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Grapple and you
When you don't just grab yourself...

So I discovered that grapple didn't actually utilize any kind of skill or stat in a straight grapple. Fun huh?

I have since attempted to fix the issue. If you feel like you'd like to test it... let me know. I may need to do a bit of refactoring somewhere. So xhelp it. If you and another player want to go at it, cool. Just make it OOC. Record the results. Let me know and we can work out a way for you to get them to me.

Anyone could grapple anyone before... I just want to make sure its not too hard.

One word of warning. If someone is sitting down, they are instantly grappled. No stat check required.

That is all.

Seems to be working okay as of last night...albeit I haven't seen anyone fail a grapple attempt in a while but resist definetly works.

Sleepers should have no check either... Easyer to drag them out of your place of business.

I have experieced a couple of problems with the grappling system which were... interesting. I was fighting someone, and I dodged every single one of their attacks. I was continually dodging them and I dodged there attacks two or three times. So, he grappled me, and drug me around for a little biut and then let me go and attacked me again. When he attacked me I dodged all of his attacks again, and this time it was 4 or 5 times I dodged it and he grappled me again. I dont know if it is an error or not, but if I dodge every single one of his attacks, isnt it only logical that I also dodge his grapples at least once?

That would have to do with the skills both of you have in whatever weapons were being used, I would think.

Well, I dont want to break any IC/OOC barriers, but I think the weapons or lack there of could have helped very very little... btu I dont know.

I fixed the grapple bug that was occuring when what you grappled was not a character (e.g. - a corpse). This bug was introduced by the addition of motorcycles and should be resolved now.

How the heck did motorcycles affect grapple of objects?

Okay so...this ties in to the other thread I just posted in. Is there no skill/stat check for Grapple? What about Resist (strength right?).

And is this still true about insta-grapple if the person is sitting? Bet that is a great bit of info for RP, especially if you're a Judge or TERRA (making people go prone or to their knees before cuffing/grappling them?) but can also probably be used in shitty ways like grabbing people who are sitting at a bar.

I don't know how motorcycles were implemented in the end, but I'd hazard a guess that it involves the same code used to grapple/drag something. ie the player and vehicle are linked in the same way as two players are during a grapple and as you ride, one object moves and the other is "dragged" along with it. (Least that's how I'd planned to do it and what I'd read into there being a bug caused by it)

Motorcycle are massively botched...last I recall. The result of grappling someone riding one strikes me as the traceback from hell.

Fun, fun. Shame I never got to have a crack at rideables... had plans for motorbikes, various pedal vehicles, skateboards, pogo-sticks... etc. (Actually, I did get a system done on my own MOO, but the code is long since lost to the ether.)

There's alot of possibilities there, the code just wasn't completed or integrated into the working vehicle code. SD is hurting for a code these days, methinks.

I don't know if you could really say it's hurting for code, if anything there's more there than a small player base could ever really justify. I'd suggest any lack of development is more likely a symptom of poor M* health than a cause.

I've always said story > code. GM activity stimulates player activity/retention which in turn justifies time on new features/code. In pen/paper terms, players favour the better GM, not the one with the most source books and expansions.

(No intended slight on SD or current admin intended, I'm too out of the loop to have a valid opinion on what is or isn't being done, purely a reflection on general RPG health.)

Bikes were a project that an admin created and were ported in from another MOO. While the code is sound and functional, it's also different and standing alone from our current vehicle code. So many of the checks already in place for our vehicle code are not being applied to the bikes. All of it needs to be gone through and updated. That's basically the situation there.

Rastus is right that the MOO isn't hurting for code.. a coder? Yes. We could do with one, as our current active admin have come up with quite a few new ideas and fixes, but we aren't able to implement a lot of them. I do what I can, but I'm definitely not as experienced as some of the other guys and they haven't really been around for months.

Story definitely is greater than code. The code is merely there to assist the players and GMs. When SD first started and we were in alpha testing, there was barely anything around to play with and we didn't have nearly the amount of rooms to explore, NPCs to interact with or objects to play with. We did have a good amount of players who were on regularly and RPing though, despite the lack of coded stuff.

We're getting a bit off topic here though. The original thread was concerning the grapple code and Lena revived it to ask some questions, so I'll touch on that now. I have no idea how motorcycle affected the grapple code. That happened 2 and a half years ago and Johnny said he'd fixed it. You'd have to ask him.

There is a stat and skill check for grapple and stat check for resist. These should also be taken into account for sitting, although this may not be the case. I just did some testing and wasn't seeing the result I should have.

