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Caressing into the kill
What to do when surrender is offered

So, spoilers, we all die sometimes in this game. I took the night thinking on this.

What do you do however when that death is consensual and there is no fight in the victims?

In my experiences, my deaths have been quick, even when I've tried to engage in RP with my killer, they are content to simply kill me without giving me a chance to react.

While this makes sense for some cases it does not for others.

I've tried to work this a bit into my character, but even then, it's hard.

Combat is quick. RPing should not be. There should be a build up.

If you're doing a planned killing, and the target comes to you willingly, coarsed or otherwise, this is a moment for amazing RP. And in several moments on my characters, both of them so far, I've had that stress and anticipation build and build and then expect to get this scene, where a killer comes in, grabs me, and takes me someplace safe(for them), and rolls out the plastic, and then puts a bullet in my brain. Yknow the whole last cigarette before you die sort of thing.

Instead I've typically gotten some variation of, randomly attacked with a "DIE BITCH!" and slaughtered in a very public location. Then 15 minutes of anticlimax staring at the screen having been murderhobo'd to death. I'm not saying that this is an utterly bad thing in every situation... However I am saying that it's a very one sided and discouraging thing, from an OOC perspective...

And I think we can do better.

Agreed, I've had the same thing happen from both ends. I think when it gets into combat meta and mechanics can out pace aesthetics despite being RP focused. I've seen this from both new and veteran players. It is so rewarding when people take the time to set up the atmosphere and pose a little before the violence starts or in a convenient pause. I know I'd be willing to agree to a temporary cease fire for the sake of a few poses to make the moment and buildup memorable.

Everybody's RP experience is different, but I've been on both ends of the murder treatment it looks like you want. My advice is fuck with the characters who you think will kill your character the way you want them to be killed, haha.

there are a number of factors that probably come into play here:

killer has shitty disguise skill -> going on a long drawn out monologue and twirling your mustache at your victim may lead to your disguise falling and your victim getting the word out that villain X is the perp. not optimal for the killer

dragging victim to 2nd location -> same problem as above, really. unless you can ensure a constant deadzone everywhere you're dragging the victim, the killer is increasing their chances of being caught up with, ID'd, and/or the victim's backup arriving at the 2nd location to fuck them up. again, not optimal

in movies, you know when the villains have the hero on the ropes and then start monologuing - you know help is coming or the hero will manage to pull an ace up their sleeve. in SD, most people will try to avoid this happening to them

Roychethe59,

I see what you're saying, but that feels a -little- meta-gamey to me. That's a player saying "Well, I know my character's disguise skill is garbage, so I'm going to exploit the combat system to make sure that no one has any time to RP so that I can avoid IC consequences".

It's not meta if character knows they can't keep a convincing disguise up for long.

I agree. Another thing to consider is that the setting is super gritty, so you might only get monologue death for something that's super personal. If it's just a minor score or biz as usual, I'd expect more getting ganked in the streets by the squat bald man.

Maybe the other character has it really within their interests to pull the trigger quick and GTFO before they get caught because it would be stupid to stick around or simply because walking in, shooting fuckers and leaving without saying a word is badass for them. We don't need it to be dramatic or write paragraphs to explain the explosive gunpowder and the dazzling muzzle as demons screams out of the handgun all the time.

Vera

"It's not meta if character knows they can't keep a convincing disguise up for long."

It's meta if you as a player know this, so you as a player choose not to make an entry post, perform any RP whatsoever, or really do anything outside of 'attack '.

I keep being told this is an RP game, so where's the "RP" in that?

this is entirely up to the player and you can't expect anyone to follow this just because you think it's more RP

sindome is a fast paced combat MOO after all. if we were gonna change combat 'for the sake of RP' then we might as well as remove combat alltogether and make it posing only

redsteel,

the character knows they cannot keep their disguise, and they don't want to get in trouble/be caught/get judged/ID'd, so they simply decide to quickly finish the job.

how is it meta that a character knows what they are good at and what they aren't? if you ask my character how good they can use a rifle they will tell you they're shit at it, or average, or good -- the point is characters obviously know their skillset lol

My biggest inspiration for murder in the Mix RP wise is definitely the Wire.

Spoilers obviously: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adrNEUJGRg4

It's a great mixture of dramatic deaths with big leadups and quick caps, both have their place.

Ranger,

"Free Cyberpunk Roleplaying

Sindome is an online text-based Cyberpunk Role Playing game (RPG) inspired by Neuromancer, Judge Dredd and more. You play online in real-time with other people. You'll develop a unique character with a past, thoughts, dreams, and secrets. Because roleplaying is required, there is an expectation that your character will have reasons for their actions. We've gone beyond your typical roleplaying text game. You don't decide your character's success or failure, the game does. Most everything you do will depend on the stats and skills your character possesses. This includes understanding languages, perception, combat, and a vast array of other things you can do."

To your second post. Choosing to not make any emote/pose/say is an OOC choice. Your character entered the room a certain way, holding a gun or sword perhaps, maybe with murderous intent. simply typing "go w" waiting for the room desc to pop up and hitting enter on the 'attack person' you already had typed out isn't RPing with people, it builds no inter-character conflict or leave any room for one party to beg and plead for their life.

