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Carry back Grapple

Could we please have a 'carry person' option that allows you to move another player around if trusted or if they are sleeping, without looking like you're choking and dragging them off?

Should be made so it's easy for the carrier player to stop being carried (like stop escort).

This could be tied into 'lift' maybe? You can't lift a living player currently, but maybe change that and it checks trust?
Using lift is clever.
The messaging could also just be changed for a trusted grapple. Like instead of x drags in y by their throat it's x carries y.
I have always wanted an option like this though I'd prefer it to not just be changed messaging on grapple as lifting a thing requires more STR than dragging them as it is now. If the game shows me carrying someone I should also be able to also lift their corpse.

As a stop gap, I have been told by staff in the past that you can just pose a nicer grab and use @lp to show your kinder hold. The pose and @lp will make it clear to others that you are not strangle-dragging someone about. Just don't abuse it by saying you are carrying someone unless you are reasonably confident you could lift their corpse.

Corpse's heavier than living though, and there are some corpses that are too heavy to lift but there are also some corpses that you can lift with no problems.
What? I'm pretty sure if Bob is carrying Betty (barely) and she suddenly dies, she won't gain twenty pounds and suddenly be too much to carry. Sure, they MIGHT be easier to get off the ground on occasion but I can't possibly imagine that death adds mass out of nowhere.

And yes, corpses do weigh different amounts. This is because characters weigh different amounts. As far as I know, a character's weight is used to determine their corpses weight. So there is variation.

I think that it is important that if you can carry a person you must also be able to carry their corpse as this is one of the few ways a PC can show or and gauge each other's strength ICly.

@Grey0

"dead weight" is definitely a thing. It is much easier to lift a hundred pound person than it is to lift a hundred pound inanimate object.

As far as the game goes, it's much easier to drag someone than it is to lift them. I feel like the mechanical differences between grapple and lift do a good job of modeling that.

I agree that it's easier to get them off the ground while alive but that does not equal being heavier. And it's not really about inanimate or animate to me. It's having rigidity and structure versus being floppy and ungainly. While I have not lifted corpses, I have lifted unconscious individuals and floppy weights like loose sacks of grains.

As far as game play goes, I'm not interested in modeling that tiny difference. If the devs are interested in doing so (assuming they want to implement something like this at all), that's fine. What I personally don't want to see is any mechanic that lets you carry do so based on the grapple code as that would result in people carrying others they really should have no chance to carry based on stats.

I'm also pretty happy with how lift and grapple/drag are modeled in Sindome. Fully agree there.

The main reason is I've noticed before that if a PC tries to 'help' their friend by pulling or carrying them onto a lev or carrying them if they fell asleep, it can result in NPCs commenting on the person being cruelly grappled.

So if we could use a command to carry or lift, then it wouldn't trigger the idea of a crime or something socially inacceptable happening in a topside sector.

It would also help in those incidents where you see a player dragging someone else - you can't tell if they're just carrying them to a clinic or carrying them to a safe location because they fell asleep, or if it's a nefarious abduction and they are actually being dragged. You kind of have to assume the latter at the moment.

Apologies for the grammar issues, I need to stop writing while being distracted, also noticed the topic title doesn't make sense. It was meant to be 'Carry vs Grapple'. Wish we could get an 'edit post' feature to fix things up!
Actually had this same thought recently, I think it would really add to the RP as an option between @trusted characters! Provided of course there's a way to get out of it like a grapple.
I'm bumping this thread because I would like to see grapple separated into two different commands:

1. Hostile grapple/grapple for those untrusted.

2. Carry for trusted individuals, either through an @trust or through faction trust.

People no longer have to xhelp for certain kinds of crime topside. And this isn't only a topside thing where it's an issue, in my opinion. I don't think it's an overly large issue, but I do think it's a bit of a one. Grapple doesn't generate a hostile response from NPCs.

There's no automatic callouts when a grapple happens from NPCs who normally callout when they're under attack or respond to attacks. Grapples are not seen as naturally hostile even when someone is dragging a person by an NPC who would normally respond to hostile behavior. Grapples don't get the same kind of response as normal attacks do from NPCs or the ambient population as a whole.

And I believe this has led to and will continue to lead to people cheesing the system.

By readjusting/updating/modifying grapple to be seen as a hostile action and at the very least get a callout from NPCs who normally callout hostile behavior against themselves/against others, this means people or NPCs who are under attack by grapple alone will respond accordingly, ambient population will respond accordingly when staff aren't around to possibly throw a few responses out.

Implementing a carry system under @trust (or faction trusted behavior) will allow people to let others carry them when they're injured, unconscious, asleep, for other RP reasons, in a more natural way that also wouldn't require ambient response. It could be easily broken/ended by the carried party when wanted.

I think with the changes to the crime policy this would end up a positive change and I think overall it's just healthier for the game. I don't think it's productive to have a grapple only system where grapples can often end up a hostile action but don't receive the same type of response from NPCs/ambient population that other hostile acts do.

I agree. I think two possible solutions are:

1) Having the appropriate NPCs were outfitted with an appropriate cybernetic to limit cheesing? The expectation being for automagic @trust to do its thing.

