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Weapon balance
Small suggestions

Cyberweapons are cool and themely as hell but they're also really really bad for a ton of reasons and the use cases for them are very limited.

I suggest making it so that barehanded people take damage when they parry attacks from Nailz and Knux similar to how they do with any other knife or a pair of brass knuckles. This would go a long way toward improving them.

I also think that two-handed weapons should negate or reduce the defender's parry bonus from dual wielding. Currently (as far as I know and I may be mistaken) weapons that require two hands to use are no different from one handed weapons which means that a couple of weapon classes are just arbitrarily better than others. This wouldn't totally solve people's complaints about dual wielding (which I understand has some future stuff planned?) but it would fix the scissors beats paper and rock situation we seem to have going on now.

The first part I totally agree with.

The second one might be more of a problem than I've seen, but also I think it should be considered that parrying with them would sensibly be a lot easier.

A big-ass sledgehammer with a plastic stick is probably easier to hold up and block a hit with, than, say, a butterfly knife.

I'm talking about someone with a two-handed weapon attacking a guy who is dual wielding, like the oft-cited example of bo staff vs double knuckles. If the bo staff (and other 2h weapons) treated the defending dual wielder like they were using only a single weapon when they rolled against the dual wielder's defense, it would partially mitigate what is seen as an unfair advantage that some weapon classes have over others, and give people more reasons to consider grabbing a shotgun or a sledgehammer instead of two swords or whatever.
Can you detail out the issues regarding the balance of two handed weapons? I know we made changes 6 months back or so. If those changes have resulted in an imbalance, it's something we can look at. If the parry/defense bonus is too high for instance.

Or maybe two handed weapons should be treated as if you are dual wielding in terms of parry bonus?

Dual wielding weapons confer a bonus to parrying if you have the skill (or a penalty if you do not). For the most part you can effectively dual wield swords, knuckles, knives, and a few melee weapons (mostly the weaker ones).

This means that martial arts and most melee fighters can't access the dual wielding bonus while other close combat fighters can, and they get no benefit in return. Swords were already probably the best weapon in the game for just so many reasons and this only turns them up to 11 while leaving MA and melee out in the cold.

I think Vera brings up some solid points here.

From my perspective, Martial Arts being left out is a feature not a bug. Martial Arts relies on agility which naturally synergies with nearly all weapon type in some fashion and obviously makes your hands hella danger. The inherent bonus with brass knuckles, the muscleboy build, and strength use for brawling over a martial artist with bo staff seem like a fair trade.

Melee suffering on the dual wielding bonus on the other hand is a bit of a travesty. My assumption was that the two handed weapons available to a melee user would incorporate suitable bonus' to damage or something to offset the lack of dual wielding. If they don't - I think some suitable balancing should take place for sure. I don't think it should be a straight up apples for apples parry/defense boost though but I trust the quartermaster to work out those numbers accordingly.

On a sidenote, Nailz being awful is a tragedy and I'm sorry I ruined them for everyone by going crazy with them many moons ago.

Regarding Synth-Knuckz, at one point they were able to parry bullets and needed to nulled because that was nonsense but I lack familiarity beyond that.

And yes applying the parry bonus to a skilled fighter with a two-handed weapon could also work IMO. I floated my idea to help keep the rock paper scissors idea alive but that might be simpler.
Just to throw in a bit of RL training experience, dual weapons were more or less invented / became popular explicitly because they are extremely effective in dealing with long / two handed weapons.

Sai's from Japanese martial arts and Wing Chun butterfly knives (not to be confused with Filipino butterfly knives) are prime examples. Sai's were a popular counter to katanas. While butterfly knives were a counter to staffs and spears. Nunchaku are another weapon that were effective against longer, two handed weapons.

Given that, dual wielders should absolutely gain a parry bonus against two handed weapons (when using the appropriate weapons).

At the risk of going off on a tangent, don't even get me started about the impracticality of using a staff on a crowded street, inside a building, or in any other sort of tight quarters.

OK but in real life if I have a gun I instantly kill whoever I want with very little skill needed and that's why we don't use swords anymore.

It's a video game.

@Vera,

I thought the discussion was about parrying bonuses for dual wielding versus two handed weapons.

What do guns have to do with that?

