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Wheels need some love
Vehicle mechanics revamp please?

It is my belief that the vehicle system in sindome needs a little bit of love, if for no other reason than to provide for some more RP elements for players. I would like to discuss a few ideas I have.

Firstly, add in an ‘economy’ tier of parts, or alternatively, lower the price of the ‘basic’ parts and add a new mid level. The purpose for this is to create a market for upgrades, and upgrade services.

This ties into the second piece...mechanical wear. The tires, engine, and transmission at minimum should all experience wear simply through use. Perhaps the ‘economy tires’ wear less than ‘performance tires’, at the tradeoff of a huge traction disadvantage? Either way, vehicle users will have to interact with mechanics in order to maintain their vehicles, rather than just driving at a snail’s pace with minimum UE to avoid damage.

Next, and I don’t have a way to test this but I have my suspicions...add in the ability to damage vehicles. See your rival’s bike parked outside the club? Go knife their tires. Someone jumped the curb and nearly hit you? Throw a pipe bomb through their window.

Speaking of jumping the curb...adding in the ability to run people over (again, if it’s not already implemented) would be a nice touch. Obviously a fairly difficult maneuver to pull off, and dependant on vehicle speed to do damage.

The final suggestion I have at the moment, is to change vehicle storage from the current ‘locker’ system, into something more like an apartment. This way there are tangible rooms that the cars (and maybe some spare parts?) can be stored in, with the added RP benefit of allowing people to tail a driver into a garage, or figure out the stall number of their vehicle an attempt a break-in RP. This could also encourage topside crime, with mixers heading up to green to try and break into a garage to get that rare car to sell.

I am open to conversation on these topics, and I’m sure all of you have many more ideas to add, or thoughts on those I suggested. Thank you!

Can we just get some none 2089 models?
The reason that you can't just suddenly slash a tire with your knife, or there not being 'wear' is because vehicles already cost a lot for the standard player. Now this could be solved with your economic part suggestion but then it'd basically ignore the entire point of vehicles being expensive to obtain, being expensive to damage and also being relatively being expensive to replace.
Can we just get some none 2089 models?

Yes please. Although I'd feel bad for all the people with old Kois, because that would immediately become a point of mockery.

"Nice eighty niner, chum. I'm just going to assume you've made a nest in the back seat out of tinfoil and second-hand ponchos."

2089 kois could be what is today's 1969 pontiacs

men love classics

Or a 1989 Civic.
https://youtu.be/R9yhtMCMAgE @crook
@Rangerkrauser ,

Thank you for your reply! While I agree that the way vehicles currently are would certainly make them effectively unuseable for all but the wealthiest players, the current mechanics are also not conductive to vehicle themed RP.

Vehicles as they are, are effectively (not exclusively, but certainly majorly) a one time cost that spurs almost no RP (there's the vehicle transfer bit, but even that isn't all of the time).

I would like to see more opportunities for vehicle centric RP, and I believe my suggestions would provide that.

Also, is there anything else in my post that you liked or disliked? I understand it was long, but I don't think vehicles in sindome can be addressed with one single tweak, but rather requires a multitude of adjustments.

@Ranger it works cause he's a tofu delivery boy who knows the mountain like the back of his hand, not cause the eight six is as flash as an Eberhardt.

Although now I think someone needs to race the Street Kings in their Koi, right?

@ranger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBs455jwb8w
You can steal vehicles and they can be damaged by shitty drivers though, so there’s that.

As for 2089 koi owners, have a trade in option. Gimme dat 2103 Koi with the heated seats and rim rag washer baby

@Crook

meet me at the mountain

@RedSteel

I gotta disagree that they spurn no RP, especially in the Mix. As someone who's effectively taken plots in various vehicle plots (stealing, destroying) vehicles definitely play a MAJOR part in schemes and plots against other players. Sure, some of these plots are done by wealthiest and well-connected PCs and maybe you haven't heard of it, and I think that is intended by staff.

Like I said, targetting vehicles and damaging them isn't easy but that's because obtaining a vehicle isn't easy.

As for running people over, that'd have to be really, really balanced because it'd be a way of damaging/killing a PC without giving them any chance of retaliation/fighting back. There'd need to be a definite counterplay to it that allows players to not just get rammed without a chance to see their attacker.

As for tailing people into garages.. this can already be done in a way. You can't break into lockers, sure, but that's because it's a locker system like you said and that's not intended. There's already a timeframe where if you know someone's going to park their vehicle that you can set up for it (if you want to take the IC risk and consequences that come with it). Also, such 'locker garages' are only present in certain locations and not everywhere and topside locations are already easier to spot a vehicle and break into it.

I think traffic is way too heavy and hard to mitigate and way too many cars are tiny euro-ass two seaters. We have like 4 economy class cars, one Holden that looks like a Dodge Viper, and a ferrarri, plus the various utility vehicles. There should just be like a plain ass sedan that a hulking character doesn't look hilarious getting out of.

I've posted elsewhere that motorcycles are too good. Ducking traffic on a slice should have a skill check and present a risk of crashing. Traffic should be lessened in general so that car people don't feel like they're missing out, especially since cars are more expensive than bikes.

