Breaking and Entering
Do we really need it?

We get a person every now and then xhelping saying they don't think their death was fair-- but we as a community are very good about appreciating dying. Just because of the 20+ years of the game you've heard a ton of complaints about dying does not justify wanting to do something that will cause much more, and also legitimate complaints. That is a logical fallacy.

Even still, this would create a huge imbalance for characters, I think.

Slither touches on this and so does Blinder, but people don't want to have to worry about the game when they're logged off. Sindome has a reputation among its critics and its active playerbase as a game that takes a lot of emotional energy and overall energy investment. And in large part that's true. People get invested. People have a severe fear of missing out.

Adding breaking and entering is going to make that skyrocket. People will try to stuff their belongings in the most secure place possible. One of the complaints about corporate play is it feels like a lot of corporate citizens don't ever really leave their apartment to put themselves at risk for conflict. Coding in B&E is going to make people across all sectors want to stay in their apartments.

Johnny, with all due respect, your counterargument is not one that aligns. Yes, people complain about being killed from time to time - but they're in game, they're not being killed while offline. Yes, people can get robbed by their roommates. But that's an active decision on the character's part to have roommates. It gives them a basepoint of where to start if they wake up and all their belongings are gone. People can get robbed if they leave their doors open - again an active decision from being inattentive.

When this conversation started up in earnest again about a year and a half ago, people brought up these points to you. How it's important that if their homes are getting robbed that it's a result of something they didn't do (like didn't close the door), making poor choices of friends through RP (roommate theft), someone else tricking them through RP to get their code or gain trust to access their apartment. Or someone getting past them with skills already implemented. All of these and reasons like them are based in one truth: it's the result of actions they did or didn't take while they were actively playing their characters and able to respond. Not when they were logged off the game and a skillcheck versus a coded security system that they may or may not be able to even afford.

Sindome can be and often is a stressful and intense environment. People don't want to worry about the game when they're logged off - it's a game, afterall. This is one of the reasons people are so uncomfortable with car theft and there's a countermeasure to protect your vehicles. In the past in these conversations, Johnny has come with a multitude of suggestions: create a game app that people could check while offline to see if their character's door was closed. Make it so our unconscious characters begin to fight people breaking into their homes if we were offline. Make it so B&E could only happen if someone of the residence was online, but IIRC they didn't need to be in the residence. Just one person attached to it online. (this one I could be remembering wrong).

But in all of these countermeasure suggestions it either involves people worrying about Sindome characters when they're offline and should be enjoying other things in life or creating a scenario where people mostly live alone and/or stay firmly planted in their apartments.

In my opinion B&E already exists - the majority of it through roleplay and plotting. I don't see how coding breaking and entering adds any positive to the game. If bloat is a true concern, as Slither wrote there are functions in the game to deal with pruning and in extreme cases GMs can step in and run a scenario where some hoarded stuff is cleared up.

I know I've wrote it a lot but I cannot stress it enough: While intense, Sindome is ultimately a game. Don't make it so people have to worry about an already heavy game while offline.

I get the idea here, but this game is already dicey and stressful enough. Having a way to relax behind a closed door (and log out and chill!) is in my opinion necessary. SD can already be challenging to balance with RL stuff (sometimes) and I think this would teeter things into an unhealthy territory. Also I think this would just be wrecking-balled in after hours in a way that isn't fun or engaging. I'm seconding the "hunt down who stole all your shit" as being unfun RP. And if you were logged off when it happened, what clues are you going to have anyway?

If cracking was going to do something like this, I'd recommend that certain locations be created that have noteable perks that can be cracked into. Say, some kind of bases with clear advantages that a group can occupy. The resources in the bases (sic amps, etc.) can be bolted down, and there can be a push-pull about occupation. (sort of king of the hill, kind of).

I think B&E situations for player pads are only warranted in heavy plot situations where like, someone is holed up and talking shit on Snakes in a Snake turf'd apartment. In that situation they could get their door cracked down. But this should be rare and only in egregious cases where the player is abusing the OOC door security.

I feel like if this was implemented widely people would just be cracking every door at 2:00 a.m. and looting all the sleepers. Regardless of who even lives there. If it was IRL you'd be waking these people up and they'd be killing you. I know this is a game and isn't the same as IRL, but it just doesn't seem engaging, realistic, or fun. It would honestly push me to quit as well.

Not everyone has the same amount of play time and this seems like it would be unnecessarily punishing for those who can't be logged in all the time.

I like the idea of sequential bases within the mix, that you could have factions play king of the hill over. Maybe, as examples of things you might find within, things like illusive cam networks, SICamped areas, sicdead areas, inbuilt semi-powerful edges that can be warred over and make having a secure tech a necessity to take advantage of this. Possibly have these bases protected by layers of security that relock each day/week/hour/minute based on the power of the edge contained within.

A sicdead area might relock every week, requiring a competent secure tech to open. But a sic amp area might relock daily, and something with a cam network, might relock every hour. Something more unique or powerful might relock the moment the door is closed and close the door after opening.

This also opens up the possiblity for player built factions/cliques to play push pull with access to these resources as well. If they are informed of them.

This would also give secure techs some collaborative and useful stuff to war over.

Another option, which would be gameplay fiat, which is to allow breaking and entry, but only for things other than apartments.

Backrooms in businesses, Storage rooms in shops, other places best left unmentioned but which have very TANGIBLE value to have access too.

That being said, is B&E fun, in it's current state? Hell no. I hated it, it involved very little RP and there was almost nothing I could do to make it fun for the victim. But most of all, it was extremely boring due to how it works. At this point, I would actively discourage any player from making this a character core or something they pursue because you won't have fun even when things go right.

Do I want B&E in the game? Hell yes. For a million different reasons. I will try and list some of them that come to mind.

-Elimination of safety bubbles. This is a huge complaint people have had since forever. Cars are safety bubbles. Pads are safety bubbles. A lot of public places are more or less safety bubbles. Your house should be safe, not unbreakable. More on that later.

-More RP and flash spent. Why do banks exist IRL? Because it would be really dumb to keep all your savings at home, unless you own a vault. Keep your money in the bank, insure your goods/house, buy security systems and protection. More on this later.

-A good way to even the field. As it stands, the only way a weaker player beats a stronger player in any fashion is social intrigue. Problem is, not everyone wants to, or has characters that are good at this. Planning a heist on someone's house would be a lot more feasible (and interesting) than paying a super solo to kill them.

