Login to post. Membership required.
I'm very annoyed. I've been warning people about the dangerous of just willy nilly killing their characters off when things don't go their way or they get bored and want a change for a long time.
Instead of coming up with IC ways to handle a potential direction shift for their character, or perhaps because they are so locked into the character that they can't imagine any situation where their character would ever be able to accomplish their (the players) OOC goal ICly because it would be just so very unthemely for their character.
Yet those same people that are concerned with not breaking the theme of their character give little to no regard for what their characters death will do to the people around them.
What happens to the perpetually helpful character who is always loaning money to new characters? She goes broke because those new characters kill themselves off before she gets back back.
What happens to the manager who spends his days hiring new immigrants who strangely happen to all kill themselves a few weeks into working for him? He gets an IC reputation for being a murderer because of OOC choices that were 100% out of his control.
This is unacceptable. If you are guilty of putting so little thought into the ending of your character that it OOCly effects the IC reputation of another player -- end it now before I become aware of it. You've been warned.
By Slither at May 17, 2014 10:42 PM
Hear hear. This needs to be read, this needs to be understood.
By Tadrakyn at May 17, 2014 10:47 PM
I'm going to presume (though it probably goes without saying) that setting up ICly so that when/if you die things go pearshaped for others ICly is still ok here?
ie; Have someone perm you whilst paying off people to bear false witness about whom the killer is if you have reason to do so?
By Gerik at May 17, 2014 10:47 PM
Yeah... I would assume so, because that is not the issue here at all. the issue is people killing off their characters out of boredom or mild frustration at OOC goals not being met etc etc.
By Tadrakyn at May 17, 2014 10:50 PM
That or people killing off their characters because they got in an IC situation they don't like.
By Xenode at May 17, 2014 10:51 PM
We are talking about peoples OOC decisions to suicide a few weeks in when they don't like how things are going, effecting other characters IC reputations because it's impossible to ignore a pattern like a bunch of suicides like that or explain it away ICly. Some players making the connection probably really think it's an IC connection.
That's the problem. It's not, but we can't tell them. The solution is for players to stop suiciding characters with zero thought and to instead take the time to RP their character into a situation where they are killed (by gangers perhaps) or just -leave- the city and die in the desert.
Not players ICly plotting against players, which is always welcome.
By Slither at May 17, 2014 10:53 PM
We are talking about peoples OOC decisions to suicide a few weeks in when they don't like how things are going, effecting other characters IC reputations because it's impossible to ignore a pattern like a bunch of suicides like that or explain it away ICly. Some players making the connection probably really think it's an IC connection.
That's the problem. It's not, but we can't tell them. The solution is for players to stop suiciding characters with zero thought and to instead take the time to RP their character into a situation where they are killed (by gangers perhaps) or just -leave- the city and die in the desert.
Not players ICly plotting against players, which is always welcome.
By Slither at May 17, 2014 10:53 PM
I think that's right, Tadrakyn. Gerik's idea is different to me.
As for the jumps, I find it annoying, and IC'ly upsetting. Death, especially suicides, shake people up. It is very upsetting and confusing to the people around you. Even to those the person didn't know. I know someone in real life who doesn't celebrate her birthday because she is convinced people die on her birthday. It is coincidental, but it has affected her way of thinking because it has happened once too often.
It does create an effect across the city. If there's a hiccup in life, there's always another way to go about something. Or to rebuild a rep, that can be a fun, RP possibility. Who knows where your character will go from there?
By thecraftydragon at May 17, 2014 10:58 PM
If someone's just a few weeks in, and they want their character to die for whatever reason, would it be fair for them to request staff assistance with making a 'clean' exit?
By TwistedAkai at May 17, 2014 11:09 PM
My understanding is that it's also possible to retire a character without literally killing them, as well - maybe whether or not you could do this could be made more clear?
By BattleJenkins at May 17, 2014 11:12 PM
Staff doesn't assist with that, its is the players responsibility to find an ic way to die, or as has been mentioned a few times, to icly leave the city and head into the desert and die.
By Sable at May 17, 2014 11:12 PM
Retirement is possible, but the situation we are discussing wouldn't meet the requirements for a retirement.
By Sable at May 17, 2014 11:13 PM
I've been lead to believe on more than one occasion over numerous years that if you wanted to make an appropriate exit staff would be happy to assist. I doubt that'd be appropriate for a character that was a couple of weeks old though, probably only appropriate for a character with a fair amount of history behind them for the admin to work with.
By Gerik at May 17, 2014 11:13 PM
Correct Gerik, rping out themely deaths has been done on a case by case basis, but it hasn't been for chars that have little to no time in the world. If we did this for every person who rerolled we wouldn't have time to do much else in game.
By Sable at May 17, 2014 11:17 PM
"If someone's just a few weeks in, and they want their character to die for whatever reason, would it be fair for them to request staff assistance with making a 'clean' exit?"No.
We get this kind of a lot, where players ask for GM help to retire characters because suicide isn't in character for the unwanted one.
I tell players to find a way - use your creativity to put them into a situation where murder is provoked, if that feels more suitable and you can't stand to break character. Or find another way - go out to the Badlands and die of exposure where no characters back in the Dome will ever know, which would preserve perceptions about your character's capacity for suicide. Or find another way - I don't know, "have an accident" or something - there are many hazards which kill the ignorant o a nearly weekly basis. If the character is unwanted, we're not very motivated to help you preserve whatever character-integrity you have for them. Just get rid of them, get over it, and re-roll. You'll never think about it again, I promise.
By Linekin at May 17, 2014 11:17 PM
Well, wouldn't it be possible to have the character discover they are needed elsewhere? For example, a lead they were tracking down lead elsewhere or perhaps they went on vacation, found the girl/guy of their current dreams and married them and stayed with them wherever that person is instead of coming back to the city?
There are many more options, to me, than killing off a character. People find new lives in new towns often. (just a thought.)
By thecraftydragon at May 17, 2014 11:17 PM
Well there we go. I like that option too, Linekin. Helps with others RP too.
