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Reasonable term limits for temp housing.
C'mon people. It's a cube, RP like it.

I'd like to propose that we have a policy shift when it comes to allowing players to live in temp housing ad-infinitum. Namely, that there should be a reasonable limitation on how long you can reside in these places before getting yourself a nice NPC eviction notice.

Something along the lines of perhaps a total of 3-4 weeks over 3-6 months. Not to say that this should be a hard-coded thing, or that there should be a 'get out of dodge' notice given the second you tick over that magical day number, but there seems to be a somewhat decent number of people living full-time in cubes.

And let's be real, this is really primarily a problem in Hab-X, which seems to be filled with unthemely corporate grifters and mixer exiles who are purely gaming the system here. Perhaps it's an awareness issue with players not realizing they can do more crimes on gold, but burglary and robbery seem like poor targets for that loosening of restrictions, given the 100% sic coverage and distance you need to travel in Hab-X to escape detection.

As for enforcement, corporates complaining to the hall to get grifters and slobs evicted from their property seems extremely on-theme to me. Thoughts?

It's common for hotels to limit stays to 30 days or less, lest they stray into the legal hell that is residential property law.

I'd say that kind of stay accommodates most legitimate use scenarios.

If someone wants to live topside long term they should be subject to the burden of topside rent.

May I propose an alternative, that Hab-X doors simply be made less secure than other housing types? This encourages more crime topside, rather than simply forcing it back down to red.
How does breaking into Hab-X cubes solve the problem of players being extremely risk adverse living in Hab-X? If the player is in the cube, all they have to do is report the crime on SIC or call 911 and the Judges will respond. This stuff works in Red because it's fairly lawless, but I don't see people kicking in Hab-X doors as particularly thematic, and it's pretty easy to play around as well.

If someone is being '''smart''' and minimizing their risk, their stuff is probably secured in a locker nearby.

And it's not purely risk adversity at play here, either. Cubes being dirt cheap for fresh immigrants makes sense, or for people down on their luck or between jobs, but they're so cheap as to make them an attractive alternative to players getting proper housing. I've even known some corporate players who lived in them full time until they pretty much got forced out through NPC means.

In my opinion this is the result of a lack of low-end housing that standard (non-paying) members can afford - both in the mix and topside. I personally believe that if there were more low-end options available, even if they cost a little more than an equivalent cube stay would cost, that people would jump on them.

In my experience, people who live in cubes do so because there are no currently available and reasonably priced alternatives. Just removing this low-cost option would be quite punishing to those who can not or do not purchase a higher level membership.

I'd be fine with this if there was actually enough low-end housing to support the current playerbase. There isn't, so people who are perpetually unable to find places to stay in the current low-end housing spaces have to live in these alternatives.
There's historically been a lot of players living out of Hab-X not because of a lack of housing but because it's a safe place to hide out and let heat die down or to stack up UE or just to be cheap.

While I agree some players should be given an our of conflict with this, I don't think it should be indefinite, and after a certain point they're playing neener-neener from Hab-X or simply being gamey and there should be more of a limit in regards to how long people can stay there.

I agree. This does happen sometimes. But I would rather see a solution that targets this very specific situation and not everyone - as not everyone using a cube to live in is doing it ti avoid RP and consequences.

Additionally, is such a limit were to be put in place in a universal way (not targeting those hiding from RP) you would have to have a system that no only prevented you from renting again once a threshold was reached but also hampered someone from just moving into another room.

Not saying I am for a universal change as I actually prefer targeted action that focuses on those trying to avoid RP and consequences.

Hiding in HabX forever while all your enemies are looking for you is more detrimental to you than anyone else. You're depriving yourself from a cutthroat CP experience, and it's also extremely negative for your character in terms of livelihood and reputation. If you play it safe, the loss is yours.
I've even known some corporate players who lived in them full time until they pretty much got forced out through NPC means.

In other words, it's already happening when the GMs determine that it's called for?

Cuboids do not prosper in this game.

I've seen people try and dodge heat by sitting in Hab-X and waiting for vacation.