It's playing a purely mechanical 'I kill x player and get $$$'. If we're going to do that, then I would suggest the devs just put in a bunch of NPC mobs for people to kill.

your logic is like saying people who play DnD aren't roleplayers because there are rolls involved in DnD too when you get into certain situations, including combat. you don't tell the GM what your character does and the GM responds what the NPC does and then you respond what your PC does in combat etc etc.

there are roll systems. there are mechanic systems. this exists in tabletop games. it exists in sindome. just because there are rolls/mechanics involved doesn't mean there is no roleplay involved.

if you do not like the mechanics of combat you might want to seek a non-combat MOO instead

there is functionally no difference between the player knowing their character sucks balls at disguising themselves and the character itself knowing they suck balls at disguising themselves - its one and the same

as for where the RP occurred, if not at the end, there would still be a beginning and middle, no?

doughboy offends johnson in the drome

johnson reaches out to doughboy 2 to exact revenge on this prick

doughboy 2 stalks doughboy, pays informants, hires backup, buys a bigger gun/knife/sword, chromes up in preparation for the hit

perhaps doughboy is aware there's a contract on his head because johnson informed him, because that's how he rolls and he doesnt give a fuck. so doughboy takes the necessary precautions. he moves flats, tries to make himself untraceable, alternates disguises everyday

despite all this, doughboy 2 catches doughboy slipping one day outside one of his safe houses. doesnt say much, just pops out of the shadows and sends him to the vats quickly because he knows doughboy's crew will be rolling up to the spot soon after doughboy called out for help on SIC

with the whole storyline i just drew up, which is very common in the game, is it really a bad thing that with all that buildup, it simply ends in a flurry of bullets and a message after the victim pops out of the vats to stop fucking around with the wrong people?

Let's keep some chill in our conversations and assume best intentions in the replies of others, please.

I think giving someone a memorable death, if it is feasible (and it is not always, and people should understand that) you should go for it.

Ranger,

"your logic is like saying people who play DnD aren't roleplayers because there are rolls involved in DnD too when you get into certain situations, including combat. you don't tell the GM what your character does and the GM responds what the NPC does and then you respond what your PC does in combat etc etc."

Wonderfully constructed strawman argument.

You know what it's called when players in D&D just kill everything they come across with no interaction?

Murderhoboing

I've been made aware that that's a term that the players in Sindome are familiar with too, and it's discouraged. Are you telling me that the way to play Sindome is to be a murderhobo, and anyone who doesn't is just a chump who deserves to have their character killed for daring to play a non-combat character?

no, I am saying that just because 'attack X' is a mechanic instead of us having to pose every single combat pose and what we do in combat doesn't mean sindome isn't a roleplay game and whoever just comes out of the shadows and attacks you, through a game mechanic, isn't a bad roleplayer

you're calling people out for being murderhobos and bad RPers for simply utilizing game mechanics and that is just ridiculous

@RedSteelButterfly

Despite the apparently abrupt ending of plots where you're hanging out at the Drome and in less than 10 seconds you see The Scroll there is usually a context behind each death. Rarely they're random. So if you "kill X and get $$$" it's because X fucked up and insulted Y or crossed them somehow, and Y hired Z to kill X, and X's RP to get to Y involves much more than just hack and slash, directly affecting both X, Y, and Z. See the bigger picture.

Maybe the other character has it really within their interests to pull the trigger quick and GTFO before they get caught because it would be stupid to stick around or simply because walking in, shooting fuckers and leaving without saying a word is badass for them. We don't need it to be dramatic or write paragraphs to explain the explosive gunpowder and the dazzling muzzle as demons screams out of the handgun all the time.

This

I think kroack has the right approach. Both kinds of death have their place. Most quick kills are likely because victories in SD are generally hard-won and hard to come by, so someone killing you probably doesn't want to drag it out, even if they likely really want to for a richer RP for both of you, because they don't want to risk you escaping, your back up arriving, you getting signal back to tell everyone what's happening, an aero full of solos you hired for protection showing up to save you...who knows what. Quick and silent kills should absolutely be a thing that happens, but there should be a reason they happen.

That said, whether this is a 'fast combat MOO' or not, I do hope that in the situations where it's possible, people will give as much RP to those they're murdering as they reasonably can. Even if the character is about to vat out and not remember that shit you said to rub their face in it just before you did them in, the PLAYER will, and they're here to RP just like you are. SD is also RPI / RP enforced. You're weaving a narrative experience for everyone you engage with, whether it's with a pose or a gunshot.

My thoughts are in line with Slither. Sometimes it doesn't work, but when it does this is an RP game, have fun with it, let violence define your character.

I apologize for being of the mindset that if I construct for someone a potential scene for you, with which to truly get into the inner mindset of your character... That I get frustrated when that scene's opportunity is discarded. And for a combat to break out before any sort of RP has occurred on site.

To be certain I want to make clear that the context of the above post is EXTREMELY vividly explained. I am talking about giving to people who have surrendered, or appear to have surrendered, as well as new players and characets who cannot really fight back against a trained fighter. I'm not talking about the bar room brawlers feud being RPed out rather than just getting into that fucking barfight or anything like that. I'm talking about specific circumstances where maybe playing a little bit of soft ball with a player will engender a better sense of RP and community both OOCly and ICly.