(Edited by FireStorm at 11:01 pm on Sep. 22, 2010)

Grapple while sitting was intentionally left as auto-success when I (re)coded it yonks back. There wasn't a mechanism at the time to "trust" someone to grapple and it was something people wanted, so as a quick fix sitting was left open as a way to submit to being grappled.

I think there was also some debate as to whether a sitter should be allowed to dodge a grapple in the first place, so the logic became that a prone target would always be grappled and removed from their seat, and then would have the option to resist and break free if the grappler was weaker. (ie, skinny nerd grabs bruiser by the collar, bruiser gets out of his seat and bats nerd off). It  might not be 100% realistic, but it covered the bases without an unnecessary number of conditional modifiers and such.

On a side note, I'm surprised by Wren's initial post saying grapple had no skill/stat checks. Bishop's original grapple code had all kinds of problems and conflicts with other stuff, combat, movement, grappled players ending up in a different location to their grappler leaving both unable to move... crazy shit. I fixed all that, surprised I missed the lack of stat checks... and I'm pretty confused as to what it was using? Success/fail was being determined somehow and distinctly remember different chars having different success/fail rates relative to various targets which suggests there was some kind of modifier.Slither

Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?

There seemed to be something that was removed and this has come up today in OOC.

Discuss grappling here.

Salvatore wrote in 2006:

I have experieced a couple of problems with the grappling system which were... interesting. I was fighting someone, and I dodged every single one of their attacks. I was continually dodging them and I dodged there attacks two or three times. So, he grappled me, and drug me around for a little biut and then let me go and attacked me again. When he attacked me I dodged all of his attacks again, and this time it was 4 or 5 times I dodged it and he grappled me again. I dont know if it is an error or not, but if I dodge every single one of his attacks, isnt it only logical that I also dodge his grapples at least once?

I find it strange that someone who practices and can avoid punches, etc., cannot avoid a person that instead of coming at you with a closed fist or fancy attack, comes at you to wrap their arm around your neck (or other place RP'd) to choke you.

I am not referring to getting out of the grapple, but to avoid it in the 1st place.

I have received countering information from two different GM's and I admit, it is confusing. I'm not going to post it unless asked because it deals with mechanics though the xhelp conversation is vague (and I do have copies of the xhelp question and the other conversation). With one conversation, it came down to that it was stat based only (I was given this thread and told there was a GM response January 2015, but when I looked at this thread, the GM and I found out the post was removed) and in another conversation, I was informed my thinking on wouldn't someone be able to see it coming and maybe avoid it, that I was on the right track and there were other factors to take into account.

I think the main problem is that the skills Brawling, Martial Arts and Dodge all deal with combat and the moves you can do in combat, and Grapple is something that can be done outside of combat without initiating combat at all. (But then if someone desires it, they can start "attacking" you and choking you out.)

I don't think a new grapple skill needs to be created like someone suggested in OOC but, something that already exists maybe can be looked at?

I know this is an RP game but sometimes combat happens. And balances are needed.

There are some characters who are not combat characters and just want to not get grappled and get the hell out of Dodge. (And I'm still trying to figure this out near a year later.) :D

This isn't quite a repost but....

Personally, I think grappling in combat should allow someone to make a free attack against them. I think it'd make things at least a little more even if you could get a hit in before they grabbed you.

Proceed...

mu ha ha

@Tricky

I'm not being devil's advocate here but I don't agree with a free attack on someone that is grappling you in combat.

There are factors like a person's ability to deliver an attack to a grappling person to take into account as well as how tired they may or may not be.

This isn't D&D where you do get an attack on someone who is trying to grapple you. In D&D, the characters are very skilled (even at level 1), it is usually high fantasy, and there are still other factors taken into account.

However, depending on your own know how to see it coming and know or not know what to do should definitely have something to do with it (and might already?). Maybe you could get in something before their grapple attack and maybe that would even stop them from grappling you? That is in combat you're referring to.

What about outside combat though?

Xooc sparked up a little today about grapple and so I thought I would take this opportunity to explain some concerns and try to suggest how those concerns might be addressed in a helpful and constructive manner. Please do not take it to be a moan, it isn't intended as such. I -really- enjoy sindome and everything it has to offer both myself and the other players in the community we are all part of.

*Hailfire sucks in a deep breath, steadies themselves, and begins*

I am in full agreement with salvatore and the general principle that skills should have some bearing on whether people can be grappled or not. I would also like to see some more diversification of what people can do whilst -in- grapples to either get out or at least provide some kind of tangible nuisance to their attacker that might help free them.

