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Free bar entry for newbie_protection

A small addition that while you are under newbie_protection you do not pay bar entry fees. Help the new guys find RP without breaking bank. This could come with ooc information that you are given a free pass because of newbie protection and not echo to the room to not give it away.
+1
+1
+1
+1
I'm torn on this. On the one hand, yes, I'd like to see newbies able to get into bars to find the RP and such.

On the other hand, I think it may set a bad precedent for new players.

Sounds like a pretty reasonable idea, I like it.
Yep, I like it.
-1

Doesn't really make logical since for a bouncer to just let somebody come on in because they're new.

We're talking about the equivalent of literal cents.

Crates pay thousands of chyen a day, and there are numerous guides, both IC and in help files directing people to them.

-1

-1

I agree with Stiza and TalonCzar.

Except that after walking the gate and getting clothes you barely have 1 entry bar fee. And that player is much harder to get any RP.
Do you think actual new players will know that though? They're going to look for people to connect with first.
-1 Because capitalism, sorry.
RP doesn't happen exclusively in bars.

Bars are often times owned by players who actually utilize the cover charge income to pay employees.

New players are already handled with so many layers of kid gloves that it's borderline un-thematic as-is to deal with them.

I just don't see the demand there for more people to sit in bars doing nothing. If they can't afford cover charge, they can't buy drinks, and being new, they're likely to even miss out on the majority of the things happening around them. I just don't get it.

I'm on board with this. Especially because truly new players who are still figuring everything out and can't go work anywhere to make any money because they might not even know they have to write a history or how to do it and may not be lucky to catch an Immy Greeter could really benefit from wandering around and stumbling into a bar somewhere and catching a PC or a group of them and someone maybe being nice to the hopeless baka and helping them a little, IC'ly or with some non-FOIC breaking OOC nudging (like helping to direct them to help newbie, etc.)

It's a small thing but raises the chances of them actually interacting with PCs who might give them that first addictive hit of actual RP instead of sitting in a coffin waiting for a history to get approved because they have no cash. Yeah, they could get on pubSIC, maybe chat someone up and meet up anyway, but it just....eases things, a tiny bit.

Really don't think it'd have a big impact, but even a slight one? With what real downsides?

To expound on my accidental +3, I literally avoided all bars with cover charges as an immy and found myself frustrated OOCly.
I think this would be a good option to offer to bar owners.

If they want their place to become known as the sort of establishment where the dregs of the immigrant tide wash ashore, excellent. Let them foster that kind of RP.

If they want to maintain a more exclusive vibe and limit their clientel to those who are established enough to pay a cover charge, let them do that.

Hek,

They already have this option. It's called not having a cover charge.

And while this really doesn't cost us anything, don't you think that the first time they throw a punch or have been in the city for long enough, that they're not going to get pissed off that suddenly their favorite watering hole now charges them.. totally out of the blue? For seemingly no reason?

Being a new immy I don't think I should have exclisive all access pass to bars and shit. I absolutely would have missed most of the things going on. Most of my RP has started outside of bars(probably 75%) and it led to me learning things, and by the time I was going into the bars, I was missing FAR less. However, that being said, one of my RPs was someone reaching out to me in SIC inviting me to a bar, knowing I was a new immy. So I like Hek's idea too. It shouldn't be an all exclusive get into bars thing though. That's my one week in the game opinion.
-1.

Maybe take the 10c or whatever fee off of the bars that previously never had them?

I see this as unfair to player owned bars.

I disagree with this. Cover charges aren't too expensive.
@Talon,

That is a good point about the sudden shift after immy protection vanishes.

Maybe it would be possible to code an immy exclusive response from the bouncer. "I see that you're new. I'll let you in free, for now." or something.

I'm not super behind this idea. I don't think that cover charges are a real barrier, especially given the amount of chy that can be earned from crates in a day.

I just threw my idea out here as a compromise position between the two opposing view points. I'm not a bar owner and have zero skin in this game.

+1

Love this idea, they can get an OOC notification that the fee is being OOCly waved so as to avoid giving the wrong idea. Guest characters already get this, so there's precedent, and it's not like PC bar owners are not already the wealthiest PCs in the game, I'm sure they'll manage. Known plenty of new players that have, no pun intended, bounced after not finding RP at CD.