Garages/storage are fine as is and I'm not at all into people messing with cars when the owners aren't around to respond because a certain percentage of players will always assume that because they are not mechanically prevented from doing something that they should do it as often as possible.

Failing to properly lane split on a bike has potential for some ouchies

express tube circa 2104

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWct_KYGRQo

I think cutting through traffic on bikes could be a toggle, like ride safe/ride dangerous or something, just so people who own bikes but don't want to be badasses aren't eating shit all the time.

@Vera I like the skill check idea for bikes. Now EMTs with ambulances and sirens will have something -only- they can do--respond to major accidents.
I also like the toggle idea that either lets you go be a road demon or just drive your vespa like a pizza boy.
I actually think bikes are fine as they are because there are already a lot of disadvantages to owning one. They may be cheaper, but they're only better in one way. Can't really mention their negatives without giving people that don't know OOC advantages though.
@Ephermeralis,

These are all great! I love all of your suggestions, thank you!

I honestly don't think it's beneficial to allow someone with a 3000 chyen tire iron to damage a vehicle that costs 20K+ usually to repair, on top of the fact that the owner spent a considerable amount of chy to obtain the vehicle too.

Nothing like a big OOC fuck you than making someone lose 20K+ chyen while they're offline just because you have a random weapon and used 'bash' on their bike/car.

Ranger,

You already have to xhelp to steal a car. Maybe a confirmation prompt before attacking one is the solution to this as well?

Vehicles aren't just entities that have no way of being damaged. You just need more tan a 3000 chyen tire iron and some plotting to damage a vehicle, like I said at this current point of the game.

Which makes sense to me because like I said, vehicles aren't safe. The things you're already talking about already do happen and PCs routinely use safe garages/parking to ensure that they don't get their vehicle fucked up by powers that be. I think you're just assuming that nobody ever does anything regarding vehicles and even parking them out on the street is safe -- and no it isn't.

Yes, there is no way for the average ganger to fuck up the Hayasa of the solo that killed his gangmembers with the tire iron/machete he has. Is that a problem? No. Is there a solution? In my opinion, yes, and that is going to someone with the means to damage vehicles and hiring them, paying them chy or working for them to get your sweet revenge.

I’ve never whined about them being exspensive. I remember years ago when I had like 3 vehicles and they all got stolen and chopped up and I was like welp, guess I should have parked them somewhere safe. Mix liffffffe boiiii.
Ranger,

That still doesn't address vehicles being a one time investment. That is as a whole, a negative feedback loop to RP. If you are able to use this expensive item relatively risk free, with no upkeep cost, then it doesn't promote RP.

Firearms require maintenance to be used, this leads to a lot of RP opportunities surrounding them. Why can't vehicles be the same way?

@necronex666

I know the disadvantages you're talking about and to some extent I agree, but those situations come up pretty rarely in practice and 99% of the time I'd rather own a motorcycle than a car.

Maybe the problem isn't that bikes are better than cars, but that cars aren't good enough. Yes cars confer several advantages but they also cost way more and being mostly dorky looking and slower than the lev sometimes makes them feel unappealing.

Compare that to aeros, which are not that much more expensive than cars and are a million times better in every conceivable way. Needing a separate skill offsets that but I think the end result is that cars are just kind of lackluster.

I wholeheartedly support Eph's suggestions to damage or mess with a car that's occupied or in use, however it would be kind of crummy if every single day every work van, ambulance, and taxi was completely destroyed and tagged up because someone logged in at 4am and did what a certain subset of Sindome players love to do.

Cheap shitty cars that suck and need repairs for mechanics to do should definitely be a thing. Maybe they're so trash you can't even get em on the highway or something whatever crutch needs to be imposed on them. IMHO
@RedSteel

Because guns are cheaper and easier to obtain than vehicles and the upkeep of them is also very relatively cheaper. Unless you fuck up BADLY, you don't even need someone with a different skillset to usually maintain your firearm except buying an item. Which is also the case for vehicles right now. Unless you FUCK up badly and need a mechanic, the upkeep is the fuel that you have to purchase at regular intervals.

You can't kill other players on the street topside without GM support. The reason for this is that if you could, topside would never ever ever be safe.

You have to approach design in a game like this with the assumption that some chucklefuck is going to run absolutely anything you code into the ground the instant they feel like they are able. It would sure be nice if we could trust people to behave reasonably but it's a big game and that's not the world we live in.

Letting someone damage an occupied car or haul people out so that it couldn't be used as a perfect invulnerability bubble would be great. Letting people walk around the Mix smashing every single windshield in the game because no GMs are online to stop them is annoying, especially since these issues tend to be dealt with IC and that's just a lot of hassle for everyone due to some very low effort trolling.

And before someone jumps in with a gotcha: topside is never safe, I know that. I mean that every single Mixer would be up there looking for loot pinatas while the judges did nothing.
@XXXXXX

I don't understand your 'YOU GOTTA PLOT TO DAMAGE MY CRICKET' reference at all. It is a RPI game and you want people to immediately without any plotting or scheming, randomly be able to damage things without any kind of forethought behind it? It's not hiding behind anything and I entirely disagree if you think anybody would be happy to let you damage a vehicle they RPed, plotted, put effort in, worked towards and hustled to obtain, only for someone to just come along and damage it without any effort plotting on their own end.