2) Update the appropriate scripts to call out grappling.

Porque no los dos??

Did not respond at the time this was first brought up, but always wanted a @trust carry or trust grapple to allow a less hostile way of carrying people. This is incredibly important for WCS, EMTs and general less hostile roles that need to carry people about. It brings about false accusations a lot because it is so open to interpretation and from an observers point of view without a LOT of context, grappling someone could mean any one of the follow. The person being grappled is, needing medical attention, sleeping, being kidnapped, being carried by a partner, having fun, drunk as heck, needs resus, has no legs, etc. Some of these are hostile some are clearly not.

I never thought of the angle mentioned by Crashdown though with regards to grappling not being considered hostile by ambient pop or NPCs it turns the issue above into something WAY more serious, especially if a character just grapples someone from an unpopulated area to a populated one with clear hostile intent as a way to avoid any ambient pop alerts. (I have seen this done IC and would consider it a meta-light thing to do)

A @trust carry (carry can only be used when trusted and functions just like trust grapple only the descriptions are much more friendly), remove @trust grapple (grapple is always a hostile action) call outs for hostile grapples in a similar way to combat.

As for someone who is unconscious or dead, I guess you can carry or grapple can be used.

This also gives potential avenues of more interesting work, get someone drunk, get them to @trust carry them home everyone happy till you take a wrong turn Ace them and move on. (I know you can do this already with Grapple, but issues above already highlight the problem with this)

Anything that encourages moves away from the sneak-shroud-grapple-kill meta I think is a positive thing.

Grapple not being considered a hostile action for the purposes of NPC's alerting to things has been a problem in the past, but it seems like it's a much more prevalent problem of late.

I'm in total agreement with you Crashdown. If NPC's are codedly setup to where they call for help if you attack them, then they should also call for help the moment someone tackles them and tries to haul them off.

If the solution is to split it off into another verb, then that's one option. Another I could see is that it could be determined to be a hostile or non-hostile action based on how trusting of the PC the NPC is. So people who are well esteemed within their faction won't set off a panic for carrying their chum over their shoulder, but anyone else would.

NPC callouts are gamey and terrible and contribute to players treating their factions like an RTS rather than an RPG. If they have to exist at all, then situations where they don't happen are totally realistic since that's how players often fail to react as well.

Grapple is probably one of the more elegant and intuitive verbs, I think creating other verbs for niche purposes would make the game just harder to learn. Slightly different messaging while @trusted might be possible, though being able to just lift/carry unconscious characters makes sudden abductions way easier.

Without NPC callouts, it'd be even easier for a single player to just roll through an entire faction. Which is stupid.
Abusing grapple to pull individual NPCs away from a group, relying on them not responding or their allies not responding while codedly possible, is fully against the rules.

The reason that we don't have auto responses for this already that bring allies to your side when someone grapples is a bit complex. It's possible if the grappler stays in the same place but if they are moving we can't really dispatch NPCs easily. It would be somewhat complex and prone to issues. Not fully impossible though.

It's unfortunately something people cheese. A lot. I know we can x-help things but we can really only do it when we see it.
This feels like it would have to be a completely different thing from grapple anyway. 'Lift' for people. You could prevent people from doing it to sleeping individuals in the same way we do with preventing them getting robbed instantly.
I have seen the grapple be used plenty of times to cheese, especially when it comes to topside. I am all for risk however the fact that grapple isn't seen as an hostile action does make things complicated and somewhat unfair when it comes to other PCs responding to said situations. So while I understand the point about NPC callouts - perhaps at least for Mix situations - I do think realistically there should be an ambient response (without the GMs having to do it) if someone tackles someone and puts them in a hold or something on a 'secure' sector where law enforcement exists. And I agree with crashdown that differentiating this from 'friendly' carries could help.
This would also fix the oddity of chipped individuals not being allowed to save lives, potentially.
The ambiguity of the grapple action is one of its virtues. Much like in reality, what someone is doing when they take ahold of another person can be ambiguous and lead to misunderstandings or false reactions, or a hesitation to react. I think strictly defined hostile and non-hostile actions that spell their meaning out to players is again, gamey.

If anything grappling someone to drag them off quietly should only be the second choice because it was easier to kill them in situ. The popularity of grapple is because it's basically the only way available to players to kill targets without drawing in every Don Quixote in twenty blocks. If players cheat using it, that's on them, not the verb.

I actually enjoy the way a certain chip blocks you from 'aiding'. The fact that it sees all such actions as hostile is one of the consequences to having it. And the chip wouldn't tell the difference between who you do and don't trust anyway, I'd imagine.

As far as carry vs. drag, carrying is far less taxing on stamina/strength than dragging. I won't go into details, but it has to do with scalar product of force and displacement vectors. If you've ever been in some kind of medical emergency or training (military for example) you train in both of these. From personal experience, I can say it's much much easier to carry than drag. Even getting the person off the ground is easy if you know how to lift properly and use the victim's body to your advantage for the task.

Also, dead weight is heavier because the person being carried helps maintain their balance over your core as they attempt to keep themselves stable. An unconscious person goes limp and their weight distributed unevenly, and the burden of keeping them balanced is entirely on you.