So next a hypothetical, You have someone who has surrendered, who has no real contacts capable of fighting you, who has volunteered to come to where-ever and whatever end you want. Who has clearly surrendered to the death to come. And has made that clear on numerous occasions.

What do you do?

And more importantly which provides more enriching and worthy rp of the situation described.

A: Invite them to a crowded area and murder them within 3 seconds of walking into the area with no lead in or anything of the sort?

B: Show them a good time, give them a scene, give them a cigarette/coffee/last meal, and, and lay out the tarps to put a bullet in their skull?

C: Call them suicidal, refuse to perform the job, and get the fuck out of there.

D: Literally any option other than A.

I'm basically talking about people you as a player might as well be invulnerable against.

I've had good scenes and bad scenes with the deck stacked against me, but there was a recent one that irritated me beyond measure. Mostly because I had to basically defend the game, the staff, and the community to a newbie afterwards as they fumed. And it inspired this thread, because they didn't want to make it, fearing that they'd get called out for not being a 1+ year player. And basically fearing being told to just sit down and shut up.

I apologize for being of the mindset that if I construct for someone a potential scene for you, with which to truly get into the inner mindset of your character... That I get frustrated when that scene's opportunity is discarded. And for a combat to break out before any sort of RP has occurred on site.

To be certain I want to make clear that the context of the above post is EXTREMELY vividly explained. I am talking about giving to people who have surrendered, or appear to have surrendered, as well as new players and characets who cannot really fight back against a trained fighter. I'm not talking about the bar room brawlers feud being RPed out rather than just getting into that fucking barfight or anything like that. I'm talking about specific circumstances where maybe playing a little bit of soft ball with a player will engender a better sense of RP and community both OOCly and ICly.

So next a hypothetical, You have someone who has surrendered, who has no real contacts capable of fighting you, who has volunteered to come to where-ever and whatever end you want. Who has clearly surrendered to the death to come. And has made that clear on numerous occasions.

What do you do?

And more importantly which provides more enriching and worthy rp of the situation described.

A: Invite them to a crowded area and murder them within 3 seconds of walking into the area with no lead in or anything of the sort?

B: Show them a good time, give them a scene, give them a cigarette/coffee/last meal, and, and lay out the tarps to put a bullet in their skull?

C: Call them suicidal, refuse to perform the job, and get the fuck out of there.

D: Literally any option other than A.

I'm basically talking about people you as a player might as well be invulnerable against.

I've had good scenes and bad scenes with the deck stacked against me, but there was a recent one that irritated me beyond measure. Mostly because I had to basically defend the game, the staff, and the community to a newbie afterwards as they fumed. And it inspired this thread, because they didn't want to make it, fearing that they'd get called out for not being a 1+ year player. And basically fearing being told to just sit down and shut up.

You should check out the thread about torture. It is relevant in the same sense that in MANY cases tailoring an out or tailoring a death for someone leads to you trying with a brick wall who is mad that they are in a situation they have no control over. I’ve gone out of my way to try to do these things sometimes to be met with ;passive aggressive smirk, “just kill me already you’re wasting my time”,

Very rarely are they happy about the situation.

Is it that unsurprising if they're just expecting the typical murderhobo into 15 minutes of red scroll that many of the people in this thread are decrying as the reason why death RP is apparently supremely unfulfilling for a lot of people?

Granted, I don't think anyone wants to impinge on the agency of the 'efficient killer' subtype, more that people want to be able to play their characters in a particularly formative moment instead of just getting red-walled into exhaustion lock and then swift death, depending on your allocated murderer.

I’ve never met one person in Sindome that was estatic about their death. Most of the people that say they are usually are RP virtue signaling or say it weeks down the road after they’ve digested it.

This is definitely a complex issue with a lot going on. There are always going to be a range of experiences from random headshots to a well drawn out "drag and torture" kind of scene. I think the biggest factors are disguises slipping, SICnal prevalence, and the ability to see the room name you're in, which can contain some META-knowledge that could be sicced out for help.

If you're a solo doing a hit, chances are you don't want to get caught. There are so many people moving through rooms all the time, that you could totally get accidentally rolled up on mid-act. Also, showing just a moment of mercy for a pose could allow your disguise to slip, or the person to get away somehow. If you're trying to make a rep as a solo, or you've gambled all your chy on dough, weapons, and candy for the hit. You're likely going to be as quick and efficient as you can.

I've had this happen to me, no warning, just filled with lead. I lost a TON of stuff. I would have been mad about it, but I've played this game for a while and it didn't hit me that hard. I can see how some people can feel upset about this, but it's the way of combat in SD in general. I do want to say that just because I got super-popped out of nowhere does not mean I didn't get RP. When I vatted out I was ICly livid, and managed to bitch and moan my way into some more information, which lead me closer to some really bad-ass people. This may not always be the case. Hopefully if someone does waste you suddenly, they'll throw you a bone when you vat out. Sometimes the lack of a message is also scary, and RP-fodder itself.

You're so small to them that you aren't even worth giving a message to. That's pretty fucking CP, and murder is so commonplace in the mix, that it seems themely as well. Having this happen to your player could definitely lead to some big changes. Paranoia, more combat training, maybe they get into disguises. Who is after them, why, and what can they do about it?

