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[Major Update] Corpse Changes
Corpses now behave much more like characters

Hey Everyone -

I've made some major updates to the way corpses work. There are a number of changes to go over, but in general, they act much more like 'characters' and less like dumb objects that contain loot you can magically see.

CORPSE NAMES ARE NOW SHORT DESCRIPTIONS

No longer will you see 'The lifeless remains of JoeBaka'. You will now see 'The lifeless remains of a shabby short dude'.

CORPSES HAVE TATTOOS & NAKEDS & CLOTHING

Corpses now act much like character objects do when it comes to looking at them. You will see the standard description that all corpses get (the one that degrades over time) and that will be followed by the clothing/tattoo/nakeds that you would see if the person were alive.

The clothing is 'worn' so it covers nakeds and tattoos. However, you do not need to STRIP the clothing, you can just take it, which will result in the naked/tattoo for that area being exposed. I thought about implementing strip but that honestly seems like a hassle from a game play perspective.

Over time as the corpse degrades you will no longer see @nakeds and tattoos. You will just see whatever clothing the corpse is wearing. This is because there isn't really an easy way to simulate the player written messages degrading that won't make life hell for screen readers.

CORPSES DO NOT SHOW YOU THEIR LOOT

Corpses no longer show you the loot they have on them just because you looked at them. You will have to FRISK the corpse just like you would a person. This is a dead person though so there is no chance you miss anything in your frisk.

OLD CORPSES ARE NOT BACKWARDS COMPATIBLE

For the next week or two, if you encounter a corpse it may be worthwhile to frisk it, as only new corpses will have the clothing/naked/tattoo matrix. This means they might have loot on them that you need to frisk for to actually see. Even if they died wearing their clothing, that won't have been copied over to their corpse.

LOOTABLE MESSAGE

If you look at a corpse and it contains something lootable, you will see a message about it. This is an indicator it hasn't been picked completely clean. I may remove this after a few weeks once people have gotten used to the changes.

BODY STICKERS

I forgot to mention body stickers are also shown. I don't know where/when these are used but I did make that code work as well.

Game changer. Nice.
Finally!
Finally!
Nice. <3
This is great!
Can't say I'm a fan of all the sleaze involuntary public access to @nakeds is likely to generate on pubSIC.
It'll help with the no-sell problem then maybe? lol.
I will remove groin and chest nakeds, there is no need to be sexualizing corpses. However 0x, that was a round about way of pointing out something I had not considered. New features aren't going to be perfect and coders can't think of everything. Next time, engage me in a discussion about the issue you see with a new feature, instead of just detracting. I promise I will listen :)
I know there’s been talk in the past (Town Halls, I think) about requiring chrome on a corpse to be uninstalled by a cyberdoctor (or someone with the bio_tech skill), as opposed to just lifting or 'ripping' chrome out of a corpse. Is this still on the cards?
This is fucking huge. I actually love it.
RedSteelButterfly: I do not understand your comment. My assumption is it was directed at 0x, if that was the case, it was unneeded. Please do not respond in that manner again. Read the BGBB etiquette post I made.

Adea: this is a step in that direction yep. It's on my list. Will be great for ripper docs. This laid the groundwork for that to be much easier.

Really love these changes and the prospect of future things jumping off of it. Thanks!
Can you stilll 'get all from corpse'?
Ex: for now yeah. I am going to monitor it and see if it needs to be changed at all.
Slither, I meant more as passive thoughts thrown into the gestalt rather than any pointed criticism, and certainly not at you, but I didn't phrase myself well at all. My apologies.
Forensics on the way to becoming viable really makes me happy, this is a change I love, especially needing to frisk corpses. Never felt right being able to 'window shop' a corpse.
CHEST & GROIN

I've blanked out the chest and groin nakeds.

Does that include chest tattoos? Tattoos on the chest are pretty common and useful for ID a lot of times I would say.
Does that include chest tattoos? Tattoos on the chest are pretty common and useful for ID a lot of times I would say.
This does not include tattoos at this time.
Sweet, thanks Slither. Love this change by the way.
I worked with a corpse yesterday that still had Chest and Groin nakeds.
It may not have updated yet, maybe it only applies to 'fresh' corpses.

