Caressing into the kill
What to do when surrender is offered

What do you do however when that death is consensual and there is no fight in the victims?

In my experiences, my deaths have been quick, even when I've tried to engage in RP with my killer, they are content to simply kill me without giving me a chance to react.

While this makes sense for some cases it does not for others.

I've tried to work this a bit into my character, but even then, it's hard.

Combat is quick. RPing should not be. There should be a build up.

If you're doing a planned killing, and the target comes to you willingly, coarsed or otherwise, this is a moment for amazing RP. And in several moments on my characters, both of them so far, I've had that stress and anticipation build and build and then expect to get this scene, where a killer comes in, grabs me, and takes me someplace safe(for them), and rolls out the plastic, and then puts a bullet in my brain. Yknow the whole last cigarette before you die sort of thing.

Instead I've typically gotten some variation of, randomly attacked with a "DIE BITCH!" and slaughtered in a very public location. Then 15 minutes of anticlimax staring at the screen having been murderhobo'd to death. I'm not saying that this is an utterly bad thing in every situation... However I am saying that it's a very one sided and discouraging thing, from an OOC perspective...

And I think we can do better.

I see what you're saying, but that feels a -little- meta-gamey to me. That's a player saying "Well, I know my character's disguise skill is garbage, so I'm going to exploit the combat system to make sure that no one has any time to RP so that I can avoid IC consequences".

"It's not meta if character knows they can't keep a convincing disguise up for long."

It's meta if you as a player know this, so you as a player choose not to make an entry post, perform any RP whatsoever, or really do anything outside of 'attack '.

I keep being told this is an RP game, so where's the "RP" in that?

the character knows they cannot keep their disguise, and they don't want to get in trouble/be caught/get judged/ID'd, so they simply decide to quickly finish the job.

how is it meta that a character knows what they are good at and what they aren't? if you ask my character how good they can use a rifle they will tell you they're shit at it, or average, or good -- the point is characters obviously know their skillset lol

"Free Cyberpunk Roleplaying

Sindome is an online text-based Cyberpunk Role Playing game (RPG) inspired by Neuromancer, Judge Dredd and more. You play online in real-time with other people. You'll develop a unique character with a past, thoughts, dreams, and secrets. Because roleplaying is required, there is an expectation that your character will have reasons for their actions. We've gone beyond your typical roleplaying text game. You don't decide your character's success or failure, the game does. Most everything you do will depend on the stats and skills your character possesses. This includes understanding languages, perception, combat, and a vast array of other things you can do."

To your second post. Choosing to not make any emote/pose/say is an OOC choice. Your character entered the room a certain way, holding a gun or sword perhaps, maybe with murderous intent. simply typing "go w" waiting for the room desc to pop up and hitting enter on the 'attack person' you already had typed out isn't RPing with people, it builds no inter-character conflict or leave any room for one party to beg and plead for their life.

It's playing a purely mechanical 'I kill x player and get $$$'. If we're going to do that, then I would suggest the devs just put in a bunch of NPC mobs for people to kill.

as for where the RP occurred, if not at the end, there would still be a beginning and middle, no?

doughboy offends johnson in the drome

johnson reaches out to doughboy 2 to exact revenge on this prick

doughboy 2 stalks doughboy, pays informants, hires backup, buys a bigger gun/knife/sword, chromes up in preparation for the hit

perhaps doughboy is aware there's a contract on his head because johnson informed him, because that's how he rolls and he doesnt give a fuck. so doughboy takes the necessary precautions. he moves flats, tries to make himself untraceable, alternates disguises everyday

despite all this, doughboy 2 catches doughboy slipping one day outside one of his safe houses. doesnt say much, just pops out of the shadows and sends him to the vats quickly because he knows doughboy's crew will be rolling up to the spot soon after doughboy called out for help on SIC

with the whole storyline i just drew up, which is very common in the game, is it really a bad thing that with all that buildup, it simply ends in a flurry of bullets and a message after the victim pops out of the vats to stop fucking around with the wrong people?

"your logic is like saying people who play DnD aren't roleplayers because there are rolls involved in DnD too when you get into certain situations, including combat. you don't tell the GM what your character does and the GM responds what the NPC does and then you respond what your PC does in combat etc etc."

Wonderfully constructed strawman argument.

You know what it's called when players in D&D just kill everything they come across with no interaction?

Murderhoboing

I've been made aware that that's a term that the players in Sindome are familiar with too, and it's discouraged. Are you telling me that the way to play Sindome is to be a murderhobo, and anyone who doesn't is just a chump who deserves to have their character killed for daring to play a non-combat character?