This has never worked out well for that character.

As mentioned there are other cases of long-term cube living other than famous examples of characters running away from consequences.

From a purely practical standpoint, living out of the Habitat-X is much more optimal from a cost standpoint that actually living in 'real' accommodations.

There are service jobs where a character will make 70,000c to 85,000c a month or more, and where that income is notionally balanced around either paying topside rents or being subject to the dangers of living in the Mix.

Staying in the Hab-X splits the difference and mitigates both downsides. Are there a lot of characters doing this so that it becomes an issue? I don't know, but I don't think the option to do that really adds anything of value to the game.

Hab-X creates an avenue for it to be viable for a character to just live topside and only run crates and not only get by, but actually stockpile ~30,000c a month. Are these players going to be successful at Sindome? Probably not. Should this even be an option? I think it could be balanced out without much loss.

Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game. Aligning gameplay incentives with positive gameplay experiences tends to give a better overall experience for all involved.

idgaf if some cube dweller optimizes the fun out of their own game. Nobody's looking for ways to enforce help chastity too. All help chastity is is advice for what if you're not having enough fun. It's not something
It's not something that other players need to care about.
I did want to mention one other aspect that I feel comes into play in regards to people living in cubes - especially in cubes on gold. This is my opinion only.

Mixers should stop giving service mixers such a hard time. They are mixers, period. They do work on topside but so do many, many other mixers. Acting like they are this rare thing betraying the mix is, in my opinion, ignoring ambient pop and small worlding to a very noticeable degree.

We all have the right to RP our characters as we see fit but the choice to relentlessly plague any and all service mixers is, in my opinion, a questionable decision given the larger IC setting and can have negative impact on the game. It can often result in these mixers feeling their only choice is to live topside where they have a chance. This is a direct result of those choosing to target them in a way that is, in my opinion, disproportional.

Service mixers should live in the mix and that was staffs intent based on the information released when this role was established. It is also clear in the membership rules as they can not apply their memberships to topside locations. At the same time a large portion of mix players are making it nearly impossible for this to happen without the service mixer just giving up and accepting a long line of extreme attacks and deaths.

I am not saying that some mix PCs shouldn't have some hard feelings here. In theory these mixers make more chyen and maybe should be targeted for REASONABLE markups in a wide swath of areas. As a mixer criminal looking to move up, it make no sense to hunt your prey to the point where they leave your hunting grounds entirely.

I don't have an issue with service workers being hassled or being more sus then mixers who don't work topside. I think that makes sense to a degree. However, everyone should remember that your acme crate runs and your SHI jobs and yes, even your clinic jobs, are just as corporate. You think that's a small business you work for? Who does the rent get paid to for the lease? Is it a mega corp? Almost certainly. The only people who can claim not to be some kind of service worker that are working in the mix are the people in the park.

CGH? Corporate. Businesses? Pay money to the owner of the land which after some shell games is a mega corp or legalized criminal enterprise.

If you see a service mixer, instead of thinking oh this person is betraying the mix, think, oh this person has more than me. Both in money and in access. Look for ways to take advantage of them that don't involve simply robbing them. Use their access or job to get even more!

In the end, someone working topside is going to be persecuted to a degree but don't forget that in the end they are Mixers until they aren't. Even rival gangers get each other's backs when the jakes are in the Mix.

(Edited by Slither at 8:36 am on 11/7/2020)

Edited.

(Edited by Slither at 6:51 am on 11/8/2020)

In real life, the appeal of living in a motel is not having a lease and thus not having to pay for an entire month of lodging at a time. It's more expensive in total cost, but a necessary evil if you can't scrape up the money to pay for your lodging a month at a time.

Topside, the obvious IC downside to staying in a cube is that apartments are bigger and you have more space and the ability to personalize that space. In the Mix, the cheapest one-bedroom apartments are substantially more expensive per week than the same week in the cubes, and the average Mixer doesn't shower often enough for having to pay for showers to make up the difference. Moving out of the cube doesn't make economic sense.