Skills really should get some bearing on whether you can be grappled or not alongside stats as happens with almost every other action in game (as far as I know, please correct me if I am wrong). Doing it with stats alone may be simpler but as Salvatore, GlassSuitJacketMan (on xooc) and TheCraftyDragon have pointed out before me skills like martial arts, brawling and dodge would have bearing too. After all, you can be as strong as you like but if the person just dodges your lumbering bear hug or uses your weight against you to throw you back from whence you came the grapple is unlikely to land.

At present I feel some additional means to escape or hinder grapplers from inside a hold would not go amiss as player options are extremely restricted once put in a hold and that this leads to some really really boring character deaths (from the player perspective). As things stand once held in a grapple your options are; wait for rescue, try to pose your way out, or resist successfully. The last of those listed options is even done automatically when under attack and thus completely removes the grappled player from the actual combat itself . Unless you manage to pose your way out the player themselves actually has no bearing on whether you live, die, etc from a grapple. My suggested solution for this would be the inclusion of grapple postures somewhat like those available in 'open' combat (i.e. bullets, blades and fists still flying around) to provide some variation for both the attacking and defending character in the grapple and thereby make things more interesting all round but all other suggestions are welcome (I have listed some example postures in the footnote at the bottom).

I think Thecraftydragon also raises an excellent point when they say grapples out of combat can be turned lethal before the defending player ever has a chance to protect themselves and again, more to do to escape or resist once in the grapple might relieve this niggle somewhat.

If you have read this far then THANK YOU for listening and I hope it has not been too great a chore to read through those great blocks of text. To quickly recover my views on grapple I think there should be more variation of combat inside grapples to help make things more interesting and involved for the player and I think skills should definitely be added to the roster of factors when a grapple is first being applied. Do you agree, disagree, have alternate suggestions? Why? Open discussion is the way forwards peeps! SINDOME FTW!

Footnote

Grapple postures

Defensive (i.e. peformed by the grappled character):

Resist: What we have in place already. The character tries with all the strength they possess to force out of the grapple.

Squirm: Rather than try to force their way out by feats of incredible strength the character tries to wriggle and writhe their way out of the hold.

Fight: The character doesn't even try to get out of the grapple, instead focussing their attentions on harming their attacker with whatever means they have available to them; donkey kicks, eye gouges, use of their weapons if they can get the arm free, etc.

Offensive postures (i.e performed by the grappling character)

I had ideas honest... then i forgot them.

@Hailfire

"After all, you can be as strong as you like but if the person just dodges your lumbering bear hug or uses your weight against you to throw you back from whence you came the grapple is unlikely to land."

Exactly. :)

Squirm - heh

It is hard to fight while grappled in real life. Usually when you can't fight, you are pinned on the ground but you can still wiggle and squirm. When sparring when I was younger and a friend pinned me, he had a hard time holding me down because I would squirm and he would have to adjust his hold to keep me down. I managed to 'squirm' and later do a fancy footwork attack to get out of another friend's hold too though that one we were standing. Mainly I worked on learning footwork and moves to avoid the attack in the first place.

And now I know some moves to get out of choke holds (gotta practice but I found out how easy it actually is to get out of those even if the guy is more than double my weight) but once again, that's training and skill that is being learned - like I mentioned in the previous post.

I have posed during a grapple before to ram my foot into the other person's in game but that is pose. I trusted the person on the other end to react accordingly and I think they did even though I didn't get their foot. ;)

I like the idea of being able to do something besides just a strength test to get out of someone's grasp. There might already be something but I haven't gotten a chance to grapple my grappler in a practice spar yet. ;)

I like the idea of somehow knowing where to sidestep an attack could help you. See, a grapple is an attack but it doesn't trigger combat. Unless the person types 'attack' right after.

In a way I understand that it doesn't trigger combat and agree. You can grab a hold of someone to turn them around and kiss them, or grab them and pull them away from the ledge, or you grab them and hug them. This is done sometimes so they don't leave the room while you pose your RP like a squeeze on the shoulder with a 'Good doing business with you.' No attack. (If you are even successful in the grapple attempt that is.)

I don't know how to balance this out.

And Hailfire? Your 'Fight' command is the offensive idea you had that I could tell?

There would be a penalty of course. You're grappled. Hard to fight well when grappled but it can be done. ...? (Lean back on the person grappling you and kick the two goons in front of you.) ;) Major negatives and luck needed.

Style over substance!

Thanks for the reply! I am Incredibly sleepy so for now I am just going to clarify a few things I meant by defensive and offensive and maybe come up with some example stances for the offensive side of things.

Offensive = You are the person who initiated the grapple and have the victim in your grasp.

