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Daily UE Gain Tweak

Just a simple proposal:

Raise UE gain from three per day to four per day. This would reduce the time needed to cap out assuming you hit every UE, every day from two years and change down to just about two years even.

Pros:

+Lets players progress slightly faster.

+Makes those high curves marginally less painful.

+Reduces the time fresh characters spend in totally useless status.

+Could fill the 'gap' in the way daily UE is earned currently- making the game a bit more part-timer friendly.

Cons:

-Characters would advance slightly faster, although I don't think people would out UE their character's growth with this minor of a change.

-Characters would hit cap a few months sooner.

-There would be some percentage more characters sitting at the cap than there is today.

Thoughts?

Personally, I think five is a nice number but sure, I like the idea of the UE gain being raised to four to help those who are part-timers.
It would be nice if you missed a day to be able to earn back one missed day, but I'm mostly content as-is. The curve takes care of a lot of the feeling of catching up.
This would require handing out large sums of UE to some players, but to a new player I don't see it making all that much of a difference as a single UE isn't going to speed anything up all that much. I feel like this would be far more beneficial to some players than others, not including the players who are already sitting at max UE. You do make some decent points, though.
I would certainly agree to increase the gain, as the first couple of months; a good couple of months, leaves newbies feeling useless. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think a single point extra wouldn't destroy the atmosphere.
I'm not implying that people who are not capped are retroactively granted their one missing daily UE. This would just be a change that was a 'from that point forward' change.
Quick maths

Skrrrra

x1.33 faster development for new players;

Something someone in some certain games in some certain big companies would put behind paywall;

Doesn't sound like minor thing to me.

Boom. Ya dannow.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm all for new player retention. Simply pointing out issues from an assumption I made, which was an incorrect one! I wouldn't mind either way, honestly.
I'm happy with it working as-is.
It's good as-is and I think the curve already does most of what you want done here.

Getting to max UE faster is worse, not better, no matter what you think.

If people don't like it early on, they probably won't like other long-term aspect of the game either.
Not really sure I have much say as I've only been on for a week. But a bump up to 4-5 UE daily would be great as work takes me away often. I imagine I'm not the only one.
It would feel bad if I were a max level character and all the sudden it was easier for others to get to the place I worked so hard for.

I got hyper focused on stats trying to figure them out for a while until I just said fuck it and stopped tracking. I have no idea whats going on and though it affects my character, it just feels like a part of the relentless struggle, in a way that I accept.

If I were a max level character and suddenly other characters were accelerated 9 months faster to my level, I would welcome the challenge, as stats are only a small part of what is needed to effectively seize power.
I like the idea for giving part time characters more of a chance to keep up with their peers. It also allows a bigger competitive gain when rival characters get vatted. It needs to really be tested though as it throws off all the current numbers and once applied will be difficult to justify dropping back to three. I foresee some spreadsheet theorizing.
I don't think a small boost would hurt the game, from my limited, but not ignorant perspective. There are tiers to SD and this would help people move more quickly up the ladder, though this is understandably a very difficult change to make because it's been at three for a long, long time.

It takes forever to get anywhere near the top and even at the upper-mid level there's a lack of competition, or willing competition, so maybe it would help a bit with that.

It's a matter of willingness, not UE. The bigger dogs are just afraid to go after each other and nobody's making them do it.
It's both though, Vera. I'd say those are of the largest issues, along with people just not knowing how to properly build their characters. That last one is a bit iffy because of how shrouded SD's systems are, of course.

And this isn't directly in response to you, but in general. Being able to progress your character on a coded level does have a lot to do with how effective they can be. However, no PC is going to become anything worthwhile if they don't do anything with it.

I think that there might be an increase to willingness with a quicker rate.

Letting go of a character you have had for two years can be incredibly hard for some people, especially if you believe that you can trust no one, not even people you want to be your enemies.

Severe consequences usually creates an aversion to risks.

In my experience that isn't true at all. Risk-averse players typically are the ones who haven't gambled and lost in the past.