One thing that is a little confusing to me however, is.. well, blanking chest nakeds on male bodies. They're usually not as sexualized (or considered as 'nude') as for females. I suppose in the end it doesn't matter though, not a *LOT* of characters would want to point out a corpse's privates. Maybe a few, but not many.

Honestly i'd rather the nakeds were left in. You don't want people to see your naked body? Don't type that @naked, or even just make it vague.
Same, I think. I don't think necrophiliac comments would put me off more than some lewd comments on SIC already do. Like that one Withmore fetish position that involves excrement......
@RSB,

There's characters who's entire career revolves around their chest and groin nakeds. It's not so black and white as "I don't want people to see me naked." I'd also point out that dicking around with nakeds as in "I'm a nun by day, and a stripper joy by night!" with your @nudes is hecka gamey. I know personally, I always try to maintain a continuity with my nakeds from one change to the other, and try to manage updates accordingly.

It's also just over that creepy barrier that I agree with Slither that we just don't need to have them on corpses. If you have 90% of the rest of the nudes, you should be able to tell who it is at a glace with or without said nakeds removed.

I honestly can see how it might get popular for people to go. 'Hey this dead chica had really nice tits, too bad they died'. It sounds like a thing people would say on SIC.
A naked body isn't inherently sexual, and by removing the nakeds, you're tactictly acknowledging that you (royal you) find it to be sexual. Just my opinion, but there's so much other fucked up shit going on in this game (the classic puritanical argument, violence is fine, but sex? NO!), that I can't agree with removing any nakeds from a corpse based on that.
A good compromise could be to have those nakeds disappear early in the rotting process.
@RSB I agree with you in concept, however if one thing is true, it's that Sindomers gonna Sindome. I really don't need the dome having 'let's talk about my character's dead, rotting genitals' hour on SIC. Because you KNOW that is precisely what is going to happen. And maybe that's themely and everything, but do we really need that to be someone's first impression walking in and hearing about how so and so's rotting dick is laughably over-sized?
Then we can as a community handle it ICly. Make it against code or something.
If that's not the first thing they hear, it might just be something else incredibly vile or laughable. It is public SIC after all.
@RSB Hey, fair enough. Might be a great RP experience for those rascally jake players out there.
Trying not to tread into IC knowledge here, but there are possible characters out there that are interested in talking about corpses in ways that others find uncomfortable. That, and cannibalism being present already sort of makes this logic redundant.
@RSB I agree that a naked body isn’t inherently sexual. However, many chest and groin nakeds are heavily sexualised by the players writing them. Sad as it is, I think it’s a case of the reality of the situation not being the same as the theory.
People comment on nude sleepers all the time. Is that pervy? Definitely. And who knows, that person might not want people to talk about them sexually, but they are unfortunately DC'ed and unable to notice.
Can anyone pull chrome out of dead bodies still or do you need a ripper doc to do it properly?
Anyone can do it still.

If they do make it ripper-exclusive, we're going to face some logistical challenges, to say the least. At least.. if the mechanics for chrome out of people are maintained as they are.

A naked body isn't inherently sexual, and by removing the nakeds, you're tactictly acknowledging that you (royal you) find it to be sexual. Just my opinion, but there's so much other fucked up shit going on in this game (the classic puritanical argument, violence is fine, but sex? NO!), that I can't agree with removing any nakeds from a corpse based on that.

Opposition to sexualization without consent is not puritanism.

This type of sexual harassment with sleeping characters already occurs.

It occurs with a lot of characters that aren't present when they're being talked about. There's not much to do about that, people sexualize things in Sindome. Telling someone they have a sexy looking ass is basically like complimenting someone's eyes, at this point.
I'm on the fence about removing the @nakeds. A few things to consider.

This is an ADULT oriented game. If the adult content that people see is characters talking about each other's junk on SIC, well then I guess that is what it is. We all know (mostly) what we signed up for.

If the threat of having @nakeds exposed encourages people to spend less time shacked up in apartments MOOsexing all day out of fear of those nakeds being out there for the world to see, is that really a bad thing?

Can we at least try to avoid the Western cliché of "violence good, sex bad"? That would be a great, and a huge step forward.

