they chose to attack, it wasn't the player targetting them. Though of course players could "happen" to repeatedly expose themselves to those risks, thus leading to farming.

Be the mugger you want to see in the world. Create the demand for bodyguards, bouncers, and other things. Make the interaction entertaining/compelling/interesting.

We try to impress on new players that their actions have consequences and if they're being killed it's probably because of something specific they did or said to someone specific. I'm not in favor of diluting that.

Inexperienced players who perm in a few days.

Experienced players who quickly and then dramatically outpace any immy who fight them.

In my experience there are very few of both at any given time.

The game is full of hostile NPCs in several areas already. I'm not proposing anything that doesn't exist already, they just don't spawn on the streets.

You could argue 'players should fill X' for every possible role, but no one is saying 'we can't have NPC dogs, players should aspire to be the dogs they want to see in the world'.

There's a lot of generic concepts better filled by NPCs than players, for a variety of reasons. There are already ambient gangers, Judges, pick-pockets, and various animals. I don't think this is an unimaginable stretch that would outmod players wanting to fill this role themselves.

I think all these arguments could apply to NPC gangers and make a stronger case, but I think it's obvious the player advantages and roleplay that NPC gangers generate.

Not all coded systems detract from RP, otherwise you could argue a MUSH is superior to a MOO. Coded systems very often create the need or desire for RP where otherwise none would exist.

This isn't a solution. It's a bandage.

The solution is for players of non-combat characters to come up with reasons to hire bodyguard PCs for their PC to help move stories along. Putting in a coded system of ambient muggings, a system that players will likely grow tired of or learn to avoid if possible, doesn't change that mindset. It also only creates on scenario in which to hire lowbie, immigrant bodyguards.

You need to treat the symptoms and not just push them down the road a bit.

I actually think, if anything, having this become more common would normalize it.

If someone occasionally is getting attacked just regardless of how nice and ally-laden they are, I think you could argue that would actually normalize antisocial PCs.

As it stands, they stand out in their singularity, so they're easy to call out and focus down. If that was normal to expect, I don't think they'd be viewed as exceptionally dangerous or violent.

The coded hostility that already exists, where it does, serves very distinct purpose. I get you're justifying the purpose this would hope to serve but I just don't think it'd have the desired effect and would have a more direct negative affect. Players wouldn't feel incentivized enough to hire low-level muscle because what they earn isn't decent enough, most of the time. They'll just do less stuff or do it when they have their muscle-friends around, they're not going to hire immies. It would just negatively impact those without the flash to hire muscle at all, or those without muscle-friends around, or those who can't defend themselves against even weak attackers, and after a while it'd continue to mean even fewer folks wanting to roll anything out of char-gen that couldn't handle the ambient attackers because they don't want the hassle.

That will probably never change as long as Sindome remains a social-oriented game.

I'm not suggesting this as panacea to that, only that it might help normalize that, but I am only vaguely speculating.

I am thinking mainly of giving new players more low-stakes combat interaction while they get used to focusing on primarily player-driven conflict.

Right now only the gangs provide that and there are limited opportunities for new players to get involved there.

Hiring them. Hire them to beat up other immigrants that maybe annoyed you. Hire them to walk you down the street. Hire them to mug someone for you. Hire them to scout something for you. Hire them to entertain you fighting each other in front of you. Hire them to be your punching bag. Hire them to do stupid shit.

There is an endless sea of reasons to hire people of all tiers. But you aren't answering that question or why a coded system is needed in place of players hiring players. You've just said 'my character has no reason to hire them.' Which is a part of the broader problem in this situation - people not coming up with reasons that are right there in front of them and instead wanting to rely on coded systems to create reasons for them.

If you want to change the culture you have to be an active part of the culture change, not just asking coded systems to be introduced.

I don't see how anyone would treat a haha random attak NPC like they would with PC who has an actual reason/way to interact with. It will only make people brush NPCs off more.

Eh... I could see this being a thing in markets? You've made a valid point about ambient NPC hostilities, so it wouldn't be groundbreaking new mechanics but an expansion thereof... But still. Balance is definitely a finer issue. Pretty easy to cheese, and make non-combat char's lives a living hell if they don't make the connections necessary to hire bodyguards. But I guess that's part of the point?