Anyway all of this is missing the point. If you think UE matters you're just going to sit there fretting about your @stats and not doing anything. The real point of UE is to give your story a sense of progression and to stratify the playerbase so that there's a better sense of haves and have nots. You don't need more xp to do interesting things and you certainly don't need it faster.

I agree with Vera on this. UE isn't necessary to make the game more fun. Yes, it is nice to see that 'growth' develop, but I think that should also be based on a Player's RP as much as their presence in the game. I saw it commented a few times that increasing the UE would help part-time players balance out better but, honestly, if you only play to get higher stats, you're missing the point of the game. And, I don't know if I agree with part time players getting the same 'character development' as those that play more consistently. Because, by very virtue, those players aren't as involved in plots or RP or other scenarios as those that are more active.
My 2 chyen.

Its true you don't need a mechanics system to RP or have fun in SD.

That being said, I do think the game would be a lot dynamic if the progression rate wasn't so slow. What do I mean by this?

If players advanced faster, they would feel more confident in the competence of their characters and consequently take more risks and be less worried about failure or going outside their cubes.

Also this would make shorten then gap between the casual and hardcore players and increase player retention and increase the size of the player base drastically (which I am not sure its something we want to do, because it might make the moo explode in more than one way).

Another added bonus, would be a larger pool of mid-lvl characters that are actually competent enough to be put in plots and challenge NPCs. And there are probably tons more benefits and problems that would come with this core change.

Nevertheless, the reason why I've never suggested something like this is that you are basically trying to change one of the core mechanics systems of game that has been a certain way for a long long time and hence is unlikely to ever change.

But ultimately, it doesn't matter how much UE or money you have in this game if you don't know how to use it properly (generating more RP for the rest of the players).

No amount of game changes is ever going to fix that, because its a problem on the player side of the equation.

The game is currently loaded down with high XP characters who are not taking real risks or engaging with conflict beyond immies and NPCs. That's fine, but it's demonstrably false that more XP will drive more people to take risks. Most of the balls to the wall players I'm seeing are working with very little.

Stop worrying about UE and just go play Sindome!!

Respectfully, I don’t think we need to make assumptions about other people’s RP/risk-taking when we don’t necessarily know everything they’re engaging in.

I’m for this idea, though.

Fair, but what I'm seeing a lot of here is people acting like UE is a barrier you have to cross before you can be useful somehow. That is absolutely the wrong attitude. UE doesn't really matter and people start weak so that they can learn to operate without it. That means playing smart and relying on others, not waiting until you have the points to play Deathmatch.
Eh.. you do realize UE is used for more than fighting and weapons right? It's more than making yourself a bad ass. Some rely on it for jobs and making money. So yeah its very important at the beginning.
Let's keep this focused on the topic and not get side tracked into subjective discussions only the GMs can really weigh in on.
I think five would be an excellent number. I'd like anything that would encourage people to play a little riskier.

If you gain more UE every day, people are just that little bit more encouraged to play fast and loose with their current character instead of dreading the months/years long slog to be competitive in the skill contest of duking it out with other players.

The dread of permadeath makes people boring and timid. Higher UE gain a day would make them a little less boring and a little less timid.

I just don't think an increase would be harmful to the game. PCs that have a habit of dying off early will still die off early, but might be able to produce a bit more of a bang while they're alive.

The main reason I support this idea is still that I think there need to be more mid-level to high level-PCs, as quickly as possible. Yes, I know that it's not going to magically solve existing mid to high level PCs being risk averse, but it's a start. Coaching is needed for anything else, but see Slither's post in this thread.

"I think there need to be more mid-level to high level-PCs, as quickly as possible."

I'm curious where this perceived need comes from. The game has highs and lows of activity and higher UE characters, and they'll come with time.

"The main reason I support this idea is still that I think there need to be more mid-level to high level-PCs, as quickly as possible."

Why? What do you need to be high level to do?