-More judge/PI/forensic RP. The system would have to be expanded somewhat, but this would be fantastic. A lot of systems would have to be tweaked in fact, but nobody is under the illusion that this would be a small change.

-More faction RP. Most apartments are owned/protected by a faction. This rarely comes into play. Gangs, for example, I think a lot more people would be happy to be chummy with gangers and pay tolls if they actually protected their turf. (Yes, yes, they KIND of do, but trust me, they don't, regarding apartments).

I find it funny that in a game with permadeath, frequent killing and robbing, torture, mind-altering devices, and a ton of really unfair mechanics, people somehow think getting robbed is too much. I would MUCH rather be robbed than have my character killed repeatedly.

A few notes.

Different security measures would have to be added, obviously. Things like different locks, security systems (maybe even traps). I don't agree with Slither's take that PVE preparation isn't PVP. It absolutely is, and it exists in all forms of current PVP. Fighting someone in a SIC deadspot is PVE preparation. Using certain combat items is PVE preparation. Even just plain old drugs are.

If you live in an absolute shithole in the middle of Red, should you feel safe? Why? Being careful of whom you give your address to, installing security, moving to better places, setting up a deal with a faction... All these seem infinitely more interesting and like more RP than just heading home and logging off because you know you're 100% safe. This, funnily enough, would also create more RP topside, since discrete break-ins are a lot more feasible than combat.

I understand the point that nobody likes logging in and just finding their stuff gone, but no one likes getting murdered, either. Or any of the other awful stuff that happens every day in Sindome (a lot of which comes with as little as RP as current B&E does) The question of it is whether or not it brings good RP, and I think, a properly developed system would. It's not as if the entire dome would suddenly all shift into having the likely extremely specialized tools and skills and start robbing each other blind. People are forgetting that if you get caught, you are the highest of pariahs. Nobody likes a dip, people like burglars even less.

I dunno. I could go on, but I always though pads being as secure as they are go completely against the idea of Red sector as a whole to an almost comical level. I can talk shit to the baddest guy in the city, long as I'm comfy in my little apartment, because apparently the toughest guy in the city can't get through a shitty mix door in some backalley cube hotel.

Let players decide how much they care about their stuff. Deposit boxes in banks, storage containers, vaults, keeping things in your car, these are all options and things that could be worked in. I just think pads being impenetrable goes against everything else in the game.

Should you be able to do it when there's no one able to react? Absolutely not.

The discussions we've had about this previously included a car-electronics type security feature for doors. You could upgrade the door security to higher end models, and when they are tampered with, they will scream on SIC that they're being messed with.

If even that isn't enough, a simple check to see if there's anyone logged in inside the apartment would be a REALLY GOOD mechanic. This also makes B&E's more possible against characters that tend to hang out in their apartments, as someone who isn't home, will be codedly immune to the B&E.

There's solutions to every problem someone has with B&E, and at the end of the day, it forces people out into the world by implementing them.

>The solo can now be in your house AND kill you.

My point is that you can do it to him as well. You can't kill him, but you could hire a techie to break in. You could argue he can do it to you, too, but at least there's an even ground between a massive UE disparity, unlike with combat.

>You can hide, disguise or go other places. They have to find you to kill you, and to rob you, it can even happen randomly.

That sounds a lot like more or less not playing the game. Also won't stop anyone, they'll just move on to friends, lay traps, ruin you socially, etc etc. As before, this is also running under the assumption that they know where you live. They ALSO have to find out where you live to rob you, and get through a ton (hopefully) of defenses, unlike killing you, which they can just do more or less at will, or, as I said kill those around you if you decide to not play the game. I have never ever seen someone seriously targeted by someone stronger ever make it out by 'hiding'. It's not hard to find people, and for those dedicated? It's a breeze.

>Who cares if you're a pariah if you can take all their shit while they sleep

I dunno about your perspective, but whenever someone is really hated, from what I've seen, by a decent number of people, they get what's coming to them and either adapt/stop, or perm out. Again. Robbing people wouldn't be just 'okay i have x and y stats and a toolbelt i can now just open every door in the game.' It's not a skeleton key, just like even being max UE doesn't suddenly mean you can walk into a corp and kill an exec without any planning or repercussions.

>people stack all sorts of stuff at home, not just clothes

I addressed this. Hide stuff, more storage options, cars, hell, move stuff around. If you have 100k worth of value in your house, spend it. Use it on people, move those plots along. This is my least favorite argument, because the whole point is to GIVE people access to those plot items you're holding, to CREATE more plot.

Yeah, I have this big secret list of hot drops I use for my drug ring, too bad it's completely secure at all times so it might as well not exist.

It is handwavy, and I do get that SD is a game and needs some handwaving. But I don't agree that this is an area where it is needed. Dying sucks, not because you lose the 5k clone, but because you have an enemy. They can kill you again. They can turn people against you. They make you paranoid. Whatever I have at my place is just... Stuff. I honestly feel like people just like the fact that it's a permanent safety bubble, and that's fine, that's an opinion, but...

You want your home to be safe? Buy a nice home. Be a corporate citizen. Invest heavily into it. Make connections. A combination of the above. All of these things generate RP, action and enforce theme. Why should it be the same for everyone when nothing else is?

This sounds like a lot of work for admin, in my opinion. The return feels very low, there are better game features to work on.

Everything else I care to say has already been said.

long answer: nononononononono

geting your pad robbed at the moment (even if its the players fault for not locking up, etc) is already annoying and demotivating enough, especially for people who dont have the time to spend extended periods of time on sd daily - this would just make it even easier for the rich to get richer by pillaging apartments non stop via working with top techies (we all know this is what would likely happen)

newer players already have to worry about scratching up enough chy for a safe place each week? why in hell should they also have to worry about proper b&e countermeasures? what would they even be able to do in response?

sd is a GAME, it does not need to be any harder or stressful, especially in an area which can interfere with players OOC lives. no other game has me logging in at 2am to make sure my door is locked, and really id rather not make that stress even more acute

i would only ever be fine with a system like this if everything in sd was SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper and didnt require such an amount of time investment, but obviously that is never going to happen

On the other hand... like Slither said... I don't have a whole lot of free time to spend on the game compared to a number of our other players. The most active players will always have an advantage of those who play more casually (extraordinary individuals that know how to make the most of their 2 hours of play time excepted). I am definitely concerned that this would just be yet another gap separating those who play less frequently from those who are almost always online.

