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Just a pet peeve of mine, but a QoL would be a different color for stalling. White on grey is hard to read when you really need to react fast.
By Ociex at Apr 6, 2024 8:26 PM
I agree with this, most of the time when I stall, I don't actually notice it happened for quite a bit, and I only notice because I stopped moving. Nowadays we have the ability to have bright, flashing messages, and I think this would be an appropriate place for something like that.
By Emily at Apr 6, 2024 8:29 PM
There's special color and a warning for other things in AVs, a red emergency light flash and "WARNING, PULL UP, PULL UP," would be a nice touch for stalls, and maybe even an altitude reminder when you're flying near to the ground.
https://youtu.be/EWnhSCFCYto?si=XHFcEH97R3auwsRM
By batko at Apr 7, 2024 4:06 AM
Agree Batko! This would be great! Or even Red combat text for stalling. Just something that stands out from the wall of text when flying.
By Ociex at Apr 7, 2024 5:53 AM
In addition to this, I think it would be worth looking into how often vehicles stall. If it's a mechanical issue on the vehicle or some other extraordinary circumstance, fine. But as I understand it, a skilled driver/pilot in a brand new vehicle will still stall out surprisingly often.
I honestly think that, once a certain threshold is met, that characters should simply never stall their vehicles unless there is some kind of extenuating circumstance. I don't even think that the skill/stat requirement for this needs to be very high. Most average drivers and pilots don't regularly stall their vehicles.
By Grey0 at Apr 8, 2024 4:35 AM
I agree with this as well, stalling while you are very very good feels... Bad, however if it's once in a blue moon I don't really mind, keeps you on edge.
By Ociex at Apr 8, 2024 4:37 AM
If a character is stalling a flying vehicle often they're
not skilled.
Players just tend to vastly underestimate the requirements, or don't recognize the factors which make those skill checks harder to make.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 12:14 PM
The fact that even the best drivers or pilots in the game still stall and crash every once in a while doesn't really sit right with me. I feel like at a certain point, increasing driving or piloting skill should make it so crashes/stalls never happen, and instead leveling up after that should allow those people to go faster.
By Emily at Apr 8, 2024 12:20 PM
The
best pilots will never crash and will only see a stall per thousands of checks.
Keep in mind that skills and stats can go to A ranking, so there is a lot of spectrum on checks so progression continues to have an impact even if it's minuscule.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 1:24 PM
Getting back on track, stalling in aircraft is a lot more dangerous than in a car, so I think it's fair and thematic to have a stall warning system with colored alarms and such.
By batko at Apr 8, 2024 1:35 PM
It might be but, at least to a certain degree the intended design is for the whole system to be pretty difficult and sometimes unwieldy so that players fuck up and crash more often because it drives both character drama and other parts of the in-world economy.
Not to be Chaotic Evil about it but if anything I'm fairly sure vehicles are not crashing often enough anymore based on some tweaks that might've had unintended effects.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 1:59 PM
I really don't think it hurts to have the text show up as bright red, or something. It can be pretty easy to miss sometimes among all the GUI spam of flying.
By Leudo at Apr 8, 2024 2:00 PM
The feedback players see during a stall is experiential feedback about the world around your character like sensing the movement of the aircraft or feeling it drop, feedback which is always plain text (except in the case of red combat messages).
Whereas the colourful stylized messages aircraft display are in-world alerts from the flight instruments, which are disabled when a vehicle isn't running. I guess the phrasing is confusing because 'stall' could be confused for an aerodynamic stall but it's more like a spontaneous total systems failure where all the lights go out and nothing works.
There is one archetype and five or six in-game roles that basically rely on aircraft falling out of the sky semi-often, it's debatable if they even should exist now at the level of safety and ease that AVs operate with currently, but I certainly don't think making flying easier is the direction to move in to change that for the better.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 2:28 PM
This is a suggestion asking that the stall text be changed to red text. This is a quality of life change. This doesn't reduce the frequency at which people stall. This just makes it easier for people to not miss the message. I really don't see how this is a problem. It's something your character would very reasonably notice, the same as combat- and combat is coloured red.