If we really want to encourage more of this drawn-out murder kind of scenes, I'd suggest giving more tools to potential solos or gankers that limit potential for vision and/or sic for the victim. I think it's been suggested before, but if you could apply a bag over the head of a victim when they're unconscious, that would go a LONG way towards making this sort of thing happen. You could then drag them to a room with no sicnal and RP to your heart's content. If I had someone handcuffed and a bag over their head I'd get them wherever I wanted, pop on a false voice, and talk MAD shit. Sicnal wouldn't be as much of an issue here because all they can do is act scared and plead for help.

I think the code for "dark rooms" and cyber-eyes might be able to be leveraged by a hooded bag, but I'm no coder. Maybe thermos or other eye-chrome could still work through it?

As it stands, even if you go to the trouble of finding someone, beating them silly, dragging them to a location, you're going to risk them shouting locations as you're dragging them along. And even when you get there they could ID you and rat on you as soon as they get a moment's sicnal. Add to this what other people have said, where the two-weeks into the dome character who's scooped ice cream in Arizona for years refuses to budge during torture by a literal monster who's looking for paydata for a plot.

If there were maybe disposable hoods, or one-time use expensive temporary sic disablers that could be applied to a victim, I think we'd see more of this (I'm aware of current solutions, their could be further options though). As it stands, solo work is risky, and asking someone to play to lose in this situation is difficult when every second counts and any small graces to the victim could have massive repercussions.

Agree with Grizzly.

@RheaGhe: I think one thing that may not be clicking for you is that you have already accepted that your character is powerless in some situation and -you- want your death to feel meaningful, which is understandable. But none of that really matters to the person killing you. I mean, in some cases, it can, if they know for certainty that they have all the time in the world to do what they're doing and get away.

But even before questioning whether anyone has the desire to give you that RP, you have to realize that in 99% of cases your attacker doesn't know what's going to happen. To you, it's an open-and-shut case of, they're going to kill you. But from their perspective, ten million things could go wrong, so why fuck around?

I'm one of those who claim that some of my best moments are losing moments where my characters have been beaten or killed. But Grizzly is right in that I don't go out of my way to make it easy for these losses to happen (with a few exceptions) and in that they can sting at first and it can sometimes take real effort to shift from, "Damn it, I totally lost! This sucks!" to "How can I leverage this for more and better RP?"

So this means that I will generally have my characters take every reasonable IC measure they can to survive. They will try and run off. They will try to call for help. They will try and spin the scenario to make people want to help them and hurt their attacker. They will try to get revenge. And most any attacker would expect this from every person they go after. And to be honest, some can be really cheap about their 'defensive measures'.

Most victims have the same will to survive and most attackers expect this. While there might be occasions where the victim has opted to not call for help and to not escape, the attacker doesn't know this. So this kind of fun RP tends to only happen when the attacker has decided that those things (getting stopped or identified or the target escaping) are unlikely or don't matter to them. To be frank, the attacker sets the pace.

On the flip side there is a culture aspect to this as well. If we as victims are always uncooperative and do everything we can to thwart or remove the fun from scenes like these, then we are essentially -pushing- attackers to assume the worse and act in a way to counter it.

@Grizzly: Excuse me, but I joined this MOO specifically to get tortured and killed repeatedly and then permed after three months.

I was denied my desires, and I feel like I'm a stronger person IRL for it.

---

Boo to those people who want no buildup to murder. It just makes me think your character is boring.

It's quite literally choosing win conditions over giving people a chance to play out their side of the scene. It's anti-Sindome at its core if you think of the whole endeavor as "cooperative competition".

Minimizing your risk for the victory might be smart ICly, but it is boring as all hell for everybody else.

To clarify, I have no issue with people executing well-planned masterstrokes to blap people as efficiently as possible with no fuss. That degree of preparation is commendable - it should also likely be giving you enough breathing room to spend a paltry half-minute or so at least giving your victim a dramatic monologue or a chance to wheeze impotently or something.

I had one character a while back who roleplayed out the extended effects of the combat actions hitting them DURING the fight, like staggering and gurgling and stuff. That was amazing and I wish I could've told them how cool it was after the fact. I also spent a few minutes with them afterwards once I saw them put in that effort even though it was at considerable risk to my own character, because shit, they deserved it.

I don't regret doing it and it's one of my formative memories with Sindome.

I feel like if I pulled a goto on you, found out everything there is to know about you, stalked you for an hour and risked all my rep and gear runninh a stakeout at your apartment for another hour that I already did put a lot of RP into killing you. Just because you don't know you're being centered during that process doesn't mean you aren't enjoying the spotlight.

I do my poses and make my speeches when I can, but ninety percent of the time the target either freezes up and does nothing or turns out to be totally immune to fear and pain even though they're like a nobody bartender or something.

Sometimes you're not the dramatic conclusion, you're just a comma in someone else's sentence.

Ephemeralis voiced my views on this better than I could.

It basically really does come down to that. Even if they've got the shakes, hell it doesn't need to be them responding, just a,

"Is this the target?"

"Yes sir."

*BLAM*

Before the action begins. Is all to takes to set the scene and make things memorable, and not feel like an anticlimax of staring at a screen for 15 minutes frustrated and alone to deal with the death...