Well why stop there? How about free drinks? Business owners can afford it after all.
While Grizzly is certainly being untactful about it, that's the bad precedent I was talking about. If you're going to give someone with newbie protection free access to cover charge gated bars, why not free access to levs too? I think a play-tip with some suggestions after the first attempt at entry would be more than sufficient.
How is that "untactful"? I'm just illustrating a point here. It is not really fair nor does it make much practical sense.
I agree with your point Grizzly, but the 'Business owners can afford it after all.' is certainly a sarcastic dig.
Look, I'm not going to argue about being too gentle with language for sensitive viewers.

I am saying they can afford it. It's not fair to force them to do so against their will because new immigrant.

There's a ton of arbitrary restrictions and allowances made for the sake of fun gameplay -- including immies being partly invincible when they start. Let the system pay for their 10c fee on a one-hour cool-down if we're so worried about the top 0.1% of players being deprived of income.
Gear and clones and food and housing should be free to all players.
Frankly the new-player experience is kind of terrible. Not in terms of the first few days of players trying to survive in a harsh environment, but the first few hours if terms of showcasing why SD is worth all the investment they're going to have to make setting things up and learning all the (often byzantine) systems. Giving more avenues to showcase the role-play that makes this misery heap actually worth people's time is probably something that would be beneficial.

Nothing says it has to be like two weeks -- one or two days while people get set up with a history and learn how to run crates would probably do it.

Gear and clones and food and housing should be free to all players.

While you were busy punching down Vera, you've forgotten all of those things are provided to new players through various mechanisms. Honestly to hear some people in this thread talk you'd think they nanowove their own WAI suits after stepping through the Gate, and were captains of industry by the end of the week. It's not a zero sum game, someone else getting something doesn't mean less for you.

Barsitting with a gaggle of lesbians hunting for a fourth is not really what I think of as the ideal introductory experience.
If you've not owned a business that relies on sales and door cover to pay employees then you aren't going to understand what us captains of industry had to work with. It does take away unless the business is 1:1 compensated (the door still collects this magic fee this benevolent bouncer pays for out of their own pocket)
+1

If the player doesn't have an accepted history yet, they can't run crates yet, if they can't run crates, they can only rely on player income to get money to go to a bar. Guess where most players meet up? Maybe not for every bar, but at least The Drome, Carnal's, that sort of stuff. Yes, maybe it's a bit unthemely, but it's basically no money anyways, and it is for the reason of promoting RP, which is why we're all playing this game.

I will make myself a little more clear:

Barsitting is kind of the weakest RP in the game and the habit some players have of dangling free food, booze, and cybersex for new players sets up expectations that probably hurt retention in the long run.

New players should get into the mindset that they are poor and desperate. The kid gloves thing is necessary to a point but come on.

I think getting propositioned to be the fourth lesbian is as harsh an introduction as it gets Vera.
Look. I'm going to toss out an anecdote, and I also want to toss out some numbers here, to try and illustrate my point.

My character was/is probably one of the biggest hustlers you'll meet in central. In the past year, they've moved quite literally, tens of millions of chyen through the mix, and through the dome as a whole. They are literally that 0.01%er you're talking about. During that entire time, my character has nearly been permed on several occasions. Why, is it because they're sitting on chy mountain and those evil solos are chasing them on the long walk? No, absolutely not. It's because chy that doesn't move is bad for the game. Every 100K stack gained, was 100K put back into the economy putting people to work.

I've also been privy to the tenders of some of the most well known businesses in the mix. Yes, they have -at a glance- a large sum of money in them. Until you get to knowing the deeper elements of things and realize that that 'staggering sum of chyen' is either tied up for various reasons, or is only going to cover one or two deaths of someone who's been in the game a long time. I won't say conclusively, but I'd like to say that generally, the people who are incredibly wealthy gods of industry are often putting that flash to use and keeping it moving. But enough about that. Anecdotes are just anecdotes.

On to the promised numbers.