Furthermore, I'm concerned it will make people even more conflict averse if they don't have the option to occasionally take a break from being targeted or chased around the game. It's already pretty dangerous for a character challenging the status quo and pissing off the established alliances... and I want to see more of that... not less.

- Navigate a maze of vents using underappreciated skills like Secure Tech sounds great. Especially if fails involve painful death or scarring after landing in a boiler room. Use certain stat checks to limit the archetypes that can get away with this. INT/LCK maybe?

- Lesser fails can be a THUMP THUMP heard around somewhere in the apartment complex to everyone currently in it. This would give enough time to warrant someone to report it and assemble a team unless the would-be thief backs out.

- More prestigious / larger places can have more difficult / larger vent systems to navigate.

- Since you're stealing things from vents and don't want to leave a footprint, fishing minigame / claw minigame. Something like ~3 minutes per item you want to rope out of the place and up into your vent hole, visible to anyone in the room. Yanking the fished item as it's being fished breaks the thief's hook & line. Looks like they'll have to buy/attach a new one to their grappler at like 5,000c a pop or so.

- Optional suggestion: If an apartment doesn't have anyone awake inside it, make its vent inaccessible (handwaved as vents closing to preserve utility costs). This way smaller 1-room newbie places like Westinghaus aren't robbable without someone definitely seeing what's going on. In larger places, you can target someone's closet while they're in the living room, etc. More value to having a camera in your closet!

Here's a theoretical duct map of a 14-pad complex called Thirty Chirps:

While navigating the ducts, a flashlight and binoculars would be very handy to see what's ahead of you. Bedrooms and Closets tend to have more loose items than Living Rooms, so you'll find more hot vent pitfalls guarding them, each threatening a spill into a boiler room and suffering some intense heat damage, or even death if you land right into the furnace.

- Optional: Multiple exits out of the vents at each floor's lobby, so that someone caught in the vents has a slight chance to escape.

- Optional: Randomize what item the fisher catches, in order to prevent grabbing the highest-ticket items and bailing in 10 minutes. Could also make it invisible to the fisher what's in the apartment they're fishing from.

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Avenues this creates RP:

1. Hearing THUMPs in the vents can inspire fear or excitement.

2. Reports on pubSIC will almost immediately gather RP.

3. People fleeing their apartments to meta-prevent their vent from being accessed gets them out of their apartments.

4. Robbing a closet of 200 items would take 10+ hours. Enjoyment abounds for people who love fishing and potential death.

I see a lot of ways this could be made fun for everyone involved, rather than a 5-minute loot-and-go.

This is a roleplaying game. It's an interactive game. It's an intense game. I'm online more than most people. Consistently twelve to sixteen hours a day. What about the person who only has a few hours a day to play? Or less? How does this benefit them? How's it fun to log in, find all your stuff gone not because you didn't close your door, or because you trusted the wrong person, but because of a coded mechanic that happened while you were offline with no chance for you to respond or engage at all. And now you're spending your couple or few hours in-game trying to track down the cold trail of a person who hit you while you're offline.

That's not fun for the majority of people. Reefer's suggestions are a good compromise and are far more compelling short and long-term for the game in my opinion.

I love playing the game. I love what we're able to do in-game and the promise of continued coded features. But as much as I love the game, the truth for me and I suspect most people is simple: I don't want to stress about the game when I'm logged out.

Pros for letting people Break In:

* Giving people protection in their pads, both from being murdered and robbed really is an another advantage for older players. Newer characters have less to loose and this would be one of the few ways that they could actually punch up without being crushed.

* Give's ways for people to get at enemies who never leave their cube/apartment.

* Makes people diversify their stuff into lockers and other places. Yes, a place can be hit, but not likely all of them at once.

* Makes some skills more useful.

* Promotes conflict, especially among people who play at different times.

Cons for Breaking and Entering:

* Causes a lot of anxiety (as seen by this thread)

* Promotes bad RL behavior as the desire to be always in game is increased.

* It's nice to have somewhere that you don't always have to be on your guard.

* Does not directly contribute to RP and it's likely that most people will react like DIPs, shrug their shoulders and move on.

* Could disrupt plans that were months in the making.

Overall:

I think I'd rather see it in game than out. I think we need more tools to allow people to get back at their enemies rather than less. I get that people are annoyed that they lose something and there was "no RP to go with it". However, I've never gotten RP when I've been dipped. Often don't see RP on a beatdown other than it happening. No RP when crates were taken from me. So... I have a hard time with that argument... I suppose the amount of loss is less in most of those cases, but RP should not be a reason to prevent having this in game.

However, I wouldn't want to see this change without one or more changes:

1) Addition of the equivalent of rental storage facilities. They could have guards and all for you to store things into. Between something like that, lockers, and apartments, you could spread your things around to make your risk a lot less. I also like that this punishes hoarders a little in that they have to travel about to switch out gear easily.

2) A look at how long it takes to be good at something. Part of the fear of the B&E or a murder is that it can take months to get the things you need to be decent at a thing. Having that wiped out is discouraging for a lot of players. If that balance can be examined again, and perhaps shortening the curve, then the fear of loss might be a lot better.

3) It should be expensive and time consuming to B&E and Apartment complexes should have security revisited so that NPCs might find and try to stop you. That at least makes it more risky than just a skill check. Could also be another source of player jobs.

On the whole, a coded, free-for-those-skilled, breaking and entering system will be more negative than positive.

However, if there is an issue of unreachable people who never leave their apartment after causing conflict - then I would like to see something based on circumstances to allow it.

Remember - allowing breaking and entering as coded pretty much gives someone the freedom to kill a character whilst they're logged off. This is an important thing to note when we are considering adding in this feature. It's not just robbing but it is murdering someone offline.

Call me a pessimist but I doubt that those in favour of this are doing saying so because someone murdered them and are now hiding in their apartment for three weeks straight without leaving but remaining online for hours at a time... if this is the case then I do think that is a discussion you need to have with staff on those circumstances...

But what people are proposing? This will be abused like crazy. Dipping is one thing. Stealing - even killing - a player whilst they cannot even respond is a whole other thing. Will players REALLY target their enemies? It will become farming. It will be a case of 'this character has been around a few months... they seem worth breaking into'.

Now... a happy middle would be.... why not allow breaking and entering to businesses and other locations only. That would put power in those with the skillset and help push heists (even topside crime) if someone can break in without being detected. Combat characters would be hiring these 'Techies' for their skills.