I've been creased seemingly out of nowhere, with no prior RP that I saw, and it was fine. Left me paranoid and suspicious, and led to some RP later with my killer and others. Pretty cool, wouldn't change how that happened at all...

More in the OP side of things though, if you expect the killer to give people who surrender the time for RP, do we then expect that surrendering is advertising that you will not use that time to call in backup over SIC?

Personally I would make best use of that time to try extract myself from the situation :D

Rule update; before a kill the killer must have a pre-loaded one liner ready to satisfy the victim.

Good talk.

sneak e

l victim

hitman reveals his location, stepping into plain view

to victim: See you in He-

victim goes east

think Aww fuck, we got a runner

Okay but the topic is consensual killing. Not running stakeouts.

But what is consensual killing?

I don't mean to be the cold-water thrower, but I completely agree with Grizzly that no one wants to die. What I see happening in this thread is people expressing the feeling, "Well, I don't mind dying, as long as my death doesn't feel like a jaded afterthought to someone else."

And I understand that feeling. Who wants to feel like their character's death is meaningless? I think this topic is born out of frustration at that feeling, like, not only being powerless, but other people not caring. Unfortunately, it's just not always often or likely that death, even interrogation type deaths, come with the exact RP you might crave. In my experience it has a lot to do with the respect the other party has for you and the likelihood that you'll take advantage of their RP somehow.

Those are often question marks. Dying sucks, I know. Adjusting to it ICly/OOCly is part of the game's learning curve.

You know, just another thought that might help, but Sindome is really two layers of gameplay smooshed together.

In the first layer, you're told it's an RP focused game and that the ideal move is to 'play to lose', taking big risks for the sake of story, drama and narrative.

In the second layer, you're told it's a competitive PvP experience where perming other people, taking everything they have, and victimizing people is all possible and villainy is encouraged.

These two layers are like oil and water, and a lot of the conflicts I see cropping up relate to them, specifically people who play to lose, take big risks and then are curbstomped by the more careful and competitive people who are playing to win.

That's a dynamic of the game you have to understand and come to accept. Usually, that situation looks exactly like this: one party playing for narrative and story, the other just punching a ticket.

Consensual killing: When your character doesn't want to run so they show up willingly, or choose who gets to kill them, or determine the manner of death, etc.

Also Crooknose I'm a little upset by your assertion that "nobody wants to die" because that's invalidating to those of us who experience suicidal ideation or have attempted in the past.

Now it’s just getting ridiculous

I disagree with you there Crook. If I'm going out of my way to ace someone and rob them, I'm roleplaying with them. I have spent hours watching characters and getting to know them for the express purpose of taking their stuff. I have spent far, far more time RPing about my enemies than my friends. Whether they're made aware of that or not, it's an RP experience, not just punching a ticket.

I am with Vera and others on this. I may not have spent time RPing with my victim but I RPed with a lot of other people just to get to the wetwork part of the story. As other people have suggested there are a LOT of factors that go into whether it is a long talk or just instant attack.

In this case I am going to point to how Red Reddingtion from the Blacklist works. He is a criminal. Sometimes in the show he has these long drawn out moral lessons before he kills a not at all important character and sometimes he quick kills the seasons big bad.

Even when Red is expected sometimes it is quick just, "You disappoint me John." Blam! One between the eyes.

While I am usually never ok with dying, I do get over it, and understand that sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

@ynk: I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings. I feel like a discussion of suicide is probably outside the scope of the forums but I will just say, there's a clear parallel between suicidal ideation and the desire to choose the manner of your RP death and it's feeling like you can exert some measure of control in a hopeless and powerless situation. In my opinion, upon realizing this we should be trying to address the underlying feelings of hopelessness and despair, not give in to them.

Thanks. I agree with you, Crooknose.

However, I understand that it's not healthy for me to discuss this topic. So I apologise for bringing it up.

"These two layers are like oil and water, and a lot of the conflicts I see cropping up relate to them, specifically people who play to lose, take big risks and then are curbstomped by the more careful and competitive people who are playing to win."

This is very true.

Which means, there is a concerted effort from the second category of people to prevent the first group from being anything but fodder for their own entertainment. Because naturally, they're playing to lose, and the other group is playing to win.

You can see this everywhere if you look for it, there's half a dozen instances of it in this thread alone. All this thread is talking about is largely indulging someone with a minute or two of RP preamble right before you kill their character off, and people are saying it is "too much effort" when they've spent hours before the fact "roleplaying in absentia" with your character to do the required wetwork beforehand.

It's ridiculous, frankly.

This sounds kind of like armchair quarterbacking. You don't know the work or RP that goes into pulling off a kill and you're not meant to. This is a hyper crowded city and killers are heavily incentivized to be quick and quiet. If this bothers you, then try to be the guy pulling the trigger.

Vera, can you stop telling everyone you disagree with that they don't know what they are talking about, but maybe instead provide some actual productive arguments? Thanks.

I provided a bunch. All I have left to say is be the change you wish to see in the world.