As for the change itself, it's great. Every time I look at a corpse, I find myself thinking, "I wish I knew who that was." It's total IC / OOC crossover, even if it's unintentional. Removing the @name is a great improvement.

This is an adult game, but people don't act like adults~
@Hek Fair.

@Beepboop Yes I wish people did do that more often...

@Beepboop,

You aren't wrong about that.

Is it that people don't act like adults? Or is it that too many adults haven't matured past adolescence?

Unfortunately Maturity does not scale linearly with Age.

It occurs with a lot of characters that aren't present when they're being talked about. There's not much to do about that, people sexualize things in Sindome. Telling someone they have a sexy looking ass is basically like complimenting someone's eyes, at this point.

There is exactly something to do about it, which has already been done. That you are personally comfortable with something does mean it ceases to be sexual harassment in other cases where players do not consent or are not comfortable with it.

Does not mean, excuse me.
are we really having the "but what if the solo sees my dick" argument
if you don't want someone seeing your @naked dangly bits just dont put them in there
The argument isn't 'sees genitalia' the argument is 'worried immature playerbase will sexualize genital @nakeds in any situation and makes it super uncomfortable OOCly when it isn't an imperative part of this new function.'

That seemed like a generalized comment on the playerbase on the whole, when it wasn't. Poorly worried on my part, sorry.
I'm not sure why this is even a discussion.

I've been playing this game for... Two years on and off now, and honestly - unfortunately there's a handful of players that are immature and would comment on body's chests and groin nakeds.

Yes, Withmoer is a brutal city yadda yadda. Does that mean that we should OOCly make the players of those characters that just died uncomfortable? No.

It's much the same of when you comment on some sleepers' naked and they later hear about it and get uncomfortable.

Then sleep with clothes on.
...Yes, because your clothes can't be fucking stripped when you're sleeping. Are you serious?
tbh im just gonna say it here

if youre sexualizing sleepers or corpses uhhh get a fucking hobby lmao that shit's sad

Then find somewhere safer to sleep, you are taking these risks sleeping in places you can get robbed.
Perhaps the discussion should be moved to another post in the appropriate section? It sounds like complaint town at this point. Since I'm here though, I think a lot players pick and choose what they are comfortable with when it comes to sexualizing things, but I think lines should be drawn between making fun of the lesbian harem and spending hours talking about someone's lumpy butt. I for one do not enjoy plots centered around moosex or asking a player to "get naked and do a lap" type of garbage. Just my opinion.

Good step forward.

Dude, if you're going to nitpick literally every argument against this just because you want to see people's dangly bits on a body, go ahead.

But I agree with Grizzly.

I don't dig how you're saying I want to see people naked without their consent ingame, man. I'm just saying there are ways to protect yourself.
Dani, there's no way to protect yourself when you're dead.

And blanking nudes is questionable behavior at the most generous.

man idk ive seen a few people put their ass description in their thigh @nakeds should we remove those too since apparently the game is populated by 12 year olds that go "hee hee ass" at every corpse/sleeper they see
if youre sexualizing sleepers or corpses uhhh get a fucking hobby lmao that shit's sad

And Rule 6 exists for many, many well-established reasons.

Sexual consent is a concept that must often be reiterated, or occasionally enforced.

@Baguette

If people do dumb shit on their nakeds, that's entirely different. For years in the game, you could not see full nudes on someone's corpse. This is a recent change, and I think the general consensus is that removing the naughty bits is maybe a good idea?

Once again, you are not going to be ID'ing people by the way their cock looks, so why does it matter at all if it's not included in the naked?

If you want to have kinky nudes and be a stripper, that's a choice. You don't get that agency when you're murdered, and that is really the essence of the discussion.

If you believe you or another player, or your characters, are being sexually harassed, report it. It is a rule for a reason, as you just said.
I do not much care for the fact that I would not be able to identify a corpse by name if I know that person.
I would also like to bring up that Rule 6 does not prohibit someone from seeing you naked whilst asleep. It prevents unwanted IC sexual physical interaction, and unwanted OOC advances.Nowhere in there does it state that you cannopt look at someone's nakeds without their permission. This is an ADULT game. Nudity will, and IS, a thing.
Dani -- the change to remove @chest and @groin has already been made. If you believe this is some serious violation of the mechanical coded purpose of the new corpse system, and that players have a right to see any other player's @nakeds without their consent, then by all means make that argument, but to what benefit that would serve anyone I am sure I do not know.
I'm talking about on sleepers, not corpses. I think I was distracted by another convo going on.
It prevents unwanted IC sexual physical interaction, and unwanted OOC advances.