Sure would make folks dicking about -alone- in the markets more inherently risky, as opposed to just being about whether a player happens to wander by and try to dip you. I don't know if the 'chatter' system covers this, but it'd be logical for NPC's to 'gossip' that someone was seen buyin' expensive drek in market xyz, maybe trigger some local tough come harass ya but they don't usually attack and mostly talk shit if you have backup? Make noncombat fixers need bodyguards, and combat-focused chars diversify their portfolio to fill the elite tier of that role. Would also create a bridge between the two diametrically-opposed playstyles - that way if everyone wants their precious fixers around, they gotta invest in keeping them safe.

This could arguably be handled by a sort of neutral non-gang vigilante enforcer / local militia thing. Hire a bunch of immies to carry clubs and escort people? Maybe even lease a joint and have players run ops out of it like a civvy security company. Pay their dues to the local gangs, protection money-like, and profit off the extra. Would sure give combat-inclined immies something constructive to do beside murderhoboing then perming.

Ps: love the touch added by some NPC's telling you to fuck off if you ask them things.

Since there ARE already areas with auto-hostile NPCs in them, however, perhaps new activities can be added to those to encourage optional bodyguard-like activities?

Kinda totally separate topic.

People tend range from somewhat risk adverse to entirely risk adverse and it's only though repetitive loss or a good amount of time playing that that they tend to come to the conclusion that loot and money is just that- numbers and items, both easily replaced. Some people can never get over this, to the point that if you rough them up ICly (with reason) they disappear into cubes for days/weeks/months, vacation, or just straight up-quit. I think there is something to be said about part of that sting being taken away by losing to NPCs, but at the same time, these are experiences you could be taking away from players trying to experiment and try this very thing.

People, as mentioned above, are also probably not replaying and developing their characters to the extent that the nature of their IC reality demands. Namely, our characters (let's just assume mixers here, for the sake of simplicity) see violence, death, kidnapping, child violence, etc. on every street, alley and corner. Anyone living in this situation should be thinking: even in part, "Maybe I should be doing something to defend myself." Be that hiring bodyguards, big ugly cromag sidekicks, learning to defend themselves, making strong political and interpersonal relationships, etc. If you're -not- doing these things, then you absolutely are inviting in violence and murder upon yourself. and you (both the player and character) should be cognizant of that.

Finally: There's already an absolute glut of white-knighting and not nearly enough selfish survival instinct going on. I'm not sure if having toned-down murderhobo NPC's wandering around will do anything to help alleviate this. It can be legitimately hard at times to pull off crimes without getting dogpiled on as a lower UE character. So bodyguard and muscle chum prospects, market your skills, and to everyone else: it's just another example of senseless violence in Withmore, and you're running late to that topless cardgame to gamble your week's wages away as it is.

For as often as we get mass-shouts from staff that 'help sex' and 'help chastity' being good help files to read, there are rules against murder-hobo and...I don't know, 'mugger-hobo' too.

'Make out until someone gets angry' is as poor a gameplay / RP approach as 'mug / bokken everyone until something interesting happens', IMO. You don't get to say one is poor form but not the other. If you run around being a bokken baka all the time you don't get to whine about the repercussions.

People make allies and friendships and lovers in all kinds of ways every single day in all kinds of ways. Maybe they exchange flash, or services, or sex, or trust, or goodwill -- it can be simple or it can be nuanced. But when you beat down the medic or the decker or the tailor or the joy because they seem like an easy target and suddenly you're getting vatted, I don't think you get to just jump on some 'omg the culture' train. Please.

You don't know what you don't know, right?

Fair enough, I think I understand more clearly now what you're criticizing and it's not what I was getting at I think, I think what you're saying is fair.

Just a minor correction I'd make to your train of thought: In my experience, it's generally less of an issue of people not having conflict, and therefore going out to seek it it out. That certainly does happen, of course. I think that generally, it's a result of limited resources. Many combat-related jobs pay very little, or even, nothing at all, and it's entirely on the players to 'hustle up' that flash they need to live. Often this takes the form of mugging, robbery, occasionally vatting, etc.

As for unfathomable and extreme escalation, chances are that there is a lot more going on behind the scene and/or that it's one of the many FOIC situations. SD's very much like a big onion. You can get through 10 layers and think you're well connected and in the know, and in reality, not know just how far away from the core of things! :)

I'm not sure what can remedy that, or if it's even a thing that should be remedied. Perhaps being a non-combat mix character should come with the acceptance that death will be a normal occurrence.

Generally though, I think the "disappear" option is preferable for non-combat mix characters if you're faced with paying extortionate rates for a good bodyguard, or hiring an immy who'll get cut down immediately with no remorse - which is unfortunate.