"people are saying it is "too much effort" when they've spent hours before the fact "roleplaying in absentia" with your character to do the required wetwork beforehand."

i agree with you, its frankly ridiculous to boil down the many points brought up in this thread to 'people saying it is too much effort' and 'one group is trying to sap all the fun away from the 2nd group'

there have been multiple reasons given in this thread for why someone may not indulge in one liners before killing their mark, both IC reasons and OOC reasons. if you're going to ignore all that just to attack everyone as 'playing to win', why are we even having this discussion?

I see a lot of opinions in this thread. A lot of valid opinions from experience, and a lot of opinions of how things 'should' be. Neither are more or less valid, because everyone wants something and are welcome to want it.

I'd like this thread to step back and look at the actual reason it was created. Someone was killed without the kind of RP they wanted beforehand. A completely valid concern. That person has no right to tell anyone how they 'should' play, but they have every right to say 'hey, when you're playing, please consider that there are people who prefer this to happen'. Lets not devolve into arguing about how we state our opinions or telling other people how they enjoy something is wrong or isn't wrong.

We're a community, and I see no reason why we can't listen to each other, agree or disagree, and move back to playing with the information in our minds that these are things we could do to make the game more fun for others, when possible.

Reasoning notwithstanding, if you're consistently an uninteresting antagonist to people who are forced to play as your victims, you're going to run out of people to antagonise eventually if you're not giving them a little bit of carrot to go with the stick.

That's the hard reality of the situation.

Hide behind the rationale of "my character's a cold-blooded efficient killer" shtick all you like if it makes you feel better - it doesn't do a thing to address the fact that there is a player on the other end of the character you're fucking with, and if you do it enough times in a way that is wholly unsatisfying for them, chances are you're not going to get to do it very often in the future.

Be the cold blooded, efficient killer. Do your hours/weeks of wetwork. Enjoy the culmination of your efforts, just like... spare a little bit of extra planning to make it fun or cinematic for the person you're trampling over, yeah? Let them have that moment of 'oh shit' - it's also fun for you too.

I don't think that's wholly unreasonable to ask of people. But please, continue to tell me that I have no idea what I'm talking about or something.

well, see, if you're trying to insinuate that my character is that archetype, or anything of that nature, you'd be wrong. if you're not, i apologize for assuming

the issue here is that you really have no idea who is doing what to who, the amount of people they kill vs the amount they leave alive to tell the tale, the amount of RP that's being done or not done. if the gm's feel that someone is being a murder hobo, they will let that player know, and the game world will bite back if it continues. i have seen this happen to PC's and you cannot escape those NPC's if you're killing the balance of the game via murderhobo

now if you don't have an accurate or complete picture, you probably shouldnt comment like youre an expert on the subject or insinuate that its some rampant problem with the game. however, based on your posting history and the amount of bad takes you put up on this board, i guess that's too much to ask

now if you don't have an accurate or complete picture, you probably shouldnt comment like youre an expert on the subject or insinuate that its some rampant problem with the game. however, based on your posting history and the amount of bad takes you put up on this board, i guess that's too much to ask

At this point it sounds like complaining just to complain.

I've done a bit of the old ultra-violence.

I can count the number of times I've been able to have a good pre-fight, during-fight or post-fight RP scene with someone on one hand.

I can't begin to count the number of times that I've gotten bitten in the ass by people on tilt screaming for help, calling for backup, revealing identities or hiring someone to come murder me after my 'victory' where one would expect to be able to RP a scene given the combat mechanics of the game. As has been mentioned by others in this thread

Because of this, I'm firmly in the camp of attack, necksnap, get all and walk. Extolling your virtues before offing someone who won't remember the events anyways comes off as a bit masturbatory in nature to me.

If things were setup a bit differently in this game, and we didn't have the memory and cloning system to work around such as we do, I could see the merits of this argument more, but with things as they are right now, it seems like the ask is for the aggressor to expose themselves to undue amounts of risk for quite literally no gain. And there is a pretty relevant side thread created by Vera that discusses people no-selling weaknesses, injuries and flaws of their character when it comes to combat situations- something that is already a large and ongoing issue.

I really wish people used more common sense and characterization before immediately jumping into situations whereby they are going to get creased, because you are not going to get that RP you're expecting when the red text starts flying. You're just going to get the vat nap.

via Imgflip Meme Generator

I can't begin to count the number of times that I've gotten bitten in the ass by people on tilt screaming for help, calling for backup, revealing identities or hiring someone to come murder me after my 'victory' where one would expect to be able to RP a scene given the combat mechanics of the game.

Ergo, you want to win at the expense of telling a good story. Something characteristic to the principle responders in this thread against it so far. Dated players of dated characters swinging hard at people who're wanting a little bit of follow up in these types of scenes so they can you know... actually get to play their characters in a stressful event.

Even if they may not remember it after the fact, is there anything explicitly wrong with letting the victim player have some you know... FUN in lieu of the fact that their character is about to die and probably lose a fair bit of progress? Let me answer that for you: no, there isn't, save the fact that it makes your IC life a little more difficult and a little more interesting.

I'm not arguing here at this point. Do what you what, you're just making the game objectively less interesting for people by being diva antagonists unwilling to open themselves to a modicum of risk for fear of... more conflict in their conflict-based game.