Rule 6 implicitly disallows unwanted IC advances and sexual harassment by transitive property of Rule 6.B, whereby IC accusations of rape are forbidden because rape itself is forbidden, and IC accusations of unwanted sexual advances and sexual harassment are also forbidden -- if that harassment and unwanted advances were not also forbidden it would simply OOCly disallow victims of sexual harassment and unwanted advances to speak out, while still allowing the non-consensual behaviour to continue, which I'm quite certain was not the intent of that rule. Perhaps this could be clarified by staff at some point though.

This does not, as you say, disallow viewing character's @nakeds without their consent, but I see no reason to give more avenues to allow this, or what positive benefit it could advance to anyone, so I'm certainly appreciative of the changes made and for Slither's consideration in this case.

Are we really arguing about this?

I'd like to hear a coherent argument for why groin/chest nakeds are necessary that isn't "I want to see them."

They're not necessary. I'm shocked anyone thinks otherwise.

After speaking with the admin they made the case it was a slippery slope to remove these nakeds. I have returned them. It has been possible to view this on naked sleepers forever. If you find yourself uncomfortable with others reading these descriptions you can choose to not set them.
Thank you, Slither.

@Crooknose

Reason I wanted these to not be removed was for realism, and the fact many identifying factors can be related to the person's chest, especially if they were male. They might have scars, tattoos or maybe even their muscle build might be able to tell you something. I haven't moosexed on my two months old character yet, but he's had all his @nakeds filled since day 1, because of realism. Whether anyone sees my character nude or not, he's a person with all his parts and I accept the risk of nudity to happen. If someone starts to sexualize a corpse and people feel uncomfortable, they should xhelp as they do with other things that are inappropriate IC behavior.

Sorry for doublepost, but I wanted to correct myself. 'I haven't moosexed yet', by that I mean, I haven't even planned to. But I still want to know what my character looks like.

If someone gets turned on by just reading someone's @nakeds, especially someone you're not currently roleplaying with (someone asleep or dead), well, that is just ridiculous. Moosex is one thing, reading random @nakeds in a situation without context is another.

I'm going to step away from this conversation. Please keep our BGBB etiquette in mind when posting and keep this conversation civil and without malice.

0x / RedSteele: Johnny says I was reading too much into your posts and not giving you the benefit of the doubt that I've been telling others to give (best intentions). He is right. I apologize. In my zeal to bring additional civility to the BGBB I seem to be stressing myself out and looking for things where they don't exist.

Lets consider how real corpses are handled IRL. There are rules the first responders are supposed to follow. I don't know if these are laws, official protocols or just human decency, but we cover the body usually. Privacy and respect still matters to the deceased person's rights. This might be more important in a world with cloning.

So, we probably need more respectful IC protocols for handling a body. A coded means of covering a corpse? Perhaps making corpses able to handle 'wearing' the clothing the person died in? (this is complicated). Official body bags?

Human Decency sounds like a topside feature. In which case, WCS should continue prioritizing corpse clean up on those sectors as they do now.

I feel a lot of these issues discussed stem from where we are at as a community and is an opportunity to grow.

...but a IC way to anonymize corpses utilized by clandestine agents and such would definitely be theme appropriate.

I'd like a way to cover them. Sleepers too.

Some sort of plastic tarp or something we can pull back?

And then I think if they start rotting, they should give off horrible diseases if left uncovered... or at least add an overwhelming stink to the room and make you gaggy.

Too much? :x

In gold or Green or Blue, I think it would be totally believable that SOMEONE would respond to a death quickly enough and care about the persons privacy enough to cover them in some way. This would be simply done with just having an NPC type with a lot of genetek jumpsuits or sheets on their inventory.

In the mix, I doubt anyone would care enough to do this, you'd more likely to catch several hundred people stepping over a corpse until finally some immy who still has a heart takes them and covers them up, or moves them and reports them. In My opinion at least...