Vera used the gun example because you're injecting real life equations into in-game mechanics. It's neither here or there what happens IRL when we're discussing balance in combat. Vera's point is that in real life a shot to the head kills you. In game it doesn't because that'd be mechanically game-breaking.
Well fuck it then. Let's just throw all realism out the window and make a dildo the most powerful weapon. Because video game.
Sorry, that was uncalled for.
I'll have you know the TruColorz dildo are available in original iMac colors and have the greatest critical hit message in the entire game. They are the best weapon in the game as far as I'm concerned.
And you can dual wield them ;)
Just to say I think there should be more thought put in to this rather than "give two handed weapons the same bonus as dual-wielding weapons" because that just flips the rock/paper analogy of dual wielding brass knuckles vs. one bo staff, and for much cheaper. And would instantly unbalance bo staff vs. a single brass knuckle.

There was a pretty insane example of the parry bonus conferred from dual wielding yesterday, but I'm sure the GMs are aware and might be the reason for this post.

That's why I presented my initial idea. You would have single one-handed weapons which are the economical bet and allow for the use of your free hand, you have dual wielding which puts more money on the table in exchange for a boost to defense, and you have two-handed weapons that can't dual wield but can negate the dual wielding bonus that their opponents might try for.

Guns kind of do their own thing but parrying is a factor there. Two-handed guns could also strip dual wielders of their defensive bonus from dual wielding.

It would reward sword/knife/knuckle users who knew what they were going to be up against ("I know he's got a sledgehammer, I'll just bring one katana."), and anything that rewards the use of good intel is good in my book.

Also unrelated and probably harder to do but please give Enforcers an SMG mode. You don't see enough SMGs around. You could copy/paste the messaging from another SMG and I don't think anyone would be too upset.

I'm not sure how much I can say here without crossing a line so I'll do my best. The short version is that I don't care for dual wielding. Not as it works now at least.

Also, this idea that Martial Arts synergizes well with other skills and thus can be nerfed to oblivion is annoying to me. I could say the same about Long Blades, Short Blades, Pistols, Rifles and SMGs. They all synergize well with other skills so they can ALL be nerfed into oblivion if that's our argument. Even Brawling and Melee synergize well together and while it is certainly less, it's still there. Lots of skills can synergize.

Long Blades:

This skill was already the awesomest. Damage was great. It synergized well with other skills (MA's not the only one that does this) and you can do things with swords you can't do with any other weapon. I don't think they needed yet more of a boost from Dual wielding.

Martial Arts:

Synergizes well with other skills on par with Long Blades, Knives, Guns and the like. Unique to MA, when you use a staff you are actually less effective in a fight in one specific way than you would be without it. There is a penalty to using a staff. I was specifically told this was because the Staff was great at parrying. It was a trade off. And there is no other option for MA. It's bare knuckles, two handed staff or nothing.

Brawling:

Brawling Synergizes well with melee. Brass Knucks do good damage and are pretty much the best 'uanarmed combat' weapon in the game. They do not suffer the penalty in combat that staff users get. But that was okay because they didn't used to get any kind of parry bonus. Well. Now they do. And you can see how nice this is in game. So the supposed benefit staffs enjoyed at the cost of a penalty is no more.

Melee:

Synergizes well with Brawling. These guys are hit just as hard as Martial Artists. If you use melee weapons you are likely going to have to make a hard choice that Swords, knives, brawl and gun users will not have to make. If you are a melee fighter you usually have to sacrifice damage to dual wield and get the parry bonus or take the damage without the parry bonus by using a two handed weapon. Only other skill that faces problems at this level is MA and they just don't get a choice at all.

Short Blades:

Another skill that synergizes great with many other skills. Just aswell as Martial Arts and Long Blades and guns can synergize. But I don't think that dual wielding takes an already powerful knife skill and makes it yet more powerful. Knifes always felt middle of the road to me at best. So it is a boon to knifers. Luckily, they can just dual wield and enjoy. No hard choice needed.

Pistols:

Similar to short blades and long bades and brawling (no hard choice). But I personally am not interested in seeing more pistol users who are supposed to be maintaining distance blocking sledgehammers with their guns. Granted, it doesn't happen often but I suspect dual wielding just makes it happen more often. Oh. This skill ALSO synergizes well with other skills on the same level as MA, knives, Long Blades and the like.

Rifles:

Yep. Never gonna get it. No parry for you. Same boat as Martial Arts really except it makes more sense given how you use Rifles. Oh. This skill also synergizes well with other skills.

SMG:

Same camp as Rifles really.

@Grey0

I think you and I are on the same page for the most part.

About two or three months ago, I left detailed feedback and suggestions for the team regarding some of the current state of weapon balance- which I feel for sure is off.

The parry bonus to DW was a nice inclusion, but I think it broke several things pretty badly.