You already have to xhelp before you do anything to vehicles -- in the Mix or topside -- so that GMs are ready to respond to it. The same case would happen if you just added a 'bash' verb, so it'd not really be putting it into 'player' hands -- it already IS in player hands right now. The only GM support needed to damage a vehicle is xhelping before, and then allowing the GM responsible to damage the vehicle appropiately depending on what you did.

Like Vera said, things to do to a vehicle IN use are plausible and I can definitely see the point but parked vehicles with owners offline already aren't really 'safe' and I don't think there's a change necessary when it comes to that. There were already idea threads to wrestle control for the car when you're using it and have a passenger for example and I was entirely supporting of that.


(Edited by Johnny at 5:52 pm on 3/5/2020)

I feel like we might be coming at this from the wrong direction. Instead of making cars worse, maybe we should be making car parts better/more accessible/more necessary or even having consumable parts you can install to give mechanics more action.

For instance, maybe you get some kind of turbo-boost noz that lets your car rocket magically through traffic, but you have to buy new tanks from the mechanic. Car parts are a bit vanilla. If they were more like chrome with options (thermal vision?) that might cause people to invest more.

My issue with making cars easy to damage is that people will abuse it. Mechanics will abuse it, too. Once you realize you can fuck up vehicles and then they have to come to you for repairs, there's your business model. If you have a vehicle in Red, you'll need to keep it in a garage. Which then sets up this whole meta, "Oh look, a tall shrouded geezer is going into Millsport, let's get him." Or even hanging out in the shadows outside a garage and jacking people who look jackable.

@ranger

What RP does filling the fuel tank of the car stimulate? While it may be an upkeep cost, it is one that has no tangible benefit for the interaction of players.

@XXXXXX

I like the idea of monitored lots and passworded garages. I don't like the locker system though, and I don't think anyone will change my mind on that one.

@Vera

I'm on board with vehicles being fair game when they are occupied, but I would also like a semi-automated system that allows people to thrash a car with GM approval even if the owner isn't around.

(Edited by Johnny at 5:52 pm on 3/5/2020)

@RedSteelButterfly

I was responding to your arguement that firearms require maintenance. There's no difference between me using 'fill grasshopper with tower' versus 'dismantle beretta' in your logic.

@Ranger

There's an entire firearms maintenance skill that goes with the dismantling the beretta, that is outside even using the gun.

I don't even think filling a car with ethicol has a skill check.

@RedSteel

You'd be wrong about that.

@Ranger

Which part?

The first part.
Cars aren't completely invulnerable. I'm not sure why you don't just treat it the same as someone who has an apartment. RP getting their trust or trail in after them. I find suggesting otherwise as alarmingly inaccurate as previous complaints about the boot command being added for PC taxi drivers.

There's not enough people buying vehicles as is overall. Adding the ability to damage with minor tools/weapons will just see that number dwindle. I agree there isn't enough for mechanic types to do on a consistent basis. Could probably fix this by minor wear and tear over time and/or based on weather condition or @crooknose's suggestions.. Vehicles can and have been damaged in certain types of situations before, maybe mechanics should generate business a little bit more directly too if they want.

I think bikes are fine as is. I agree with @Necronex666 for that one. I'd adjust the traffic hours in game to last less to help out car drivers, because it can get awful and frustrating. However, there is actually some things you can do in game to ease that situation. You just have to FOIC and/or think about it for a bit.

Gun maintenance is not a good analogy because it requires limited equipment, the equipment is mobile and anyone with a soft can fix even a really fucked up weapon.

By comparison, cars require specific shops to have to work done, of which there are only 3 in the game to my knowledge (and 1 for AVs). The reason for this is to protect mechanics.

You know. What about anything like this:

1. Cars and bikes get dirty as they're driven and require a mechanic to clean. There's an automated car wash at the shop but PC mechanics are allowed to do it for cheaper.

2. Having your car tuned improves performance and ethicol mileage commensurate with the mechanic's skill, but the effect fades over time, encouraging repeat maintenance.

3. The aforementioned ideas about different types of parts, more like chrome, where they produce specific effects.

Even just having car washes would force corporate players to use mechanics and the whole tuning thing could save people money on ethicol and improve the car's general stats for a time, which could be handy for a racing subculture. Also, the nos idea.

I like Crooknose's idea quite a lot.

get that hose and wash my vehicle!

Plus it'd open up opportunities for people to make fun of each other's dirty unwashed car.

@Crooknose

I like your ideas, though I still very strongly feel that there should be wear parts on a car, otherwise players just tool around at minimum speed so they never damage their vehicles, players don't have motivation to fix something barely damaged right now, but if parts were to degrade with use, opting for the cheaper early repair over your tires blowing out and needing a tow would be a thing.

"I'm on board with vehicles being fair game when they are occupied, but I would also like a semi-automated system that allows people to thrash a car with GM approval even if the owner isn't around."

Such a system exists for other things with automated dispatches and everything and people still frequently abuse it. Unpuppeted NPCs are easy to get around if you know what you're doing and the system has proven to be imperfect.

I don't know why you think that in a city of 78 million people you'd be able to just walk up to a random car and smash it to pieces with no one even looking twice at you, or why you think that would be a fun thing for anyone.