If the concern with changing that is new immies not having a place to stay that they can afford, extending the length of time they can stay in a coffin might close the gap.

I don't see the need to impose some artificial restriction on living in Hab-X. From my own experience with it, you can sort of go mad isolating yourself like that, and there are many in-character themely social consequences. There's no need to go above and beyond to punish a style of play that is already disadvantageous.
New immies is not my concern personally. Players who do not pay for a membership and players who have a character with good IC reasons to go with a cube over an apartment are my concern.

I have played with and without a paid membership and while playing without an unpaid membership there was only one place int the mix outside of cubes I could rent that did not leave me feeling hugely economically disadvantaged and one place topside outside of cubes I could rent (even with the housing perk) that only left me feeling moderately economically disadvantaged.

I have also come across a few PCs that had compelling IC reasons for using cubes over an apartment that did not include "I am hiding from danger." Their concepts were fun and interesting and I don't see why players like this should suffer.

A service Mixer already has to deal with being ostracized in the Mix, on top of not being able to access topside housing with their membership pads. I feel like service Mixer roles topside are much harder to fill than similar Red Sector jobs and taking cubes away would just exacerbate that problem.
Stick in a Westinghaus equivalent to Gold maybe? Just make it 2 times more expensive, and it will still be affordable without being too cheap.
I could see the Gold equivalent to Westinghaus being like the off-campus apartment I lived in in college: shared common area with couch, kitchen, and other house stuff. Private bedroom and bathroom with a separate lock on the door. So you had no control over who ended up sharing your common space, but you still had a bedroom of your own.
Gold isn't meant to be residential whatsoever... Besides Hab-X, it seems.
I thought that the entire point of gold not having any housing was specifically so that players didn't live there for sheer convenience. Servies should ride the levs or save up their flash for a cheap bike to ride around. Sitting in a cube when you're not at your servie job because it's 'gameplay optimal' makes the game world in the corporate zones feel dead, which is a problem that Gold suffers from in general.
Which again... cubes to me, aren't intended to be living solutions. They're a place you can go to duck heat for a few days or to pop into when you gotta log unexpectedly, or if you're totally new to the game.

This is less of an issue in Red, where muggings, robberies and beatdowns in cube hotels are a regular occurrence.

Maybe just a policy for less lenience for corpies living in Hab-X and less leeway for Mixers?

I know a big argument of this is "Oh, but they're ruining the game for themselves."

I think other people are feeling their experience cheapened by people optimizing the hell out of their gameplay so when they do decide to start doing things, they've stacked UE and chy from running crates nonstop. It's not entirely dissimilar, in some cases, to people staying in the coffins forever, which apparently was an issue and I see as somewhat analogous.

Disable crates if you have an active cube rental?
Sounds terrible for service workers.
This will come off as odd as I am one of the people who brought up what, in my opinion, was a problem regarding how service mixers are treated. How they are targeted and treated in a way that, to me, only makes sense if the larger population of Withmore is ignored. Not that jealousy and dislike are inappropriate, they're fine. Just that the extremes I've seen pushed on them are potentially damaging in my eyes.

That being said, I think the long term answer here is on players leading the way. ON BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE. Mixers could stop pretending that having a job topside or for a corp is such a crazy thing and repeatedly destroying their lives because of this factor alone. Service Mixers could stop trying to live topside and be a mixer. In the mix. Even if it is hard at first.

A new norm will never happen if nobody is willing to engage in the bumpy ride it takes to get there. And if we do get there, I feel this would help reduce the number of people living in a cube on Gold.

In the end I see certain factors that I feel contribute to this problem. I'd rather see if the community can help address those contributing factors (lack of affordable housing for non-paying members and the way service mixers are treated) then see us plop on potentially arbitrary mechanics that limit cube stays that may impact characters that have good reasons for such extended stays. Those reasons can and do exist sometimes.

I think there's a strong role for staff in enforcing norms. They do that all the time with the gangs, for instance -- look at all the NPC initiated personnel changes over the last month or two -- and I think that influential puppets could be similarly powerful in establishing norms surrounding service mixers.