That creates some great RP plots without just stomping on some player because they happen to have a few good things in their apartment... or some parent who has barely been able to log in for the last few days due to a sick child.

I will always argue against those pushing mechanics and saying RP does not matter. Roleplay is the whole reason I play Sindome and I'd hope the vast majority do too. Are people really suggesting that 'beating your enemies' whilst they are logged off is more important than good roleplay (including conflict) and building a great story together for all our characters?

For those who are stuck with being unable to reach their enemies because they turtle up? I think that merits a whole discussion about this rather than simply pushing for B&E as a cure.

Slither's comments above state that making lockers available to B&E would just stop having players use them. Wouldn't this be the same to cubes? And really, the vast majority of people using cubes are those who are new to the game or don't own a membership pad. It would punish those who are getting situated in the game or those who cannot financially afford a membership pad - both have more potential to harm RP than increase it. I'd rather have more people to RP with (especially in my timezone) than less.

Vehicles are completely different to apartments. If someone steals my car while I'm offline? Yes, I'll be pissed but it doesn't involve in my character death. Let's be real, breaking and entering an apartment is going to just result in lots of offline murders rather than thieving.

If Secure Tech people have less money making options then let's give them some that does not mess with the IC/OOC divide as much as having access to CHARACTERS while they are offline.

Let them break into backrooms of businesses. Let them be able to 'hack' the one employment terminal per and syphon some money. Let those businesses have upgradable doors... but even then, doesn't that just mean that the characters the players want B&E for to access won't be affected? The kind of characters who are 'inaccessible' are the exact ones who have the chyen to upgrade their doors.

Again, I'm all for giving more power to Secure Tech players. But if that's the case, let's make it so drivers can ram into apartment doors. Let's have players be able to hack players' brains whilst asleep and murder them.

It's a logistical nightmare to have B&E but requires staff approval - and far more of a nightmare if players can just mess with characters when the player is not present.

Roleplay is a two way street - being able to access the only safe areas for players to step away from the game and deal with stuff IRL so they can get back to more RP - will only harm the community as a whole. Roleplay when the other player is not online does not add anything to both parties.

Now a mugging? Kidnapping? Dipping? They are all effect both players - and bystanders - whilst they are IC and Roleplaying and benefits all involved.

B&E apartments just opens a huge can of worms that frankly I think is best left shut. There are other ways we can help Secure Tech characters. There are other ways we can assist players who need to hit up a character back but are struggling. There are ways we can create fun RP plots to 'hit up' those who are relatively safe.

All of these do not require breaking the IC/OOC divide which frankly is the point of apartments. It would be completely different if when logged out you cannot be murdered at all or 'disappear'.... then B&E would seem much more viable.

Your idea is something that adds RP and something that I would support, despite being so vocal against B&E.

It gets some people out of the apartment.

It creates roleplay for EVERYONE in that apartment building.

It gives power to Secure Tech.

It adds another 'layer' to buildings.

And it's been thought of with balance in mind.

I think the main issue with your idea being in this thread is it seems to me (I may be wrong) but the people want B&E to get at the characters themselves. This is more for hitting those who turtle than just wanting Secure Tech players to have more biz. Your idea is great but the ones that seems people want B&E for can afford a cabinet or safe to protect their items.

I would personally suggest you post your idea in the Ideas thread as it's less B&E and more a coded feature that seems - to me - really balanced and fun.. and I would love to see it added!

You know there are very old and clear rules about not killing or moving offline players, right? So I don't understand that part of your argument.

My comments about this are in regard to others' above about murdering characters in their apartment/cube.... or waiting for them to wake up. Naturally you can still do this of course (with other mechanics) beyond a coded B&E.

KILLING SLEEPERS

This is extremely poor form, lacks roleplay entirely, and is not codedly allowed. Finding ways to circumvent the block on killing sleepers is against the rules and will result in you being banned if it is detected (and it will be detected).

If you believe you are in a situation that warrants you killing a sleeping character you may xhelp to discuss with the admin but you are most likely not in a special situation and should not consider doing it. Imagine if you fell asleep and woke up dead and how annoying that would be.

Now imagine how many people would xhelp Staff saying things like "Joe Baka has been murdering me for weeks. And now I'm in his apartment. Can steal his shit. In reality my character would snap his neck... blah blah blah." at which point the staff would have to decide if there are exceptions or that simply you cannot murder any character sleeping in their apartment.

At which point, that still does not address the key issue at hand. Players would be getting screwed over whilst offline (and when staff are offline) when there are soooo many more ways to 'hit' a character where it hurts whilst they are online. It wouldn't be a case of getting even at the character - it would be in a grey area of farming.

It would require some conditions being in place for when the staff are not available, just to keep it in control and keep the staff able to still help us where they're needed. Or that it requires staff support... which correct me if I'm wrong, is already a thing anyway.

I'm just struggling to see where any of the reasons people are proposing go beyond simply "I wanna steal shit!".

Again, I will repeat this - if there are 'untouchable' characters that are hide in apartments (which seems to be the main stance on the pro-B&E side) then I would rather we have a mature civil discussion about how we can address this rather than simply stating Breaking and Entering will solve it and anyone who doesn't agree simply doesn't get Sindome.

I just don't see how adding this as a coded mechanic will do anything except cause bleed and players themselves to be harmed. Like many of stated above, some random Secure Tech stealing from someone's house could harm a plot involving multiple people... and not because they got wind of it through paydata but just because they wanted to loot someone's house.

I apologise for the long reply guys but I wanted to give Sly a proper response as they have raised some great points.

Firstly Farming and Help Farming are two different things. I cannot speak for others but for myself when I've mentioned farming, I mean people making B&E as their main income. Nothing to do with NPC Farming. You say players don't go massive random looting sprees.. but that's because they would have to killing and robbing people. Breaking and Entering at it's core would be enabling that would it not? It's literally a criminal occupation. Cat burglar. Which would be fun. So many are concerned that there would have to be some coded balance in play there.

To address your first point. I suspect the culture shift IC in the mix is more to do with IC reasons that I will not get into here. Though I do totally agree there has been a huuuuge change to the Mix from years ago. On the flipside, both the mix and topside seems more alive most of the day. I guess we need to find the balance now? I remember back in the day it was difficult to find new characters to RP in my timezone most of the time... and most events were very late at night. It was always hard to get into trouble for me. But now something is always going on, which is the silver lining. Though I do agree that the Mix has become far different... a different discussion for a different topic.