I think it's rather silly when just about one skill has the ability to damage vehicles directly. Not subvert but damage.

That's kinda dumb.

Let's take that concept a few step further.

You can now only damage other players with swords.

You can only damage NPC's with melee.

You can now kill sleepers but only with Cyberware weapons.

You can only grapple if you've got a special grapple glove and at least five ranks in Biotech.

In no other place do you see an offensive action against really anything or anyone restricted to a single skill.

My advice, if I wanna kick your fucking car, let me dent some panels. But add a security system feature for mid and higher end non stock security systems that deals damage back to me...

Similarly to Eph I'll suggest another verb for the beefy among us. Mostly to be used on motorcycles.

Tip, tip the vehicle over, takes a check to right the vehicle if it's successful and deals chip damage of sorts to it. This can be used on everything from crickets which would have a very very very low check to right and to tip, And at ludicrous strength levels, to things like cargo vans and AV's to disable them completely until a similarly strong person or a tow truck or (POTENTIAL SUGGESTION) an AV retrieval rigger drone came around...

Rhea,

Characters =/= Vehicles

I disagree.

Let me put it this way.

I want to break into your apartment,

I have more options to get into it now, than I do to damage your car.

I want to kill your dog.

More options now than I do to damage your car.

I want to take your gun...

And so on.

Every other hostile action has more than one approach to it.

Restricting it to a single skill as it is now is a travesty.

Disarming someone is reliant on only one skill.

Breaking into an apartment and shadowing someone is reliant on one skill.

Killing my dog requires one combat skill.

How does any of that require more than one skill compared to breaking into a car, which also, is reliant on one skill plus stats like the rest of your examples?

I'm sorry but the apartment example just isn't true. You have exactly one more option in some cases and that option is eliminated in others. You can do what you to do an apartment to a car with absolutely zero skill checks and all entirely based on RP.
I am open to vehicles being graffiti'd if that isn't already a thing, as long as some solvent takes it off. Maybe you can get out your kicks that way--BUT, if that vehicle has a shocker security system, it blows you out of your shoes.
*in terms of alleged vulnerability.I should've added that to my post.
Killing your dog can be done with about 7 skills.

Breaking into your apartment can be done with several as well, not just the sneaky way, but the other ways require planning and timing. I'm not going to go into how if you guys haven't seen fit to account for it.

As it is, I have ONE SKILL, that I can use to damage a car if I wanted too. Two if I wanted to Subvert the car.

That's dumb. Open it up. Your investment shouldn't be safe, just because it's a large investment.

Oh also you should absolutely be able to aim into a car and shoot people in there unless they have bulletproof windshields.
You still need only one skill to kill a dog, even if you have a choice of seven.

Breaking into an apartment sure does has several ways but they all, also, rely on a single skill.

You said damaging vehicles was reliant on one skill only and others weren't. No, it's not locked into that.

You're assuming that damaging a vehicle in the most common way is the ONLY way. No it isn't. It's just the easiest and requires the least GM support, hence why people choose to do it. It also gives certain archetypes more jobs to do.

There are archetypes for a reason. Not everyone can be good at doing all the things. If you run a combat character you're good at killing things. If you run a decker you're good at decking. If you run a ninja you're good at ninjaing. If you run a thief you're good at thieving.

And there are also archetypes specific to damaging/targeting vehicles, which is a major selling point of their skillset.

You know, after thinking about this, I realized there's actually three skills you can use to damage a vehicle. You just have to work with other people. So this complaint only grows more inaccurate because people just assume damaging = hitting something. That isn't correct.

Also sure. Let's shoot into vehicles and let's have cars run over people as a response. I'll take that.

What crashdown said. If you give a combat character the ability to damage vehicles on their own then they won't need those OTHER people and won't hire them, since they will have the ability to just do things on their own, effectively reducing RP and screwing over certain archetypes that are already very rare as it is.
There's also archetypes based around repairing and modifying vehicles, who have VERY tortuously little to do most times.

And those archetypes who can do something to the vehicles, know what they can do?

They can affect things that aren't cars too.

Let's throw mechanics and gearheads a bone here, and give them some interesting fucking shit to deal with on the regular.

Don't want people abusing it. Have policy built around preventing people from abusing it.

Just like we do for pickpocketing.

Just like we do for ganger looting.

Just like we do for excessive theft.

Just like we do for excessive murder.

Just like we do for car theft.

Just like we do for topside violence.

Is that understandable?

And bashing cars and letting anyone damage cars out of the blue isn't the way to go about it, Rhea. As Crooknose said, cars accumulating dirt with use would be a perfect way to give gearheads something to do. Or letting them tune cars.

Letting people damage vehicles as they see fit is the worst option out of all the things you can do to 'give gearheads a bone'.

It's also the one requiring the least amount of work.
I will absolutely 110% without question immediately agree with everyone that says gearheads need on a consistent basis more things to do with their skills.

However, gearheads now can actually do some of what they want that isn't generated by employment in game if you stop to think about it for a moment and involve other people. It involves other people, effort and time, but it can be done.

I'm also for crooknose's suggestions of increased options for installations and others' plus my own thoughts that minimal wear and tear, particularly in weather conditions, should be considered. And the car wash idea was actually pretty cool for an aesthetic effect.