I think the issue is mainly not understanding what to do with the UE being given to them per day that makes earlier characters feel useless. If a veteran creates a new character, they'll know what's important to put UE on in order to succeed. Even if we give them 10 UE per day and they have no idea what to do with them in their respective fields, it won't really solve the issue.
You're supposed to find IC mentors for that reason. Humble yourself and go find a good trainer, that's RP.
Because mid-to-high level PCs are competitive when you're competing with mid-to-high level PCs when it comes to anything in the game. Nobody wants to spend their character's whole life being a Chicken Sandwich delivery bitch.
There aren't mentors for everything and not everyone will help out. I know that's what's supposed to happen, but it doesn't. People are busy and usually can't be bothered with training newbies when they have other RP to do in the end-game. They have other stuff to do IRL and might not want to spend their little time IG to train newbies.
I actually think that the slower UE gain helps a lot with new players. It takes longer for them to reach the cap meaning they have more time to find a mentor and get their shit together.
Isn't there the respec option for someone who doesn't wisely use their allocated UE?
Respecs are given under some circumstances. It depends from person to person. Help respec helps you out on the deets.
Yes, I read that, thank you.
I see many, many players eager to teach the next generation and very active in doing so. Keep looking! Mentors are all over the place!
I'm being vague, for obvious reasons. What I will say is that if this could be done more selectively, like the GMs giving specific characters increases depending on their specific circumstances, that would work too. I have no problem with specific newer characters receiving boosts, within reason. No higher-level PC should need this though.

The above would require more GM time, which would be its most major problem. Increasing UE gain overall could work if staff thinks a slightly faster paced system would even be worth implementing in the first place. Characters would progress more quickly and most importantly, catch up to other characters more quickly. Higher-level characters would remain very much the same because of the curve.

I will also mention that when it comes to actual coded combat what matters when it actually happens is your PC, not your ability to emote. This shouldn't be a taboo thing to say, mostly because combat is a huge draw to the game, even if it's not the main focus.

@Necronex666

I think there's plenty of high/max UE characters around currently that could be fighting but refuse to for RP reasons. Maybe instead of hammering the same people over and over again, they could go after people on their skill/UE level?

I think it's disingenuous to say that there needs to be more, solely because the ones present don't want to fight each other.

I think it's a terrible idea to have UE boosts be case-by-case. That's begging for accusations of favoritism, either real or imagined.
"I have no problem with specific newer characters receiving boosts, within reason. No higher-level PC should need this though."

If you perm or CP exit you get a big UE boost on your next character, and if you're experienced enough to know what you're doing you can spend that much more efficiently than a less experienced player, so a boost does exist.

A boost that is reliant on how long your last character lasted, so doesn't really apply in general. I don't think it's the same thing that was suggested here.
Early today I watch two high UE PCs on a similar skill/economic level begin to escalate a conflict with one another, only for a high/max UE player step in and tell them to stop.

I've also seen groups of high/max UE PCs lament about having no one to fight or that their enemies won't fight them, when they're banded with the exact kind of people they want to fight.

The people with stats/skills are here already. They're just not tweaking their RP to facilitate conflict and would prefer cozy homogenization.

Well, HolyChrome.

That's why I said coaching is also important, but I think going into detail on that would be going against what Slither has already advised on this thread. There are PCs I think could be doing more, but I don't have the same data a GM would have.

Part of the benefit to slower progression, in my opinion, is that during the process of becoming more powerful you also realize the responsibility that comes with it.

I don't think it's entirely a coaching thing, but it plays a part.

I fully agree with everything you said, HolyChrome. Give you a +3 for that one.
I've always thought the current progression scale gave max UE PCs an appropriately legendary status. It'd lose some of its specialness if everyone and their dad made it that far.

Also, max UE is the end of the game. Once you get to that point you should at least start to think about looking at how to make a CP exit or bring up the next generation so you can leave the game in capable hands. The drama's in the come-up, having been there before I don't think it'd be fun to get there sooner.

