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Service Jobs vs Corporate Jobs
Working topside does not make you a corpie

Hi Folks -

Okay, we need to clarify something. It has long been our policy that some Mixers work service level jobs on Gold and even possibly Green. These are the low level jobs like bartenders and servers and people whose job it is to clean up after and provide for, corpies.

These jobs, while taking place topside, do not make the person who does them a corpie. We have not done the best job of communicating this over the years, partially because we didn't always have a vibrant topside population to communicate it to. We do now. And we are going to be enforcing this part of the theme much more than we have in the past.

This has some practical implications. Some of you here, fall under this category and may live topside, or consider yourself corpies. We can't stop your character from believing something, but we can treat your character differently than they'd be treated as a true corpie. And we will. And others might as well.

Membership pads are another place this has a visible effect on people. The rule of thumb we are going by is that if you don't work for a corporation, you aren't a corpie. Working at a bar in NeoTrans or as a service employee at a store on Gold, does not a corpie make you. And that means that if you pay dues for a membership, and are given a membership pad, that pad is going to be on Red.

If your character's situation changes and they get a corporate job after clawing their way up the corporate ladder, we can move you at your request.

We understand that for some of you, this may not have been clear, and we expect it will take a while for the effects of this stricter enforcement of theme to trickle down to everyone in the game. Please understand that we aren't doing this to punish anyone or anything like that. We all choose the kind of characters we play, and thus, we choose where we fit into the theme. There are always opportunities to climb higher, or fall harder.

As always we appreciate your support in teaching and enforcing the theme, it's truly the best way for new players (and returning players) to learn the game.

Questions?

This is a welcomed clarification.

I've been wondering about it for a while, too. Good to know.

Currently at least some of these topside service jobs codedly treat people as corpies.

They don't get stopped at Green checkpoints and can enter the Praetorian.

Is this going to be looked at?

Good thread, thanks for the clarification.

I have one question:

If Corpies belittle them for not being "corpie enough", how do Mixers treat them? If they work and live topside, would they be thematically allowed and welcomed in the Mix (as far as hospitality in the Mix can go)? Wouldn't this place them in a "gray area" spot where they're not welcome by Corpies and also not welcome by Mixers, basically a limbo?

I think you might need to adjust the code as some of the characters who work in said jobs can access Praetorian doors.

Euclid, yes, we've already begun that process.

Excellent.

RE: Mixers living topside

With this clarification, my hope is that over time we see less service workers living topside. The primary reasons this is possible are:

1. Roommates with someone who works at a corporation.

2. Membership pads

Most of the service level jobs do not lend themselves to the monetary cost of living topside in a real apartment, without spending most if not all of their wages on this.

Love this.

villa:

The way I see it, Mixers who work topside are... Mixers. Mixers in these kinds of jobs is one of the realities of the theme and I think that a Mixer with a level (but themely) world-view would be a bit disgruntled with those who work topside jobs and probably not much further, but that's the reality of mass unemployment.

Obviously there are many more anti-topside Mixers who would take further exception to this...

That said, if a Mixer is working a topside job and also trying to live topside, I would expect them to be treated completely differently if they then wandered into the Mix. These people are clearly 'wannabe corpies'.

Obviously my interpretation has some subjectivity and there's going to be a range of reactions based on individual characters' beliefs, but it's also based off years of time in the Mix seeing how the game reacts to Mixers with topside jobs.

Also curious how these folks are considered socially, are they mixer-mixers? Are they still trash golems? Are they just more respectable trash golems? What does this mean for corporate rules about socializing with mixers?

I'm mostly confused about a place like KMB, which has bartenders and dancers, but is obviously supposed to have a much classier array of employees than say a random topside mall worker or barista somewhere.

To be clear, I'm not against this clarification or this 'class' of workers. I think it's necessarily and as far as game health and class richness very interesting and fun to have a more grey area class of players/workers in the game -- I'm just unclear about how socially these folks are dealt with thematically by both more hardline corpies and mixers.

I like the term, "Clean Mixer" when considering the person serving me my lunch and coffee.

But in all honesty, there's different levels to the Mix, and there should be to the Corporate world too.

Not all corpies are created equal. Truly desperate Mixers might see Clean Mixers as a better opportunity for mugging than a normal deadbeat Mixer, but easier to take advantage of than a true Corpie because the Clean Mixer still lives in the Mix.

Other Mixers might not be bothered by them and might not want to get involved with them in case they're on their way up and cause legal trouble.

Other Mixers might want to slip some chyen in their pocket to have them report any conversations back that might be interesting.

Other Mixers might just blow them up for being traitors.

All these possibilities create depth and with this change, we hope that depth begins to shape shape topside.

Cereberus put it perfect. It isn't a black and white issue, there are varying shades of gray in between for both sides of the equation. Just like anything in life.

I'm really confused about this. If they have to go live in the mix, then they will undoubtedly be killed by mixers, there is no question about this. They'll have to hide when returning to the mix, which makes sense but is sort of annoying when you take into consideration that the only thing they will ever really be returning to the mix for is to sleep in this situation.

Wouldn't it be possible for them to live in a place like Krakeon, which isn't far off in terms of cost to Ashlin or Xpress Heights? Also, most entry level corporates don't make the salary required to be able to rent a place like the Praetorian on their own either. Two 'gray area' characters would be able to share a room at Krakeon easily, since it wouldn't make any sense for them to stay anywhere else, given the enforcement of the divide.

I have no problems with this clarification, just a little perplexed at why anyone would put themselves in the position of being hated by corporates + killed by mixers. It leaves very little options for protection.

Right. I think one of the easiest ways to mishandle theme is to play with hard and fast rules for areas that should be more ambiguous.

Good clarification. I think even if you do work for a corporation, there's always going to be rungs of influence and prestige, so of course there should be a definitive social gap between those who work for a corp and those who just do menial jobs Topside.

You're overthinking Necronex. I've played with many many characters who have worked service jobs topside and lived in the Mix and been perfectly fine aside some themely harassment and conflict.

If your Mixer-working-Topside wants that extra security, get a roomie and live in the cheapest way possible. That's more RP right there, and I agree that member pads shouldn't allow someone to bypass that realistic economic requirement.

So, say you are one of these people with a membership pad up top. What should you do as of today? Prepare to move?

Do service workers and topside specific incorporated citizens differentiate or will they be falling into the same category in the thematic direction?

@Supermarket At this point, I'm less interested in moving people already in place and more interested in making sure from here on out, people stick to this theme.

If you are a person who lives in a membership pad topside and works a service job, and you want to go to the Mix because you think it's themely, put in an @service-request. Otherwise, we'll handle individual cases as they come up or become apparent to us in the coming months.

What about putting one residential complex on Gold to solve the divide issue? Something aside from a hotel that workers can live at and not need to worry if they fit on Green or not.

'Solve the divide issues'.

But this is what seems to be being promoted.

And I'm ALL for this. I feel like the game has been straying away from blurred-lines, and this is a change in a positive direction. Those blurred areas foster the theme and make the city feel more organic and dynamic.

Gold isn't a residential area. There are lower-tier residence solutions in Green and also upper-tier solutions in Red.