By Leudo at Apr 8, 2024 2:31 PM
I am not against more crashes. I would prefer to not have them come from skilled drivers/pilots operating vehicles in good working order in normal circumstances.
Maybe make operating at higher speeds riskier then provide reasons to do so. Maybe have part condition and environmental conditions have greater impact. I'm just not a fan of a 1 in a thousand chance of a skilled driver stalling when everything's in order. It feels odd and gamey to me.
By Grey0 at Apr 8, 2024 2:33 PM
Maybe a separate thread should be made for these ideas, because this is getting off topic of what this suggestion is actually about.
By Leudo at Apr 8, 2024 2:35 PM
To get back on track, it's about having plain white text in the middle of gui spam that is grey. It's really hard to see. That is all, even if I'm say paying 100% attention, which usually do, it's extremely hard to see. That is all, also Grey0 all of that is already accounted for. There are multitudes of check in order which I will not go into, but they are there.
All I wish for is a color change of text, that is all. QoL.
By Ociex at Apr 8, 2024 2:55 PM
Sorry for double post.
But to reply to 0x1, you are saying a modern craft in 2109 don't have a separate backup light which modern and even heck before 2000 had, in case of a emergency failure of the craft? The AV isn't getting hit by a EMP, it's just stalling. Maybe for game balance, but I disagree with the logic.
By Ociex at Apr 8, 2024 2:57 PM
It's not really a question of realism, rather is it desirable to make it easier for players to avoid bad outcomes in game mechanics, if more of those bad outcomes are desired.
I do know that there is pretty more aircraft flying in the game than at almost any stage in the game's history and the popularity of piloting has exploded, but that the necessity or demand for support archetypes like aircraft mechanics has remained almost completely flat in comparison because the total amount of damage incurred by all vehicles could basically be easily managed by a single mechanic, which seems way off balance given the number of these roles spread across the different businesses and factions.
If I was personally trying to sell Johnny on more in-game colourful aircraft alerts as QoL for pilots, I'd be probably phrasing it in terms of making the actual checks like 200% more difficult at the same time and making crashes 200% more damaging in the bargain.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 3:36 PM
They already stall at high level, if they stalled more nobody would be flying. There would be no reason to fly other than to fight against text. You don't need to crash and burn to check in with a mechanic and have RP. If everything becomes deathly punishing it will drive away, balance.
Now an admin/dev can just say no we won't change it, alright, it was just an idea but to try and double or nothing for just changing a line of text to be readable is a bit of a stretch
By Ociex at Apr 8, 2024 3:43 PM
I'm sorry, but saying that stalls need to be made more frequent and crashes more damaging in exchange for just... colouring some text? I really can't wrap my head around your logic here whatsoever. I might as well just make a trigger in mushclient that highlights the text for me. This really isn't something that upsets the balance of piloting whatsoever. It's not even a mechanical change.
By Leudo at Apr 8, 2024 3:51 PM
I don't think making stalls actually visible to the pilot will put anyone out of a job IC. It's fairly common even with very high stats and decent skill, in my experience. I don't think stalls need tl be removed or reduced, but it's fair that with how much more dangerous AVs are in a stall, they should have more visibility.
Worst case scenario for a stalled car is going 'damn it' and losing maybe two seconds of time in the tubes. Worst case scenario for a stalled AV is probably death and a boatload of repair costs. It's not the same and I think it's warranted to have a better warning, but I've already said that a few times.
I think better visibility for things is always a good thing. I remember having to beg to have directed poses and speech be bright white instead of gray because large scenes were basically a sea of gray sand that you had to sift through and look for anything with meaning to your character.
By batko at Apr 8, 2024 3:56 PM
This is akin to characters running around with ceramic katanas and gold skillsofts wondering why their swords keep breaking. Read between the lines:
Your skills are too low for the vehicles you're trying to fly.Like I understand it would be very confusing to constantly deal with a blink and you'll miss it quick-time-event that is smashing your ride up but the intention is you don't constantly deal with it and that instead you raise your skills to match the demands of extremely high end equipment so that it stops being a problem, and that when it does happen, the outcomes are typically mild and help other parts of the game flourish.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 4:09 PM
Curved skills frequently stall on the lowest end vehicles in the game, though. It's not about flying a jet fighter with a skillsoft.