Nakeds aren't inherently sexual and haven't been for twenty years. You don't need to write a paragraph that is personally upsetting to you on your own character. We don't need to cover sleepers no one cares about them.
The only thing we need to change about Sleepers is being able to chute them. hehe But we're talking about corpses I thought?
Same difference.
Curious. Is there no middle-ground in blanking the @groin but keeping the groin tattoo/biomod? Identification is one thing, enabling avenues to sexualize corpses is another.

If sexualizing corpses should be a thing, then sure, I can understand why methods to enable it are made available.

I think phrasing it like "the mix" and "topside" is too general in this case. In general, do mixers give a shit or have decency enough to cover a body? Probably not. Are there still people in the mix that DO care? Absolutely.

Are there topsiders who couldn't care less if some mixer scum is shot dead in front of NLM and stripped? Definitely. There are also bound to be some up top who A. Have some modicum of universal human decency, or B. Want to uphold the image of high society, and some lowlife leech lying in the street is just unsightly. Cover it up.

I like the idea of body bags or tarps in the mix and topside. I could even see it as a way to flesh out a character's social/moral values. Maybe WCS doesn't see the need to waste money on bagging corpses, but WCS worker X goes out of his/her way to buy them from their own pockets because it's important to that individual.

Bagging makes sense for WCS. It's not pretty dragging a mangled corpse through gold getting blood and viscera everywhere. Contain it, sanitation is your duty!
I think body bags would be a great addition for both flavor and containing disease and such.
Let's all agree on body bags!
I have never seen anyone sexualize a corpse in Sindome. They barely do it to living naked people. I think it's a mischaracterization to act like it's some rampant issue.
Body bags could also create a different kind of privacy. The paydata kind.
I think I saw a WCS bodybag or maybe trashbag in-game once. So maybe it is already in place, but not overly used. I've never played in a WCS career, but I feel like bodybags are cheap and expendable enough that it is something the city would be willing to expend. WCS is City Services after all. Dragging a body around on Red is 'meh', but dragging one topside? People will understand if you're wearing a WCS uniform, but they'll still be alarmed.
Sorry to doublepost, again- I should really wait to get all my thoughts through, but heck.

Bodybags could also help make corpse identifying more of a 'paydata' than it already may be. With this new update, I'm sure forensics will get more benefits/features, too. But hey, put a body in a bodybag and you prevent everyone you pass by knowing who died. That might be worth something to someone, at some point.

There is no point in giving WCS body bags. By the time they get to the corpse, they are going to clean it up and dispose of it. Having to bag the corpse just creates unnecessary extra steps and database bloat for all the bag objects.

From what I have read in this thread, there are one or two people who seem to have issues with how sleepers and corpses have been sexualized in the past. The large majority of players do not seem to care one way or the other.

Given that, I think the "solution" here is to leave the system in place and xhelp if other players are squicking you and breaking the Rules regarding impermissible RP.

While there might be a small handful of children in adult bodies playing here, I think the large majority of the player base can deal with this in a mature manner. For those that can't, there are admins who can deal with them. I am just guessing here but I think when presented with the choice between "growing up" and "getting banned", they will make the more mature choice.

But there is opportunity for paydata. And I don't know... seeing some guy in overalls carry a dead body past your office topside is just disgusting, you know? From an IC perspective for a topsider.
There's an idea thread for bodybags now. Pls discuss over there.
It looks like corpse nakeds don't show up in photographs of the corpse.
Graffiti cannot be cleaned off corpses with solvent and it completely hides every naked it covers, meaning for about 2000c with no skill you can silently make a corpse almost completely unidentifiable without tech. Compare that to the cost, noise, and difficulty of doing it with fire.

We should be able to clean 'em up!

I think when I asked if we could or could not, it was said that it's being worked on :)
Vera, that is not true exactly. It covers 3 nakeds none of which are above the shoulders,. Also, I have intentionally left it impossible to remove to better support forensics.
I see now. I was running into a combination of factors that I can't get into here that had me scratching my head.
I don't have an easy way to double check this but it would appear that biomods disappear from a corpse, which could potentially lead to some IC confusion.
Chest and groin @nakeds aren't being blanked on corpses in my experience.
The change was reverted @waddle.