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The Corporate and Mixer Divide.
How can we incentivize it better?

The Corporate and Mixer divide is something that has always been a part of Sindome and the Cyberpunk world. We've always encouraged the divide between players of these two classes in a way that makes sense RP wise wither its Corporate citizens using and abusing the Mixers or the Mixers trash talking Corporate citizens on SIC and killing whoever takes the trip down to Red.

Today we're looking to you, the players, to help us find out how we can help incentivize you to RP the divide between Corpies and Mixers more in your daily RolePlay. Preferably any ideas you have should not require the constant attention of GM's but should be something that benefits you and gives you the incentive to RP the divide between these two classes to the fullest.

I don't have a great incentive, but I know something that makes it hard to RP the divide. Most characters start in the mix and make friends there. Its difficult to imagine a hard divide once they get a corporate position.

Then based on the nature of the job or the company, you may have limited contact with anyone else topside. So why would you eschew your old friends?

I know there is a way to start characters as corpies, but I have no idea how often that's used. But by having people start in the mix you encourage cross faction fraternization. So perhaps making it easier to start Corp characters would be a start.

Shoot the infidels.
Random service disruptions on the lev.

"We are sorry to announce that is undergoing temporary maintenence, our next stop will be ."

Be a shame if a corpie happened to be using that service to get home to Green for the evening...

(okay, probably not a great idea, but forcing spontaneous antagonistic contact somehow could be nice.)

Random service disruptions on the lev.

"We are sorry to announce that (redacted topside station name) is undergoing temporary maintenence, our next stop will be (redacted mix-side station name)."

Be a shame if a corpie happened to be using that service to get home to Green for the evening...

(okay, probably not a great idea, but forcing spontaneous antagonistic contact somehow could be nice.)

Sorry, didn't realise we can't use pointy-brackets :P

Make it an option in Chargen to immigrate to Gold and not the MIx to expose a corpie to the mix as little as possible starting out. If someone chooses this, has an appropriate history and passes the smell test, they could be put in an administrative hold until the GM approves it and dumps them topside with more chyen then a Mixer would start with and some rudimentary clothes.

People aren't apt to betray their friends. If they were never friends to begin with, it's easier!

As for people already topside, you should start looking at those who dwell in a crime infested megahood as having been stepping stones on your rise to the top. Use em, abuse 'em, and lose em! Everything you do in Sindome should be looked at as "How do I make out ahead on this?" You don't live in a democracy where you are free to associate with whomever you want.

There is a small minority who walk the line of Corpie and Mixer too, but if you ever get there you probably already know what's up.

@grizzly666 Corporate immigration already exists, provided you've already played a mixer (for some time). (;

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/corporate-immigration-243/

It's been awhile.

Streamlining corpie immigration would be nice though. Harder to feel sorry for mixers if you never walked through the mix in the first place.

A lotta mix turned corpies tend to lean towards the sympathetic towards mixers side and honestly, I'd prefer you to lob a couple frags off a skywalk and see how many of us trash golems you take out before the jakes politely ask you to stop discharging deadly explosives in the sky.

Corporate immigration is a process that requires a GM, because corporate immigrants start with a job interview already scheduled. The reason for this is that you have no business entering the city as a 'corpie' if you know, you aren't a corpie. It requires a well written and pre-approved history. We don't provide this as a chargen option because it would only add confusion and give people the impression that they can start right away as a corpie, which is not the case.

We want new characters to generally start in the Mix and get exposed to that side of the game first.

Let's talk more about what stops people from RPing the divide. Obviously we all want to roleplay and more people to roleplay with (IE: corpies if you are a mixer, or vice versa) is a plus, but just because you are roleplaying the divide does not mean you aren't roleplaying with folks from the other parts of the city. It just changes the kind of roleplay you are engaged in.

So what can we do to make it more useful/fun/interesting/viable/whatever to be continually RPing the divide?

I think on the Mixer side of things, the illusion that topside security is impenetrable and it will be neigh impossible to get away from committing a crime stops most people from engaging in corpie-harming shenanigans.

This is of course themely, as it is likely what The Law wants you to believe IC, even if more experienced Mixers know otherwise. Spreading that knowledge or opportunities around to budding rabble-rousers somehow might make things more exciting for all parties involved rather than the usual mundane shit-talking.