I've always liked the whole thing about 'half-Mixers' or 'wanna-be Topsiders' thing. The IC division is great, and I wanna see more of it as it leads to more RP.

Will there be an IC announcement somehow? Not sure how on a character level it'll be justified for someone to want to move from a Green apartment to one in Red.

(Is Anderson going to yell at people for being incompetent and allowing mixer-corpies to live in the Prae?)

Also, is Krakeon also out bounds when it comes to pads for mixer-corpies?

Okay no, that's not what I meant by that at all. The problem here is that those in the grey area are probably not going to go back to Red, nor would they be too incentivized to work topside if they find they have to walk back that way to get home. I realize that might be something you want but if you don't and you find those willing to go topside over those jobs come down, then Gold residences might be a thing.

It will not ease class tensions. If anything, it would cause more discourse to come out over rp, just like an emerging middle class does in any society that remains binary for a while.

If there was living space on Gold almost everyone would want to live there for the sake of gameplay convenience.

It's not really OOC out of bounds for your service job character to live in Green.

If you have the chy to afford rent in an apartment and still live comfortably, go for it?

Chances are your weekly wage will be just enough to pay the rent anyway, and you won't have any chy left.

There's already IC enforcement for Corpies letting non-mega-corp associated people into Praetorian and jeopardizing the security of the other residents. It's not YOUR apartment building. There will be consequences.

@Ranger.

I was more asking in terms of if staff would allow membership pads at Krakeon for those with service jobs, considering the change.

@Cerberus

There are service job holders that can open the door to the Praetorian on their own. Which brings me to another question: if that's going to be revoked then wouldn't they -have- to move out of the building? Considering Slither mentioned that this change was more for future membership pads.

I like the idea of those Clean Mixers living in the Mix. They get paid more at their topside jobs but it comes with the increased risk that they will be alienated by jealous neighbors, outed as corporate lackies, harassed in the streets but also used as pawns to pass goods and information. It creates a dilemma and an opportunity for character growth and drama.

"Will there be an IC announcement somehow? Not sure how on a character level it'll be justified for someone to want to move from a Green apartment to one in Red."

There will be no specific IC announcement. This has always been the case ICly. Things slipped through the cracks. Shows like Class Wars have raised IC awareness of the issue so people are more on the lookout for it. NPCs and PCs who notice this, will speak out about it in a themely manner.

"Also, is Krakeon also out bounds when it comes to pads for mixer-corpies?"

Krakeon is on Green. Mixers live in the Mix. So yes. It's out of bounds in terms of social structure, but that DOES NOT MEAN you can't rent a place there if you can afford it or want to live beyond your means. Mixers or 'clean mixers' struggling to change their social standing and peoples perspective of them are welcome to try to live where ever they want, they just wont be treated as corpies and we won't provide free housing to members on Green for those that don't fit the 'corporate' character mold.

"Gold residences might be a thing."

Gold doesn't have housing because we don't want it to have housing. It doesn't make sense. All the space there is taken up by corporate offices. We won't be adding anything housing wise to Gold, unless there is a major policy change which I don't expect there will be. Having to commute to work is something corpies and mixers both have to do if they work on Gold.

"There are service job holders that can open the door to the Praetorian on their own. Which brings me to another question: if that's going to be revoked then wouldn't they -have- to move out of the building? Considering Slither mentioned that this change was more for future membership pads."

If you have a membership pad at Prat, and you are not a corpie per the discussion we've just engaged in, you should @service-request and request a move. You won't be able to access your apartment after we've fixed things. Honestly, it was a mistake/bug on our part that we assigned certain jobs the wrong employment keys, which allowed people that shouldn't have access, to have access.

While I think this is a great idea and something that I was wondering not being addressed there are a few issues that arise from those changes.

1) Let's say a service worker topside is paid four kay per week. Considering they do not have anyone to share a flat their two options are either to live in the mix or to live in hab-x. Both of those options if I'm correct will set ten back around two and a half kay for either the levs or hab-x rent. Which means they spend a week working for one point five kay.

2) Jobs threaten to fire them if they live on red.

With those two in mind what's the incentive for someone to work as a service worker on gold or green? They have less money in the end than working on Red and they also have to deal with both sides having problems with them. I guess that'll eventually lead to those services not having employees at the end, or having much fewer than they do now.

It's over simplified for the sake of argument and because I'm on my phone but I think the problem is obvious here.

I agree with the changes because of Grey areas creating drama and Rp, but I don't think the solution is as simple as proposed. Or we'll end up with people not doing those jobs or getting paid for them but never bothering to role play the part.

1) They retain access to the Mix and have more avenues for income.

2) Nobody is expecting Mixers not to live on Red.

You are a rich corporate person.

Do you invite this guy to dinner with your family, or do you ignore him while he irons your suit and hangs it up for you?

Now you are the guy in the picture.

When go home to your family, are you all starry eyed and talking about how you dream of being someone who employs a suit hanger?

Or are you pissed off that the guy you work for didn't even look at you while you did your job and bitch about that instead?

All of these are possible options, and all valid. All will have different consequences by those who interact with you. But one thing is true... this guy is a well dressed suit hanger.

"2) Nobody is expecting Mixers not to live on Red."

Without going into IC events, this is definitely not the case. If that changes in the future with the proposed changes, sure but as it is, that's not the case.

It will be easy to tell if you're supposed to live in the Mix with your job. When you look at your employment record on the employment terminal in the near future it will say CORPORATE or SERVICE. SERVICE means you're a part of the service class, like that handsome suit hanger.

This is important because there is a difference between the guy that mops the floor at NLM and the guy that iron's Anderson's boxer-briefs. Anderson will no doubt make sure his boxer-brief ironer is given CORPORATE status so he doesn't have to worry about security issues, right?

This is the gray area we're talking about. Once we're done implementing our adjustments, it'll be crystal clear to every employee with a job as to what their class is.

I don't want to sound like a whiner... but I still have no idea how to justify moving my character from the Prae to a residence on Red. It just leaves a complete RP blank for me.

Excellently put, Manywaters.

Necronex666, this thread is about the general theme, not your specific character issues. Please xhelp if you need to discuss your specific character's motivations and situation.

If you need help to facilitate the move of a donation use @request-service. If you need help justifying the RP, use @request-puppet and a GM will gladly puppet a Judge and explain to your character on behalf of Praetorian management that they had a system glitch that enabled you to live there and now that they've fixed the glitch, you're out, out, out.

This should help you bridge any gaps in RP.

@Slither

Fair, I'll do that. :)

Alright so what I'm wondering here is this, if some jobs (ie bartenders, servers, etc) are being labeled as service, and therefore mixer. What about jobs that are outside that like skilled laborers. Is it basically every character who isn't directly employed by one of the main corporations?

I apologize in advance for a wall of text here, but I have put some thought into this policy clarification, and I’d like to present my ideas for this rather complex issue. I’m going to maybe go against the grain here with my opinion on this matter, but I’d like to say that I’m not simply playing devil’s advocate here and arguing for the sake of good argument. I’ll do my best to keep this on point and have a civil discussion.