By thecraftydragon at May 17, 2014 11:19 PM
@thecraftydragon Players do do that. They ICly tell all their PC buddies, "I'm leaving Withmore because of
." and then they xhelp to ask for "Will you now so I can start a new character?"See above.
I've seen it done. PC makes a reason for their permanent absence from Withmore/the game world, and then makes it happen with no one the wiser (body/bodies never found.). It's not that hard.
By Linekin at May 17, 2014 11:25 PM
Stupid html special characters.
@thecraftydragon Players do do that. They ICly tell all their PC buddies, "I'm leaving Withmore because of <new job/vacation/family emergency/arranged marriage/whatever>." and then they xhelp to ask for "Will you <kill me/void me/erase me> now so I can start a new character?"
See above.
I've seen it done. PC makes a reason for their permanent absence from Withmore/the game world, and then makes it happen with no one the wiser (body/bodies never found.). It's not that hard.
By Linekin at May 17, 2014 11:27 PM
I am actually surprised to hear people are setting concrete goals for their character at less than three weeks into playing them. When you create a character, if you're focusing more on creating an interesting back story, original speech patterns and behaviors, you probably shouldn't have enough time to be thinking about achieving long-term goals.
Setting goals in stone for your character when it's still practically a baby is setting yourself up for failure.
Just because you may want to work at VS or NLM or for certain be and live a corpie life, doesn't mean RP will flow that way, and the more effort and love you give your character development the more willing you'll find yourself to keep your character focused and adapting to unexpected developments. Not to mention, perseverance in the face of adversity is the best way to encounter some truly epic RP!
You have to really care about the character you're playing to avoid needlessly and irresponsibly throwing it away and effecting people around you without any respect for the effort and RP they've soaked into your character. So, please, think twice before putting a half thought through character into play.
At the very least, if for whatever reason you cannot comprehend continuing a character at least put some work and effort into bringing RP to a close like people have mentioned above. You'll find your efforts appreciated by others in the end even if they aren't sure about the details.
The quickest way to alienate players and staff alike is making them feel like you're a waste of time to invest RP/Support into. Trust me.
By Grok at May 18, 2014 12:08 AM
Good point. I still don't have a set goal for mine, but that does not keep me from enjoying the game any less.
By Tadrakyn at May 18, 2014 12:10 AM
The way Sindome is, it is constantly -very- dynamic. People who started out the low of the low in the Mix, RP that life for six months before catching a break and making it topside. People who have been topside the entire time they've been in Withmore, can have a falling out and be outcasted to the Red Sector and forced to make something of themself there. Killing your character off isn't your only option if you don't like the mold they are fitting.
I, myself, had a character, who upon creation, I set the -long- term goal of setting up a pawn shop that acted as a front to a underground gun store. Did my character ever achieve that goal, hell no. He started out fixer, then ended up being hired by the WJF. Complete 180, right? It is so easy to change direction with your character, if you just put in the time and the RP.
You don't like how people are viewing your character now, because it's not what you had envisioned for them? Tough shit. How would your character react to it? Just turn tail and run? Or would they find a way to earn back their reputation? Or maneuver things to make someone else look like the bad guy to get the focus off them self? RP through it, it's cyber punk, in a severely over-populated city. You -should- struggle. You -shouldn't- get what you want every time, or even half the time. How many of you are -exactly- where you want to be IRL? Treat Sindome like it's RL, RP it how your character would if it were RL, because to your character IT IS!
One of the main things to realize is this, and it seems it can't be said enough. Sindome is -NOT- a game you can -WIN-. It's not about the goals you set, it's about the RP found in the pursuit of those goals. If you can't handle when things don't go your way, maybe Sindome is not the game for you.
By Swashbuckler at May 18, 2014 5:04 AM
I agree that suiciding your characters is stupid and a bad response but I think people should be killing there characters.
Killing them to live.
Take bigger risks. Die crazy fuck off gloryful deaths by a million bulletholes knowing no ass was left unfucked and no friend not betrayed. Or be the hero, try to save the city only to come up against the sick twisted murdered who will rightfully destroy you. And hey, sometimes...you might succeed long enough have some crazy bastard ruin your day when you're on top.
By ReeferMadness at May 18, 2014 2:31 PM
Honestly whilst we're on the subject, I think it's important to note that the only reasons somebody might do this is because things aren't going their way; I've never suicide'd myself despite having played a characteristically suicidal character and when I was the -best- experiences I had were in the game were when they were being manipulated, maimed or whatever - I played for that shit. Still, eventually my interests waned.
I definitely agree though that uncharacteristically killing off a character is bad; the mess it leaves behind is terrible and I have personally been affected by it (though I won't say how). This thread is full of good suggestions and players should definitely take heed of them if they find themselves disenchanted with their character.
By Euclid at May 18, 2014 2:36 PM
I have a feeling that I am at least partly the subject of the original post, since I have two suicides in my history, one of which I maintain to have had IC aspects.
It's my opinion that, while exploring character concepts (especially when you're new), some will fit like a glove and some simply do not fit at all like you thought they would. I disagree that it's possible or IC for every character in this situation to suddenly and dramatically change unless they have some sort of mental illness.
I don't think it an evil thing to want to change it up if you're not having fun with your current character, if you feel that you've seen their story through, or that you've had enough of them and want to try something new. Happens all the time on other games.
That said, I do believe you have a responsibility to tie up any loose ends between yourself or the GMs before you make your exit, by whatever means that may be. It greatly softens the blow and makes the change less difficult for other players.
By Kuroyama at May 18, 2014 2:43 PM
Getting tired of a character for OOC reasons that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to escape IC conflicts or debts, and wanting to stop playing them and play a new one, is totally legitimate.
You just need to make use of IC methods available to you to achieve this.
We OOCly call this suicide but ICly it does not have to be roleplayed like a suicide or left for others to perceive as a suicide.