"Also, max UE is the end of the game. Once you get to that point you should at least start to think about looking at how to make a CP exit or bring up the next generation so you can leave the game in capable hands. "

Building on what Vera said, once you're a max UE big dick combat god, that isn't carte blanche to use your big combat dick every day. The real "peak" of characters has generally, from what I've seen, been midbie and late mid after they've had a chance to build up their skills, start getting into conflict, and realizing where they need to change this.

High/Max UE is much much sleepier, in that you shouldn't be using your legendary combat skills to blast any and every immy that looks at you wrong. And that's part of the responsibility that slower progression (hopefully) teaches.

It has a lot to do with coaching and actually going out there and learning through interacting with the world. Knowledge doesn't really help in SD if you don't have the experience to apply it, and I don't mean UE.

That's not really the point of this thread though.

In response to your comment on pacing and responsibility? You might be right, but one or two UE extra isn't going to break the game. It may even make more sense to only allow that extra gain for PCs under a certain level of EXP.

I'm a big believer in the current progression. It does a good job of setting down a sliding scale of capability so you have a lot of variety in skill levels. It also makes the end of the hill mean a lot more- or even just being most of the way up the slope. I think accelerating things would just swell the pool of max UEs.
It very much is the point as they go hand in hand.
A slight increase up to a certain level of EXP isn't going to cause the number of maxed out PCs to explode. What it might do is make things more faster paced in general, but like I said before, those PCs that usually die off early will still die off early. And I'll add that those PCs that idle all day for UE are still going to idle all day for UE.

I feel like we're straying from the actual idea a bit too, so I'll just leave it at that.

You're right, we are a little far afield. I'll go back to Talon's original points.

+Lets players progress slightly faster.

I've stated that I believe this is would be a bad thing for a number of reasons.

+Makes those high curves marginally less painful.

They're intentionally painful to separate out people who want to truly commit to something.

+Reduces the time fresh characters spend in totally useless status.

Fresh characters are not useless. They are less individually capable but most of the helplessness comes from a lack of ooc knowledge, which is intended. I've seen plenty of immies make big waves.

+Could fill the 'gap' in the way daily UE is earned currently making the game a bit more part-timer friendly.

This again speaks to a perception that mechanics are how you progress. They're not. Part-timers do have a harder time but this is because they don't have as much time to do the things you need to do to be successful and can't react to emerging situations as quickly. And that's fine. Not everyone needs to be balls to the wall. If you can only play once a week and can't plot, then you're not in constant direct competition anyway, and you sure as hell wouldn't be able to keep up if someone was getting 28 UE a week to your 4 instead of 21 to 3.

The immy stage is a distinct experience that's fun in its own way, not a hurdle on the way to the 'goal' of being a midbie or a max UE char and definitely not something we need to rush through or skip.

I like the current rate. It's just fast enough that I feel like I'm always making progress.

As a fairly young (as in time spent with the game) new player, I say if it ain't broke don't fix it. I've been having an absolute blast even with 'no ue'.
Whatever a part time player is, If you mean someone who hasn't timed the UE allotment and plays around getting all 3 a day, or has the capacity to play all damn day, I don't see what raising the allotment will do for them.
I'm glad to see that there is some good discussion taking place in this thread. I wanted to check back in and pop a couple of responses up, in no particular order.

There's been a bit of hyperbole when it comes to discussing an increase in the rate gain. I put thought into the proposed rate increase, and I think 4/day would be the appropriate number. More than this would cause problems in my opinion. At four UE a day, you're still taking two years of playing a significant number of hours a day, every single day to reach cap. We're not discussing people capping out in six months. That's still a long-ass time to build your character, make mistakes, recover from them, grow your legend, and sunset into a reroll.

When I mentioned part-time players, I'm not talking about people who play one day a week and can't be involved in plots, etc. I'm talking about the people that play 15-35 hours a week, who, under the current curve, would require well over 5 years to reach an endgame status on their character. If there was a slight increase in UE per day (1) then staff could make it so that players who only are able to log on and play a single session for a few hours a day could be netting an additional one UE a day during that time, which would bring them to today's progression, which we all seem to think is pretty okay.