It's heinously boring and there's a reason why people talk about the few seemingly "unpermable" immortals who run around doing crazy shit all the time - they tend to be extraordinarily interesting and able to cop a loss on their chin and not just red-wall people into a neck snap in most hostile interactions. But you do whatever you want, I'm just another bad take, apparently.

Eph, your take here (and elsewhere) is perfectly fine, I lean more to your side on this.

Vera, Grizzly, Talon -- you guys are fine too. Really. For the reasons you've given multiple times, I think most people understand why people kill the way they do most of the time.

But for the people that like to swing the 'I've been around this long and done all this shit and you haven't' Studdly, my two chy here:

As someone who was there when Aikao and Murphy and Seven Ecks and Nic F and Rigby and Wildfire and Moss were not only fucking legends but when they were still just trying to become legends, HOW you do what you do matters just as much that you did it. Style AND substance. Players keep those legends alive more than characters do.

Also, yes, what some people do and want when they engage in their RP will simply be fundamentally at odds with what others do and want on an OOC level, sometimes RP and combat will just leave you unsatisfied. It happens. Some people will risk more to give more, some won't. That's their choice.

Me taking a knee so you can maybe win isn't good RP unless I'm trying to play someone who sucks at killing people.

Isn't good RP for whom? You? Them? Why isn't it? You can't be good in RP in short bursts because your only one-liners are when you're being rude on the forums?

If you can't take a knee for 30 seconds of RP before killing someone with a little flair because you've arranged for a situation so precarious those 30 seconds might blow the whole kill, then you suck at killing people, yes.

Please, please, please, please tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

You don't need to spend an hour on a monologue, you don't even need the 30 seconds of flair every kill, no. But doing so, at least sometimes, is what separates the Sevens from the thugs in the ambient room descriptions creasing grandmas and running cuz might lose.

No one is demanding a cinematic, grand death EVERY TIME. Everything scales. If you're a ganger in a gang war you're probably expecting meat grinder deaths almost daily. Read the situation.

I think this thread has gone as far as it can.

Both points of view here are written in large amounts of detail here for people to form there own views.

I'm going to have to insist that if you're going to continue participating in this discussion, you need to stop insulting each other, passive aggressively or otherwise. Having a differing viewpoint from yourself doesn't make the other person wrong or yourself right.

Contribute politely, or not at all.

--Glitch

For anyone put out by this kind of scenario, consider that maybe you had your RP, you just didn't realize it, that careless actions have consequences -- and the vat nap may not fun: It might have been corrective. That blaming the instrument of that correction is like being mad at the brick you threw up in the air for coming back down on your head.

Nobody is blaming the instrument of that correction for imparting consequences onto them. People are getting niffed that they often don't receive any palpable opportunity to react to that consequence in the context of ACTUALLY EXPERIENCING IT pre-death where it is promptly forgotten about due to the way cloning works.

Consequences are great. Reacting to consequences is entirely what Sindome is about. Do you understand why people not getting to react to a part of the game except in the post-death phase might feel really shitty, underwhelming and incredibly boring to someone?

In case you don't, it is because it completely robs a character's agency out of an otherwise very dramatic scene for them. Even just getting to gurgle or whatever adds something, at least.

If you feel entitled that someone making the story all about you when you've given them every reason to do otherwise, I don't know what to tell you. No one should feel entitled that they can antagonize people that can kill them and still expect a rewarding jaunt.

My first death was completely spontaneous, had no preamble whatsoever -- but it was the consequence of a chain of small actions and decisions going back a month, and it was designed to send a message -- which it did, very effectively and it was one I learned from as a result.

If you wake up in Genetek feeling unsatisfied and upset, think: What did I do that brought me to this point, and how can I avoid that in the future?

My two chy as someone who has only been playing here for about six months;

I have had a lot of great RP /leading up to/ the eventual trips to the vat. I lost track of how many times my character has been vatted at this point, but it's probably more than half a dozen.

While the actual act of the combat and the process of getting killed was quick, the build up to it and sequence of events that resulted in the death were rich with roleplaying opportunities. The fear of being stalked and taunted as an immigrant. The back and forth on SIC. The ego driven, verbal pissing matches that escalate into violence. The having a bounty and constantly wondering if THIS character is going to be the one to try to claim it. etc.

From my limited experience, mid-combat seems like the least opportune time for roleplaying. Combat should be quick and violent and leave everyone in a state of shock over what happened. From what I have seen, Sindome does a good job of modeling the harsh realities of weapons and their effects on a body. A couple of bullets here, a slash, stab and slice there... and that's it. The die have been cast.

As my sifu told me IRL over a decade ago, "Once the time has come to fight, you fight with as much intensity as you can muster for as long as it takes to neutralize the threat." It really is a fully committed, single minded intent. There is no grand scheme planning and orchestration of the details. No, "I'm going to finish them with a front kick, after cackling maniacally and taunting them for ..." It's all reflex, and muscle memory and a bit of focused intent on trying to hit vulnerable areas like the throat, eyes, kneecap or whatever.

I believe that I understand what the OP was asking for. I believe they, and others, want roleplaying with their death. Roleplaying in the process of dying or being attacked. While it's natural to want "more", the realities of the game mechanics and human nature run counter to fulfilling that want.