By Linekin at May 18, 2014 2:44 PM
As an addendum, I don't think suicide as an exit is appropriate for all or even some characters. It'd be preferable for them to have a less inexplicable route of exiting the game than jumping off of a skywalk or roaming out into the desert after effectively lying about heading to another city etc.
Could be something automated, like the vacation packages available, except you never come back once you take the ride out.
By Kuroyama at May 18, 2014 2:46 PM
I think the idea of saying that you're leaving to another town/job/etc and then walking out into the desert and dying is meant to be an OOC way of retiring a character but I could be wrong.
By Euclid at May 18, 2014 2:47 PM
There are many ways to achieve permadeath and get your unwanted character out of the way for a re-roll which don't look like or roleplay like an IC suicide.
By Linekin at May 18, 2014 2:47 PM
Getting tired of a character for OOC reasons that have nothing to do with OOCly wanting to escape IC conflicts or debts, and wanting to stop playing them and play a new one, is totally legitimate.That is a good thing to know. I've found myself in that position and have often felt the weight of being looked upon as someone abandoning a responsibility, even though the character's debts and responsibilities are neatly tied up.
By Kuroyama at May 18, 2014 2:52 PM
Slither's post wasn't about re-rolling.
It was about being irresponsible to your previous character's RP mates.
By Linekin at May 18, 2014 2:55 PM
Slither's post wasn't about re-rolling.It was about being irresponsible to your previous character's RP mates.
That's certainly understandable. It's what I was referring to above when I said that I did feel you have a responsibility to tie everything up first, between yourself and fellow players and (if necessary) anything the GMs may have had on their plate.
Mistake I've made in the past, but not one I allow in the present.
By Kuroyama at May 18, 2014 2:57 PM
I would like to know why GM haa not stepped in to deal with the in game nonsense that has occurred due to these people performing nonsense suicides. It is affecting an IG character that probably has nothing at ALL to do with this.
By IssacF at May 18, 2014 4:23 PM
I would like to know why GM haa not stepped in to deal with the in game nonsense that has occurred due to these people performing nonsense suicides. It is affecting an IG character that probably has nothing at ALL to do with this.I can speak from personal experience in saying that the GMs do pay attention to how suicides/retirements of characters are carried out, and they let you know when they're not happy about how you've gone about it.
Big part of why I changed my approach to the process.
By Kuroyama at May 18, 2014 4:25 PM
Yes but even Slither posted:
"Yet those same people that are concerned with not breaking the theme of their character give little to no regard for what their characters death will do to the people around them.
What happens to the perpetually helpful character who is always loaning money to new characters? She goes broke because those new characters kill themselves off before she gets back back.
What happens to the manager who spends his days hiring new immigrants who strangely happen to all kill themselves a few weeks into working for him? [Emphasis]He gets an IC reputation for being a murderer because of OOC choices that were 100% out of his control.[Emphasis]"
But I am still seeing this nonsense of this one player being accused and treated like some murderer.
If this is part of a Plot okay cool I can roll with it. But if it is not then this is a bit unfair to that player because he/she is being affected by people who are killing themselves willy nilly.
By IssacF at May 18, 2014 4:31 PM
That’s the thing though, you DON’T know what has happened and you’re supposed to find out in-game if it’s true or not, and even then. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. You also can’t assume we all know if someone was murdered or if the person just decided to kill off their character.
By Mew at May 18, 2014 4:43 PM
If it was plot related I can work with it. But if its caused by irresponsible gamers who just want to kill off their character without consequence why should the other person -pay- the consequences of these frivolous acts and -not- them pay for these frivolous acts?
By IssacF at May 18, 2014 4:57 PM
Because of the RP nature of the game we don't have much of a choice. Like Slither said; the problem is that the GMs can't tell us what the case really is and our characters come to their own assumptions.
That's the point here - it needs to stop. It's a mess and it's totally unfair on the players it affects when they're not at all at fault nor their characters. It's not something that is fixed easy retroactively.
By Euclid at May 18, 2014 4:58 PM
That's why this post was made to prevent it from happening in the future. What's happened has happened. We roll with what we have.
By Mew at May 18, 2014 5:00 PM
I'll add that the players who do this -do- pay a price for suiciding or retiring frivolously. The GMs are less inclined to help you in the future, less inclined to invest in you because they feel that their effort and time will be wasted. If you don't tie things up before going so that all players' needs are satisfied, they see you as someone who is inconsiderate and take that into account with future decisions.
Granted, I don't think this is an assumption they make after just one character switch. We've all gotten it wrong once and wanted a change. However, if a pattern develops, you definitely find yourself on the bad end of things with staff. Everything you want to accomplish becomes an IC effort they are not inclined to help push along.
By Kuroyama at May 18, 2014 5:04 PM
"Everything you want to accomplish becomes an IC effort they are not inclined to help push along."The only person pushing your IC efforts along is you, the player - GMs don't push any player's IC progress along. We play things as they lie and step in when support is needed to make the current or the next step of a goal which has been ICly achieved happen, or to provide an avenue for progress when it's impossible for PCs to do so and it's themely and right for the game.
(I am not speaking to Kuroyama directly, though their comment inspired this response. I'm going to use the pronoun "You", but I'm speaking to everyone following along or finding this in the future and finding out from the BGBB how Sindome works, as I did when I was a new player.)
Here's the thing.
GMs may elect to make the IC world do things which support your IC efforts if you're playing smart and ICly earning next-steps along your path which can't be achieved with your own roleplay with PCs alone. Understand this: A hell, hell hell of a lot of everything in the game is earned off other players, not off GMs handing out prizes. We're here to support your roleplaying so that it results in MORE and cooler roleplaying, for yourself and others. We're not here to give away cupcakes and sprinkle win-points on them when you ask for it enough and jump through the hoops you think we want you to.
GMs won't elect to do anything for you if the things you @note and xhelp about are only asking for things which you didn't ICly spend effort chasing and/or which wouldn't yield ANY benefit to your roleplay with others or any benefits to the opportunities for others to roleplay based on what the handout would do to your character's progress, achievements, acquisitions or position.