I think that given the fact there are going to be IC evictions from Green residences, that this should be extended to all service workers. It makes sense OOCly to try and keep players happy and manage membership pads and allow them to be ‘grandfathered’ in to their existing housing. ICly however, it makes no sense to me to allow these people to remain on Green when it’s literally going to be handled as a ‘I planted the flag first’ situation. If future service workers are not going to be allowed to have member pads in Green—Because as mentioned earlier in the thread, they almost certainly are not living there off their service wages unless they are violating their leasing contracts and squatting with a bunch of roommates—then it is not fair to future players, as well as current players who are trying to make the move with their characters to allow them to stay. I’d propose an eviction event, a review of exiting leases and purging of all non-corporate citizens, including those with existing membership pads. I realize this is not going to be a popular opinion, but if you’re going to kick some of them out of Green because they’re not supposed to be there ICly, I think it would only be fair to kick them all out.

This is a major policy clarification and change, and I expect there are going to be some feels over it, but I would welcome a IC event along these lines so that I can RP accordingly and not have to have an abrupt about-face of existing RP with other players post policy-clarification. I also think that since people are going to be getting punted back to Red, that having such a ‘cast-out’ event might help people to have a frame and context to place their RP in. If they want to be a hardline character and kill and harass these people post-move, then that’s gritty RP. If they want to play a sympathetic ear to these people, then they also have a reason to take this stance and can RP accordingly. At least something more than on a single case-by-case basis.

"I’d propose an eviction event, a review of exiting leases and purging of all non-corporate citizens, including those with existing membership pads. I realize this is not going to be a popular opinion, but if you’re going to kick some of them out of Green because they’re not supposed to be there ICly, I think it would only be fair to kick them all out. "

This is an incredibly time consuming amount of work to ask your volunteers to do. It takes about 30 minutes per person I need to move. Also, an IC event leaves everyone moving open to being brutally killed or robbed by mixers smart enough to camp at the mag-levs. And that doesn't seem fair from an OOC standpoint.

We are moving people, as we have time, starting with Prat, where they literally cannot get into their building anymore because we've fixed the employment code requirements.

This is already being handled ICly, as it comes up. As I've already stated in this thread, people should @service-request to move. And we will also be working on policing this and moving people out as we audit things.

It's going to take some time to get everyone on the same page. And we understand that.

I understand Slither. It was not my intent to say that staff should drop what they are doing to make this change. My point was more along the lines of 'I don't think it's fair to let people grandfather in leases.' If you're not going to allow service workers in the future to have pads in Green, it seems like you are delaying the bitter pill on existing members in Green and forcing it on new up-and-coming players working their way through the social ladder.

As for "an IC event leaves everyone moving open to being brutally killed or robbed by mixers" I think that's a bit of a moot point, as this is absolutely going to happen regardless with this change in policy.

Talon, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

If it helps, WCS has been like this for some time. Clearly Mixers, live on Red and work on Red, but needed topside. Try thinking of service topsiders like this. They’re “the help”. Relationships will be more nuanced because they may be more involved in topsider life, but nuance breeds RP.

WCS is based on Gold, I meant. But work all over.

For those of you employed by employment terminals, very soon when you check your employment record you will see

Job Type: CORPORATE

Or

Job Type: SERVICE

And corporate will be in golden yellow, and service with be in mixer red.

Two questions.

1. I don't disagree at all with topside medical jobs being classified as service, since they obviously aren't corporate and do provide a service, but that creates a couple of logistical problems- namely that someone living at the Praetorian doesn't have access to emergency medical care or discreet nanogen injection because a doctor can't get in the building. I really can't realistically imagine corpies being -glad- to be safe from those filthy medical professionals.

2. Is there going to be some kind of donation reward alternative for people whose jobs have been classified as service? They'll be fired from their topside jobs in many cases for going to the Mix, and if they're the kind of people who are living on Green and living otherwise mostly respectable topside lives, there isn't much reward for donating to the game as a topside service employee (other than, of course, the satisfaction of knowing you're helping keep the game alive).

There are plenty of corporate doctors and ways to discreetly get people into places for discreet things, and a red sector donation pad is just as good.

A Red Sector donation pad is not just as good when your character works certain service jobs actually. It puts them in danger if they just step foot in Red and while this might be okay if you're considering theme, it's not good when you consider that they have pads in Red that they literally may never use.

Yeah. My only point was that if your character ISN'T the type of scrappy rule-breaker who's going to go run around in Red and do what they please, having a donation pad in Red is just going to be a place you give random immies the code to so that at least it's not sitting empty. It de-incentivizes donating.

I cede your point on corporate doctors. ViriiSoma fucks. ;)

Isn't that the tradeoff of service work? You're turning your back on your fellow Mixers for a shot at corporate handouts and eight hours of not having to worry about getting mugged a day. Going home to the hyperghetto and watching your back because someone might club you over the head for being One of the Good Ones seems to be the experience service-class Mixers are signing up for.

If you want to not be that, there are corporate or Mix jobs your character could work at.

It actually gets even worse when you consider that for certain service jobs characters are required to act a certain way, which takes all choice of their hands when it comes to earning the ire of mixers. Realistically, if you make a donation and you have a service character you should at least be allowed to stay at Krakeon with it, because it really isn't even considered top tier Green living.

This is just my opinion from what I've experienced thus far though.

It was clarified earlier in the thread that it'll be the case for almost any service-classified job that the 'don't go into the Mix or you're fired' rule doesn't apply to you, that's a rule that corporations generally apply strictly to their Real Corpie employees for obvious reasons. People hiring so-called 'Clean Mixers' for service jobs know who they're hiring and what they're getting -- they're not expecting you to be living topside.

Completely wrong, Jameson. It's either there's been some form of misunderstanding or very few people IG are actually paying attention to that. Clean mixers are treated as corporate if they work in certain places while others are allowed to act as regular mixers. It would seem that there are two very distinct of 'clean mixers' and only half of them can interact with Red District characters without being attacked. There isn't even any questioning it at this point.

The concern brought up is completely valid because there's no reason for a char to willingly go down to a clone death. At this point, if you donate within certain service jobs you're donating to have an empty apartment in Red while being forced to either stay at Hab-X or Krakeon.

I mean it seems like a bad deal for the Service guys, but a Mixer getting proximity to corporate types allows them to gain certain kinds of influence (or access to victims) that the average Mixer would never have. The fact that they're walking a tightrope between people who don't respect them and people who consider them quislings is the tradeoff for that. Plus, the tips are better.

Clean Mixers have just as many ways to avoid trouble in the Mix as regular Mixers do and should be taking advantage of these. Walking around expecting not to encounter any consequences without doing anything to protect yourself is not a super good strategy.

I didn't say anything about how they would be treated by other mixers. The commenter was saying they would be fired from their jobs for going to the Mix to go home to their donation pad, which for service jobs is 100% not the case, from what admins have said previously in the thread. Please don't tell me I'm completely wrong if you're not following the conversation.