I think more corp-mixer subterfuge and espionage would be a way forward. This has been a thing before, I know that for sure and that sort of thing is not only themely, but fucking fantastic amounts of fun.

A corpie posing as a mixer to gather data on mixers for their corp's black ops that require them to do something either illegal, or in the mix. Or the flip, a mixer infiltrating the corps to pull off some batshit scheme they dreamed up while creamed out their eyes on lana one night just so they have bragging rights. Of course, there's also the paranoia that comes with that. Someone just come back from the corps after their shit went south? Mixers should be wary of them, thinking they're cains and what not. New corpie just crawl out the mix despite having a rep down there for stuff? Are they a corporate traitor? Maybe a spy? Are they still dangerous mixers underneath their mall bought suit and derived smile?

Stuff like that is what I've personally seen, and faced on either side of the divide, and it was hella fun.

Most corpie characters right now are relatively new, AFAIK. They're probably worried about pissing off the murder hobos and getting killed on the lev.

I'd start with internal HR memos about cracking down on employees consorting with mixers. Make it a witch hunt, offer bonuses or promotions for snitching on/framing your co-workers and keeping your own image clean. A lot of what should motivate a low-level corpie is fear of having to go back to the Mix life.

Somewhere along the way, the sentiment that fallen corporate people in the Mix again was no longer seen as bad. I would say that's been a bit weird.
Tbh I don't see the divide as a black or white issue, it's not always us vs. them, because there are layers of complexity in the interaction between both spectrums which are hidden from public perception but still occur behind the curtains. This is the case when corpies hire Mixers to do their dirty work, to get lackeys, to acquire paydata, or even for not so illegal things like getting shit from the markets, just like when Mixers have to resort to corpies to climb the ladder and become one of them. A great way to keep the divide healthy is to find ways to involve or use players in the opposite sectors to achieve your goals.
I can't say I'm speaking from experience, but -tightening- the cordon of Mixer/Corpie RP seems to be the wrong idea to me. Maybe make it a little laxer instead.

If I can turn around and go 'Well this person pissed me off while I was in the Mix. I'm going to chat up one of his friends and turn them cain, and get him killed.' It'll be a lot more interesting and appealing if it's not. "But for those few hours of RP I would get out of it I risk the job I spent 1-3 months applying for."

The divide is all about keeping up appearances. Spit on mixers on SIC but hire them to push your rival off a skywalk behind closed doors.
It seems a lot of people think the Divide is just for show and don't actually want to believe its very much real or want their PCs to actually partake in it by picking sides.

Doing so wouldn't mean you don't interact with the other side, it just changes your RP attitude towards doing so (Preferably very begrudgingly out of your own self interest) and then most likely you betray the other side, instead of becoming ace koolz forever.

have never seen this is a black and white issue. in this game, you can do whatever you like, as long as you don't get caught. if you can keep it hush and behind closed doors, more power to you.

if youre openly consorting with the other side as a corpie, or you get yourself caught, that should come with consequences like reprimanding or getting fired, and like mentioned above, maybe more snitching needs to be encouraged among corpies just to make sure the rp correctly figures in the amount of risk that's being taken

im not really sure what the solution is for mixers who are caught colluding with corpies. most mixers who do so are going to be on the high end in terms of gear and UE and you can get away with a lot if you have that and you're not scared to shed a little blood

I'm really not sure if I like this idea but I thought I'd throw it out there because someone else might be able to salvage something useful out of it.

Characters get corpie and mixer scores. They both start at 0. If you do something favored by corpies your corpie score goes up and your mix score goes down an equal amount (this would make it impossible to have a positive score with both, the best you can manage is to remain at 0). The reverse applies the same. Score adjustments can be automated (renting certain pads, shopping at certain stores, having certain jobs) and manual (GMs gauge your character's behavior and modifies your score as needed).

This score can then be used to impact the player. It can be automated in some cases and it can be referenced by GMs in other cases. In the mix you might get better prices at markets and scavengers and NPCs and the like. As a corpie you might get better interest rates or the like. GMs could also take the scores into account as a factor (one among many) to guide RP.

This would overlay any existing faction scores. So you could be well known as a staunch mixer even if several mix factions hate you. So the Arts might hate your guts but still consider you a real mixer and not some corpie blowhard.