No it isn't the least amount of work because then there will be players going around smashing vehicles at 4AM and fucking things up leading to IC and OOC fuckups and GMs having to take off puppet time to deal with the players and those situations.

It's one that requires the biggest amount of overwatch from GMs and is the one that will probably lead to the most amount of problems.

yeah your ride could definitely get tarnished if it's parked on the street. Incentivizes garages without making them mandatory and gives mechanics something to do, especially topside where you're going to get laughed at for driving a shabby hayasa
This is all about game balance. That's where the conversation needs to start, not from a "I want to do this so I should be able to perspective."

Also, comparing combat to most everything else in the game is not the most illuminating. You can use a large number of skills in combat, but that doesn't mean that everything else in the game should be done with multiple skills.

'Why can't I use artistry instead of medicine to patch up wounds? They both involve sewing.'

'Why can't I tell how much things weigh using forensics? It means I have a fine grasp of detail.'

See what I mean? Each skill has its uses. What Ranger said about their being archetypes for a reason is dead on.

All I want are some bangin ass hydraulics and sound system the rest of this thread is invalid
@Ranger

Players should absolutely be able to vandalize cars at 4am when no one is around. Just because they can do it doesn't mean no one saw it. Now there's a huge Mix-wide RP hunting down the dumb motherbaka that went around slashing tires.

How is the whole mix chasing the guy if no GMs were online to puppet that response and no players happened to be in the room?
There are a LOT of jobs in the game that don't give you shit for RP outside of what you make for yourself. Mechanics have a ton of advantages. I don't think that the complaints that mechanics need more to do is particularly valid in light of above.

More ability to trash people's rides is a terrible solution to the problem of mechanics not having a lot of work.

As for wheels needing some love... are we really sure that they do need love? I could see there being a few quality of life improvements that could bring them in line with other vehicles. They offer a lot of benefits for a decent amount of risk.

I'd do the following:

1) Add toll lanes in the tubes. Want to get there fast in rush hour? Pad NT's bottom line.

2) Make it easier to swap plates with someone else's car. Someone giving you problems? Stick your tag on some other chums whip.

I think a few light tweaks is all it would take to get cars in line with bikes and AV's in terms of overall usefulness. I'd maybe also suggest dropping the price a small amount so they don't directly compete with AV's on some pricing.

No one is saying mechanic skills/archetypes don't need love. I just don't think damage is the solution. Wear and tear over time, maybe, but even then, I'd prefer the idea of a buff that fades over time.

Or even having a preventative tuning buff that sets some kind of maintenance level on your vehicle and prevents catastrophic part failures. You can either pay the mechanic for the buff or roll the dice and have to get a new part installed or a repair done when your negligence catches up with you. I think these are more the types of ideas that would integrate with the game better.

A) xhelp before smash prompt.

B) there are timestamped server logs, GMs can retroactively puppet.

Y'know I'd agree with the dirt and other factors being a good system.

Maybe with potential part damage(Rust, gunk in lines, etc,) if you REALLY let it sit idle for a long time.

It's a good idea, not denying that, but it would take a lot of programmer resources to implement.

Your excuse of "But the trolls," for avoiding allowing vehicles to be damaged by anything short of an IED, is rather funny.

My question becomes this though... In regards to trolling and vehicle damage... Why not just implement a system where vehicles can't be damaged(without GM hitting a toggle) beyond a certain point.(Let's call it till disabled, or even like half repair on the parts) If it's owner is offline.

Boom.

No more three AM every tire in the mix is popped because GM's were offline. Hell, maybe just make it like VEHICLE THEFT and TOPSIDE CRIME, and make it Require GM approval.

That seems to have worked for those moderately well.

In addition to Crooknose's ideas, which I 100% agree with and have no disagreements because I wanna laugh at your dirty ass Katana 250 that you don't maintain in mint condition, I think cosmetics like it was suggested prior would be really funny and also another way to just put yourself out there as a badass motherfucker.

Like Grizzly said. Hydraulics, sound system. Turn your car into a lowrider or add some handlebars to your bike and lengthen the exhaust pipes and make it look proper Harley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg_KZQ7k3kI

Also. This would be a funny but easy addition... custom horns like Progias that are installed by mechanics

but no godfather theme

also...

like I said earlier in the thread, doing anything to another vehicle in the Mix -and- topside already does require xhelping prior and receiving GM approval. that's already a thing

Why are we so hyperfocused on damaging vehicles? Again, if you're the mechanic, you now have a huge incentive to hire people to damage vehicles left and right then wait for people to come to you for repairs. It's a pretty obvious racket. But, none of that will matter, because what will happen instead is, everyone will park in a garage, sucking money from the player economy.

You won't have a fender to kick because there will be no fenders.

Right but that takes gear, skill, and some mechanics knowledge so there's a barrier to entry. If you could just wail on a car with whatever weapon you could get your hands on then absolutely everyone would have access to shittery.
@Crooknose

And as long as the garages aren't lockers, that leads to more RP...

And as long as vehicles wear from use, that leads to more RP..

Solution: Car insurance.