By batko at Apr 8, 2024 4:13 PM
Okay. Except even highly skilled pilots will still occasionally stall. This does not mean it is not useful to have the text highlighted. By your logic, we should have all combat grey. If you miss it, you're just not paying enough attention. Your fault. This is just a quality of life change that makes perfect sense. This does not give anyone a 'special advantage' or make piloting easier. Someone who doesn't raise their skill is still going to stall just as much as if this change is implemented. This is something that can be actively achieved already with a number of clients by just making a trigger. Nobody is asking for piloting to be made 'easier'. If anything, this just brings the web client in line with other clients.
By Leudo at Apr 8, 2024 4:15 PM
0x1mm, I get the feeling you misunderstand how vehicles in this game actually work. You said earlier that the best pilots will never crash, and now saying if you're stalling or crashing, that your skills are too low. This just isn't true at all. No matter how high your skills and stats are, there is always a chance for you to stall and crash. I've seen this happen multiple times first hand. The chance might be very low, but there's always a chance, and those rolls happen tons of times. Increasing skills or stats won't fix the problem that's trying to be addressed here at all, which is getting the player's attention when a stall happens so they can react to it.
By Emily at Apr 8, 2024 4:18 PM
I have very high skill, very very high even. Not immy 'I think I am good skill' but high, guess what? I still stall, not often but I do. It's still there.They actually made vehicles especially AV's much harder to fly about little over a year ago.
By Ociex at Apr 8, 2024 4:22 PM
All I can say is the expectations players have here about the relative advancement of their skills and stats along the spectrum of piloting is not even close to realistic, based on my experience.
If players are making stat and skill comparisons to driving as a difficulty comparison they're way off base, compare it to the demands of end game weapon skills for the most advanced vehicles and you're going to be better off.
There was certainly a desire by me to popularize piloting but if players were honestly expecting to drop 100UE and fly everything in the game worry-free they were in for trouble.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 4:27 PM
There's no such thing as flying or driving worry-free in Sindome. It doesn't exist. There is always a chance you will stall or crash, no matter how high your level is.
By Emily at Apr 8, 2024 4:29 PM
Anyway discussion over whether players should be just living with stalls or not aside, the debate about messaging has come up a few times in the past and there's an open issue about it from last year on Kaiju (@vb 120) that's flagged for Johnny's attention so you can trust he'll eventually have eyes on it to one outcome or another.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 4:51 PM
Though just to cover my ass here if that language isn't figurative: If a character
actually has 'very very good' piloting skills (ie.
A rank, see
help skills) and is still experiencing frequent issues with stalling, then what I'm saying above about needing more skill should not apply at all and that would be highly unexpected and would suggest to me a bug in a vehicle configuration or in the vehicle hulk (or possibly an unfortunate failure to invest in a relevant stat).
There were weird parts combinations that caused unexpected effects sometimes so I would suggest troubleshooting in that case, because going into the elite range of C+ skills and stats you should practically need statistical analysis to notice stall rates.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 7:05 PM
As I said before it dosn't happen often at all, rarely. I still get text blind by looking at rows and rows of grey text with white in it, then a white message about stalling in the middle of white room desc, it's blinding in a way I literally can't see it. And once you start dropping you drop fast, and it's not just a crash, AV can and will kill you if you aren't fast enough.
To cover my ass, I have nothing against vehicles crashing and getting damage. . AV's are incredibly expensive both in fuel, time to learn to fly, and the AV itself and damage that can be done to them. So when death is involved I would like a little more heads-up, that's all.
By Ociex at Apr 8, 2024 7:11 PM
I mean an accessibility issue is an accessibility issue, by all means present it that way.