I would also consider this score a public image thing. You could have a public image as a corpie extremist and still meet weekly with that love of your life mixer or send flash down to the mix to help the people of the world - until you are caught!

This is really so simple. I posted un another thread about the fluff and one post of mine in it also saw Johhny code a OOC change that squashed that issue I brought forward. So now, let's move forward and talk about the fluff that makes me cringe daily.

As mentioned in the other thread, Class Wars. Bring it back. Put a PC in that role (more jobs) Have weekly or biweekly shows every month. Drive the point home into their heads until a vein is going to burst goddamnit. Corpies VS. Mixers. Drill it into them and let Class Wars be the corps boot camp and rite of passage, guiding the new turncoats ICly by referencing recent events, and keeping those sitting on a throne from the sweat and blood of others in check at the reality of things.

Oh, you're a corporate TV Personality or something being cutesy on Pub SIC with Mixers to appeal to them? Fucking your corps image up and encouraging other corpies to do the same with your sway? Better think hard if you want to keep that stuff you've built, because words and cries of sympathy won't get you far in the Mix when you eventually fall if you keep it up. You can handle hearings ICly in a unique case by case basis. Disciplinary action, beatings, blackmailing, set up scenarios that ensures they stay in line, because stepping out means this incriminating undeniable evidence pieced against you by your corp will have you turning from failed corpie to the Mixers plaything bound to die and burn out or hiding in exile for months from EVERYONE for wasting your corps resources and betraying them. Very themely. Imprisonment. Torture. Behavior reprogramming. Literally anything cyberpunk that makes people think twice. Public examples of employees and working to rebuild their image amongst their chums while Mixers laugh their asses off, making the target example character resent Mixers.

As for Mixers, expanding on Grey0's idea, but more simplified. This should be done through RP, not gamey behavior that encourages the divide like discounts. Public image. Gangers hate you (There's a system in place for this) if they see you consorting openly on public SIC with Corpies. Ranging from snide remarks, random beatdowns, muggings, killings on sight etc. Depending on the severity of the breaches of the theme and divide and how often it's happening. Mix establishments not hiring you. Places like bars banning you or throwing you out. All this in the name of being a spineless, sniveling little rat turncoat in the eyes of REAL Mixers. There's lots that can be done and admins can give small touches IC and utilize these examples to let it snowball amongst the playerbase, by then players would be forced to react, have a side on the fence, and respond. Characters would mirror the behavior and mayhem unfolding in the name of the divide after deciding which side of the fence they're on, or get consumed by the Mix for being a corpie lover kiss ass.

One last thing. Don't put manager type characters/players in those roles that sabotage this and admins view and visions for things. Are they CP? Will they micromanage and lessen staff load by ensuring their employees act their side of the divide properly? Causing those below them to coach others properly or hide it damn well.
Also. Class Wars will give characters and players incentive to snitch for monetary rewards. Sell your chum out to the show for chy, get chy, wait a day before the episode, sell them out to your corp and get more chy. This encourages snitching, risk taking (You want that characters position and you're a candidate but you're being fluff and not selling them out.) gives characters money to further plots, use their own chy to set up others to later cash out on. Mixers can sell out their buddies telling them which latest corpie they bagged to the show. There's a lot of good that can come from it and staff can budget it's tip funds ICly to encourage subterfuge and betrayal for the divide.

I did witness staff doing something recently to emphasis the divide and hate and it was veeery IC and amazing. Not knowing when your ego is going to blow up in your face at the hands of a offended, angry Mixer. Characters did react ICly to it too, which is what I'm talking about. They took sides and expressed it. All I'm going to say is the characters were askink for it.

This is a great thread to read. Some other thoughts.

To be honest, I don't get why Corpies have any thoughts about mixers. They've made it and they probably give as little thought as to the average mixer as you do to the population of squirrels in your yard. "They're amusing, but irrelevant util they chew through your attic." I just don't see why Corpies 'hate' them or even have rules on why you can see them or not. Heck a lot of them probably have publicly "phailanthropic" views towards them, just like people do about most homeless today. I don't hate you, I'll maybe give you some Chy, but really... go get a job or something.

Frankly the class war that I would see with Corpies is other Corpies of a higher social class. If you're a Junior, you envy all of them. If you're a regular position you hate management. If you're management you hate the leaders, C levels, etc. On SIC, why would I even bother responding to stuff that Mixers are doing. If I say something on public SIC and some Mixers comment, do I care? Not really. They're beyond notice.