New Job: Insurance Adjuster (Enforcer Archtype)

Is there really enough active vehicles to justify further depth in what is already a decently complex sub-system? I'm pretty sure I know just about every active vehicle plate number off by heart, and there doesn't seem to be very many at all.
Everyone buys bikes because outside of specific circumstances where cars are WAY better, bikes are a hundred times more convenient and cheaper.
@0x1mm

Why do you think active vehicles are rare?

I mean do these things really lead to more RP for mechanics, or just more work for mechanics? I've known doctors/medics who turned every injury and consult into an RP experience and I've known doctors and medics who just take their chy, heal you and get on with their day. It's really people choosing to create RP that creates RP.

I met a mechanic semi-recently who, despite being an immy, came up with a whole scheme that I obviously won't detail but that did create some mechanic related RP for them and some RP for my character as well.

I think what we're really asking for here is a maintenance treadmill that will get more work for mechanics which gives them more opportunities to make flash, meet clients, etc, and a lot of that can be done without inconveniencing people who just want a vehicle to travel with, which is already an expensive and risky proposition.

You can probably already damage a car with a baseball bat or something, you just need to xhelp with things like that and if it's reasonable and you have a reason for doing it there's a good chance you'll get help with it. I feel like the other urge I hear here is, "I don't want to justify it, I just want to be able to damage people's cars." How come? Because it's a less risky move that can cost someone else without exposing you to much danger?

B) there are timestamped server logs, GMs can retroactively puppet.

I do not have access to this, nor do the other GM's. And none of us want to retroactively puppet NPC's to play cleanup, that's not how it works.

Because the pipe peasant hasn't worked as hard as them to get where they are... XXXXXX.

:P

(Edited by Johnny at 5:53 pm on 3/5/2020)

Just a last note here, you guys are aware that if you want to do any sort of damage to a vehicle, you can just xhelp and RP it right?
A lot of people feel a bit of discomfort in terms of going to that effort Storm, either out of modesty(I'm not worth that time for something this petty.), or out of a fear of rejection(They'll just say no it's too petty.)

And while yes, that is an option, it's clearly not something that occurs to most people.

A lot of people feel a bit of discomfort in terms of going to that effort Storm, either out of modesty(I'm not worth that time for something this petty.), or out of a fear of rejection(They'll just say no it's too petty.)

And while yes, that is an option, it's clearly not something that occurs to most people.

@Storm

Things went a bit off the rails, the damage to vehicles was a pretty minor aspect of this all...

There's a lot of ass-backwards thinking going on in this thread, some constructive ideas, and then some stuff that is wildly off-base. The entire thread really reeks of solutions looking for problems.

There's some QOL improvements that could go into car lyfe. I think we've established that.

This idea that we need more non-interactive RP options just to drive very specific careers is total nonsense. We have the ability to trash rides right now. It's called xhelp and RP. As I said before- there are a lot of careers in the game with far less coded support and special abilities than mechanics have, and we're not making enormous threads over it.

I don't think that kind of comparison is very valid, Eph, as they're entirely different situations.
It really was, it became a main arguing point...

Personally I like the idea of adding more ways being added to damage or force maintenance them in ANY way.

Weather, rust, hell, maybe an oil change every so often. For bikes a carburetor tune up, or just general maintenance that would aggravate driving checks and make them harder and eventually force the issue of taking them to the mechanic.

A good point XXXXXX, and one I agree with.

(Edited by Johnny at 5:54 pm on 3/5/2020)

The difference between attacking a chromed up solo that's walking around and attacking a vehicle while that chromed up solo is offline, is obviously that the chromed up solo can only defend their property in one of those situations.

There is a reason you can't kill sleepers.

Maybe it's because this way the game is more balanced, the staff can overwatch things and deal with it BEFORE they happen rather than dealing with the consequences of a player who decided to break the rules.. and it lets coders work on more important stuff like things that require the most attention instead of just 'damage vehicle' mechanics with various code safechecks?
We have mechanics in place to stop sleepers from being killed but I've seen players circumvent that code to kill sleepers before. It happens. I don't really think the GMs are complaining about having to be xhelped and they'd rather babysit someone doing it rather than have someone abuse a mechanic when they're offline and have to deal with every consequence of that rulebreak/mechanic abuse hours later when they log on.
To reiterate again, it's a game balance issue.

Also, I presented numerous ideas that were in line with what RedSteelButterfly is asking for that don't involve damaging vehicles.

Outside the lens of "mechanics need more RP" which, again, there are a bunch of other solutions for, I'm actually still unclear about why people are arguing for vehicle damage so vehemently. What I'm hearing is, "I want to be able to damage people's cars, because I want to."

Multiple people and now a GM say, you can do that by xhelping, and the response is that it's too much. You want to casually and without a big fuss damage people's vehicles, sans oversight. I'm still not getting the rationale for why that's a good change, besides "I want to do it so it should be codedly available."

And you can rob the contents of a car in the same way as a sleeping person, which is the apt comparison.
You realize that if you xhelp a GM about it, you'll get the RP you're looking for, right? The world will react in a realistic way. Or is that more the fear?
I believe Eph's point was that it could be codedly enforced that you could damage vehicles limitedly, the way we have other code-enforced limitations that people have no issues with, that takes the load off of GMs' plates.

I think there are few vehicles because of cost-to-value ratio not because there aren't many mechanics.