I'd like to say, I think that Service Workers should be able to get a donation pad anywhere on Green that they are normally allowed to stay in. It doesn't really make sense to draw a distinction there. Clearly management doesn't care anywhere outside of the Prae, so I don't really understand the point. By all means, keep Service Workers out of the Prae, there are actual IC reasons for that.

It doesn't make sense to me either as some means of putting extra pressure on the player character either, or allowing them to live outside of their means, because players living on Red, pulling in 3k a week are allowed to take on apartments that would normally be roughly triple what they are making a week in rent.

I'd like to say, I think that Service Workers should be able to get a donation pad anywhere on Green that they are normally allowed to stay in. It doesn't really make sense to draw a distinction there. Clearly management doesn't care anywhere outside of the Prae, so I don't really understand the point. By all means, keep Service Workers out of the Prae, there are actual IC reasons for that.

It doesn't make sense to me either as some means of putting extra pressure on the player character either, or allowing them to live outside of their means, because players living on Red, pulling in 3k a week are allowed to take on apartments that would normally be roughly triple what they are making a week in rent.

Not sure what the deal with the double post here was, sorry about that.

Fair enough @Jameson. My bad.

Agreed with Bean tho.

The idea is to enforce theme, Bean. The Help doesn't get to live in the same nice apartments and houses as respectable members of society unless they're somehow pulling in a lot of side money.

Krakeon is shitty, it just happens to be on Green. Ashlin Crown comes with both more room and more useful things than Krakeon.

Tha'ts the thing though, They do get to. And it isn't like they can't afford to live there normally either. It doesn't take an insane amount of money to live in the other two nice apartments, And it isn't hard at all to afford a place in the Krakeon. It isn't really theme, it's annoying. Two service workers living together can afford a nice apartment extremely easily. And one can make due just by running crates.

All it really does it take all incentive away from Service workers to donate. I know because I would have already donated if this was not the case.

Well I suppose there are a lot of ways you could ignore theme if you really wanted to.

I'm trying not to reference my specific character situation, but it IS a job classified on the employment terminal as service, and it IS a job wherein said character was explicitly told by the GM-controlled boss that they would be fired if they went to Red. It might be a rare situation, but my character can't be the only one in it.

I'm honestly fine with my character being thrown in the 'Clean Mixer' category because it feels validating to certain RP. But I acknowledge that other people's chips haven't necessarily fallen where mine have, and I really, really hate the attitude on Sindome of 'I don't have this problem, so it can't possibly be a real problem.'

Taoimean, your situation has likely changed ICly as have a lot of other peoples'. You should have your character clarify with their boss.

I wouldn't call it ignoring theme, just because service workers aren't living out of cardboard boxes on Green. There are widely available and heavily encouraged ways that basically any Service Worker can use to increase their income, It doesn't make sense in character why they would chose to live on Red, where they are under constant threat, rather than live on Green comfortably. Why would you live in a super ghetto when you have the means to live in a nice neighborhood, other than that you are being controlled by someone through a computer screen who delights in your misery.

I wouldn't call taking on a roommate against theme either really. If anything It seems like the game encourages you to think outside the box to provide better for yourself.

But that is neither here nor there. What I'm saying is, it doesn't make sense, that service workers are allowed to live on green, but not have donated pads located on green. Especially if they were specifically told not to mingle with any 'mixers' when they were hired.

On the subject of perks with donations, I also wanted to point to the new member OOC room. I -like- it there! And I think it's a nice bonus for donating, way better than stepping into total darkness to go ooc.

I'd like to add too, that even if that last bit is no longer true, and they are allowed to interact openly with 'dirty mixers' my first point still stands.

If Service workers do constitute a new third class, and are treated separately from regular mixers, and corpies, it might be time to shift the rules that regular mixers can't live on green period, whereas service workers are.

"they were told to not mingle with Mixers when they were hired"

New year. Policies changed. Those instructions DON'T (see: capitals and bold) apply to you anymore if you are a service worker.

Literally the only change this brings is:

1) You're not allowed in the Praetorian

2) You're allowed in the Mix

3) Corporate citizens now belittle you and treat you like shit (HEELLOOO?!!?! CONFLICT?!?!?! SOCIAL DIVIDE?!?!?!?!)

So why are you guys bitching about it?

I would point out that not all mixers can have easy access to their donation pads. Sometimes IC events make your pads location inconvenient.

If you really feel that it is not worth donating unless you get a pad on Green, then you should just wait until your character is a corpie. If you don't want to wait, then check with staff. Last I heard they are willing to transfer your donation pad if your character changes position and sticks with it for a while.

To be honest, I would love to see the rent for ALL topside rentals increase drastically and the corporate compensation to increase equally. I would love it if the crappiest place on Green cost significantly more that the best place on Red for non-corpies.

Sure, the worst place in Green might have less space and amenities then the best place in Red, but that is only a tiny part of what you are paying for. On Green you have a nice view, no gangers, low chance of violent crime, Judges might care if you call for help. There is more to a place then rooms and appliances.

"There are widely available and heavily encouraged ways that basically any Service Worker can use to increase their income, It doesn't make sense in character why they would chose to live on Red, where they are under constant threat, rather than live on Green comfortably."

Because they don't choose to live in red. Service workers are mixers. Red is for Mixers. Just because you're not a rampaging criminal does not change the fact that your character is in crushing poverty from a base salary perspective. The fact they can rent in Green is capitalist, but does not really make a whole lot of sense to me from an immersion standpoint. If I was running an apartment complex in the corporate 'sector' of a city, I would not be renting to literal janitors, nurses and strippers. It would piss off the rest of my renters.

I'd have to agree with you on the point of places in Red and places in Green having comparable rents, Grey0. I don't know about adjusting salaries to compensate though, because that would just further divide the difference between people with member pads and those without, as well as those with roommates and those who are solo. Maybe bump up rental rates significantly and compensate subsidized housing to compensate, so there's not suddenly a much larger Chy faucet for those with pads?

I believe people seem to be forgetting the basic thing here.

Like everybody else has said, service is a Mixer. You're not corporate. If you have the income, by all means, go rent a place on Green - but your basic salary won't allow it. You're just someone who serves the people who actually matter on Green.

There's nothing stopping you from taking on side biz and making enough money to live on Green without wasting your whole salary on it. However, membership pads obviously won't affect you because at the basis, you're a Mixer.

You don't get a free pass as a member to live on Green. If you want to live up there as a service worker, you -will- have to make extra money, and spend time and effort into putting all that money into a place at Green so you still have left-over salary to live topside. Being allowed a pad would take the entire point of that away.

So why are you guys bitching about it?

Because for some of us, this is a drastic RP change that is going to hit our characters out of nowhere after months or years of established topside lives?

Theme is great. So is nuance. Yes, cyberpunk is gritty, but why the fuck would anyone want to play in a world where EVERYONE is a villain?

I wasn't meaning salaries. I was meaning housing perks.

Characters in WCS don't really count here, considering they have zero issue with working and living in Red. However, these are not nurses and strippers. They're performers and doctors, which means that they hold themselves to a certain standard due to their roles and are not the same as regular mixers. I'm really trying to avoid going to IC in this discussion, but it seems like a lot of the people against clean mixers renting Krakeon hasn't actually experienced playing one.