Now Mixers I'd see having a lot of envy for Corp positions and lifestyle and I can see hate going that way. My life is squalid, I'll do anything I can to get to the glass towers and caviar. They probably don't realize that there's a stratification in Corporate life.

There probably is a big difference in what position you have in terms of how you feel as well. Corpies who are in a Junior role likely don't have the extreme aversion to Mixers that their more settled and established peers. Heck Junior Corp positions should be pretty much shunned/hated by everyone. They get crapped on by anyone above them and have the teeming masses who want to be them.

I guess what I am saying is that I have a hard time seeing any social divide like that as black and white. I think it depends on which side of the line you are, and what standing you have in your respective group.

With that said, I understand how the Admin's want the game run and am trying to play that way with my RP as best I can even if my personal thoughts slightly differ.

In a Cyberpunk world where greed and corruption are core themes incentivise is definitely the go to word if you want a character to behave a particular way. At present it seems there is far too little to gain and far too much to lose by adhering strictly to theme where the divide is concerned. Why would a character who makes their decisions based on greed risk alienating or aggravating an entire class of people that could prove useful if there’s nothing to be gained by doing so?

A quote from the Assassins Creed Syndicate, a game whose theme was dominated by class divide (albeit Victorian class divide), comes to mind here. "When you steal from the rich it’s criminal. But stealing from the poor, that’s capitalism." - Jacob Frye - A little more leeway for corpses to overtly use and abuse mixers for profit without Judgement could go a long way here in my opinion. There are so many plot loops that could be intergrated into player jobs here with a little tweaking. These are just examples but I’m sure someone more creative than me could think up stuff that would work better:

--Viriisoma needs a product tested? Abduct a mixer.

--NLM ratings are low? Class Wars gets literal with heavily armed corporate goons killing a bunch of mixers during visits to the mix in “self-defence”.

--Medicine isn’t selling? Oops, a faulty batch of vaccine sent to the mix actually GAVE people Ebola but don’t worry, we have the cure at a “reasonable” price.

Besides giving corporate players a material way to gain from the mixes suffering (and therefore be more likely to play that theme) I feel having these kinds of plots integrated more freely into corporate work and happening more overtly (they may already be happening, hence I say more overt) would create more enmity from the mix by retaliation. Mixers would actually have reasons to be wary of interacting with corporate players who could choose to backstab them at any given moment and corporate players would have a good reason to view mixers as beneath them and potentially dangerous (because as a mixer I’d sure as hell want my own back from time to time). This would have the side benefit of giving corporate players more to do. I know I don’t have the full view but from an external viewpoint it doesn't look like there’s much going on up there.

Add that to maybe a corpie wanting to hire out parts of their lives to mixers and the propensity to screw them out of pay could be a very prevalent theme. Whether it's runners to get things for them, muscle to escort them to that trendy dive bar they want to visit, or anything like that.

Since those jobs are not coded in game, it would be theme for the corpie to try and weasel out of paying them what they agreed on. That would add more to people hating corpies than an arbitrary declaration that you shouldn't like this person.

Telling someone you should dislike a group of people is one thing. Having a real reason to do so is another.

"Yeah... I spent two hours tracking down a fecking battery for the Corpie bastard and he stiffed me out of half what he owed me. The Judge on the street just ordered me back down here. Cheap bastards."

Heck... a cool system would be having corporate NPCs offering jobs to Mixers and stiffing them out of some or all of the pay. It would be a "safer" job/task, but you never would know what you got from it. Might even think of doing that for Gold Mixer revenue sources. Sure it's easy, but when you have no legal footing... well... be careful.

On a related note, some Mixer jobs might be "product testing" new drugs or things like that. Real reasons to actually hate the people above.

Honestly, I think The Divide doesn't require a lot of micromanagement- it's pretty self-correcting IC and carries a lot of nuance, too- The Divide is an image and is all about how you're going to be viewed by other characters and how they might treat you. We're already doing lots of work to hammer the point home and if you're finding egregious examples of people publicly doing something they shouldn't, nip it IC.

I also think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what you can and can't do inside of the theme, especially Topside. Not sure that harshening things up will make players do anything but turtle up and be afraid to plot and 'break the rules' to get what they want or need.