There is roleplay leading up to the act of sending someone to the vats. There is roleplay following waking up in the vats and piecing things together. But the act itself, the hitting, slicing, stabbing, shooting, is just that. It's a wall of red text that hopefully you come out the other side of.

Or how do I get my shit back and murdilate whoever did this. A vat nap's a pretty big RP prompt.

I think it helps to accept that people want different things in the game, and maybe not accuse each other for how they express that. Playing to win so you can have control and be a badass is a perfectly valid way of playing the game. If Joe wants to RP being a snitch and Tammy aces him for snitching, without giving him the concrete overshoes first, Joe shouldn't get mad. Joe should find people to betray who are more chill like that. Tammy's a businesswoman, she doesn't have time for cains.

Know what I mean? Like, realize that different people come from different perspectives and not everyone wants the same things/RP you want, nor are they entitled to give it to you. When I hate someone's RP, I stop RPing with them, that's always an option. Mess with someone and they have a harsh response, you probably won't mess with them again, which is why people do that.

Jameson,

I recognize the point you are making. However I don't think comparing the game in 2019 versus the game in 2009 or 2000 is especially fair. We have these legendary figures in the past for a reason, right? Is it because they were simply leagues and leagues above and beyond better at role playing that the characters we have today? Possibly. I think the biggest differentiation between now and then though, is just how significantly the game has grown, even in the scant few years I've been here.

Having these long form RP experiences with enemies is all good and great when you have 10-12 people playing, and three of them are your ace cools. It's simply not the same environment as today when we have 70 people online and a quarter of them want you dead. I really see this as more of a logistical issue than it is a role playing issue. As the game has grown and become more successful, the role playing styles have had change along with the times. Are we better or worse for it? That's not for me to call.

Crooknose,

The way I see this as being a significant issue is in NOT doing as you have stated. I've had bad RP experiences with a character before on one of my characters, and determined that I want to do things differently with a new character, with a new outlook and have become fast friends with people I wanted to murderate before. It's fantastic walking out of the comfort zone and realizing the baddies are the same people trying to play the game and have fun as everyone else.

Having these long form RP experiences with enemies is all good and great when you have 10-12 people playing, and three of them are your ace cools. It's simply not the same environment as today when we have 70 people online and a quarter of them want you dead. I really see this as more of a logistical issue than it is a role playing issue. As the game has grown and become more successful, the role playing styles have had change along with the times. Are we better or worse for it? That's not for me to call.

This is the best point made in this entire thread IMO.

As someone who was and is around gm for both, and also played with all the “legendary “ (-.-) people, the game is TOTALLY and fundamentally different.

The only takeaway From this thread for me is if I try to kill you, and I might, that If the opportunity to help make it meaningful for you is there, I will try to oblige.

As for me? Redscreen me bro. I’ll be alright.

The only think I like about the way the fatigue system works is that you can beat someone down and then stand there and explain why (assuming it's a one on one or other safe type situation) and let them live and learn if you so choose. However, if you've done some shit someone thinks you need to be merked over, then youse gets merked. It's a CP game. You can(and if you have ever read, or want to search the past forums you'll see we have multiple times) have this conversation forever. The bottom line is everyone is going to have their own style of coming at a situation, and as long as they are within the rules it's... well just a stack of opinions. I'd name drop if I thought it'd make mine more valid but that'd just be lying to myself.

The only takeaway From this thread for me is if I try to kill you, and I might, that If the opportunity to help make it meaningful for you is there, I will try to oblige.

This is the best possible outcome, really. If we can make the game more entertaining for as many people as possible, we're likely to keep people for longer and have a richer, more vibrant experience for all of us at the end of it.

On that, I think we can all agree.

Nobody here in the past 20 posts or so has been on-topic.

The topic is when player A arranges for player B to CONSENSUALLY kill them. B experiences no chase, no danger, no need to get it done quickly. A shows up in a room coordinated by B. B is 100% safe and not in danger of anything going wrong.

And yet B still kills A immediately, prematurely ending a scene with no RP at all. Like, come on. Would less than 5 minutes of RISK-FREE RP really harsh your day? Even just a moment for a single pose or two to make the scene well-written instead of mindless.

I've witnessed some fantastic murders and torture and they're always exciting -- unless someone no-sells the kill.

Y'all remember the thread about victims no-selling?

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/no-selling-331/

Well this thread is about the aggressors no-selling in scenes that they could sell without risk.

Player A may think it's one way, but it's the other way.

What do you mean?

The way I see this as being a significant issue is in NOT doing as you have stated. I've had bad RP experiences with a character before on one of my characters, and determined that I want to do things differently with a new character, with a new outlook and have become fast friends with people I wanted to murderate before. It's fantastic walking out of the comfort zone and realizing the baddies are the same people trying to play the game and have fun as everyone else.

@TalonCzar: that's not what I'm saying. My favorite characters are horrible people and have done horrible things to me. I'm saying don't go down the rabbit hole of trying to make RP work with people who you don't connect with. Basically what we've come down to is, "Your killing of me was lackluster and disappointing and didn't allow me to feel any emotional catharsis about the terrifying situation I was in." In that situation, what I might do is be like, well I'm not letting that baka kill me again, and go do X-Y-Z other things that seem fun and don't involve them. Live and learn, right?