Robbing someone's apartment while they are offline is completely different to IC Online robbing, let's be real here. To suggest otherwise is going a bit far. If I am robbed while logged in, I get to experience my character going through the stress of that. Do I fight back? Do I allow it to happen? What's my next plan? Do I accept it as something that happened? Or do I track down that person? How will I get revenge!? There's so many story threads to go off that my character and (I as a player) have available.

Now imagine you log in and all your crap is gone. You don't know what happened. You just have to try and find out. Yes, you could get RP from that. Yes you could hire a forensics expert or something. That would give them more RP, sure. But the concern by many is someone can come in when they know your character is asleep (due to timezones) and simply rob them. If they do so without being detected, they are a ghost.

Now for many things, I would praise this. Someone rat me out and I have no idea who it was? Well played. Someone dip me and I have no idea who did it? Well played. Someone who sent me a threat on SIC and I have no[/i] idea who it was so I am so immersed in my character that I become super paranoid? Well fucking played.

But at the end of the day, if we are going to have no IC/OOC divide then this will conflict with basic advice given to new players. Players are advised to log out if you they experiencing bleed from IC events. We are told that you need to log out in safe locations otherwise, there could be consequences. I agree people should not be hoarding hundreds of thousands worth of gear in their apartment, especially if they are doing shady ass things... but Slither said this is not an issue?

On the flip side, Sindome by design is a long term investment. You work hard for weeks, sometimes months, to obtain something. Yes, you should know you may lose it soon. But imagine you spent ages (with limited time around work, unlike many who can log in longer due to working from home....ect) to finally get an item that will help you in a plot or an IC profession.... and then you are robbed the next day whilst logged off.

Not whilst carrying it around - after bragging to others let's say - which results in someone mugging you. Not because Joe Baka, your rival, saw you and wanted to fuck with you. Just because you needed to sleep IRL and someone knew you go to sleep at a certain time. To go back to Slither's start to this thread, we are here to RP together, which without a doubt you are here for too.

Just because someone does not support B&E does not mean they are conflict adverse. They just want to be present for the conflict. They want themely things they can experience themselves. I do think that it's important to discuss that balance would be key here. Yes, you could rationalise that all the Red buildings are crap security. Okay.... so then are only those who have been playing longer who have the funds to upgrade it going to be fine whilst others are not? It depends how expensive upgrade systems will be. They can't be cheap, because then everybody will have them. Flipside, if they're too expensive, only the already 'untouchables' will have them.

I would love a balanced B&E system. But then at the same time, we have items that cost more than half a year's rent when in reality those items should be far cheaper. Why? Balance. I just cannot fathom how you can balance this. If you rent a shitty cheap apartment or cube to save money? Fine... you should be more at risk than someone who upgraded that shit.

But again, this has a lot of potential to benefit those who can log on more, have played the game longer or have more chyen/toys and everyone else. Some people are already struggling to punch up. This will just make some people even more untouchable - "Don't mess with me or I'll rob everything you own." is this in theme? Well, yes. But is it fair. The Mix isn't fair IC but by fair I mean does it benefit the community and player base?

As others have stated this seems it would not only require a lot coding but a restructuring of balance that will take some time to adjust. If the staff can come up with a balanced way to do it, I'm sure they will. It's more they want to know what people think of it. There's a reason this is still not fully coded in the game yet. And although we've had a lot of features recently that will start to slow down. From my laymen eyes, B&E seems a lot of coding across the whole dome that will require plenty of testing by the staff and working out how to implement into the game with limited bugs and not break the game. This won't just affect apartments but every single coded door.

As for your final comment Sly, I can agree that the 'strongest' (whether financially, influentially, physically...ect) characters throw their weight around without just crushing anyone for the sake of it just from reputation... as it should be. My original concerns about the looting spree is that dipping allows you (or others) to spot it. It's a skill check from the dip to the target. Whereas a coded B&E is coded against the environment... more than likely when the 'target' is sleeping/offline. So there's no response (unless obviously other PCs are by chance in the hallway or Staff Puppet NPCs).

My concerns above have been with it being much safer to do against a player than dipping, kidnapping, attacking, murder....ect... especially when timezones are different between both parties. It will be the new META over dipping. It's brings an OOC element into IC play in a grey area on whether it's fair or not or if a 'fair play' stance will be taken by those breaking in.

I get the feeling you and others assume that myself and others that are opposed to B&E are also opposed to conflict or 'don't get Sindome'? That's not the case. I'd rather someone hire a solo to rough me up if my character pissed another character off than be robbed whilst sleeping IRL... at least then I, the solo, my 'enemy' all get involved RP that can develop into a deeper plot. It's not childish to be wary of players simply robbing players whilst they sleep rather than do anything more 'risky' with this feature. I have a job. I should be able to focus on that job and return back to SD and immerse myself in SD without seeing months of work down the drain just because a hackiboi hacked a door because they needed chy.

Maybe B&E only being available whilst the player is logged on could work... but then, that could also cause some players to hide in the apartments more. It's a very difficult way to balance this in a way that it's both fair but not a pointless mechanic (which is a conclusion I'd like to think all players would love to reach) and I think this is the main hurdle.

Now I fully expect older players to follow what you said Sly and I think it highlights the only real way fair way to have B&E in game. Those who have plenty of UE or influence and such are not going around targeting people randomly. The concern seems to be to those who won't restrain themselves as such. Why should someone lose 5 months of collecting items for a specific plot because someone a few weeks into the game has the required skills and tools to break their door. So having B&E as a "high skill/stats based" feature of Secure Tech is something I could get behind purely because the people having it would more than likely have the PLAYER experience to not go around robbing random people. In fact they could enable 'hitting up' in exchange for as a "Tech Solo". These "Tolos" would have no reason IC to go around just robbing everyone for flash constantly either... because like you said previously Sly, they would be seen worse than a dip.

This discussion has been tiring for me, so what I would like to leave for those continuing the discussion - everyone's comments are worth discussing here. If they weren't, the staff would be discussing this in private, not Slither making this thread. But things are starting to get a little bit heated. If my own comments did get anyone's backs up, that was not my intent, and I apologise. But Please cut down on the passive aggression chummers.

Let's all debate with smiles... we all grit our teeth and talk shit enough at each other IC.

>Breaking and Entering at it's core would be enabling that would it not? It's literally a criminal occupation. Cat burglar. Which would be fun.