If you're a corpie, there's a ton of stuff that Mixers can get or do for you that you can't do alone. They make great minions, spies, and agents at the low end, and if you happen to link up with someone with some power or influence you can find a pretty solid ally. As a Mixer, most corpies have disposable income and nothing to spend it on but you.

A lot of people seem to avoid cross-town interaction like the plague, but that's worse for the divide than secretly buying rat meat or sex from a handful of Mixers. Doing the latter puts you in a position where you have a secret to be paranoid about and gives you a reason to start pointing fingers at your neighbors--and all the better if that comes down to private blackmail or proxy wars instead of just bluntly announcing it on SIC and instantly throwing your plot seed out the window.

At that point the divide enforces itself.

So the main point of this thread is trying to find ways to incentivize people to play the theme of the divide and at the same time find it in their best interest to do so, so that they RP it voluntarily and not just for show.

What things could we add to the game that could achieve this objective?

For example, what would/could motivate a Mixer to hate corpies and at the same time benefit him from doing so?

I am going to build on what Grey0 suggested (basically a numerical faction system), because I also came up with a similar idea. Which I agree might not be best but goes into the scope of possible incentives and deterrents (And people are going to hate it, because nobody wants to lose stuff).

A Mixer could have 'Mix Street credit', and they could improve that by doing an X number of actions related to what the staff thinks its themely for a Mixer to do (kill corpies, do crimes, Defy the law, help gangs, etc).

Let’s say there would be some kind of automated system that keeps score of that and then you can also sporadically be awarded by GMs boosts (x2 points) or bonus points if they noticed that you are 'staying in character' and RPing that themely Mixer consistently or it could also be in reverse, you lose points or are given a debuff by doing actions that would be unthemly for a Mixer (Being spotted eating Sushi Topside, Obeying the Law, Running Boxes in Green, Helping the corporate factions, etc.)

Depending on your 'Street cred', certain 'standard' services or NPCs would be available or denied to you and if you have plenty of points, you'd get access to 'special' services and NPCs of the Mixer faction.

This would reward people who stay themely and hinder those who aren't. Your street cred isn't good enough? Can't join a gang, can't get a lease, can't enter X hangout or get access to X NPC (Ripper Doc, Gang Leader, whatever).

You have a legendary street cred like Seven Ecks? Mixers trust you, they want to help you, and they might even follow you. You maybe get free drinks, or discounts, access to special shops, or you can even recruit random generic Mixer NPCs to follow you and ordered them around, etc.

So basically you could earn cool stuff that is both awesome and themely in accord to your faction.

What about corpies? They get something similar, you are loyal you get access to Space, Aerodyns, Biomods, even MORE perks, etc. You are an exemplary corporate citizen? Then you get access to exclusive hangouts, items, even MORE RIDICULOUS perks, corpie personalities (Meet Chen Mayo or Juicy V) and maybe you even get to be a CEO for a bit, while your boss vacations in Jupiter.

So yeah, this would sort of force the players to work for what they want to have and invest in either side of the divide, you work for one and you lose face with the other.

Corpies would have to actually work for their careers, instead of being handed everything the second their work terminal says they are 'corporate' and get access to anything they can afford, which doesn't take much effort earn in my personal opinion.

A system like this one creates scenarios where money alone isn't good enough and you also need to have a reputation (based on IC actions and RP) too in order to back it up.

This would also generate 'faction pride', players who managed to get high enough in their factions REP hierarchy on either side would have certain renown based on their actions, RP and the exclusive goodies they gained and most likely would chastise or encourage members of the same faction to improve their REP.

No faction standing? Never heard of you, you aren't important enough, sorry. But you get to move around freely and with less scrutiny.

You have negative faction standing? Then you get drawbacks whenever interacting with your opposite faction and most likely will get threatened or even harmed if you make the trip to the other side of the pond.

Anyways, keep the ball rolling there are already some pretty good ideas in here.

It already feels like the game rewards (and punishes) people who play the boundary in smart or moronic ways. I don't know what kind of benefits adding more invisible stats and micromanaging would bring.

The GMs probably already have an idea of the 'power players' IC through various means and will dole out rewards and opportunities based on that.

There is a faction standing system but it it primarily geared towards mixers and gangs.
how would a corpie earn points under that system?

would their promotions be tied exclusively to this point system or would RP between PC's also figure in?