Remember, even the worst tier apartment in Green costs more than your average service worker salary.

The way I see it that distinction was already made with the Prae, There is your no clean mixers allowed apartment. Otherwise it was already stated that no one is forcing service workers to move. So why can't their players acquire donations pads there?

I would also argue that if you were renting an apartment complex you would want to rent to nurses. People who work on Green and may need to get to work in a hurry in case of emergencies. It's already been hinted at, and acknowledged in game that just like mixers, and corpies, there are different levels to service workers too. With some holding more "respectable" positions that others. Sure your average Corpie wouldn't want to share a building with a stripper or janitor, but a nurse, doctor, or craftsman might be another story.

Also, I feel like people are not taking into consideration the service employees that had pads on Green before the change. This is not just people that are thinking about renting on Green in the future, these are people that don't know what to do with their current donation situation because of a sudden change.

I do have to agree though - high tier apartments on Green with corporate renters probably wouldn't allow service workers. I don't see the problem with allowing service workers rent low and middle tier apartments on Green, however, if they can pay for it and still continue their jobs - though still they shouldn't be allowed free passes and get pads.

Put in the time and effort to earn all that extra flash to get yourself a place in the Krakeon, for example, and sure - live there for all I care.

@Ranger

I don't understand why people keep bringing cost into this. Xpress Heights costs a whole lot and service mixers are still allowed to have pads there, so does Ashlin in fact. Krakeon being shittier than all of these places doesn't help this argument at all either...

I mean, I think Staff are basically trying to say that...well, IG, everyone SHOULD be a Villain. I've thought this for awhile now. They have a preference for them, because it's themely. "Villains" get more RP I suspect, because it's themely. From a Staff point of view, I suspect, they drive the game.

Sorry to say, if you don't think they are trying to craft and shape the game into a place where you have to suspect almost everyone around you might be trying to fuck you over somehow? You might be doing it wrong. Just my couple cents.

I think the complaints come in two forms:

1. I have RPed my character a long tine in a certain way and this change is vary hard for me. I can not even imagine HOW I can adapt to this change without invalidating or retconing my character.

2. If I am a Clean-Mixer and allowed to rend an apartment topside then I should be allowed to have a donation pad topside too. I don't want to donate if I have to get a pad in a less desirable location.

I can't say too much on #1. It's hard. I'd recommend reaching out to staff and seeking guidance maybe. I do know that it has hit EVERYONE to some extent at least. Even my character has adjusted it's views. Honestly, if in doubt, all new topside service workers are like WCS and Chex have always been now.

As far as #2 goes, I can't identify. I mean, the fact is that people have always been limited on where they can get a donation pad. And those who were accidentally given one have been left alone unless there was a technical reason why they couldn't be (Praetorian). Going forward there will simply be fewer mistakes. The fact is that a donation pad does not mean you get guaranteed and safe use of a place. And if you really hate where it is located, consider subletting it (I was pretty sure this is allowed but will double check the donations page).

"Theme is great. So is nuance. Yes, cyberpunk is gritty, but why the fuck would anyone want to play in a world where EVERYONE is a villain?"

Except like 90 percent of people have this attitude so there are actually very few antagonists to choose from if you ever want to pick a fight. And the game is about anti-heroes, not villains. People who have to make tough choices and find themselves thrust into conflicts they didn't necessarily ask for.

As for the fact that service wages can buy a topside apartment - wages are the way they are to keep the economy under control. You as a player are responsible for respecting theme.

If you want to be a full-fledged topsider, apply for a corporate job. If you want to fit in better, think about how to boost your image topside. If you don't want to be hated in Red, look for IC ways to avoid this or go back to the Mix full time. There's no problem you can't solve here, and it's all good RP.

I have to agree with Bean on this one.

If anything, it seems like even the Clean Mixers have a social line. You have the bar workers and janitors who will be making enough to live decently in Red, but you also have doctors, high end entertainers, and others who -do- make enough to live at the K, and do so comfortably. Is it really anti-thematic for someone who makes enough to live in relative safety to jump at the chance to do so?

Sure, don't let your lowly entry level doctors into the Prae, but why restrict him from the suburbs? And if the ability and the validity is there, why not let their membership pad be there?

@Necro

"I don't understand why people keep bringing cost into this. Xpress Heights costs a whole lot and service mixers are still allowed to have pads there, so does Ashlin in fact. Krakeon being shittier than all of these places doesn't help this argument at all either..."

See, this is the problem. Okay, Xpress Heights might cost a lot. The price isn't the problem however - it's NOT THE CASE for membership pads.

Service level workers are MIXERS. If you want to live in a place - Green - where you DON'T BELONG, you should be forced to do something extra (which is earning extra money to actually rent a place there) and pay the full cost.

Yes, it's shittier, but you want to live on GREEN as a MIXER. You aren't supposed to. Go get a membership pad at Xpress because it's where you're SUPPOSED TO BE.

If you want to instead decide 'no, I want to live on Green!' as a SERVICE employee, then you better earn the extra money and rent it out yourself without relying on your pad.

It's not the quality, it's not the price. It's the theme.

Unless something has changed or I misunderstood something, there is nothing stopping service workers from living at the K or another place on Green they can afford - as long as there aren't IC restrictions put in place. Just be expected to work for it and RP it. Some people might not like it. Go for it. Do it. You just can't have your membership pad there.

And if you are going that route and want to pay for membership, then donate and sublet your place in Red to help fund your topside adventures. I double checked and you are allowed to sublet your membership pad. It's not as convenient as getting a membership pad on Green directly but you can use it to help you get there in a sense. And you get to RP the whole snotty landlord bit maybe :-P

@Vera

I just don't believe that it's that black and white. But I suppose what I am arguing here is that there are some Service Workers closer to Corpies than others, I think everyone can agree on that. For them, it doesn't make sense to move back down to Red, especially if they are generally regarded positively by the rest of Topside.

My previous point still stands. If you are allowed to rent somewhere, you should be allowed to get a donated pad there. Of course it makes things easier for you. Arguing against that it pointless. But, donation pads make the game easier for literally everyone who has one. I'm suggesting that it would only be fair to extend that to Service Workers who are allowed to live on Green, and can do so within their means. I don't believe it would destroy the Theme of the game.

it is black and white and that is literally the entire theme of the corpie mixer divide

Also literally any character can rent in Green, regardless of where they work or what they do. The point of restricting donation pads is to force Mixers who want to put on airs to have to hustle IC for it. Sounds like it's working.

"My previous point still stands. If you are allowed to rent somewhere, you should be allowed to get a donated pad there. Of course it makes things easier for you. Arguing against that it pointless. But, donation pads make the game easier for literally everyone who has one. I'm suggesting that it would only be fair to extend that to Service Workers who are allowed to live on Green, and can do so within their means. I don't believe it would destroy the Theme of the game."

Yet it would. Yes, membership pads are supposed to make things easier - that is correct. It's a way of the game thanking you. However, it doesn't change the fact that even if you technically don't face any OOC restrictions about renting a place at the K - you have to keep in mind, just like I've stated, service workers do NOT BELONG up at Green.