My suggestions for the team were the following:

1) Make brass knuckles a bit more expensive, and make them a matched pair or a two-handed weapon. Right now these things are above and beyond overtuned, and I think simply based on the number of times I've seen them in combat use by both friend and foe it's a 2-fold issue, one being that they simply do too much damage for the 'tier' of weapon they are and two, with the parry changes, they don't really have a downside to speak of other than the fact they are a mid-range weapon in terms of cost.

2) Bo staff really needs to be looked into. With the parry changes in the game, this thing is just crusty, old and obsolete.

3) Long Blades should be broken down into one or two handed weapons. The concept of dual-wielding Katanas and machetes is very silly to me, whereas something like a bokken or wakizashi makes perfect sense.

I think that the suggestion to make 2-handed weapons more accurate, for a lack of a better term is a good one.

Grey makes a good point about martial arts, just because it has good synergy with other skills and because players often use it as a backup skill doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to stand on its own.

If every build had to invest in two skills just to be effective then nobody would be happy. you definitely don't see swordsmen or melee users having to do this.

I'm just coming back to this now, and I want to say my bad.

I thought the idea was that melee shouldn't have dual wield bonuses, and I misunderstood.

My bad, I take that back. +1

Agreed on MA, having it relegated to a backup skill is a disservice.

I'd also like to see something a little more modern in terms of weaponry. The idea that everyone carries around these huge wooden sticks in the year 2104 is kind of silly. It's a discussion for another day but expandable bo staffs do exist.

Off track af but

I really like that idea.

While I know that MA has few weapons for a reason, the idea of a telescoping titanium bo (or somesuch) with the extendable baton commands is bad ass.

This thread is derailed and all so Just to hop in on that you can party with a rifle in real life bakas. see bayonet assault course.

Also you can duels wield smudges and lay down a wall of bullets.

/off topic reeeeing

MA isn't a "backup skill" and a lot of these posts are spilling the beans about game mechanics way too hard. Also once again y'all've dogpiled a simple thread about some simple tweaks with pie in the sky overhaul ideas.

If you have comments for staff that contain IC or mechanics info please use @notes or email or something.

Agree that katanas should probably be two handed, or at least not usable in an off hand.

+1 to what Vera said about too much IC information.

My head is still reeling and I barely understand most of what Grey0 wrote. But now I know that there is a whole bunch of interplay in between various skills that I never knew existed. I know that certain weapon combinations are "better" than others due to the way code is written.

There is so much meta in this thread it should probably be deleted.

A lot of it was incorrect if that helps, Hek.
I cannot stress enough how meticulously balanced weapons are by the quartermaster.

Just because you see someone doing amazing shit with one weapon and you suck with yours - doesn’t mean it’s the skill or weapon that’s at fault.

Perpetuating misinformation on the bgbb only further divides the gap between newbie’s and veteran players. Be constructive and responsible with what you share.

Let’s focus on dual wielding balance, yeah?

Maybe something like adding a 'reach' modifier to weapons would help? Butterfly knives have like, 6 inches of reach, a Bo staff has upwards of 6 feet. To emphasize two handed weapons, you give the two handed wielder a significant defensive bonus that the duel wielder has to ablate before they can 'get inside the reach' at which point, maybe it flips around?
That is all way too complicated.
Let's just remove weapons entirely and make this a furry ERP game.
This thread should probably be deleted due to all the derailing, mechanics info, and bad advice.

The dual wielding system that was added six months ago conferred an extra advantage to three weapon classes that definitely didn't need the help, cyberweapons got nerfs over the years that make them unappealing, and people aren't choosing to use SMGs because it's the only gun that locks you out of an archetype. I think that's really all that needed to be said.

The Dual Wielding thread was locked so I figure this may be the next best thing since it's unlocked.

I apologize if this has already been brought up and discussed, there's a lot to sift through and I didn't notice it.

I hear a lot about how guns aren't attractive right now for one reason or another and that dual wielding is really popular because of it's particular benefits.

I don't see any mention of this, but what if dual wielding guns had it's own bonus to mirror melee weapons so it was easier to hit with 2 guns, instead of melee being easier to defend with when dual wielding?

I think this could keep it competitive.

I tried to push for the use of existing game commands to better support mixed wielding of firearms about a year ago, but didn't have very good success in that regard. I'm personally of the opinion that if someone wants to use an Uzi and a sword, that's super badass theme, and probably wouldn't be terribly overpowered given the fact you'd be limiting your options by specializing in multiple weapon types.

Now, I will say, that there ARE IC benefits to dual wielding firearms, but let's say that they're more niche in usage, and very specific to what the exact kind of weapon you're trying to use is.