You don't earn points, you use those scenarios to try and stir up tension and rivalry if any of those people ever prove to be a problem for you.
he is proposing an automated system where you earn points.
I apologize! I misread.
I also wanted to say I agree with Supermarket. Somewhere along the lines it became accepted as a whole for corpies fallen from grace to be welcomed into the Mix with open arms.
if you've been following along, fallen corpies initially don't get welcomed with open arms at all. not in the slightest.
They still get it easier than they should. I'm aware of several instances in the past six months where nothing really game changing or severe happens to said characters. Players intentionally go topside, play relatively safe in regards to the divide, stack chyen in their bank accounts, get all the gear, train up for six months to a year from their relative safety, breezing by, before inevitably deciding one day the corp life is boring and coming down to the Mix with all their chyen in reserve to offset any deaths, then walk around some weeks later buddy-buddy with a few Mixers because of their uber combat skills, having never lost training time due to unforseen death from the safety of topside. It really IS a problem because it really IS a trend and it shouldn't be if we we're playing the divide better.
Any sort of hard quantified point system for theme would just be gamified and would influence peoples' decisions.

Staff pay attention already to who's doing what and how they "really" act.

Smexy, what you're describing is not a trend in the game at all. Your information is incomplete and no corpies in the last six months has done what you're describing.

If you think corpies get some sort of golden parachute and don't get fucked with when they come down to the mix and they're just on easy street, it just doesn't go down like that. Sorry.

From my (limited) observations, the better equipped the corpie is that is going into the Mix, the worse hazing they receive.

Just my two cents. Just because you don't SEE someone getting killed and shaken down for their first few months in the Mix doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I never said they got it easy, I said they don't get treated as harshly as they could. And yes, this has happened in the past six months. I've seen it for myself. Weeks later they're rolling around with mixers, or even a public figure in the same predicament a record breaking day later. Just commenting on what I see. And the tactic is smart, but cheap.
Just out of curiosity, what should happen to corpies who fall from topside? Specifically and for how long?
Well, since you seem to know it all, I am not going to entertain your meta assumptions any further. If you think you have the complete picture and I don't know what I'm talking about, I guess we can agree to disagree.
They should be treated as double agents, suspicious of them and their intentions, while making their lives hell on earth until they break or prove themselves.
Your perception of what is occurring is not always what is occurring.

Maybe those fallen corpies are paying for protection?

Maybe they’re living beat-down-free because they’re some bakas bitch now?

Or hey, maybe they had a contingency plan for when they fell and it worked out. Trust half of what you see in the public eye is about the best form of explanation you can get for that.

I agree with Grizzly. I apologize for starting a debate over that. I'm only basing my comment on my POV and what the newsfeed has hinted at.
Well now you're putting words in my mouth Storm. I know you see *everything* going on, and yes there's more to these cases and the characters buddies they make in the mix than meets the eye, but that doesn't mean I've been wrong about everything or that we need to get snarky :)

I'll just say, I've been thinking this for some time, Supermarket feels the same. Who else does? Probably a few others. We're bringing issues forward and offering suggestions and fixes so we can make the community more CP. Sure, those might have been there chums all along. But their characters should be getting fvcked with so much that their misery boils over onto Public SIC. I've seen it happen, it let's me know all is as should be, that the heat is too much to handle and emotions are running high. The falk from grace should be a rollercoaster ride, not a sightseeing adventure in the mix zoo.

That's why Class Wars would be good. It forces emotions on characters based on recent events, involved or not. Your chum busted? How will you handle it? Hate that person? Mock them. It trickles down and snowballs RP for all.
I'm not being snarky. I'm letting you know your opinion on this matter is incomplete/erroneous, and I have no idea how you can possibly assume what another player's stats/gear situation/bank account looks like, that's all.

You may have a point if you're saying that you think fallen corpies should be treated really harshly, which is a totally valid opinion. All that extra stuff you were saying is just noise and assumptions, unfortunately.

I apologize anyhow for coming across like I know everything :P
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Stop taking your IC grievances to the forums.

Characters move down to the Mix because topside is boring to them, or because it makes sense for their character, or because they were pushed down. Even if they brought down the best gear (they didn't) half the city is immediately going to gun for it. If you think they're just going to stomp around like a demigod, you have no idea how the game works. These characters survive by building connections.