If you aren't playing a gearhead because the archetype doesn't have enough to do but playing a gearhead character sounds like what you really want to do LOL plz go fucking do it anyway and get in line

My lovelies,

To get back on track a bit...what can we do to make using vehicles of all types more attractive to the playerbase, while making them -not- be impenetrable bubbles that someone with six days worth of UE can drive at a pace that will never require maintenance?

All the answers are already here.

Let's maybe kinda backburner vehicle damage a little since people can't handle it.

Introduce even a very basic 'maintenance' system. Sure, make it very forgiving even, so it has to take quite a very long time before a full breakdown occurs. It can be as simple to start as some kind of build-in numeric value, like a basic vehicle 'health' value only deducible by those with the right skills and tools, that runs down over time as the vehicle travels.

Re-grade all vehicles so that newer model years degrade 'maintenance' more slowly, just like IRL (more or less), and cost more, of course. Older model years degrade more quickly, and perhaps even can critically roll some kind of rare chance at just breaking down, just like IRL.

This allows for cheaper vehicles, making them more accessible (but with clear downsides). And it gives mechanics a lot more to do.

@jameson

Are you suggesting that the corporations that manufacture the cars would engineer in an expiration date just to sell more cars? And that it would take a skilled mechanic to bypass such a feature?

How wonderfully corporate.

"The fear is wanting or needing to do something NOW and xhelping and getting no response for 30+ minutes because the GMs are often very taxed and trying to supplant mechanical inadequacies for a game which has 40+ people playing in it."

When that happens to me I go find something else to do. That means I can't take advantage of every single opportunity every single time but I'd rather get a thematically appropriate and adequately challenging response than not.

@Red vehicles are not impenetrable bubbles. It was said already multiple times in this topic, but clearly needs to be said again. It is especially true for bikes, driving which can very easily cost you 50k+ if someone wants to make it so. And there is very little (nothing, I am quite sure) that you, as the driver, can do about it.

Tell me how the option to, in an instant, lose ~50k is a risk-free bubble?

@Jameson

I don't know about regrading vehicles based on their manufactury date considering some vehicles are just described as being manufactured in 2089, so you'd be giving the players that bought a specific type of vehicle a disadvantage just over a description even though there's no other option.

Also RedSteel, I don't know where you got the idea that someone with six days worth of UE can drive a vehicle even at the slowest pace with no risk of damage.

That is just not true.

@marleen

So you can harm the driver of that cargo van that just drove up and kidnapped your chummer with current mechanics?

I'm not going to go into IC details, but they are NOT safe bubbles as you describe them. That just isn't true.
Ranger,

Tough. Trade your clunker in if youve got the chy, if you don't keep driving and look schlubby like you should you sad junior. Everyone just gets an immaculate ride forever after a onetime purchase with no maintenance? Fluffy bunny driving simulator?

The suggestion also obviously presumes a certain degree of latitude on staff's end w/r/t possible grace periods, chyen adjustments, generous one time trade in values if such a system were implemented....they could absorb player tears a dozen ways.

No, Jameson, I'm talking about some of the more expensive vehicles being 'old' like in your post. What are they gonna do, make me trade my more expensive vehicle in for a new one? Make a new type of vehicle?
That's how vehicles work? Yeah? Or pay to maintain it? What's the issue?

Are you upset Joe Suit's Ferrari might be slightly more expensive to maintain or something? Welcome to the world of owning a sweet ride, what do you want me to tell you.

If some retroactive scuffwork to iron out was a holdback to new systems we'd never implement anything new.

I don't think you understand what I mean.

Let's say vehicle A is 'old' from what you're suggesting, but it costs 500K chyen.

Vehicle B's desc says it is 2100 manufactured but it costs 250K chyen as it is.

Why would either of them cost more to maintain? There is literally no other tiered breakdown in the game right now when it comes to weapons. Why do you suddenly want one for cars that have flavour descriptions?

On maintenance issue, my view is: is it going to make owning vehicles more fun, or more annoying? Right now owning a vehicle helps you to handle IC chores much faster, leaving more time for RP, and also helps you to facilitate RP in a few ways, including getting from A to B a lot faster.

On the other end, it comes at significant risk (especially with bikes) and very high up-front cost. Having to now also maintain those vehicles kinda counters their utility (you will have to spend time trying to arrange RP time with a player mechanic) adds 2nd operating cost besides ethicol and overall adds pain to owning a vehicle, and the only upside I can see will be more mechanics RP. So... meh?

I just don't understand your logic of 'flavor desc should affect the cost of maintenance', Jameson. It just makes zero sense.
Maintenance cost should be reflective of vehicle type and 'tier'. A Ferrari costs a LOT more to maintain than a Civic.

Sports Car > Basic Coupe > Bikes

It can be pretty logical. We don't have very many kinds of vehicles. Vehicle age / type makes for a pretty basic 'formula' in deciding what a mechanic would need to charge to 'tune up' a car. One might cost more because it's older. It might also cost more because it's an expensive sports car. One of the selling points of a Civic is literally that it's cheap to maintain. What about that doesn't make sense to you?

I'm not talking about weapon tiering because that's not the topic.

I'd love more vehicle 'tiering' because it'd...you know, reflect tangible reality.