(I know what some of you are thinking. "xhelp Hi, have <someNPC> <give/make/show> me a <clue/position/loot> please because I GUARANTEE you I will use it to make <jobs/conflicts/capers> for <group/faction/individuals> and enhance the game for everyone as soon as I get that!" No. Show it, don't tell it. Prove you can enhance the game with your roleplay first, then ask for the thing you NEED to keep going in that direction.)
This is the reason GMs won't help anyone end their character. If you're not shrewd enough to roleplay your character's exit from the game in a way you're personally satisfied with as a matter of theme or trueness to that old character's constitution, makeup and story, AND in a way which is OOCly thoughtful to what the result of this absence will do to other players ICly and OOCly, then you're probably not shrewd enough to roleplay your new character in a way which we would spend effort to hurry along into the game world.
We're not here to help you STOP roleplaying, and, if you're that half-assed, thoughtless and negligent with the way you end your unwanted character, then the idea of helping you to hurry to START roleplaying someone else looks just stupid, doesn't it.
Again. My use of the pronoun "you" here is not aimed at any specific player. I'm explaining the GM thought process in general because a whole bunch of different uncertainties, questions and misperceptions have been raised above and over xhelp.
It's true, though. If you cause someone else's roleplaying to be FUCKED UP because of your OOC neediness/attitude/laziness, it's about the worst thing you can do to a player and to the game.
It's abominable how much IC activity there has been over a series of unrelated but unfortunately similar OOC acts. If you want to stop playing, or stop playing a given character, it should happen in a way which Withmore barely even notices, if at all.
By Linekin at May 18, 2014 8:09 PM
"If you want to stop playing, or stop playing a given character, it should happen in a way which Withmore barely even notices, if at all."Actually, I have to amend that.
If you have the positive RP chops to excitingly RP a demise which reverberates through Withmore's present and even future consciousness, do it, that's awesome. Even if it is done in a way which is designed to cause IC consequences for others based on your character's actual IC motivations to do so.
That is what's missing from the scenarios we're warning about. The total absence of thought for IC consequences for others. Bad consequences aren't what we're bitching about. Bad consequences are CP. Bad consequences are Sindome. But bad consequences should be part of an IC plan on your character's part, or, hell, unintended even (sometimes those are even better), but still based on your character's deliberate and willful IC actions. They should not result from your metagaming OOC suicide.
By Linekin at May 18, 2014 8:31 PM
Let's not forget the most basic, easy, option here.
There's 60 million people in Withmore. It is 100% themely to just 'dissapear into the mix' or'Dissapear into the populace of green'
By Mann at May 18, 2014 10:33 PM
We as a community learn from our mistakes. This is one of them. It's on every single one of us, player and admin, to handle these situations as they come up. Players are the best rule enforcers.
Players can be much more tender in their reprimands about OOC / meta behavior than admin. Players are usually much better received. Payers are always involved.
We all have to step up and course correct this problem. As a community we should be making sure that those of us that OOCly help new players are not then punished ICly for that help. The only way to successfully do that is for all of us to hold the players that either don't know better or need a wake up call, accountable for their actions and to say 'hey, here's a better way to do that...'
By Slither at May 19, 2014 7:57 AM
Keep in mind that this problem is not going to 'go away'. We have new players joining all the time and if we continue to grow this will continue to be something we have to focus our energies on.
What are some ways player or admin can help alleviate this issue in the short or long term?
By Slither at May 19, 2014 8:09 AM
Under the rules, put in a note about suicide. Other RPI's completely disallow suicide, but we don't. As suicide is CP. But a note in the rules stating what is an acceptable reason to suicide, and what isn't, should be done.
By Mann at May 19, 2014 8:13 AM
Example of a great suicide (in my opinion)
You spend months working your way up your chosen career ladder, lets go with corpie. And once there, you realize the top is a lot more stressful then you think, so you start taking drugs to get over the stress. Over the next couple of months the addiction takes hold, strongly, effecting all parts of your life. Your friends start avoiding you, and your work fires you. So you stay in your home, using your saving on drugs and survival until finally you find yourself, pennyless, and smelling of stale urine in a mix alley. In a fit of depression you grab your old butterfly knife and begin sawing the dull blade over your wrist, determined to do whatever it takes to make the pain stop.
By Mann at May 19, 2014 8:21 AM
I'm looking at certain comments above where the player(s) state (more or less - I'm paraphrasing) that they get what this thread is about and that they buy it, but I know that their character(s) continued to ICly drive one of these intrigues AFTER they posted here. That's hypocritical.
By Vetra at May 19, 2014 8:45 AM
"What are some ways player or admin can help alleviate this issue in the short or long term?"Three ways.
1 - As someone else mentioned, entries in @newbie and @rules about "What if I want a new character?"
2 - Players policing each other. Set the example, don't start this shit. Stall the momentum of someone else's accusations when another character reacts to what's probably a pretty obvious self-inflicted permadeath by a very young character (this problem NEVER occurs around characters more than about six weeks old, and it's usually quite a bit less than that).
3 - GMs reacting (when we become aware it's happening.) This subject deserves a post all its own so I'll keep this one concise and follow up with another. Actually - now that I think about it, I'm going to keep it off BGBB and circulate ideas among the GMs for now.
Players:
Don't feed this fire. This is a situation where some of you are feeling like your character can't help but react a certain way to IC events, but, when you as a player smell a re-roll suicide (it's really not fucking hard), and you allow your character to do this, you're CONTRIVING drama out of nothing.
Get over your need to find conflicts or ways for your character to "score points" if one of these obvious re-roll suicides looks like something your character can use against another. There's enough fuel for roleplaying that you don't need to take advantage of meta events like this. Want more fuel? Make it yourself, ICly, don't take advantage of another player's vulnerability to accusation and another player's metasuicide.
By Vetra at May 19, 2014 8:54 AM
On the subject of GMs reacting (point 3 above):
I changed my mind, part of this is worth posting publicly.