I think the general benefits to allowing service mixers to live effectively on Red again would be high: more crime on the levs, more pressure for people to buy vehicles (which in turn makes jobs at Kro's and similar places more sustainable), and more accessible cross-sector commerce for newer players and characters.

If a player cannot pay for a membership or their character is a service mixer and their character can't afford one of the Green pads, why can't they live at Habitat-X?

A lot of this thread seems like veiled sour grapes that people can't get service mixers they hate easily hit because they're living on Gold sector.

@Storm

If people were meant to live on Gold, there'd be residential there, right? And if you can't afford Green, there's Red.

To me it seems like just going by this thread there is enough difference in these cases and situations that there simply isn't a single type of behavior pervasive enough to warrant being mechanically adressed. This seems perfectly possible to enforce on an individual basis, when necessary.
People have already delved into why service mixers don't want to live on Red. Thus, they're living on Gold. If we want to talk about pushing theme another way, we can go there but I don't see anything wrong or unthemely with characters living where they do. It's only a very small minority of the player base that are doing what's described in this thread.
The premise of this post is looking at temp housing from a 2020 perspective.

My suggestion is to look at it from perspective of someone in 2105.

Literally millions of people are living on the streets.

Many millions more are crammed into single room apartments.

That "temporary" cube is luxury living for most of the population. A "secure" space that you do not have to share with anyone else? MixRich right there.

At the extreme end of the theme, I could see gangs springing up around individual cubes. Entire groups dedicated to making sure that rent gets paid on time and the cube does not expire.

I am not suggesting that the extreme end be implemented. Doing so would make the already challenging and sometimes burdensome act of getting housing even more burdensome for new characters.

But do keep ambient population in mind. A cube? You've made it chummer. A one room apartment, to yourself?! Holy shit, you're practically royalty at that point. 7500c a month for a place in the Ashlin Crown? That's the 0.01% of the Mix upper crust right there.

Think you're over-egging it a bit there, Hek. Or a lot in some aspects, 'cube gang' is good for immy harem memes but as a genuine idea, no.
I think it makes sense that there is a cost difference based on what zone you are in, but I don't see any direct reason to limit where people want to live outside of what is already being done. There may be in character reasons for players wanting to do so.

Even if it is simply, I don't like getting mugged all the time, I think there is room for those types of players as well. Certainly there would be enough in character motivation to live anywhere that you could afford that was safer.

As long as you can accept missing out on the perks of more permanent residence, then I'd see no problem with it.

@Wonderland

This might be a better discussion for Theme, but it also seems relevant here.

When you think of the ambient population of Red Sector, what do you think of? What percentage of them are homeless (lacking a 'permanent' residence)? What percentage are sleeping on the street? What percentage of them aren't sleeping on the street, but are sleeping somewhere that doesn't have basic amenities (running water, electricity, heat)? What percentage of them are sleeping in a place that exceeds the capacity it was designed for?

The two major thematic elements that come to mind are; we have been encouraged to think of Red Sector as worse than the most dense present day slums. Places like India and Brazil. We are also told that our characters are more or less the 1% of the population, the upper crust, the most successful individuals who actually have some chance of getting ahead.

I do not think it is too far fetched to imagine streets teeming with people who are simply wandering about because they have nothing else to do, no job, no real purpose other than a hope that someone gives them something to do, or that they come across someone weaker who they can victimize. I imagine people allying with whoever they have to just to make sure that one person is always awake and keeping an eye out for predators. I imagine that every boarded up storefront is concealing people lurking in the shadows, not because they are setting up an ambush, but simply because they have found a few moments of respite from the dangers of being on the street.

I imagine that 40% of the population of Red is either homeless or living in sub-standard conditions. The next 55% is living in overcrowded conditions, but at least they have electricity and running water, maybe heat. The last 5% are those who can afford a place in one of the various housing options available to characters.

As I said, this might be a better conversation for the Theme board. What I am trying to do is to encourage everyone to view housing through the lens of someone in 2105 Withmore. That view is going to be dramatically different than how we as players view temporary housing in 2020.