Just because you've donated shouldn't give you the right to bypass the service-corporate job divide and just get a free place at Green where you can basically avoid the whole point of this being put in place. The whole addition of this system adds to the theme that you're a Mixer that has decided to be Cain and serve the people who matter in Withmore.

The whole point of you 'being allowed up at Green' is IF you can make that enough money. You should be thankful that is even the case, as Staff gave you a chance to RP more and look for ways to make extra flash to actually have a shot at living Topside.

I do not believe or think Service Workers should get a membership pad at Green just because they technically are 'allowed'. If you don't want to live in the Mix, work for it.

Alright, the why even have donation pads in the first place if they stifle RP? Why not just remove donation pads for all mixers then? Force them to put in extra hustle to afford a place to live in the Mix?

They don't stifle RP. they're a nice way the game can thank you for your donation by giving you access to a home that ICly and thematically your character should be able to afford without having to go above and beyond their basic job.

"Alright, the why even have donation pads in the first place if they stifle RP? Why not just remove donation pads for all mixers then? Force them to put in extra hustle to afford a place to live in the Mix?"

Because it's themely Mixers live in the Mix, and corporate live in Green. Service workers are Mixers. You SHOULD live in the Mix, not topside. You still can if you want, but you'll have to hustle and ICly make enough money to do that. That is the ENTIRE POINT.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that any and all topside service workers are Cains. Let each character work that out themselves. Mixer opinions on Clean-Mixers can and should vary depending on many potential factors.

"I wouldn't go so far as to say that any and all topside service workers are Cains. Let each character work that out themselves. Mixer opinions on Clean-Mixers can and should vary depending on many potential factors."

I didn't mean to say that - but the theme here is that you're a Mixer who prefers to serve topsiders. Sure, it depends entirely on character, but the conflict is all about how you're a Mixer who's a wanna-be corpie. That's the point.

There's something else I hear unspoken in arguments, so I'll list it: I hear people being afraid that trying Red out due to the change will make them a bright, shiny target for perm-death.

I hear and understand your fear. Without revealing IC info, I'd like to point out that the unused pads can be used to your advantage to further rp if you choose not to move in that direction. There's a way around it!

"they're a nice way the game can thank you for your donation by giving you access to a home that ICly and thematically your character should be able to afford without having to go above and beyond their basic job."

So the hoards of bartenders and strippers that make less than half of what a place in Ashlin should lose access as well?

Personally I can't see the argument here. You have a Clean Mixer that is a Doctor (or another 'Upper clean' job) with the means to afford K easily. The choice either lies in going to live in the best place in Red and be disliked, or living in the worst place in Green and be disliked. Yet only one should be eligible for membership pad?

"Personally I can't see the argument here. You have a Clean Mixer that is a Doctor (or another 'Upper clean' job) with the means to afford K easily. The choice either lies in going to live in the best place in Red and be disliked, or living in the worst place in Green and be disliked. Yet only one should be eligible for membership pad?"

Yes, because it still does not make you corporate. If you think that a certain job should be corporate, xhelp it. If it says you're service, you're still a Clixer - no matter if you're a 'upper' or 'lower'. You're STILL one.

If you want to spend your money on living topside, go ahead - if you have the means to do so, use it. According to the theme, if I make a hundred kay where I can easily afford a place up at Blue (doesn't matter what I do) - even if my social status is still a regular corporate citizen - should I be able to rent a place up at Blue and use a pad there? No, because it's not where I belong. It's not where my status lies.

The expectation is that any non-corporate employee, regardless of what it is they do (and let's note that doctors are not necessarily more valued than other professions in Sindome as they are IRL) is going to be living in the Mix, and that those who try to live on Green are living beyond their means and may be hustling, moonlighting, or pairing up just to get by.

Your donation pad lets you live within your means. Whatever else you want to do is on you, chummer.

"Yes, because it still does not make you corporate. If you think that a certain job should be corporate, xhelp it. If it says you're service, you're still a Clixer - no matter if you're a 'upper' or 'lower'. You're STILL one."

This is exactly my point. We have three classes now, Corp, Clixer and Mixer. The Clixer is disliked by both Red and Green, is allowed to live in both as long as they can afford it, but can only have membership perks applied to one?

Honestly, this feels like an elitist war that should be better played out in game. Allow the player to enjoy the membership perk, but harass the hell out of them as your snobby corpie character sits on the balcony of their luxury apartment with a pair of binoculars and the WJF on speed dial with every petty complaint they can think of. You know, the exact same type of treatment that same Clixer would get in Red.

I get it.I wouldn't mind playing a butler to an important character...I might actually learn a thing or two.

If you're working a Service job, you're not getting a donation pad on anything but red. That's our policy - we're not going to give someone an ICly free ride to a non theme appropriate place simply because they donated to the game even if this inadvertently has happened in the past.

The reality is, if you can ICly afford to live some place, go for your life. If it isn't appropriate for someone of your characters station to live there, expect the game world to respond appropriately to that should people figure it out.

You wanna live in the nice places? Become an actual corpie or do enough side biz to be able to afford it - and no, being the guy who makes me my morning latte doesn't make you a corpie, you just happen to work in the same building as people that are. The guy making me my morning latte is the poor bastard who has to commute an hour and a half from the shitty end of town to put up with crap all day from overpaid suits.

Anyone who was hired at a place prior to this policy change may have been told where they should be living - if you are not permitted to live on the upper levels then we're not going to fire you if you live in one of the alternate places. Feel free to clarify your workplace policy with your IC boss.

Can we all agree that the term 'Clixer' should go die in a fire someplace? It's absolutely cringeworthy. In my mind, there is not a third class. There is mixers, and non-mixers. I think that was the entire point of having this printed on your employment status: to make it super clear that despite the fact you work in Gold, you are not, in fact, a corporate citizen. 'Clean' mixers are poor people who are trying to be socially mobile upwards.

I hope that everyone who is arguing here about this would channel this tension into the game. It would be a welcome addition. As it stands now, it seems people are comfortable in this middle ground when they really should not be. Bring that paranoia, tension and anger into the game and bust your butt to get a corporate job so you CAN have a member pad on Green. No place hiring? Make them open a position and then ace it. Be themely!

Again, I think it's not a great idea to assume that all Clean-Mixers are seeking to leave the mix, think they are better than other mixers, or anything like that. Hell, do you think that every maid cleaning after rich people in a high class hotel is dong so to move up?

Maybe some are. Maybe the Clean-Mixer hates their job topside and is only doing it because the have no other good options. Maybe I'm wrong but declaring OOC-wise that all Clean-Mixers are cains or ladder climbers is best avoided. Let characters make that judgment for themselves IC.

I'll shut up on this point now. :-P

You are correct. I should not have stated that they all wish to be socially mobile. I do not like making blanket statements, so thank you for calling me out on that.