Your complaints boil down to insulting a good chunk of the playerbase's RP and whining about them playing the game better than you.

OK then. You have no idea what you're talking about Waddlerafter, but you score an A+ for sounding like a condescending asshat. Have fun, cause I'm taking my 'grievances' off the boards so you don't have to hear my 'whining'.

SO sorry I can't play the game as good as you. I'll envy from the shadows :)

OK then. You have no idea what you're talking about Waddlerafter, but you score an A+ for sounding like a condescending asshat. Have fun, cause I'm taking my 'grievances' off the boards so you don't have to hear my 'whining'.

SO sorry I can't play the game as good as you. I'll envy from the shadows :)

Please stick to discussing issues and ideas and stop personally attacking each other. You don't have to like each other's ideas or suggestions or claims. I highly doubt, however, that any of you know what other people think or have experienced. Do not insult each other or speak for each other please.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

I'll just say that I really love this suggested points system with all of those bells and whistles, but I think it would take up a LOT of the admins' time in trying to tally up points retroactively for each individual player, if that is ever done. The alternative (where everyone just starts on this system with a clean slate) would be a bit unfair though, I think. We've got a lot of veterans here that have done a lot of things to get where they are. But, that's just my two cents on it, what do I know.
Let's try not to get bogged down arguing over a single point in a very broad and important topic. This has been an interesting read so far with some folk saying they feel everything is on point as is and others presenting entirely different perceptions of what is themely for their characters in game.

Points based "mixer/corpus street cred systems" in my mind feel a little gamey but let's roll with the idea a little and see whether it's something that could work. What kind of actions would earn you points? How could something like that be automated? Bear in mind OP has requested solutions be light on gm attention so gm assigned points doesn't really fit with that requirement.

What did people think of my suggestions regarding intergrating more corpie-mixer abuse by default into certain job roles and again, is an incentive based on this something that could be automated?

I really liked BlazingCoconuts suggestion relating to drug trials on mixers and with the facilities in place feel that could be a really nice plot loop players can operate themselves. The doctor would be paid for administering the dose, the mixer for taking it but they could experience a bunch of randomised symptoms

Drug trials on mixers would be very themely.

ZMI/WAI subsidiary’s hiring mixer solos to help field test R&D weapons/armor/ammo in the mix would be cool too. I thought this would be a very cool way to introduce new stuff.

Rolling out a new piece of chrome? Hire someone to abuct a mixer, give it a high pds load, and set them loose with a monitor.

The problem is you gotta have players in these roles to make all of that happen. Sally the secretary at NLM probably isn’t going to be focused on testing drugs on mixers. Corpsec probably isn’t going to care about testing drugs on mixers, and this stuff while all cool and themly and would eventually maybe make a handful of people have a huge divide complex it’s not going to happen in the short term.

One simple solution might be to simply encourage more contact between stinky mixers and their shiny corpie counterparts.

While I know there isreason for corpies to get mixers to bring them stuff up from the mix it's not something I'm aware of happening on a large scale or regular basis. There's a damn good chance I'm just not seeing this happening (then carry on as you are!), or it could be that these things are happening one a small enough scale that reliable, discrete fixer-types get these jobs done under the radar, and nobody knows, nobody cares.

If these sort of interactions were made more common through either bumping up the pricing of basic necessities on topside levels or simple unavailability it should encourage corpies to start requesting stinky immy-clothed mixers to come and drop them some goods on a more regular basis... at great risk to their own personal aroma and reputation of course.

"Hey, Linda? Brian's looking sharp as a knife with that new suit and ace phone, but have you seen all those filthy mixers he keeps meeting up with?"

Interaction is not totally the key. Corpies giving mixers work makes them less likely to hate their upwards citizens. You want those interactions to have a sour taste.

Like take crate running. Why do the corp crate runners always pay for delivery? I mean, it's just a mixer and if they don't come back there's 70 million other ones.

Having corp NPCs ask about getting items for x price and then try to stiff or haggle down sometimes would also be on theme.

Random short term incarcerations and shakedowns on gold would help by npc judges.

All these types of things would give ic reasons for both interactions and also for mixers to hate corpies more. Those things don't have to be really common, but enough that a player sees it say 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 times so they get a bad taste in their mouth. Then the divide becomes much easier to rp because even if PCs aren't screwing you over, mixer characters should be used to getting the shaft and can easily have rp attitude.