Players, we don't like to get xhelps when you aren't aware of IC circumstances and want to cry "unfair" because you don't know all the information. But if you really do believe that you're seeing a metafuck like this, whether its impacting your own character or another player's, be free to let GMs know you think you're spotting this, so that we can look into it and potentially take some steps to mitigate harm, if that's called for.
This can happen in some different ways:
[REDACTED - this is the part I'm keeping behind the curtain for now.]
This isn't a guarantee that we'll do any of that. What would happen is that we would sift through the information available - an awful lot of which, you as a regular player can't see. But we're a community and we can look out for each other.
By Vetra at May 19, 2014 9:01 AM
Withmore should have some kind of statistic on Immigrant suicides.
By Euclid at May 19, 2014 9:02 AM
I believe johnny, or soemone, shouted that thousands of corpies suicide each week. or soemthing along those lines.
By Mann at May 19, 2014 9:04 AM
Those two things Vetra is what I am talking about.
Players pushing this 'intrigue' when we they are aware that this whole situation is one big meta fuckup.
GM's doing something because this is getting ridiculously out of hand by now and its just making other character pay unfairly for the frivolous acts of some. Hence they are getting meta fucked out of this meta fuckup.
By IssacF at May 19, 2014 9:04 AM
I don't know. There are plenty of good suggestions in this thread but that one doesn't sit right with me. It doesn't make sense for some characters to just ignore ammo that's handed in their lap. It sounds like the proposed solution is more metagame to fix metagame.
By Euclid at May 19, 2014 9:07 AM
While I don't think suicide is good for the game. I think it's important we as players and the GM staff remain dynamic in there ability to support other players decisions. The ability for SD to change so spontaneously on the fly is what I think is strong factor that separates it from most games - why would we deny ourselves an unpredictable curveball like suicide? Could it be done better? Of course but I think we should take the opportunity it presents.
"But what about the corpie who hires newbie?"
He learned to better vet out his hires and possibly find work that separates himself from them should they decide to kill themselves.
"But what about all the plot's going on?"
Shit happens. Some of the best plots I've ever seen have involved short lives characters who fucked a horrendous amount of stuff up.
I think you guys are getting a little too soft. People die. People get permed. If you spend your time trying to make these things happen in constantly convenient and choreographed fashion - you're denying yourself some of the fun of Sindome.
Roll with the punches - let shit hit the fan
By ReeferMadness at May 19, 2014 9:38 AM
I would agree if it was Plot Involved or Plot Induced as the person let GM's know via Notes or whatever that they plan on doing it for Plot. Or something. But read the title. Head GM even sees this as a mess. It is not fun. And I am not the guy getting tore by this. Hell MY character could also use this as ammunition. Why not then? Because I feel this was not part of the plot/plan or Slither would have never posted this.
By IssacF at May 19, 2014 3:03 PM
While I am generally the first person to echo sentiment like yours Reefer. Not in this case. And it's simply because 'rerolls' shouldn't cost other people there hard earned rp. Plain and simple. Just because soemone else decided to end there guy before there N is even removed, why should other players RP suffer?
I'm all for staging your suicide to look like someones murder. i'm all for doing that, and having your clone cry foul. I'm all for suicide after a nice long personal plot that I don't see, where you have a downwards spiral.
I'm not for suiciding for a reroll. Ever. You want a reroll, move your pc from withmore, and reroll. You don't have to kill yourself. personally, I'de like to see reroll suicides get a temp ban.
By Mann at May 20, 2014 9:40 AM
As a chronic suicider on other muds, I have to chime in. When I decide to kill off my character it's not because things aren't going my way. I love obstacles and adversity. The problem is that I'm never completely satisfied with the choice I make and it's not easy to shift your path from street samurai to a hacker and from a hacker to media personality. I kill myself on impulse and it's something I need to work on. It has nothing to do with other players and the current situation, it's simply the case of grass is super neon green on the other side.
I think Sindome can benefit from some kind of retirement option, where your character walks off into the sunset, the explanation being that they either leave the city or settle down, abandoning their goals. It's, IMO, a better closure to a story arc than jumping from a tall building and leaving your corpse for all to find.
By nihilist at May 30, 2014 9:37 AM
I am in the same position as nihilist, I believe, or nearly so. I mostly play MUSH/MUX codebase games, and run one of my own on MUSH. They're also oriented completely around role-play, but they don't tend to take the departure of characters nearly as seriously as SD does.
My biggest problem is that it takes me a while to hit on that character who suits me just so. Although people can say 'just raise the skills you need' and dismiss it, that takes quite a long time. More problematic is the fact that it may not at all fit your character or history. That's where recreation becomes attractive, especially if I see the problem early on. If I know X doesn't click for me and I'm having no fun, but I've seen Y played and find it very attractive, I'll want to make the change.
I don't have these thoughts as a way of avoiding conflict or plot issues. I just know what I do and don't like. It's like having a favorite color. You don't know why it's your favorite, it just is. Searching until I find the right character, archetype plus personality, is what has seemed to be a draw for me.
By Kuroyama at May 30, 2014 10:41 AM
People get tired of characters. I have. You have.
But we elected to play a roleplaying game. With other people. In a single-player game you can quit and start over. You won't get better at the game if you do so, but whatever, there's no one else around to care. Now: When playing with others, isn't "I quit now, see you tomorrow" poor sport?
Roleplaying a death can be fun. It can be as imaginative as roleplaying the struggle to persevere.
The "Three Ways To Die" post which I fished off the Wayback Machine (second post from the top, at the link below) addresses players with old, tired characters, mostly, but is just as applicable to someone who has a character they've only been playing for however few months, weeks or days.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090523055101/http://www.sindome.org/thescroll/
By Linekin at May 30, 2014 6:18 PM
Just wanted to update this with the latest policy. You can use the suicide booths ICly to end your character. That's what we've put them there for. You should still consider the RP and people affected by you leaving the game suddenly, but the booths are a good way to go if you need to.
