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Heavy Weapons
Do they have a place in Sindome's future?

At the moment the Heavy Weapons skill exists in a kind of limbo I would like to see come to an end one way or another. There are no tools accessible in game to make this skill useful and yet players can still access it and dump UE into the skill if they aren't aware of the current state of the skill (I personally was caught out with this when I first made my character XD ).

This thread exists to discuss whether the Heavy Weapon skill has a place in Sindome's future and if so, how it could be re-introduced to the game in a balanced and achievable manner. Naturally my preferred outcome is that a viable solution for the implementation of Heavy Weapons is found and followed through on but failing this I believe the skill should be pulled from the available roster of skills to; a) remove false hope for existing players and, b) avoid disappointment for new players who invest in the skill only to find it is useless with no known plans in the works to change this.

Thank you for your time. Please be excellent to one another.

I think heavy weapons would be great for combat vs vehicles, but I think that's a whole can of worms in and of itself.
I love the potential of this skill as heavy weapons are a variety of possible weapons from Light machine guns to rocket launchers and it doesn’t HAVE to be man versus car to employ them with effectiveness if you understand them, but man versus car or car versus car even are where they would really shine.

The problem is, in my opinion, an unclear understanding of how they should be implemented in Sindome, a backlog of things to do prior to vehicle combat/damage, and the massive workload in of itself to introduce something other then what is in the game but on the shelf. Some have even suggested that admin have talked about integrating heavy weapons into other skills.

I am in favor of do something with it or remove it. Heavy weapons have a lot of potential, but let’s be honest the skill is a ue trap of false hope if there are no plans to ever do anything with it.

Adding a heavy weapon to each of the existing weapon skills is an interesting idea and would solve concerns about Heavy Weapons becoming the "ultimate weapon". Pistols might get a compact grenade launcher, smgs an lmg and rifles a RPG/railgun, heck melee could even have an adapted jackhammer if that weren't too difficult to bring in line with the other heavy weapons. It bears thinking about as an alternative to adding tools for an entirely new skill.

The following are ideas as to how Heavy Weapons could be made functional in Sindome without being game breaking. They are by no means perfect ideas and I would love to hear alternative ideas or constructive criticism.

Potential applications for the heavy weapons:

Area denial attacks: Weapons like light machine guns and rocket launchers all have the potential to be used as area denial tools via either blast from the projectile or firing so many projectiles that being in the targeted area is dangerous. Damage could be scaled down to reflect how powerful the potential to hit multiple people simultaneously could be and/or players in the affected area could roll to dodge damage entirely.

Vehicular damage/warfare: This one speaks for itself. Heavy Weapons could give players the potential to engage vehicles in vehicle-to-vehicle, emplacement-to-vehicle or person-to-vehicle combat depending on how the weapons are implemented. This would be a time intensive option as it would first require an overhaul of vehicles but a byproduct of this overhaul would be significantly more rp for mechanics, something that has been referenced as desirable in other idea threads.

Balancing factors

High Costs: If you want powerful tools you need to pay appropriately. Making these weapons expensive would prevent them getting into the hands of Joe Everyman and force Billy the Brute to evaluate risk vs reward before taking these weapons for a spin.

Highly Illegal: Another risk vs reward factor. Weapons like this are the sort of thing the WJF might not even want to see in corporate hands, making them something rarely seen outside of the WJF themselves and corporate Black-Ops teams.

High Strength Requirements: Another investment balancing factor. Heavy Weapons would be, as their name suggests, Heavy and unwieldy and therefore require investment in strength, again preventing Joe Everyman from wielding these with impunity.

Require mounting or deploying: Again, being heavy might mean these weapons need to be fixed to either a vehicle or some form of deployable mount (like a bipod). If the weapons needed fixing to vehicles that would further restrict the application of these weapons to spaces that vehicles can access and the adjoining areas (that they could shoot into from the street). It also escalates the risk vs reward aspect of the weapons use as now you are putting your vehicle at risk when you use these weapons.

Again, these are just ideas. I look forwards to hearing your thoughts and ideas. Perhaps you think we should just pull the skill and be done with it?

Terrain denial is a good point to bring up, and paired with barricades it could really be a game changer in how highly complex assaults are conducted on Sindome.

I think even just something like a belt fed 5.56 could do well in the hands of a user in regular combat as a great support roll though it would require a balance that sounds illogical to their nature. Perhaps it hits hard but slow, or vice versa.

I think the vehicle portion is probably not in the foreseeable future, but it would be fun to have functional APC’s, as well as armed AV’s and mixer technicals (A turret mount on your koi effectively making you unable to ever take it topside?)

Having a strength requirement would also be a good balancing factor and it would give beefy brawlers a highly kinetic secondary combat skill to employ, which is always good.

If it were integrated to other skills, it would be interesting too. There actually is a grenade launcher option for a certain firearm, but I don’t believe it has ever been functional.

Some interlocking ideas for this; Create “borg guns”.

A 14mm pistol/.666 revolver that requires strength on top of pistol stat governors AND a cybernetic arm to properly use!(we have em)

Also the equivalent for the other firearm classes.

Cybernetic Limb requirements could also be a balancing factor for heavy heavy weapons ( the minigun of 2104 might weigh as much as a koi or something)

Heavy weapons are very rarely useful in close quarters situations. I believe instituting HEAVY penalties for engaging in the same room would be one key mechanic of them.

I like the idea of area denial. Removing the ability to target individual characters would be another good factor to look at, instead heavy weapons may only be targeted at a room or vehicle in a room. If targeted at the room, each hit to the room deals it's damage to every character in said room, not just who you want to hit.