Example stances:

-Choke: What we have in place already. The person squeezes your neck or curshes your lungs to the point you lose all your energy and eventually are rendered unconcious.

-Break: Rather than choke the person this stance focusses on bodily harm e.g. dislocation of joints and breaking of bones.

-Secure: No damage of any kind... just focussing on keeping the person locked in your grasp

Defensive = Someone has performed the grapple command on you and has you in their grasp.

-Fight further clarification = Ultimately this would likely only be useful against the person who has you in their hold. this would be useful perhaps you almost had them knocked out before they got hold of you and you think you might be able to knock them out before they can finish you off. Of course, as you mentioned, negatives would apply and it would be interesting to see some of the bruiser characters continuing to fight several characters even whilst someone hangs onto their back.

Oh I like Break and Secure ideas. Only thing is:

Break - this is a combat situation and actually falls under something else that isn't a grapple now that I think about it. A grapple is very specific.

Break also has some strength but really not that much. Momentum and twist here or there stretches, holds or breaks a joint. Fingers, shoulder popping out of place or breaking it, elbow, knees? These are not hard areas to truly injure. But like I mentioned, this falls under a different area and is already in place.

Secure. Already a grapple without 'attack' does Secure you so I'm not sure how else this would differ. Secure would definitely be more strength based. Sorry but if you're a weakling, no way will you be able to secure someone.

.

Choke isn't bad and it happens when you type 'attack'. It isn't bad when you don't kill the person and RP something after. That is or should be more frightening than if they did kill you.

-

Fight. Yea, this is good. You try to do some damage in hopes that the person releases you. If you land a good strike on the inside knee or groin, better chance to let you go with that knee strike. But should be possible.

Something other than just resisting.

Someone comes at you, you turn your head and move yourself to push their arm aside and maybe throw them into the wall or they stumble forward after you sidestep and let them go in that direction they were lunging toward in the first place. Of course, the thing is, that's skill. Knowing where to step and when. And of course seeing the lunge coming.

I wrote: Sorry but if you're a weakling, no way will you be able to secure someone.

I take that back. With the right skill and knowhow, the right joint lock WOULD secure someone. Not sure if that falls under grapple though but in a way, I can see it would. But once again, something like that is already in place in a way but under combat.

I remember seeing a UMC fight (not telling which) where I saw one person grapple the other, choke, release them, fight, grapple / choke again, release them, fight, rinse and repeat several times. Not a bad strategy in an anything goes way, but IC'ly there were rep consequences. Both positive and negative. It was interesting.

Now, the problem I read earlier in ooc was more in people, both in and out of combat, (mainly out?) suddenly being grappled and even if they know how to fight, there seemed to be nothing they could do about it.

Knowing how to fight in relation to the other person is something to consider and is taken into account in the game. Among other things.

Like I mentioned earlier, Brawling, Martial Arts & Dodge specifically mention "in combat" in the Help Skills file and the problem I see with Grapple is that it isn't combat but can turn into it in an instant and already it's too late. Sucks when there isn't good RP to go along with it, not bad when there IS RP that goes with it.

You practice and practice to get out of the way so you don't get grappled and it ends up seeming to be moot. I am not saying this is the case but I have two opposing pieces of information. I know mechanics aren't revealed but there should be a way to learn IC'ly like I was and have it be clear? Or clearer? Without all the nitty gritty mechanics being revealed.

Upon reading Hailfire's post a few times I have to say I have nothing to add and agree 100% with the post.

Actually yeah. Hallifires post does have pretty sound points. I've on several occasions wished I could take advantage of a PC's ..relatively squirmy body to wriggle out of a grapple.. or attack back, with say ..the pretty dangerous thing the PC is still holding sometimes.. or even just 'thrash' wildly.

Head, feet, arms, legs.. I don't care if you're holding me with your meaty arms I am going to try to bite you or like.. something. Not just flex my way free like I'm as manly as Chuck Norris.

I am actually not sure that I've ever figured out how to break a grapple.. I know it can be done I've seen it, but man.. that shit seems really hard to do from what I can tell.

Squirm & Fight! :)

(Might have to be a different command besides fight? Too close to attack maybe? So how about, Check? Because by fighting back, you are 'checking' the person's attack on you in some way. And that way, it doesn't get confused with the 'attack' command.)

What about avoiding being grappled in the first place?

Not sure.. but I feel like if the person attempting the grapple can't get close enough or isn't fast enough to disarm me / wrest the murder weapon from my evil hands they probably can't get close enough / are fast enough to wrap me up in their arms tenderly either.