By Slither at Jul 1, 2018 9:02 AM
Hm. I am sure far less people would kill themselves if permanent character retirement was a thing. Just buy a one way ticket at NeoTrans, board a shuttle, your char gets erased, no extra work from staff.
Much more themely than having no other recourse than to take a very, very inmersion breaking course of action by killing off a character when it would make no sense for it, but the player is frankly bored or tired of the PC.
By Kuzco at Jul 2, 2018 6:45 AM
I find permanent character retirement to be wanting an easy way out and boring to be quite honest.. CP exit is far more fun for everyone. You can write your character a wicked come back in your ships and fanfics. This idea probably won't ever get my support.
By Cerberus at Jul 2, 2018 2:30 PM
I don't think you can have it both ways.
Either you give players in-character, thematic ways to remove their characters from play (which is not always just because they want to re-roll, but because the character's story is done with no more interesting story to tell or they simply don't want to play this game anymore), or you get the un-thematic suicides that ruin the game for everyone that this thread started talking about. In short, if people don't have an option for a thematic, in-character end for their character, they will settle for unthematic and meta. Either way, a character whose player wants it gone will get it gone eventually. I, personally, would rather have the option that disrupts the game's verisimilitude less, even if it's the "easy way" (of course, it isn't).
By Maina at Jul 2, 2018 2:48 PM
The best way to exit the game is loud and without a clone. Collect your grenades, load up on ammo, sharpen your blade once you're without a clone and go after your greatest nemesis, let's say you win, push the envelope more, keep going until you stop winning, never clone, or do clone, maybe you found more passion for your character by living on the edge? It actually happens.
Or suicide, I don't care. But I am not letting you walk off into the sunset, personally. Put some effort into it and give everyone a good show of it or you know, take a break and come back when you've got some interest in being cyberpunk.
Corpies can die quietly in a booth if they lived quietly and have no enemies. We don't really account for those types of characters and you may as well booth if your life has been that mundane. :P
This is cyberpunk dystopia. Can't always have your way, and I see people walking off into the sunset without sacrifice a form of 'winning' and nobody wins at Sindome.
By Cerberus at Jul 2, 2018 2:52 PM
Let's be honest, suicide booths are for people who mess up in chargen or who will not accept that the 6 points they put into a skill they don't want are not a reason to kill their character off.
It's for people who get infected with a nano virus that is going to spread to their next clone if they update.
It's for themely killing.
Character retirement sounds like a topic for the town hall ;) And I don't think I see it in that thread....
By Slither at Jul 3, 2018 8:30 AM
There are no second acts in cyberpunk lives.
By kroack at Jul 3, 2018 10:02 AM
Molly Millions would beg to disagree. :)
By Jameson at Jul 4, 2018 4:45 PM
I was going to make an idea post about retirement and I still might, but this thread sinks into it and I figured why not ooga booga thread necromancy instead of making a new one.
Where do people sit on this issue now? The game's grown and changed significantly. Nowadays, it's not just a several dozen UE that rerolls are working with, it's a couple hundred. It's arguably harder to go out in a blaze of glory than it was before. Immigrants are more protected than they've ever been. Even if you play a complete baka it seems someone, somewhere, is bound to take pity on you and give you a donation to keep going if only for their amusement. Not saying that's bad by the way, very Withmore, love it. And I love the constantly changing influx of immigrants that Withmore has always been. Why not lean into that?
I would love to see the policy behind vacationing a character broadened a little, requiring only six months before you can vacation a character to play a new one. Also, I think that new characters within three months should be given the option to board a caravan outside of Withmore that will take them back to wherever the fuck they came from. Suicide leaves a negative vibe behind ICly, that's the whole point of OP, but I agree with Maina, if that's the case we need to allow a themely way for players to reroll.
On the flip side, I don't believe characters over a year should be able to suicide, but that's a whole nother can of worms.
By Leech at Apr 22, 2022 1:36 PM
We sit about the same place we did when Fengshui posted it. More so when players suicide their characters every few days or weeks in again and again, we'll just stop approving backgrounds until that person stops as it wastes considerable staff time and player time otherwise.
It's extremely harmful to the community when a string of ten immigrants come in, get people to invest, and then vanish or jump or booth all ten times.
Being welcoming to new characters takes a significant emotional and time investment, and those players being so welcoming deserve more for their time than 'poof'. We want to see those new people stick with their characters and change their story in play if they have to.
By MirageGM at Apr 23, 2022 6:40 AM
Not much to add to this, more a sort of sigh of frustration that has been in my head for a little while. Not going to labour the point, just going to agree massively with Mirage and say that recent events has made it hard on and IC and OOC leve now to invest more readily in new plays because of the trend recently of immies imploding every five minutes.
I know I am not the only one that feels it, and likely have gotten off lightly on all counts in terms of investment.
Just glad to see it is seen and is being addressed in a sensible way.
By fopsy at Apr 23, 2022 6:46 AM
Just an observation, but the trend of "immies imploding every five minutes" does seem to follow the trend of people piling on immies in SIC. Is it thematically approprate? I suppose. Is it helpful? No.
Yes, being welcoming to a new character takes significant investment. So does making a new character, or at least it should. I have no way of knowing which immies are new characters of existing players and which are truly new players, but I know that when I came to the game had I been subjected to the (IC) verbal abuse that I see leveled at many immies now, I would have seriously reconsidered playing the game. At the very least, I can understand why some would kill off a new character just to escape the dogpile and start clean.
By Blackbird71 at Apr 23, 2022 9:06 AM
It goes way, way beyond verbal abuse. Any immy that doesn't kiss every ass that presents itself to them gets absolutely eviscerated. Immies in the last... Half year or so have become a lot more tame as a result, at least from I've seen.