One bar gets 20 visitors a day at a 50c entry fee. That's 7K income at the end of the week. You know what that is? Two full time paid jobs for -said penniless immigrants- at that exact same bar we've decided to sling shit at for having a cover charge. That's roleplaying money for those employees.

Now what is 50c to a day one immigrant? That's, conservatively, about 1/20th of their daily income from doing nothing but spending 40 minutes running crates. Is it going to break their back to enter that bar? No, don't be absurd.

Let's say that immigrant makes some friends their first day, and is given a very common running gig. Now we're down to 1/40th or 1/60th of their income for that day. We're hitting pretty damn small numbers now. Suppose a friendly gang wants to put that immigrant to work? Good GOD we're at 1/180th of their income for the week. Injustice! Humanity! Think of the immies!

My point is, that this argument is dumb. And this idea honestly, is silly. You want to get into a bar to go meet people? Pay a cover charge or find a free bar. It's literally what broke-ass college students do, and they eat worse than your average mixer does.

At most you'd get a handful of players a month exposed to one or two new settings they wouldn't otherwise, and perhaps exposed to groups of people that they might otherwise not. Seems like quite a harmless little perk to me.

As first-hand testimony Vera, I did live and mostly RP on the streets when I started playing Sindome, and saw almost no RP there, and it wasn't until I was basically dragged into a social venue that things blossomed, so I don't think bars are anything like as harmful an atmosphere to player retention as you're suggesting.

-1

Can't agree on this one. In fact, when my character was an immy and laughably broke, I used this for RP generation in getting other characters to pay the cover charge. There are other places to RP other than bars and basic communication with strangers can get you into places one way or another.

@TalonCzar

I can assure you knowing exactly what the costs and expenses are, and what the elite players you're so ardently defending work at and spend and invest, this is like a drop in the ocean. Have the system pay for it if it's such a big scary threat to the ultra-rich and would somehow undermine your hustle. I don't get why people are so ideological about what could be a fun little perk for a day old-immy to help them get out more.

+1 I'd say this is where mechanics trump RP. From a game design perspective the tutorial is extremely important and if we want to draw in new players we want to give them as many opportunities to RP as we can. Bars have the highest concentration of players and business so we should want to draw them into places like this. If you've played DnD, why does the quest always seem to start in a tavern?
I also agree with Vera.

knowing the people that frequent bars, I don't think barRP is a great introduction to what sindome is supposed to be

I don't think some players realize how fragile initial retention is, and they have to remember that they, by virtue of sticking around, are the vanishingly small minority of the total players who come the Gate.

It's in everyone's interest to encourage new players to stick around, and if you think it's easy for literally brand-new players coming through the Gate for the first time, I'd suggest becoming an Immigration Aide for a few months and seeing 99% of people leave because there's so much initially to learn. In my opinion any measures that can open players up to seeing some of the positive reasons to stick around are worth considering.

This game is not for everyone.
While I definitely agree that player retention is a problem, I don't necessarily think this avenue is big enough to help it. It's true that Sindome's learning curve is laughably rough and the theme definitely isn't for everyone. At the same time, I think there's a lot allowances made for new players to begin with and I don't think removing the cover charges are doing them a whole lot of favors, especially once those two weeks are up.

That said, I think a *reduced* cover may be helpful, especially while histories are being written and approved. Reducing the cover to something ridiculously small like 5-10c would still make the theme apparent ("nothing here is free") without costing the immigrant too much until they're running crates. After two weeks of that, then they should be able to handle almost any cover charge they want without discouraging RP.

When I was a new player, I don't remember being surprised or offended by the cover charges. Sure, there were some bars I didn't go to often at first because of the cover charge, but that just felt very thematic to me. My character was broke, so they should go to dives and I think the bars, especially on Red, are varied enough to cover a wide range of wallets.

Ranger you can always camp outside the Gate to kidnap and torture women so that they're getting an introduction more in line with your preferences, but bar role-play has, and will remain short of a massive demographic shift, the largest venue of player interaction in the game.