I totally get that a lot of people who are now Service jobs are upset to find out that in fact, their character's station in life is far more precarious than they thought. However, this is really good for the game. The amount of RP and antagonism created by having a whole class of people who take the shiny paycheck and serve the corporate sectors while not quite making enough to escape the poverty around them is significant. Just to make a few points:

1. This game is supposed to be about making hard choices. Becoming a clean Mixer is a hard choice. If you want to ride corporate coat-tails, you should expect that it might be dangerous for you. In some ways it's a riskier play than just getting a Mixer job, but that's appropriate, because the rewards could be greater. If you don't like it, you're free to pursue a Mix job, or a Corporate one.

2. This actually makes corporate jobs far more valuable and empowers decision makers within corporations to treat those jobs as such. Want a job at my corporation? What are you going to do for it?

3. There are lots of ways to protect yourself in the Mix, from friends to skills to making deals with other characters. Find out IC.

In general, I love this change because it reinforces the class divide even more. There's a whole class of people that are going from being basically safe to being persecuted. I get why it might feel upsetting if your character is in that group but I'd gently suggest trying to let go of the image you had for your character and instead see (and enjoy) the situation they're in: treated like servants by the wealthy elite and despised or envied by the violent masses for their choice. Then RP accordingly.

I'm going to paraphrase some of the complaints I've heard, and respond to them.

1. Why get a membership if you are a service level character who is forced to live on Red?

Because your membership dues helps us keep the lights on. The IC perk is just that, a perk. The game you are playing for free is the result of over 20 years of continual development by a staff that up until recently paid the thousands of dollars a year the game takes to continue themselves. We do this because we love it. You play it because you love it.

2. There are now three classes.

No, there are two classes. There is just shades of gray in each class.

This policy is not really new. Mixers were never supposed to get pads on Green. Most corporate characters are not supposed to get pads on Blue. The policy is not just about Mixers living on Green. It's about corpies living on Blue. Only the highest level corpies (NLM Media Stars, for example) are allowed to get pads on Blue. That has been easier to police because so few people even attempt to live on Blue.

However, if a corporate character wanted to hustle and spend ALL their money to live on Blue, we wouldn't stop them! Living beyond your means is a character choice we can respect. Others might ICly respect it too. Others might try to put a boot on your throat and remind you that you don't mean fuck all to them.

3. Krakeon should be allowed because it sucks.

It does suck. But that's because it's the oldest apartment building on Green. OOCly old. Probably due for a revamp. I'm sure it's on the list. However, it's a lot easier for us to build new places than it is for us to revamp places where people are already living and used to. Mixers do not get to live in Krakeon via perma-pads.

4. This is ICly unfair.

That's the point. This game is not about everyone being happy and living in harmony. It's about pain, and struggle, and the haves versus the have-nots. That is literally the definition of cyberpunk.

5. This is OOCly unfair.

I disagree. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, this is the theme of the game you are playing. It's not supposed to be simple or easy or safe. It's supposed to make your heart race and sweat break out on your forehead.

We do not want service class people to have easy access to Green apartments, the same way we don't want lower level corpies to have easy access to Blue apartments. It should be a challenge and a struggle for these characters to live on Green or Blue. Everyone needs things to strive for and motivations for their character. This is a pretty straightforward one that can motivate just about anyone. You always want more, nothing is ever enough.

We do not want to make hard work and hustle pointless by offering a shortcut for characters who wants to live above their stations. It takes the fun out of it. It makes people lazy. It's frustrating to those that do it the hard way. And worst of all...

It is extremely easy for something that happens commonly, to be viewed as normal.

My character once convinced everyone that Fuller Street (on Red) was a SAFE PLACE. Just by saying it often enough and once in a while killing a pickpocket. If you look at the Fuller Street as a place with probably a million people traveling through it a day, it seems silly that one person could do that, but when you look at Fuller Street as a place where 20-50 people are traveling through it a day, it makes sense that one person could do that.

Eventually I realized that I was -breaking the game- because while oldbies and even middlebies knew that what my character was saying was bullshit because he couldn't always be watching... new players knew nothing else. They start the game, they hear fuller is safe, they believe it because the immy that showed them the ropes heard the same thing, and then all the sudden IT IS FACT.

It's too easy for every single one of us to get lulled into a false belief that mixers living topside is not only acceptable but it should be encouraged via membership pads for those who want them. This is not only incorrect but dangerous to the enforcement of theme in the game because it erodes the line between what being a corpie means and what being a mixer means.

6. Okay I read all that and you make some good points but it's still unfair that you are punishing mixers!

No one is punishing anyone. We choose the characters we play.

Do you think that the folks working as strippers at the Orifice or bouncers at the Drome are some how... less skilled roleplayers than you? Do you think that the PLAYER playing the doctor at Fuller Med who lives on Red is some how -actually- of a lower class than corporate characters?

We choose the characters we play. We play them the way we choose to play them. The theme dictates where that puts us on the class spectrum.

If you don't want to live in the Mix, get a job working for one of the big corporations in a non-service level capacity. That might mean devoting some of your UE to relevant skills, spending some time figuring out what jobs you would be good at, ICly learning some of those skills, making IC connections, getting someone fired so there is a job opening...

And then you can live on Green. And be happy, because you just roleplayed your butt off and struggled and plotted and planned and it all MEANT something.

6. This is a big change for my character.

That may be true. You may have to adjust your characters world view. The plain and simple truth is that the game is big. Really big. So big that our small and overworked staff miss things and sometimes, the theme slips and then someone notices and we correct it. We correct it in a way that makes it harder for it to slip again. We add new code and new policies and we make sure everyone knows about them and we enforce the hell out of them until they become second nature so we never make the same mistake again.

For anyone effected by this theme enforcement in an OOCly negative way, I understand your feelings and can see why you feel that way. Try to remember that this is a game that is always and continually under development. Things that are one way today will not always be that way tomorrow. Theme evolves, code changes, characters grow and die, new characters arrive, admin leave, new admin come on, new ideas are implemented and old ideas are left to die on the vine.

You adjust, you grow, you take things in stride, and you evolve with the times.

7. My boss previously told my character I couldn't go to the Mix or I would be fired.

This has been touched on numerous times but just to reiterate... that no longer applies. If you need IC clarity, speak with your boss.

8. Some service level employees can afford rent on Green without much trouble.

The game is always evolving. Five years ago there were 10 people living topside. Now there are hundreds. Yet there are the same amount of builders, coders and GMs. Auditing the rents topside is a time consuming process and something that will be done when we have time. At which point, service level workers probably won't be able to afford it.

Hell, our goal is for corpies not to be able to afford it without the subsidized housing perks their corporations offer. Especially for the upscale places. We do however, try to leave enough IC wiggle room for self made corpies that don't work for big corporations, to be able to afford to live there. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE who can afford it, SHOULD afford it.

It's a game people. Don't scratch the walls too much. Also, please remember that we can't always make the kind of sweeping changes we would like to make to the actual game world. We have to roll them out incrementally because of the sheer amount of time and effort involved, on top of the other projects we've got going.

9. Should the animosity in this thread be directed ICly?

Probably. I think a lot of folks posting here are experiencing what we in the biz call 'bleed'. Character emotions and outrage and opinions bubbling up to the player and informing opinions and emotions. It's a side effect of immersive games. Channel it. If this gives you a reason for your mixer character to hate corpies-- good.