Despite the apparently abrupt ending of plots where you're hanging out at the Drome and in less than 10 seconds you see The Scroll there is usually a context behind each death. Rarely they're random. So if you "kill X and get $$$" it's because X fucked up and insulted Y or crossed them somehow, and Y hired Z to kill X, and X's RP to get to Y involves much more than just hack and slash, directly affecting both X, Y, and Z. See the bigger picture.

That said, whether this is a 'fast combat MOO' or not, I do hope that in the situations where it's possible, people will give as much RP to those they're murdering as they reasonably can. Even if the character is about to vat out and not remember that shit you said to rub their face in it just before you did them in, the PLAYER will, and they're here to RP just like you are. SD is also RPI / RP enforced. You're weaving a narrative experience for everyone you engage with, whether it's with a pose or a gunshot.

To be certain I want to make clear that the context of the above post is EXTREMELY vividly explained. I am talking about giving to people who have surrendered, or appear to have surrendered, as well as new players and characets who cannot really fight back against a trained fighter. I'm not talking about the bar room brawlers feud being RPed out rather than just getting into that fucking barfight or anything like that. I'm talking about specific circumstances where maybe playing a little bit of soft ball with a player will engender a better sense of RP and community both OOCly and ICly.

So next a hypothetical, You have someone who has surrendered, who has no real contacts capable of fighting you, who has volunteered to come to where-ever and whatever end you want. Who has clearly surrendered to the death to come. And has made that clear on numerous occasions.

What do you do?

And more importantly which provides more enriching and worthy rp of the situation described.

A: Invite them to a crowded area and murder them within 3 seconds of walking into the area with no lead in or anything of the sort?

B: Show them a good time, give them a scene, give them a cigarette/coffee/last meal, and, and lay out the tarps to put a bullet in their skull?

C: Call them suicidal, refuse to perform the job, and get the fuck out of there.

D: Literally any option other than A.

I'm basically talking about people you as a player might as well be invulnerable against.

I've had good scenes and bad scenes with the deck stacked against me, but there was a recent one that irritated me beyond measure. Mostly because I had to basically defend the game, the staff, and the community to a newbie afterwards as they fumed. And it inspired this thread, because they didn't want to make it, fearing that they'd get called out for not being a 1+ year player. And basically fearing being told to just sit down and shut up.

Very rarely are they happy about the situation.

If you're a solo doing a hit, chances are you don't want to get caught. There are so many people moving through rooms all the time, that you could totally get accidentally rolled up on mid-act. Also, showing just a moment of mercy for a pose could allow your disguise to slip, or the person to get away somehow. If you're trying to make a rep as a solo, or you've gambled all your chy on dough, weapons, and candy for the hit. You're likely going to be as quick and efficient as you can.

I've had this happen to me, no warning, just filled with lead. I lost a TON of stuff. I would have been mad about it, but I've played this game for a while and it didn't hit me that hard. I can see how some people can feel upset about this, but it's the way of combat in SD in general. I do want to say that just because I got super-popped out of nowhere does not mean I didn't get RP. When I vatted out I was ICly livid, and managed to bitch and moan my way into some more information, which lead me closer to some really bad-ass people. This may not always be the case. Hopefully if someone does waste you suddenly, they'll throw you a bone when you vat out. Sometimes the lack of a message is also scary, and RP-fodder itself.

You're so small to them that you aren't even worth giving a message to. That's pretty fucking CP, and murder is so commonplace in the mix, that it seems themely as well. Having this happen to your player could definitely lead to some big changes. Paranoia, more combat training, maybe they get into disguises. Who is after them, why, and what can they do about it?

If we really want to encourage more of this drawn-out murder kind of scenes, I'd suggest giving more tools to potential solos or gankers that limit potential for vision and/or sic for the victim. I think it's been suggested before, but if you could apply a bag over the head of a victim when they're unconscious, that would go a LONG way towards making this sort of thing happen. You could then drag them to a room with no sicnal and RP to your heart's content. If I had someone handcuffed and a bag over their head I'd get them wherever I wanted, pop on a false voice, and talk MAD shit. Sicnal wouldn't be as much of an issue here because all they can do is act scared and plead for help.

I think the code for "dark rooms" and cyber-eyes might be able to be leveraged by a hooded bag, but I'm no coder. Maybe thermos or other eye-chrome could still work through it?

As it stands, even if you go to the trouble of finding someone, beating them silly, dragging them to a location, you're going to risk them shouting locations as you're dragging them along. And even when you get there they could ID you and rat on you as soon as they get a moment's sicnal. Add to this what other people have said, where the two-weeks into the dome character who's scooped ice cream in Arizona for years refuses to budge during torture by a literal monster who's looking for paydata for a plot.