If nothing else, ideological opposition to social role-play by combat-oriented players is short-sighted -- who else would there be to victimize otherwise? SD works like it does because it draws from multiple sources of player types, and creates a more dynamic and authentic and realistic social atmosphere as a result.

what the fuck dude
don't know how plot-driven kidnapping RP plays into anything here but you should know that I prefer not to go through the bother of kidnapping anymore since even your average WCS worker can say they've mentally prepared themselves for 'being kidnapped' and ignore the rp and nosell anyway while RPing as the joker and going "haha just kill ME"

it doesn't change the fact that 75% of the time bar RP is lesbian harems looking for a fourth

I am interested in where the 99% number comes from. Unless you have access to exact numbers I can't really accept that argument. I think plenty is done in terms of player retention, especially considering that 5 years ago 15 players on was a good deal of people. Not everyone is going to stick around. You can't beg them too either. If they quit because there is a lot to learn, well that is their preference and has nothing to do with anything but their unwillingness to sit down and dig into the game.

Also; another tidbit from the elite tax dodging 1% business owner standpoint.

Player owned bars, for example, have to fund their business and staff entirely out of pocket. Those cool perks you bartenders and such make working at your npc run business? Yeah, players who run a business cannot offer that. When I took over a business from an NPC, it was not only life savings involved, but heavy loans from other investors. Now you are shouldering making a business successful, and paying back other people their returns.

Having to fire EVERYONE then interview them for their jobs back at half their salary and zero perks was a morale punch in the dick for them. But, that's business. Eventually they all went to other establishments that could pay them more, which was a hit to the RP that was generated at that business.

Having a business is not really a free Chyen train unless you fire everyone except the provided NPC and never do anything there which is counterproductive to the entire game . This is why I feel so strongly about why this idea makes zero sense to me and why they should just remove the pre-cerb cover charge on npc owned bars that didn't exist until last year. That would essentially settle that entire argument.

Bar RP I see involves making connections, conducting business, catching up on the local talk, asking for runners, etc... And yes, people do pick up other people at bars. Who would have guessed that places with alcohol, socializing, and an often risque atmosphere involve flirtation.
Oh good its that time when I as an admin get to tell a group of people that I'm disappointed that they can't have a civil conversation about possible game ideas.

Remember that discussing things that happened IC is against the rules and despite how much you've let an idea upset you into personal bleed there is no excuse to break that rule.

This thread has reached its limit, stop posting here.

I think the free housing and non violence waiver is more than enough for new players.
https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/open-discussion/anything-really/acting-like-a-big-kid.-1065/
Of course. There was no reason to bring IC actions into it, and I apologize.
Gonna have to tl;dr all the mud slinging in this thread and answer to the original idea.

I don't think this should be implemented. The entry fee to bars is small, and a lot of bars already have free entry as a business strategy. The small amount of money might not be small for the first day person, but that will drive them to seek out jobs. Seek out ACME or SHI or whatever and get them into the vibe of earning what you want through action.

I like the spirit of it, helping new folks. I think a lot more of this can be done by players heading to the gates when they see the notification that a new person has arrived and immediately engage them in some RP. This RP can involve taking them to a bar and paying their way in.

I think 01x1mm's suggestion that it's limited only until, say, a new character's @history is approved (so they can run a crate at least) is simply the fix to almost every complaint. They'll have a free pass for like a day or two, captains of industry will continue to keep the world moving and we'll all still be grateful to them, don't sweat it.

Vera you're mistaken sorry. and the lesbian harem trope is so gd tired I can't see straight, I know the circle of edgelordy murder RP what other RP folks love to use it while disparaging anyone who doesn't play the game the way they do but maybe don't. especially as a jumping off point for making contacts, observing contacts, scraping a surprising amount of free paydata, making friends for life, making friends for life until you end their life for the right price, and so many other reasons, barsitting RP' is vital not only for trying to pull in new players but vital in general.

I was being unfairly dismissive of PC lease holders, though they can be very wealthy or very high salaried characters, they are not necessarily so, and certain leases have definitely at times seemed like holes in the ground where one pours chyen for the status of having them, so making them more financially burdensome is definitely not something I want to advocate for -- especially having some idea of the work involved in making it all gel. Hopefully anything that benefits one player does not have to come at the expense of another.
Repeating myself in caps in hopes people read this time:

THIS THREAF HAS REACHED ITS LIMIT. STOP POSTING HERE.