Part of the reason I'm very interested in this topic is because I've played that character. I'd go as far as to say it was their main source of income throughout their life. And I can tell you that even the very secure apartments in the upper sectors can be broken into with some creativity, completely silently. That is also a very good reason why I'd want to see this system, because the current one is... Awful. You are already completely exposed to those horror stories of coming back to find your apartment empty. I don't want that. I want people to be able to defend their apartments. I want a full system behind it so it's not as unfair and un-interactable as it currently is.

>...are only those who have been playing longer who have the funds to upgrade it going to be fine whilst others are not?

Yes. Just outright yes. Because that's how the entire rest of the game works. If you're an immy, and you don't have a clone, you need to be careful. If you're strong enough, you probably can avoid paying tolls. If you're wealthy, you can threaten and resolve problems with your currency. The entire game is balanced around how old your character is.

>But again, this has a lot of potential to benefit those who can log on more, have played the game longer or have more chyen/toys and everyone else. Some people are already struggling to punch up.

The game is already benefitting people who log on more on every level except UE (and even that, not everyone has enough time to log on every day and get the max amount). If this was a problem, the entire game would have to be restructured from the ground up. I've been vocal about how I don't like how /much/ value the game puts on UE and logged on time, but time spent and UE should still have considerable value.

And no. It's meant to even the playing field. Yes, the solo can threaten you with robbing you blind, but he could already threaten that, if they really wanted to. Plus killing you, torturing you, all the other stuff. The only difference the B&E system would make is that now, you can also do it to them. There's a venue of opportunity that's linked with preparation and material resources, instead of just pure UE. Are they still going to have a big advantage? Pretty likely, but at least it's a possibility, unlike combat.

>My original concerns about the looting spree is that dipping allows you (or others) to spot it. It's a skill check from the dip to the target.

Yes, but is there a choice there? Is there any actual input? Is there anything you can do, there, in the moment, to stop it? No. If the dip is good enough, you'll only notice later and will likely not be able to do a thing about it. Yeah, you can invest into the stats to spot them but that's not really an argument, since you can also invest in your own apartment security. It's the same thing.

>My concerns above have been with it being much safer to do against a player than dipping, kidnapping, attacking, murder....ect... especially when timezones are different between both parties.

Take it from me, it's much easier to kill someone than it is to rob them, in most cases. And also take it from me, most people will care a lot more about their things than they do their life. This thread is proof of that.

Timezones are timezones. There's nothing we can do about them. If you're in the wrong timezone, you're already going to miss a ton of stuff and the game can't change or bend to accommodate for that. If I play in the early hours of the morning and this person I'm feuding with plays at night, and they're messing with my business, attacking my friends, etc, I can't do anything about that.

I will say that I think even in a very optimistic case where this is implemented thoroughly and fairly, the playerbase would generally not like it, and for that reason, I don't want it because it'll push players away. I wish people had a different perspective, but it is what it is. I've known there is very little trust between players for a long while and that's partly justified, but... Just a shame that (in my opinion) the game suffers because of it.

Breaking and Entering is fun when its done through RP. While its a bit upsetting for a short time, having your stuff stolen because you were out maneuvered and let your guard down and so input #1 got her various buddies together and robbed you to remove X plot device and X important materials from your apartment to hinder your progress ends up being fun because of the ensueing RP, either in the Mix with the gangs or TERRA (like it had been in the past on occasion), or topside with the Judges/Corps/your varying friends being vigilantes. You can prevent some of this happening if you have hidden items, safes, etc, but it leads to line of roleplaying. I could even extend this to have this be included with something like secure tech or electro tech with hackers needing to access the grid and have specialized equipment that require x y and z to work, depending on the door. This would open up opportunities for breaking and entering not just in apartments, but in buildings with eye scanners, hand scanners, and the like.

Breaking and Entering on the flip side, was not fun when apartments that used to have flimsy key hatches existed. It allowed a fairly low-UE character to do something to get to said hatch, kick it in, and get all your stuff with little to no RP, circumventing the door you paid to have secured, usually for a pricey rent. It seems that this is the kind of Breaking and Entering people are against.

Breaking and Entering as a concept is good - I would love to be able to sneak around the corps, using my partners B and E skills to be able to get through doors, disguise to try to pass as a worker, all that stuff. Breaking and Entering on apartments without some kind of over site or checks however, would cause some issues just because of the inherent nature of no one being around/able to respond while it happens.

Maybe it could involve a modification of the buzz feature on apartments, forwarding an email. Maybe its something that would require the RP be done, but the opening of the door wouldn't be immediate, allowing for both inner and outer RP in regards to noticing if the breaking in was happening (kinda like how tattoos take x amount of time depending on skill).

Sindome is a wonderful escape but as many have already mentioned, can easily become a stressful environment as it is. There are already many ways in which you can lose even paltry wealth and items you've scraped for over the course of weeks, MONTHS, that some players can't easily replace or just go hunting for it back like everyone will suggest outside of 'oh well get over it'. For all the insistence others will make that you have options for retribution after theft or murder, my personal experience has not yet proven that correct. It is VERY difficult to find answers, and if you were robbed blind good luck affording paydata if you even happen to find someone who may actually know something relevant.

This game is already a massive timesink for better or worse, whether it's in the race to make money, fostering your relationships with other characters or both. It kind of inherently makes you feel obligated to log on every day for at least a few hours, the last thing this game needs as others have already touched on is the added and ultimately unfair element of B&E while you're offline sleeping or working or just trying to get AFK for a bit.

If someone wants to break into an apartment, they can do so through methods that ALREADY EXIST like waiting for the owner to open my door and sneaking inside with them.

The caveat to that? If we could work a system that makes it possible only when a player is logged in. Maybe apartments with internal locks link to a character's sic chip - and drops a mag bolt when the player goes offline. Maybe within proximity. So you'd have to be in the room and logged out to protect you from being robbed while

Or, for those talking about the mix is too soft in another thread, just pay a premium in flash for that kind of security. You want surefire protection from B&E? The apartments 5k a week instead of 1.5. Something like that.

Again, just ideas if B&E is developed in, but I'm leaning toward nah.

I also think that if this does get added it should only be a super high tier so that not just anybody can break in, and should have a relatively long cooldown/use a disposable item so that if B&E does happen it should happen against a specific target and not some poor random immy trying to save up their crate earnings.

Also should have countermeasures in place, maybe you can buy civilian grade autoturrets, alarm security systems, deathrobot guards.