If there were maybe disposable hoods, or one-time use expensive temporary sic disablers that could be applied to a victim, I think we'd see more of this (I'm aware of current solutions, their could be further options though). As it stands, solo work is risky, and asking someone to play to lose in this situation is difficult when every second counts and any small graces to the victim could have massive repercussions.

So this means that I will generally have my characters take every reasonable IC measure they can to survive. They will try and run off. They will try to call for help. They will try and spin the scenario to make people want to help them and hurt their attacker. They will try to get revenge. And most any attacker would expect this from every person they go after. And to be honest, some can be really cheap about their 'defensive measures'.

Most victims have the same will to survive and most attackers expect this. While there might be occasions where the victim has opted to not call for help and to not escape, the attacker doesn't know this. So this kind of fun RP tends to only happen when the attacker has decided that those things (getting stopped or identified or the target escaping) are unlikely or don't matter to them. To be frank, the attacker sets the pace.

On the flip side there is a culture aspect to this as well. If we as victims are always uncooperative and do everything we can to thwart or remove the fun from scenes like these, then we are essentially -pushing- attackers to assume the worse and act in a way to counter it.

I do my poses and make my speeches when I can, but ninety percent of the time the target either freezes up and does nothing or turns out to be totally immune to fear and pain even though they're like a nobody bartender or something.

It basically really does come down to that. Even if they've got the shakes, hell it doesn't need to be them responding, just a,

"Is this the target?"

"Yes sir."

*BLAM*

Before the action begins. Is all to takes to set the scene and make things memorable, and not feel like an anticlimax of staring at a screen for 15 minutes frustrated and alone to deal with the death...

(Edited by Johnny at 5:58 pm on 3/5/2020)

Good talk.

In the first layer, you're told it's an RP focused game and that the ideal move is to 'play to lose', taking big risks for the sake of story, drama and narrative.

In the second layer, you're told it's a competitive PvP experience where perming other people, taking everything they have, and victimizing people is all possible and villainy is encouraged.

These two layers are like oil and water, and a lot of the conflicts I see cropping up relate to them, specifically people who play to lose, take big risks and then are curbstomped by the more careful and competitive people who are playing to win.

That's a dynamic of the game you have to understand and come to accept. Usually, that situation looks exactly like this: one party playing for narrative and story, the other just punching a ticket.

In this case I am going to point to how Red Reddingtion from the Blacklist works. He is a criminal. Sometimes in the show he has these long drawn out moral lessons before he kills a not at all important character and sometimes he quick kills the seasons big bad.

Even when Red is expected sometimes it is quick just, "You disappoint me John." Blam! One between the eyes.

While I am usually never ok with dying, I do get over it, and understand that sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

However, I understand that it's not healthy for me to discuss this topic. So I apologise for bringing it up.

i agree with you, its frankly ridiculous to boil down the many points brought up in this thread to 'people saying it is too much effort' and 'one group is trying to sap all the fun away from the 2nd group'

there have been multiple reasons given in this thread for why someone may not indulge in one liners before killing their mark, both IC reasons and OOC reasons. if you're going to ignore all that just to attack everyone as 'playing to win', why are we even having this discussion?

the issue here is that you really have no idea who is doing what to who, the amount of people they kill vs the amount they leave alive to tell the tale, the amount of RP that's being done or not done. if the gm's feel that someone is being a murder hobo, they will let that player know, and the game world will bite back if it continues. i have seen this happen to PC's and you cannot escape those NPC's if you're killing the balance of the game via murderhobo

now if you don't have an accurate or complete picture, you probably shouldnt comment like youre an expert on the subject or insinuate that its some rampant problem with the game. however, based on your posting history and the amount of bad takes you put up on this board, i guess that's too much to ask

I can count the number of times I've been able to have a good pre-fight, during-fight or post-fight RP scene with someone on one hand.

I can't begin to count the number of times that I've gotten bitten in the ass by people on tilt screaming for help, calling for backup, revealing identities or hiring someone to come murder me after my 'victory' where one would expect to be able to RP a scene given the combat mechanics of the game. As has been mentioned by others in this thread

Because of this, I'm firmly in the camp of attack, necksnap, get all and walk. Extolling your virtues before offing someone who won't remember the events anyways comes off as a bit masturbatory in nature to me.

If things were setup a bit differently in this game, and we didn't have the memory and cloning system to work around such as we do, I could see the merits of this argument more, but with things as they are right now, it seems like the ask is for the aggressor to expose themselves to undue amounts of risk for quite literally no gain. And there is a pretty relevant side thread created by Vera that discusses people no-selling weaknesses, injuries and flaws of their character when it comes to combat situations- something that is already a large and ongoing issue.