Requiring deployment. This is a fantastic idea. In order to use a machine gun, perhaps you have to drop it and then 'deploy it' before you can use it effectively, though I believe shoulder firing should still be an option, albeit with severe penalties.

But, that's just my two chy. I have a lot of thoughts about the combat skills that also run counter to heavy weapons even being a thing to begin with.

You can use smaller “heavy weapons” (As I would classify an m249 in this category for the sake of Sindome) for close combat. A saw gunner is very much in doctrine for room clearing. Just wanted to clarify
Grizzly,

I am aware, but let's look at this from an effectiveness standpoint. An m4 is smaller, lighter, and faster to track a target with than a SAW is. If you had a choice between the two of them, I believe that even you would lean heavily toward the M4 for CQC.

I’m not going to derail this topic but favorite choice isn’t really the issue, the ability is there and it’s not to outright say “this would be totally useless” when that isn’t really true.
I didn't say outright useless Grizzly, I said heavily penalized. Which in my opinion, is both real life realistic when comparing the two, and mechanically advantageous for balance.
I am surprised how little interest this seems to have gleaned. Perhaps people feel they've already said their bit regarding this on Grizzly's firearms thread, which this is a tangent off https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/another-fantastic-firearms-idea-1796/
Yeah but in Sindome you can take an AK burst to the head and keep on trucking, even go to the bar afterwards and act like nothing happened.

I'm just biased because I used to lug around an M249, M240B, and shoot things with the M2 and Mk19 so I when you say heavy weapons I get nostalgic and smile about all the ways you could wipe out sinn street.

Like we need any MORE ways to light Sinn street on fire.

But I am with you guys on heavy weapons. They would be cool.

I really like Mong's idea of making them area of effect. It might even be possible to repurpose the code for FIRE. Sustain fire with the heavy weapon on a room and every so many ticks, everyone in the room takes a certain amount of damage.

Also, was shifting through old photos and found this when I did carry the m249. We had it set up for close end combat. Just sharing to give perspective of what I was talking about ;

As you can see I can hold this baby up with one arm, it's really not that heavy, compacted down, maneuverable, and in 2104 I'm sure they could figure out how to make it better designed :p

Area denial and collateral damage would be soooo cool.
Also after talking in ooc-chat, I am also talking about a "fill in" to make heavy weapons at least relevant with a weapon you could use for direct combat.

I favor making them a support weapon in the same sense that a sniper rifle is. Machine gunner sits on rooftop, engages, does smg damage or something if he hits. Even weaker damage that canvases everyone in s room would be kinda funny but render your support role useless.

Area denial and all that is great, but it shouldn't render right there in direct combat inept. You can direct combat with other weapons you probably don't think you can. The problem here is that weapon is logical in its response. A light machine gun can be wickedly fast and powerful. Perhaps have high accuracy penalties (but not enough to make it unusable) when not deployed in "sniping mode" ( aim lm at direction) and when in "sniping mode" it is far more accurate as it is on a bipod.

Just kicking ideas around. I love heavy weapons. It's probably gonna end up a niche part of the game, but I will still sit here and advocate for them.

Grizzly,

Yes. This.

Maybe mods to existing weapons to make them CP "heavy" versions of their originals?

Pistol shoots some weird energy bolts through walls?

Rifle becomes flamethrower? Grenade launcher?

SMG becomes area dispersal?

Just spitballing ideas

I think there's a lot to this idea of perhaps just adding items that function as heavy weapons to the existing skills. Doing that in the place of recreating an entire skill trees toolset solves the balance concerns that people are voicing and would enable us to remove a currently obsolete skill without losing the potential functionality heavy weaponry would bring in the future. If we assume the "heavy weapon" items in each skill tree are expensive and/or perform a specialist role in game (e.g: area denial/mounted only combat/etc) then they won't suddenly become the only weapon people use in combat either. Folks would have to choose between the functionality the "heavy" item offers and the more conventional tools of their weapon class. Obviously this approach would still require a lot of work from the staff to implement and isn't something we should expect to see in the near future, but if I knew this was the plan I wouldn't be disappointed should they decide to make the heavy weapon skill itself a thing of the past.

Mods as a means to alter the properties of a weapon in a more dramatic way than is currently doable is an interesting concept that bears further thinking about. I like the idea of more exotic mods for sure and I think with the right cost attached it wouldn't be too game breaking. Even now it is quite easy to spend as much if not more than your firearm cost on adding upgrades.

Can ruminate on the potential and possibilities of the concept ad infinitum, but I agree the skill should be outright disabled for now until something is actually done with it. There's already some dubiously valuable skills as it is, but it's deeply unfair to new players to have a trap skill that does literally nothing.
I think adding a "heavy weapon " to each skillet is interesting but unless it is something "special " it feels like it is just adding an ultimate weapon to each class. For example, My pistol skill is 785ue a raise,I'm pretty started out, I have the best pistol on the civilian market, the Harbringer .666 revolver drops. I toss my practical pistol for this omega gun and use it as my new daily carry because fuck it it's flash and it can dish out whopper damage.

You see where I am going with that? It's just another big pistol unless it has a specific purpose that maybe I am just missing.

Also, let's forward think into the future and say Anor blessed us with vehicle combat and rockets? Where would they fit in?

It starts to get muddy with the heavy weapon/class idea to me, but I can see it's merit also.

This is why I am suggesting the "heavy" item would provide different functionality to the conventional tools of that classes arsenal. It wouldn't necessarily be better, just different in it's application.