Also for different apartment buildings there could be innate security systems with the more expensive apartments having better protection like NPC guards that wouldn't hesitate to smash a baka's face in if they tried anything sussy to a door. Would definitely add more benefits to having a high end apartment.

Also big yes to a lot more breakable doors to non-apartment stuff, would be cool to run a heist on a business or corp or go in for big risk kidnap and ransom things.

Wild misinterpretation of what I said. At no point did I encourage people to never leave their apartments. I do encourage people, however, to use their apartments so that they can engage with the world at their own pace and on their own terms, leaving when it is more safe for them to do so rather than just never leave at all.

Again, I never advocated for people to hide in their apartments and never come out. I advocated for people to use the safety of their flats to engage with the outside world at their own pace. If they never leave their flat, they've already lost, so who cares?

Letting people become tyrants...' People already are perfectly capable of perming you, ruining your life, job, faction, whatever with more or less complete impunity and all they need to do it is a relatively small playtime advantage over you to do it. B&E IS in the game already, it's just not done often because it's incredibly boring to do.

It's also worth thinking about that maybe people would be less 'pop in, instakill, pop out' if they didn't have to be. Now they can come to your home. Actually take the time to RP, maybe (god forbid) even give you a chance to save your life. Now they DON'T have to just kill you over and over until you're goo.

Two arguments here, first that people are already capable of ruining your life and killing you and destroying you. So why do they need more tools to do so? If you removed the last place someone can breathe in the game, people would quit. Including me. Taking that away will completely homogenize the Mix and there would be no conflict, because the biggest and baddest would have destroyed their enemies last place they can exist without getting ganked.

Secondly, you assume a base level of altruism in a game where altruism is actively discouraged. Don't know what to say there. You think it will be used to spur conflict-ending RP and negotiation, I know it only be used as a way to completely demolish people who oppose the status quo.

And all mechanics aside, there's always options. Run topside, move houses discretely (keep a safehouse?), hide out in the badlands for a bit, find one of the many hidey holes scattered throughout the game, change your identity, hell, maybe, just maybe, concede to the obviously overwhelmingly more powerful person? No, much better to sit in a cube for weeks barely playing or interacting with people until either of you gets bored and drops it.

All I'm gathering from this is that you believe that any group with the highest aggregate UE should instantly win every conflict and that there shouldn't be any method for players to punch up without getting instantly evaporated every day they log in. 'Just run topside' or 'hide in the badlands' is just, as I said, homogenizing the Mix to the point of stagnating conflict. Keeping apartments and living spaces is almost impossible to keep secret on account of the limitations of playing a game where only a limited number of people are represented in a city where there should be millions. Conceding is exactly the issue here.

'Just simply do not ever get into conflict with people who are stronger than you' is an awful take and is representing all of what I hate about breaking and entering.

Which is a fancy way of saying leave the apartment when your would-be killer is offline. I don't have to explain on why this is basically the same as not leaving the apartment.

Two arguments here, first that people are already capable of ruining your life and killing you and destroying you. So why do they need more tools to do so? If you removed the last place someone can breathe in the game, people would quit...

Because if there are already tools for doing the same thing, more tools wouldn't change the game in any major way. If someone wanted me permed bad enough, and I just camped a cube most of the time, I'd still end up permed. It'd just take longer and be awful for everyone involved. I've seen this happen, many times.

And, most crucially, your cube ISN'T the last bastion of safety in the game. That's also what I'm getting at. There are plenty, PLENTY of safe areas and alternatives than just your own, specific pad, you just don't want to use them (because up until now, you haven't had to).

Secondly, you assume a base level of altruism in a game where altruism is actively discouraged.

In no way does the game discourage RP altruism. That is all the playerbase, and as I stated, there is no altruism SPECIFICALLY because of things like impenetrable cubes.

If someone can only kill you in the brief, tiny period you are vulnerable, of course they're not going to make a show about it. They're going to be brutal and quick, hence, shroud instakills.

All I'm gathering from this is that you believe that any group with the highest aggregate UE should instantly win every conflict and that there shouldn't be any method for players to punch up without getting instantly evaporated every day they log in.

In no way did I even suggest this. I said high UE players already win by a landslide, not that I liked it or encouraged it, and as such, additions such as this would not change the status quo one bit. And again, hiding in an impregnable cube and coming out when it's safe isn't a 'method of punching up'. It's not playing the game. A method to punch up would be a bodyguard, counter-assassination, blackmail, disguises, etc.

'Just simply do not ever get into conflict with people who are stronger than you' is an awful take and is representing all of what I hate about breaking and entering.

Also a completely made up statement. I said if you get into a conflict with people who are stronger than you, you SHOULD take measures to defend yourself, instead of hiding in an invulnerable bubble that makes no IC sense, or you will and should lose. You want to hide? There's a skill for it. There's IC places and other systems for it. Sitting in a cube is using your OOC knowledge to protect yourself IC. End of story.

The real sad irony of all this arguing is that B&E already exists. Worst of all, it doesn't take any tools or expenses or anything, and there are many PCs capable of it. It doesn't happen regularly because it has risks associated with it, like everything else in the game. Perhaps even more ironic is that I have used this stuff before SPECIFICALLY to fuck over people stronger/more connected than my PC at the time. And it worked. And (AFAIK) nobody even gave much of a shit, most of the time. Because getting inside someone's home doesn't suddenly mean you have access everywhere, or that you can't get caught, or that you can carry everything, or that the home/biz even has anything you'd want to take, or that any unique, truly valuable stuff I might've gotten is going to suddenly disappear from the game.

But apparently, a more robust, well-thought out system would suddenly mean all these high end PCs would start breaking into lowbies' homes and cleaning them out. I hate this random idea that is propagated constantly that high end PCs just run around stepping on people's necks because they can. They don't, and designing the game around this awful mistrust of players is incredibly limiting to the game's potential. If I didn't trust the players/staff as a whole (generally speaking) I wouldn't play the game.

If a player suddenly does not have any safety to fall back on, they will not continue to engage in conflict as before and simply capitulate when they lose, they will avoid conflict in the first place.

In general, the more risk a player perceives the more cautious they will be. If players believe they have no safe haven they will carefully avoid ever reaching the point at which they would need one.

There is a strong precedent for unrealistic but player-positive systems that give consideration to unavailable players despite character persistence, like sleeper protections and voiding uncontrolled characters.