I will try and make my thoughts succinct:

1) I believe Grapple should be balanced in this way to reflect the non-combat and combat:

- To initiate a grapple when PC is immobile/sleeping/sitting —> stat check only. i.e. Can you lift this person?

- To initiate a grapple when PC is not immobile —> stat + skill check. i.e. How skilful and able are the PCs at initiating a hold and avoiding that hold?

- Because grapple is an offensive (combat) action it should be dealt with like how other combat actions are. Successful dodge of a grapple attempt allows for a counter attack perhaps.

- Resisting grapple should be stat + skill check as well for the same reasons above. Freeing yourself from someone’s dominant position is not only a feat of strength but of skill as well. This is true of real life and I believe should be reflected in this case.

2) I am unsure if we should add another level of complexity to combat by introducing a Grapple specific subset of ’stances'.

The present commands available largely capture what has been described above.

Defensive Resist / Squirm - I do not see a difference here.

Defensive Fight - If you are being choked/grappled you are under control of someone else. Any ‘attack’ you manage is going to be largely ineffectual and may even worsen your situation. Hopefully not digressing, but in MMA competitions if a fighter is ‘being grappled’ they do not fight back, they try and get out of the choke/position.

Offensive choke/secure - Already present

Offensive break - No different than choke/grapple attack from a code level.

Grapple out of combat is still subject to the same rolls as inside combat, there is no 'out of combat grapple' I am not sure where you guys are getting this idea.

Grapple is used to extend RP in combat situations, since players have a habit of running away without emoting them fleeing the scene, grapple is using to prevent meta-ness in that fashion.

Also we're currently balancing grapple to pay more attention to fatigue and other things, but the roll always checks against a set of stats and skills no matter when it is used.

@Cerberus

Grapple out of combat is still subject to the same rolls as inside combat, there is no 'out of combat grapple' I am not sure where you guys are getting this idea.

I think we get this idea because the Help Skills list specifically reads "in combat" in the three combat related skills.

https://www.sindome.org/help/game/skills/

but the roll always checks against a set of stats and skills no matter when it is used.

No matter when. Good enough for me.

It was hard to be taught something IC'ly when I was getting countering information. One was that only one stat was used for both the attack and the avoiding being attacked & the 2nd, a fairly vague answer to a query that was basically your above answer.

Checks against set of stats & skills makes sense. Guess some of us will be looking for sensei's and sifus and boxers though, RP'ing out of it, even better. Hell, RPing and still not getting out of it, still fun.

I'm more than a few days old now! Now that I actually know what grappling is like...

And for the record, I don't know if an action can, or can not, use more than one skill or stat check at a time, or if you can weight them...

1) I feel like grappling uses the wrong skills and stats altogether.

When you initiate a grapple, it should be checking against your agility vs your opponents agility, plus a skill like martial arts or brawling in both checks.

When you're trying to break free of a grapple, you should be making a stat check of both strength and agility, with weight making strength more important, plus brawling or martial arts. Your agility should help you, but it shouldn't be as effective as being strong.

When someone is trying to break out of your grapple, it should have similar checks, although I feel like agility should be almost as important as strength is here. As your grip weakens from their attempts, you constantly shift into new positions to hold them still.

The moment you start trying to choke someone in combat, you should lose your agility rolls altogether. That doesn't mean strength should be worth more. You've got your talent for holding someone down in your brawling or your martial arts, and you've got strength to hold on, but the strength check should only be as valuable as it was in the first place. If 60% of strength and 40% of agility made up your stat checks before, you should only get skill + 0.6xStrength as your roll now. The reason being that, you can only choke someone by applying some kind of pressure to their neck. There isn't really room to readjust positioning.

There should be a bonus to grappling in the first place if you do it from hiding. Obvious reasoning is that you didn't see it coming. This would apply a penalty of some kind, reduced by the victim's perception.

2) I feel like -something- like this is the route to take. As it is, you are checking strength vs strength in a grapple. You can have the slowest person in the world easily catch the fastest person in the world because the slowest person has some muscle.

That muscle should be more important than your speed though once you've actually got your hands on your opponent.

Actually Stygian you are wrong.

Please share your opinion with evidence behind it. I said a lot, and definitely not all of it is wrong.

Flesh out your answer a little at least Killot.

@Stygian

The grapple system is being looked at, discussed, and worked on and is a topic for this Saturday's Town Hall Meeting. 6-9 Pacific Standard Time (which is Dome standard time).

As far as I know, it's against game rules, or at least the spirit, to discuss the coded specifics of how things work. Strength is not plainly a strength versus strength contest, though. In combat or out of combat.

Grappling, rather.