I don't know if it's an immy specific thing, a culture shift or just certain PCs currently, but there's been a lot of just casual murder with no RP or story attached and people justify it with 'it's themely'. It's still a roleplaying game. We're all here to roleplay, primarily. And I'd wager a LOT of deaths in recent times have almost nothing to do with roleplay. I remember when I first started years ago and played kind of a shitty immy, people didn't murder my character. They threatened them, beat them up, dangled them off rooftops. And it was usually for good reasons. Now it feels people just murder them or cut off all their limbs (pet peeve, by the way. Cut off an arm, a hand, a leg, whatever. Cutting off all their limbs? Just kill them if you're going to do that. It's awkward as fuck to RP out and we all know why you're actually doing it) for saying they support the Ghosts instead of the Icons.
So yeah. Awful that people are going through characters super fast, but I can definitely see why it's happening. Remember killing people is only good if it teaches a lesson. Killing someone 10 times? That's just making the player miserable, it's basically trying to inconvenience them OOC so much that they'll ICly do what you want. It's shitty. Tell a story instead. Get creative. You might find that player more receptive if they too, get something out of it, even if they're losing. Throwing UE around just makes people not want to play or risk anything.
By Sly at Apr 23, 2022 1:21 PM
Sly, I like your post.
I myself am usually 9/10 against death of a character, even more so against perming, though I will admit both have their time and place, depending on how heinous the character is acting.
Beating/torturing/amputating create opportunities for future RP. Death less so. And I'm always about RP.
By aethertm at Apr 23, 2022 1:28 PM
@Sly I think the GMs have made it a rule that you should not be cutting off more than one arm or leg, removing both eyes, etc. Know I heard that somewhere and hopefully that's still the case.
Main thing we all have to remember is that because this is a roleplaying game, it is by design a collaborative effort even if you're adversaries IC. We're all responsible for providing enjoyment to one another, it's give and take. There are other games out there if you're just looking to berate or curbstomp people you know are weaker than you to get your jollies off.
/endrant
By Nymphali at Apr 23, 2022 1:41 PM
I don't think immies have been cycling fast due to hardship. I have seen many immies who had opportunities and contacts galore perm suddenly for no reason, much more than I have seen immies be brutalized for simply not agreeing with someone.
By batko at Apr 23, 2022 3:05 PM
Each case is different, but generally falls into a couple commonalities.
Some freak out after their first death, especially if it seemed random. Some get dogpiled on pubSIC and never seem to recover from it. Often, it's one into the other. IC bullying is themely but when everybody in the game decides to jump in to get their shots on a popular target I'm sure it gets overwhelming to a new player.
On another hand, some players may just be flaky and don't really commit to a PC long-term. They maybe just get bored easily and want to start over often. While I don't think that should be regarded to be a less than valid playstyle, experiences with that sort of player can make one very reluctant to invest much time, emotion, and IC currency in new PCs. Even ones with potential!
Sindome is a very hard and even sometimes slow game for new PCs to get their start in unless they happen to fall very quickly into a place where they feel like others have interest in them and the time to attend to that interest, which frankly is kind of rare with the level of distrust and secrecy at hand all over Withmore.
Some PCs barely interact outside their circle, and sometimes I'd even say it's for good cause. In certain ways all of this is just the game we've built and I'm not sure there's a solution to it. The new player experience is just rough.
By worstperson at Apr 25, 2022 4:50 PM
I was around for the original posts in this thread. I'm the one who wrote above, under a different handle, about how easy it is to "find a way."
new characters within three months should be given the option to board a caravan outside of Withmore
They have this option. A coded caravan doesn't have to exist. They only need to tell that story and then go out there and find a way to die off.
By beandip at Apr 25, 2022 5:48 PM
I have not lost a bunch of chy from investing in an immigrant. Given that I might not have a horse in this race.
I have not lost a bunch of chy from investing in an immigrant. Given that I might have some worthwhile thoughts to offer.
The original thread was started by Slither. Given that I am assuming that staff wants players to be more willing to take risks to spread their character's chy around to newer characters. When new characters perm, it makes chy flush characters hesitant to invest in other new characters.
A straightforward way to do it is to give characters who are members of established associations a budget or fund. Replenish it monthly or quarterly. Have it there with the tacit understanding that it's there for "recruiting". Some recruits will work out. Others won't. Characters can @note their recruitment efforts. A pattern of withdrawals / reimbursements without @notes will be considered fraud and dealt with appropriately in an IC manner.
This proposed mechanism is super easy to game. It's a total win more mechanic.
There should always be SOME risk in betting on an unknown. A new face that works out is a real advantage. A new PLAYER that works out is a huge advantage. It's a gamble. It should never be risk free. Because of that, I am against my own suggestion above.
There were a number of reasons listed for people / characters perming.
In cases of obvious egregious behavior where a single player is making a slew of characters in a never ending spiral, it is probably worth banning them for 3-6 months to let them take a breather and decide if Sindome is really the community they want to be a part of.
For other reasons, I believe more IC methods should be used to mitigate the risk.
Evaluate the person longer to determine if they are really a good investment.
Protect your investment / stand up for them if they're being dog piled.
Check in with them to see if they're enjoying themselves and the things that they are doing.
Investing is risky. It always will be.
The larger the risk, the larger the reward. At least usually.
This thread seems to be about the risk being too great for the reward.
Ultimately my two cents is that do not eliminate the risk completely. And do not swing the calculus too far in the Reward direction.
This game is extremely rewarding even without a bunch of gear and chy. The reward is the story. The reward is roleplaying with a group of good roleplayers. The reward is the involvement in the plots and rivalries.
The questions we should be asking ourselves is how to make those rewards accessible to new players and old players with new characters.
By Hek at Apr 25, 2022 6:47 PM
Protect your investment / stand up for them if they're being dog piled.All that does is get you piled on as well. It doesn't "protect your investment," because the new character still gets piled on every bit as much; it just increases your risk at no benefit nor increase in reward.