I really wish people used more common sense and characterization before immediately jumping into situations whereby they are going to get creased, because you are not going to get that RP you're expecting when the red text starts flying. You're just going to get the vat nap.

Vera, Grizzly, Talon -- you guys are fine too. Really. For the reasons you've given multiple times, I think most people understand why people kill the way they do most of the time.

But for the people that like to swing the 'I've been around this long and done all this shit and you haven't' Studdly, my two chy here:

As someone who was there when Aikao and Murphy and Seven Ecks and Nic F and Rigby and Wildfire and Moss were not only fucking legends but when they were still just trying to become legends, HOW you do what you do matters just as much that you did it. Style AND substance. Players keep those legends alive more than characters do.

Also, yes, what some people do and want when they engage in their RP will simply be fundamentally at odds with what others do and want on an OOC level, sometimes RP and combat will just leave you unsatisfied. It happens. Some people will risk more to give more, some won't. That's their choice.

(Edited by Johnny at 10:23 pm on 3/5/2020)

If you can't take a knee for 30 seconds of RP before killing someone with a little flair because you've arranged for a situation so precarious those 30 seconds might blow the whole kill, then you suck at killing people, yes.

Please, please, please, please tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

You don't need to spend an hour on a monologue, you don't even need the 30 seconds of flair every kill, no. But doing so, at least sometimes, is what separates the Sevens from the thugs in the ambient room descriptions creasing grandmas and running cuz might lose.

No one is demanding a cinematic, grand death EVERY TIME. Everything scales. If you're a ganger in a gang war you're probably expecting meat grinder deaths almost daily. Read the situation.

I have had a lot of great RP /leading up to/ the eventual trips to the vat. I lost track of how many times my character has been vatted at this point, but it's probably more than half a dozen.

While the actual act of the combat and the process of getting killed was quick, the build up to it and sequence of events that resulted in the death were rich with roleplaying opportunities. The fear of being stalked and taunted as an immigrant. The back and forth on SIC. The ego driven, verbal pissing matches that escalate into violence. The having a bounty and constantly wondering if THIS character is going to be the one to try to claim it. etc.

From my limited experience, mid-combat seems like the least opportune time for roleplaying. Combat should be quick and violent and leave everyone in a state of shock over what happened. From what I have seen, Sindome does a good job of modeling the harsh realities of weapons and their effects on a body. A couple of bullets here, a slash, stab and slice there... and that's it. The die have been cast.

As my sifu told me IRL over a decade ago, "Once the time has come to fight, you fight with as much intensity as you can muster for as long as it takes to neutralize the threat." It really is a fully committed, single minded intent. There is no grand scheme planning and orchestration of the details. No, "I'm going to finish them with a front kick, after cackling maniacally and taunting them for ..." It's all reflex, and muscle memory and a bit of focused intent on trying to hit vulnerable areas like the throat, eyes, kneecap or whatever.

I believe that I understand what the OP was asking for. I believe they, and others, want roleplaying with their death. Roleplaying in the process of dying or being attacked. While it's natural to want "more", the realities of the game mechanics and human nature run counter to fulfilling that want.

There is roleplay leading up to the act of sending someone to the vats. There is roleplay following waking up in the vats and piecing things together. But the act itself, the hitting, slicing, stabbing, shooting, is just that. It's a wall of red text that hopefully you come out the other side of.

Know what I mean? Like, realize that different people come from different perspectives and not everyone wants the same things/RP you want, nor are they entitled to give it to you. When I hate someone's RP, I stop RPing with them, that's always an option. Mess with someone and they have a harsh response, you probably won't mess with them again, which is why people do that.

This is the best point made in this entire thread IMO.

As someone who was and is around gm for both, and also played with all the “legendary “ (-.-) people, the game is TOTALLY and fundamentally different.

The only takeaway From this thread for me is if I try to kill you, and I might, that If the opportunity to help make it meaningful for you is there, I will try to oblige.

As for me? Redscreen me bro. I’ll be alright.

The topic is when player A arranges for player B to CONSENSUALLY kill them. B experiences no chase, no danger, no need to get it done quickly. A shows up in a room coordinated by B. B is 100% safe and not in danger of anything going wrong.

And yet B still kills A immediately, prematurely ending a scene with no RP at all. Like, come on. Would less than 5 minutes of RISK-FREE RP really harsh your day? Even just a moment for a single pose or two to make the scene well-written instead of mindless.

I've witnessed some fantastic murders and torture and they're always exciting -- unless someone no-sells the kill.

Y'all remember the thread about victims no-selling?

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/no-selling-331/

Well this thread is about the aggressors no-selling in scenes that they could sell without risk.