10. Do mixers who work in the mix hate mixers who work topside?

It's not a death sentence people. Mixers go topside to get clones. Very few people are like 'oh shit you sold out to Sense/Net baka!'. It's completely situational. If you are a mixer going to your job as a bartender on Gold and you act all prim and proper but come back to the mix and bitch about the shitty corpies-- who's going to give you shit?

if you work as a medic up at a clinic and come back to the mix and patch up gangers or others in your free time-- while telling your mixer friends how you 'accidently' let a Judge die the other day... who's going to give you shit?

If you are a dancer at Korova and you come back to the Mix and tell your mixer friends how you're working on conning some fat cat corpie who loves to pay you for private dances into being your sugar daddy by getting them to fall in love with you so you can rob them blind-- who's going to give you shit!?

Your character doesn't have to actually be doing any of that. Your character doesn't have to believe what they are saying. They just have to get others to believe it. You don't have to be honest with people. You can lie to them. They will probably believe you. Convince them you hate corpies jut as much as they do-- right up until the moment that you get that sweet corporate gig you've been plotting after and you leave the scum behind in the mix forever.

If you work topside and you come down to the Mix and act like you're above it all and the Mix is gross and the people are gross, then you're going to get into some shit.

Should that stop you if that's how your character acts? NO! That's the point of the game. Play to lose is a fun way to play if you are into that like many of our players. Putting your character in difficult situations and seeing where the roleplay takes you is why Sindome is fun. Keep that in mind as you play. If you haven't tried it, you should. You'll be surprised how fun it is. It might change how you play forever.

-- Slither

Does anyone feel like risk and conflict are missing from the lives of the “real” Corpies?

Just asking because there’s a lot of “Red is supposed to suck/be dangerous/force struggle” in this thread, but that is no less true of any Corpie who has not truly become (or been born to) the status of hyper-privileged mega-elite. Even people on Blue just have that much farther to fall.

So, serious question: Do players of Mixers, clean or otherwise, think that Corpie characters don’t struggle enough to keep what they have? Do players of Corpie characters feel like their characters are too comfortable, given the theme?

That should probably be a separate thread instead of tacked onto this one.

My answer is no if you've gotten into things. But it's a yes if you're very risk-averse and skip around that all. I can't judge anyone because I don't know them though, only a mod can.

bean_dip: in corporate roles it's absolutely possible to sit around and get 'comfortable' in a low-level job. That's the wageslave life.

But if you start making the climb upward, start taking risks, maybe start getting involved in shady business on the side--you will feel the struggle. As a corpie player I feel the threat of being fired (or worse) constantly looming over my character. I suspect all corporates who make it into high-stakes positions feel the same way.

It's just not going to come to you if you don't make it happen. That's why I don't recommend topside for players who aren't as good at making their own conflict and their own fun.

It is truly possible to live a subtle yet elaborate life topside and be knee deep in intrigue. If you play to theme, take risks, and really get out there...a lot is possible. The higher you climb whether topside or in the mix - you can do more. There are characters who represent soft power. It's very possible to not see them or ever real know who they are yet they can be influencing a scheme you're meddled in.

Shit. You can be the little nobody who ruined someone's months of planning by accident.

Do what you can, do your best, and hope someone out there is returning the favor...but you kill them first.

I have a little experience, but not a lot in this field, but I'll chime in a comment all the same.

I don't notice a different feel for jobs between Corporate and Mixer jobs. They are both just things to get you weekly income and to facilitate RP. The difference is one is in the Mix where people aren't afraid to get their hands dirty and topside, where people seem to be afraid to get their hands dirty.

Stuff definitely happens topside, and it's pretty open and easy to get involved in. A lot of people just don't. But it's not the jobs fault. You can get a job in the Mix and sit back and rake in pay checks every week doing nothing just as easy.

Playing a corpie is rough because (generally) instead of running up against physical force, you get told no a lot. You can't do this, you can't go there, you can't talk to him, you can't have that, with the consequences for rule breaking generally meaning you aren't going to be playing a corpie anymore. The higher you move on the ladder the more restrictive it gets, though there are other benefits to this that go way beyond payroll. I think it's why so many people see it as boring or comfortable. If you are invested in the idea of being a corpie it can seem hard to take risks or engage in conflict without losing access to that kind of RP, so a lot of people shirk away from it.

But anyone who thinks there isn't conflict or danger topside probably hasn't logged in in a while ;)

It's true, I haven't logged in in a while. I asked because I felt like, reading this thread, there was a lot of perception that corpie is cushy lately.

Of course, we all know perceptions aren't reality and what people don't see doesn't do a hell of a lot to inform their comments.

Still - If half the players aren't seeing that struggle it made me wonder whether the other half is experiencing it.

Well, you posted in a two month old thread that was more about ambient theme than material reality, assuming this is where you're getting that perception.

Just to chime in, I think Vera has it absolutely correct. The characters who exhibit riskier behavior often don't stay corporate for long, unless they're so good at hiding it that nobody knows about it, creating a perception of less activity than likely exists. That's not to say there's the same level of conflict topside as in the Mix, but in some ways it's riskier. In the Mix, people get used to death and to setbacks. No one wants to die, lose their gear or get DCD, but you also know what you signed up for (as a player) and your character knows that they're living in hell. Corporate characters who fuck up once can have their whole career pulled out from under them and land back in an unforgiving world without friends or survival skills. So the stakes are different, and as Vera said, not everyone feels like gambling.

The last number of months it's felt like there's been a significant leap forward in terms of more visible corporate-on-corporate animosity, though, and that's something that's been exciting to follow as a spectator.

In the end, I think it's appropriate and themely for corporate play to feel different than Mix play. For one thing, topside represents an avenue of escape for characters/players who are more conflict averse, where they can still enjoy the game at their own pace.

More importantly though, the game focuses of challenges and difficult trade-offs: what's worth more, my values or my life? Do I cain on my friend now for short term gain and hope he washes out, or do I stick by him for protection later? In the Mix, the challenges might be more about day to day physical survival. Topsiders are often free to dream but also to see their dreams crushed, representing another type of dystopian ennui, one they turn to candy and virulent anti-Mixer sentiment to try and suppress.

Also over my time here I've noticed that what a corporate character can be has changed a lot. In a smaller world with less focus on corporate RP, there were a few pretty simple categories you could slot into. Now I see people picking up avenues of corporate RP that really surprise me and I think a big part of it is more staff focus on building a topside world (like with the service mixer changes) and the expanded population.

Mixers are broadly speaking either criminals, vigilantes, or victims (or all three) but corporate identities are becoming much more nuanced in a way that's been really cool to observe, especially over the last couple of months. It's neat!

Corporate RP definitely isn't comfortable or relaxing.

-Can- it be? Yeah, definitely. If you aren't willing to contribute and do nothing interesting, you can just be a slice of life character in your own little bubble. However, if you're willing to go the extra mile, you can easily create plots of your own. Maybe you don't have as much as freedom as the Mix, but there are definitely other opportunities only TopsideRP has that you can use to get what you want.