If you're treating vehicle descriptions only as 'flavour' your RP regarding them is flawed. There probably isn't very much RP regarding someone's vehicle 'tier' most of the time, something this would also help to address.

If you think vehicle price at current doesn't properly reflect their 'tiering' or value a Game Complaints thread would be appropriate.

I have no dog in this fight, it'd just be a neat system (I did play a mechanic once...created the Hayasa!). Yay for underrepresented archetypes getting some stuff to do. Yay for one more reason to get out and go do something with a player.

Then it'd make more sense to make the tiering based on the type of vehicle rather than... surprise surprise, year of manufacture?

I'm just saying that this 'vehicle age' has no effect on a mechanical level and it is indeed, for RP flavour. I don't know how that is flawed because a Koi being model 2089 or a Hayasa being model 2100 currently has no impact on a mechanical level. It's a description.

And I've seen people RP vehicle tiers before accordingly. This especially happens for bikes. But I haven't seen anyone call out 'haha your car is 20 years old, mine is a newer model!' because once again it doesn't change anything and the price of the old one can be more.

I think it's you that has a problem with vehicle tiering and you are the one that wants vehicle age to be reflected in such things. So maybe it should be you that makes a game complaint thread?

I mean, by that argument Marleen, guns should never jam.

All right, we can scrap the 'model year' thing because....just because.

We can flatten it for simplicity sake. But all vehicles should absolutely have some kind of 'maintenance' system, eventually, or there's basically no point in having mechanics in the game, unless by even long-term design they're only around to like...add aftermarket parts that are....well, FOIC.

And apparently to, I guess, fix GM-assisted vandalism once in a while?

zzzz

The thread has been growing as I'm reading, so if someone said this further down apologies. In line with what crooked was saying, and perhaps on top of, if we had a line of chrome options for cars it could play into an idea I've been trying to work into something worth mentioning but since this thread is here...

What about a UMC-style racing event? Especially interesting if we have vehicle chrome, perhaps AoE weapons that only effect other vehicles. Or maybe just towards a selected target like normal, a blinding flash of light to mess with another racer.

Just some thoughts.

Mechanics still have plenty of use in the game, I have no idea where do you get the notion that they aren't. Cars and vehicles crash, and get bombed. When a vehicle gets bombed, they can get 30k+ worth of work from that single incident alone. People also get upgrades for their rides, that requires a mechanic. Also getting cheaper parts than buying new is where mechanics shine.
I think that requires a LOT of work Errant. Cool idea but vehicle combat is just.. well, an entirely different scene.
Alright, 126 replies in less than 12 hours, but we're good mechs are fine. Sounds like they're living pretty flush actually, damn.

Thread over.

Please remember to be civil. I am seeing some of you getting heated and I'd rather avoid an insult match if we can. Focus on ideas and opinions and do not target the people behind them please.

Thank you.

Very true, Ranger. I'm less concerned about that part, just something I thought of as I was reading this thread. I think I remember hearing that vehicle combat was in the works but that was a 'at some point in the future' type of comment. My PC isn't someone who I could ever massage or fudge into creating something like that IC, but if other people wanted to? Or if my PC suddenly perms I'll give it a shot myself.
Driveby code please.

Much like being able to aim into a car, lemme aim out of one and blat blat at gangers while speeding down the street to my showtunes.

Alright, 126 replies in less than 12 hours, but we're good mechs are fine.

I think the amount of replies in this thread is because you have very vocal people whose ideas would nerf vehicles and equally vocal people who are arguing not to. Mechanics don't have much to do with it at this point.

There are lots of suggestions that could empower mechanics without nerfing vehicles. I feel like we'd have more consensus if we focused on those.

People have this notion that a single skillset and a coded job are supposed to provide you with hours of entertainment and that is not how Sindome works.

You see this a lot with decking, too. People sink mad UE into some niche thing and then complain when sitting in a room collecting a paycheck and only needing to actually do anything once in a blue moon turns out to be fun.

Your coded job is there to give you a place in the world. It isn't where the fun comes from. The fun comes from spying, stealing, extorting, blackmailing, and in general just trying to get by. There's no imperative that mechanics should have mechanic chores to do every day. That just makes it suck when there are no mechanics around.

Holy crap this is long thread. I just wanted to touch on one thing briefly. The reason there aren't more vehicles is because they have more @messages than probably any other object in the game. Creating an awesome vehicle takes time. The Hayasa for example was actually a somewhat unique player made vehicle that eventually got added to be purchased publicly.

I think giving PC's a IC vector to create more vehicles would be a worthwhile job and method to expand the vehicle variety. Even if it's just OOCly e-mailing a list of @messages to [email protected] upon completion.

Admittedly I threw up my virtual hands at tl;dr half way through the thread...

I did not see anyone mention the fact that there are plenty of OTHER vehicles in the game that are NOT owned by PCs, but not represented by actual objects.

It makes zero sense for a PC to decide to randomly vandalize another PCs' vehicle when odds are there are hundreds, if not thousands of other vehicles that they would come across first.

If a PC has enough IC reason to want to attack a specific vehicle belonging to another PC, then there should be enough justification there to warrant an xhelp or other GM request.

That makes quite a bit of sense phrased that way, Hek.

I'm still hoping one of you takes that race idea and runs with it...