By Blackbird71 at Apr 26, 2022 12:05 AM
I think Sly isn't entirely right. I've seen immies start shit, cause problems, and get lauded for it because they're out doing things. It's not simply a matter of people not kissing ass, it's more often a matter of people being annoyed at certain character traits (particularly the evergreen 'you don't scare me' with a gun in your face). But there's absolutely disproportionate punishment laid out against characters for this. I think because sever exists, some people forget you can just... not use it. But on the other hand, some immies who you try to have beat up will just escalate it and escalate it; rather than just going 'I have had my teeth knocked out so I'm going to be quiet', there's definitely some who go 'well, this is unjust, I am going to voice my concerns on SIC for everyone to hear', with obvious results. Lessons are good, some people refuse to learn.
By Wonderland at Apr 26, 2022 11:00 AM
I think it's pretty simple. People quit for one of two reasons:
1) They are bored and can't find entertainment.
2) They have no hope and are miserable.
If you're having fun, then you're not quitting. But I've seen a lot of #2 lately with massive dogpiles on people who are still new to their character. Being dogpiled is often not fun because it takes away #2. So if I'm a few weeks into a character and I see months of this? Yeah, reroll is definitely a thing.
The second issue is that once you are branded something it does not go away. Ever. That can be really discouraging to want to continue playing damaged good that no one will take seriously because you made a mistake early on in your characters life. It's hard enough with an established character because every interaction is boiled down to one thing that you might have done wrong.
If you want people to stick around, give them reasons too. That goes to the player base and the GMs. If it's fun, then people will stay. If it's not, they won't. Yes, it's theme to beat people down, but it's not always the best gameplay loop. If you don't have a reason to be in someone's biz, maybe don't jump on the dog pile.
By DancingRoo at Apr 26, 2022 12:48 PM
DancingRoo
"If you're having fun, then you're not quitting.
Real life can get in the way of things, too.
The second issue is that once you are branded something it does not go away. Ever.
I've seen countless characters outlive their reputations. Some over and over.
By alittlelonger at Apr 27, 2022 4:45 PM
Some serious thread necro here. I had forgotten about this thread and started reading it only to realize I had started it. Fun times.
Dogpiling on SIC: When I ICly see people to this I tend to get on a random alias and start messing with the people messing with the immies.
You can be themely without being a jerk to new players. SIC isn't Reddit. Resist the power trip of knocking someone down a peg just for the lulz. Turn it into an RP opportunity by reaching out to the person getting dogpiled and offering some advice, assistance, etc. OOCly you're giving them a life line and showing them that the entire game isn't against them, ICly you're creating a contact and someone who may consider that they owe you for the small bit of help you offered.
Killing off your character: Agree with beandip that you can write your own story about leaving and then wander out into the wastes and die quietly in a volcano or something if you don't like the idea of suicide booths.
Money / investment: Hopefully the loan system w/ insurance reduces some of the risk involved while not blanking it out completely. We want people to take risks on others, and if they stick around, have to deal with the consequences of that. We don't want people taking risks and then not having any way to get their money back if that person decides to reroll or stop playing.
Killing immies: I've told this story before but there was a point (about 1 year into my time on Sindome, before I was a staff member) when someone rolled a character and showed up at the drome and power posed hitting my character with a bottle and dragging him outside and fighting him. I killed this Immy. I got an immediate xhelp from the head GM chastising me for doing that. Their argument was that I should know better, and be better, at RPing than to just kill this person who created RP by interacting with me (obviously they power posed but that's a teaching moment). Ever since that moment I have looked for alternative ways to handle situations like that. There are an infinite number of that that won't do permanent and lasting damage to a character. My favorite is to simply beat them up, drag them to the clinic, pay for them to get healed, and give them a warning and then walk away or pay someone to 'show them the ropes' so they don't fuck up again. There are many other ways to handle it.
Severing: I dislike the sever code and always have. I don't think it adds anything to the game and nothing that's happened since it was introduced has changed my mind on that. I think in many cases it's a fate worse than death because getting your limbs replaced is more expensive than just dying and cloning. I would (Slither speaking, not the entire staff) encourage people to restrict sever usage to extreme cases where it is justified and not pull this out in the first few go-arounds with someone.
Reaching out: Reach out to people having a hard time. Like I mentioned above, that lifeline may show them that this is indeed just a game and the actions of some people are not the actions of the whole playerbase. It may keep them from deciding that their character is unplayable / nonredeemable in the eyes of others and result in them sticking around on their current character.
Roleplaying: This is, indeed, a roleplaying game, as was pointed out. Everyone should be endeavoring to walk the line between their character going after the things that make sense for them and making IC decisions that reflect their goals, stats, and the theme, and making decisions that are going to drive roleplay/conflict/fun for themselves and especially for others. If everyone unselfishly tries to make the game more fun for the people around them then everyone will be having fun. This can be done without giving up your characters identity or goals, it just takes some additional thinking and at times mental gymnastics to justify their actions. I've seen MANY people do this successfully and it is the best way to play the game in my opinion.
By Slither at Apr 28, 2022 8:26 AM
Severing: I dislike the sever code and always have. I don't think it adds anything to the game and nothing that's happened since it was introduced has changed my mind on that. I think in many cases it's a fate worse than death because getting your limbs replaced is more expensive than just dying and cloning. I would (Slither speaking, not the entire staff) encourage people to restrict sever usage to extreme cases where it is justified and not pull this out in the first few go-arounds with someone.I think in the long term, we should promote severing as means for PC's to retain memories of consequences, but also believe that as the secondhand prosthetic market is filled up (by doing more severing) the cost of cyberlimbs will plummet and it will be commonplace to see on every PC.
Ultimately, it should be a fate cheaper in many ways than cloning.
By ReeferMadness at Apr 28, 2022 9:29 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with aethertm. Death is like salt in cooking. A sprinkle here and there can spice RP up, but too much and it spoils the experience.
As such I vastly prefer mayhem and RPed injury over murder. In my limited experience that drives RP whlie death tends to stifle it. But yes, spending a small fortune for prosthetic chrome in the knowledge that you are going to die anyway soon can be disheartening.
By Loreley at Apr 28, 2022 11:17 AM