But all this stuff with the dangers of flight and the expense and the risk and the razor's edge at the edge of death is just over the top and gilding the lily. It's not a big deal to crash, it doesn't happen that quickly or in a blink (it would be dozens of lines of feedback to create a severe crash, not one), it's not very damaging to the vehicle or the characters, it's not very expensive to repair. As far as I'm aware since the rework a vehicle has only been truly totalled to the maximum extent once (something that I'm pretty sure is impossible to do in a crash) and it cost like 5-10% of it's total value to return to mint condition. If anyone has flat out fully died in a crash in the last few years they pretty much had to be in a vehicle missing critical parts, they're incredibly durable and protective now.
By 0x1mm at Apr 8, 2024 8:06 PM
Make the text red because pilots are literally FALLING OUT OF THE SKY and they will notice this as easily as they notice being punched in the face. This has nothing to do with skill or all the other mechanics and stats-related topics you’re discussing on this board 0x1.
This is a basic accessibility problem and it plays into your continual opposition to any QoL or accessibility-related improvement.
When a vehicle overheats, the occupants see a bold bright yellow warning that pops up every time the car moves. Why shouldn’t we have a similar warning for stalled aeros? And if you’re sacrificing accessibility on the altar of “realism”, don’t actual IRL planes have very loud and noticeable warnings the moment the altitude starts dropping or an engine cuts off?
By svetlana at Apr 9, 2024 9:52 AM
I don't have any issue with changes to the messaging, I brought it up myself
several times. The whole vehicle system got reworked and alerts added and it's not like anyone forgot stalls exist, you'll have to parse between the lines there. I'm restating basically why it is why it is, and only was responding to players claiming that they shouldn't be
stalling at all and pointing out them failing skill checks is perhaps an indicator they're not quite as super pro as they think they are.
What you imagine as being anti-QoL are often deliberate design choices to make players fail and have outcomes they don't want.
By 0x1mm at Apr 9, 2024 10:01 AM
Okay, right. Sure. So 0x1 also agrees text can be red, awesome. We are all on the same page.
By Ociex at Apr 9, 2024 10:04 AM
“If I was personally trying to sell Johnny on more in-game colourful aircraft alerts as QoL for pilots, I'd be probably phrasing it in terms of making the actual checks like 200% more difficult at the same time and making crashes 200% more damaging in the bargain.”
We just don’t want falling out of the sky to be lost in the scroll. This isn’t about skill checks or “git gud” or whatever. It’s the fact that it’s insane to expect humans to be able to parse a white text warning against a white or grey background as easily as they can parse a yellow or red text warning. There’s no IC stats or RP that can help a player pick out urgent text warnings that blend in with the other scroll. This is purely a human-focused, completely OOC accessibility change.
By svetlana at Apr 9, 2024 10:11 AM
It doesn't and it isn't, and players suggesting otherwise are wrong. A serious fall that anyone would actually be worried about would involve tens of lines of scroll, and it doesn't flash past in an instant -- it takes a while. There's a lot of exaggeration going on, players talking about instant crashes they can't react to and characters dying from them and it's an invention muddying the waters.
If players want to take the stance that it's like, ableism to have standard feedback then fine but spouting fantasies about mechanics to shore up the arguments is not aiding that. I've taught the flight system to more players than anyone else, and spent months troubleshooting every vehicle and part in them, and have had more discussions with the Johnny and Slither and Mirage about vehicle issues and design decisions than anyone. So you can get sarcastic and patronizing about what I'm saying like I'm oppressing you and keeping you being the super elite pilots of your dreams, or you can understand what I'm telling you is how to convince the person who actually matters.
In my pretty well-informed opinion framing it as 'crashes are bad and make me sad, want less' is probably going to get you a year or two of silence and then a note saying 'working as intended'.
By 0x1mm at Apr 9, 2024 10:19 AM
I don't have every copy of all the various prior discussions on the topic of players having preferential messaging colouring/highlighting, or coloured/custom notifications, but these threads will probably give you some idea of the discourse:
Idea: IC command to change SIC output color?
Complaint: Rules Clarifications
Idea: Color Your Thoughts
Idea: Colors in descriptions
By 0x1mm at Apr 9, 2024 10:46 AM
Thanks for the suggestion and the feedback everyone.
We'll review and implement if needed.
You Rock!
:)
By Mench at Apr 9, 2024 10:47 AM