All active players have effectively self-selected for their risk tolerance to the current state of the game. I think the introduction of disruptive new mechanics, which may significantly change the perception of that risk profile, could have negative impacts on player activity. Given the extremely niche potential player population to draw on, I think that is itself a risky proposition this late into development.

- Firmware upgrades to locks

- Firmware version would provide protection against hacking items of a lower version

- Firmware updates released periodically, with consideration for 3 month GM breaks, and occasional vacation characters

- Hacking kits would be released *after* the firmware upgrades. Probably a week or so? Whatever seems fair to gives everyone a chance to get the update. The version of these would correspond with the version of software on the lock they're intended to attack. From a programmer standpoint, this would be an arbitrary integer attached to the child object, and shouldn't consume too many server resources.

- There would be a slight monetary cost for the firmware update, and it might only be available from kiosks at tech shops, located around the city.

- PCs would have to leave their apartment, and either have enough disposable income to eat the expense, or be actively earning income to keep up to date

- Primary code to apartment might need to be provided for firmware update, ensuring either the apartment owner is not having a friend perform it while they stay inside, or they've put their residence at risk by trusting another individual with the ability to take over the residence.

- Initial rent/payment on apartment or club membership might come with a courtesy OTA (Over The Air) update to the firmware, but as the renter, it is your responsibility to maintain it afterwards.

Apartments on green/blue might have better locks that are harder to break, or simply have the option of a better upgrade (maybe the kit is more expensive for this, simply has a rate of failure that's higher than the other, or both), with "premium" security updates available, but might require a licensed security tech (PC) to perform the update.

Ultimately considerations behind the idea are these:

- Active PCs are not punished simply for not being online, either with the frequency/duration that other PCs are able to play, because something happened IRL, or because other PCs are deliberately waiting for them to log out so they can engage uncontested (which is boring).

- Inactive PCs, or "hermits" who remain inside their apartment or don't generate income in some manner will be vulnerable to break ins. This allows circulation of resources that are otherwise locked/unobtainable due to long term club memberships, which don't actually require that you are actively playing.

- A single, solo individual won't be able to stay inside their apartment and avoid B&E. They will either have to trust someone else who has full access, or keep the firmware updated themselves.

- Potential looters won't be able to just stockpile the resource and go on a spree; they will have to actively seek out and purchase the newer kit to break into an apartment that has been maintained recently.

It simply requires data and/or espionage based RP, sufficient prep, and healthy respect for potential IC consequences, which can be extremely severe depending on your target.

Or coming up with ways to cover your ass if you're caught.

These are my favorite parts about B&E as it exists now, and a lot of it goes right out the window if we create door crackers.

That said, someone did suggest during a MacGuffin discussion, and I am paraphrasing this from memory so apologies if I garble it a little, the idea of having a special room in corporate HQs (presumably just off the lobby, not buried too deep) that MacGuffins must be kept for a certain amount of days to complete them. This room would then have a unique type of verification door that could be opened with the right skill check.

This has the advantage of being relatively simple, giving CorpSec a specific mandate and threat, while having a payoff that isn't really too swingy in resources if someone snatches it or them. The main downside I could see would be that MacGuffins might be too abstract and involved a reward to go to the trouble over but it could be tuned.

It does concern me that people will start getting cleaned out on the regular. Scrolling way back up to some of the older posts, Sly discusses this shouldn't be an issue. You should care about dying over and over more than being robbed.

I disagree. Building a cache of items for plots or function takes time for most people. In a game that revolves around the material, those things sometimes represent progression almost as much as UE. Dying is one of the least expensive punishments the game offers. Five kay and you're back in the fray. Should you be existentially terrified of dying anyway? Debatable. Watch Altered Carbon for an example of life where you potentially live forever if you aren't murdered. No one gives a shit about death as long as they have a stack to reboot from. It's up to the character to decide what they believe and how they act about death. Unless you're receiving one the big punishments, cost is the major deterrent to RP into consequences. The cost of death is like Bill Gates getting a parking ticket. Unless you're getting chain vatted.

Some people keeps six figures worth of gear in a place. It might be part of their core function as a character even. Imagine having to buy 20 clones in five minutes. That's what just happened if you're robbed of a 100k cache. It's a lot for some to recover from.

All that said, I do not think for a second that cooperative competition will be considered when the floodgates open for B&E. Without rules that prevent homesteads from being cleaned out, people will quit. (As Reefer mentioned similarly way back in the older posts). Those caches simply represent too much progress to lose at once for a lot of people.

That's why B&E needs to be done responsibly in the first place, and another reason I like it the way it is. You do have to put effort into it to A. Do it well in the first place B. Give the victim RP C. Hold to the spirit of cooperative competition and not completely cripple another player in one felled swoop out of simple greed.

The first reason is difficult and sometimes tedious enough to deter most players from wanting to do it in the first place.

The second can be equally difficult if you aren't creative, and makes the first reason all the better for being a deterrent because it means there are less players robbing people blind with no RP at all. Sly also mentioned a while back that it's almost impossible to give RP with break ins as they are. I can only say that's 100% wrong. I've given RP more often than not when doing it in the past - from minor things to major. As long as you look at the stolen goods as a means to RPs end, instead of a quick vector to a fixer's flash, RP exists. If you can't think of RP for this, it may be that you're thinking like a petty thief instead of a plotter. Small time vs big time.

Stolen goods can be leveraged, scams can be run against the victim with it, sold back or given back in exchange for favors. There's so much RP potential in stolen gear. Anyone that plays combat characters and has ever gotten hands on a merc's loadout knows this. It's no different here - except you have to WORK to give this RP to a B&E victim. Cause combatants are gonna have the RP in combat at the very least. Usually.

As for cooperative competition. I think it speaks for itself. It could be just me, but when I used to do B&E's I had to very consciously tell myself not to clean people out. To pick and choose a few choice items based on my perception of the character's wealth/assets. A WAI suit, but not a quickterm. Certainly not two WAI suits. A locked e-note with juicy data over an expensive weapon. By the time I reached the end of that character's life, I only filled my pockets if the victim was obviously filthy rich. It took time for me to understand the importance of prudence when considering how entire cleanouts would affect people as people, not as characters. I did clean anyone out when I started doing it as a newer player. I wish I hadn't, because some of them disappeared soon after and I think it was my fault.

The necessary steps to commit B&E right now are a typically stringent enough barrier to entry that it can't easily be abused. Those steps are also quite fun if you're into that sort of RP, and I don't want to see them go away.