Finally, to address the multiple responses of 'UE doesn't matter!' I'm sorry, but UE absolutely matters in certain circumstances. There's entire careers that are UE gated behind a fairly steep UE walls, and we seem to be chronically short on these careers in the three or so years I've been here now. I fully understand that combat power and relevance is entirely relevant to the current metagame and who you're trying to beef with. A global change to the UE gain rate fundamentally does not change the inter-player dynamics of how rivalries work as it stands today. If you play a similar amount to your rivals, you'll still be neck in neck with them.

Just to refresh, I'm usually one of the people here on the BGBB saying that sheets don't matter when it comes to building out your character's impact in the game and being a good roleplayer. This simply isn't the case when you have a job that requires you to do coded actions, where your stats and skills do matter. Or if you're doing a job that actually does require sheet checks, either codedly or via GM puppets. If we shave a couple of months off the lead in time for these careers, it's only going to result in more competition for these jobs, and between these jobs, which is something sorely lacking in certain parts of the game.

"If there was a slight increase in UE per day (1) then staff could make it so that players who only are able to log on and play a single session for a few hours a day could be netting an additional one UE a day during that time, which would bring them to today's progression, which we all seem to think is pretty okay"

They wouldn't get one -additional- UE though.

They'd just get one UE.

HC,

Miscommunication on the quoted section? If you logged on for say, 4 hours a day, you're making more than one UE in that time played.

That's not how UE allotment works, but I'm not going to discuss the intricacies here.

Needless to say, part-timers would be hurt more by more UE a day as players with more time would get more at 4/day.

Hey, here's a random thought. Get rid of timed allotment. At rollover each day or upon your first login of the day, you are assigned 3 UE. This should satisfy both sides of this, right? The progression rate remains the same, and if UE doesn't matter for a character, then this doesn't hurt things. At the same time people with limited playtime of only maybe an hour a day are not brought up to the same progression speed as people who play ten hours a day.
There's already problems with people abusing the system as it is.
UE -does- matter, but it's perfectly possible to be successful without it. You can certainly do pretty well as a lot of (if not all?) archetypes without spending a single UE after coming out of chargen. (Please don't shoot me, that's a general statement, and I know some archetypes are probably more UE dependent than others, but I reckon it's less of them than some people believe)

You'll never probably be top dog of whatever game you choose without accumulating UE to spend on your stats/skills, but the UE on its own isn't what's going to get you there.

It's gated behind time for reasons that I don't pretend to fully understand, but the idea I think is it's something granted for RPing. For example, I believe idling in an apartment won't grant you any UE, regardless of how long you idle there for.

This is why you guys shouldn't discuss mechanics and systems on here. It's incorrect to begin with. I think fine as is is really the answer there. If it works let's not try and fix it.
Sorry, I think I worded my last post wrong.

If you don't know for certain what something does please don't try and reveal it because often times it is incorrect and people read it and start believing it is what I meant.

If that's aimed at me, then yep, fair. I'm pretty much 100% certain the apartment UE thing was a public BGBB announcement by the GMs a while back... everything else was covered by "I don't pretend to understand"...

Fair point though, will watch myself more carefully in future :)

The shout/announcement you are referring to was about coffin sitting.

Sorry , didn't want to come off as rude there. :)

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/no-ue-in-coffins-for-non-newbies-296/

I found it for you.

Oh, well, I was wrong, I'll do my research before I open my big mouth next time :P

Didn't think it was rude anyway, don't worry, and TY for correcting my bakaness :D

I'm neither terribly experienced or full time, and I admit I've struggled with my in-game job choice since I started my last character. I did think to myself early on with this most recent archetype that, "If only I had more UE, this would be easier." And it would be in some ways, but it wouldn't help me learn the game any faster. Took some time to differentiate between the two, but now that I understand the difference, I don't really care about my UE gains the same way.

I'm gonna get where I'm going one way or the other, so I'm just as well leaving it as is.

Granting more frequent UE would only result in another thread asking to be granted even more frequent UE.
Is that really an argument or are you just quipping, ynk?