Yeah, I don't completely disagree with you Coconut. But I think it *might* help solve part of the problem, in that more regular contact between corpies and mixers should lead to more snooping by corpies on corpies, wondering exactly why X-corpie keeps meeting Y-mixer. Are they buying cheap junk from the mix because they're too poor to go spend half a million on it in the shops like a real corpie? Is my co-worker hiring that mixer girl as a cheap joy because he likes the smell of dog-meat and cheap perfume?

I may be totally wrong, but I can see that leading to corpies shouting their disgust of the mixers from the rooftops, just to keep up appearances, even while they're hiring in mixers to fix them up with cheap stuff.

From the mixer side, I expect doing a job for a corpie is less likely to evoke "Aww, what a great guy, they gave me a great tip, I love corpies" than "Hah, what a baka, I just earned half a weeks wages in half an hour off that stuck up corpie prick, hope he chokes on his overpriced bagel." as a mental response.

(Mental responses for extremely contrasting illustrative purposes only, not meant to sound snarky at you or anything Coconut :) )

Sorry, yes, I agree. (also no offense taken) There should be interaction between Mixers and Corpies. True loathing doesn't exist purely from envy.

Like there's a Basketball star who is known for not tipping people where I live. People HATE that guy because he makes X million and can't give a tip to a waiter who makes a few dollars an hour.

Mixers should hate corpies because of class envy and being shortchanged and taken advantage of.

Corpies really shouldn't think much about mixers at all unless they want something done. You can have a mixer friend, but you certainly wouldn't tell your coworkers or corpie friends about them. You don't hate an animal, you just use it.

Yeah, you need interaction between the classes to foster RP, but it has to be perceived as unjust RP to really have a divide that's easy to get into. I mean, even a system that's coded that no matter what you want to pay a mixer, there's a chance you short them. It's a simple system yet SO thematic. Even if you then have to go back and pay them again because your character really wanted too, the RP of "oh right, sorry, didn't mean to short you..." helps theme.

Two comments here:

First, maybe we need to emphasize the "dirty mixer vs. clean corpie" thing more. I mean, if you live in a place like the mix you are likely going to have a base level of dirtiness that will never come clean unless you have access to better facilities for some time. Maybe mixers should assume clean characters are corpies or in cahoots with corpies and vice a versa.

Maybe have the game force corpies to see other corpies like we do now (as clean as their charisma and showering habits allow) and see non-corpies with some kind of mix dirty tag added on (no matter how charismatic or frequently you shower). While mixers see other mixers as we do now with corpies having a kind of impossibly clean tag added on. Maybe those tags take a week or two to shift should your status shift.

This could be reflected ICly by the fact that mixers simply live in a very dirty environment with dirty water and poor facilities. The grim just gets baked in. At the same time, if that is where you spend all your time it starts to look normal while corpies start to look impossibly clean.

Second, I prefer not to think of Gold as strictly topside. It is full of mixers. It is full of corpies. It is more middleside than anything. Yes, the corporate campuses (including the HoJ) are going to be fairly well locked down and clean but the streets and stores and public areas will have loads of mixers. Just how I've always seen it at least.

"even a system that's coded that no matter what you want to pay a mixer, there's a chance you short them"

XD I like that a lot. Coded non-tipping basketball stars.

But yeah, currently the majority of interactions I see between corpies and mixers is ignoring each other on the levs and cheap-shots on SIC. I don't expect more physical interaction to lead to fluffyness, just gives more opportunities for real, personal resentment on top of the default "We dislike each other because you're one of *them*".

@Grey0 This is an interesting suggestion but it doesn't really make sense in my prespective. A shower is a shower - if you want to go off on scent of physical dirtiness a lot of Mixers don't have access to proper showers to begin with, let alone fancy perfumes, so just look or smell them. Giving corpies 'Hunter Vision' to immediately spot and identify Mixers with zero scrunity ruins a lot of the subterfuge or a 'clean' Mixer catching a corpie off guard at a bar in Gold and learning some juicy gossip or other details.

I'm just sort of anything that further gamifies the interaction/relationship between two classes with invisible stats and gimmicks, this sort of thing should be handled with RP only imo.

I don't really agree. Showering in crystal clear water is different than showering in dirty water. And I know that my uncle, who worked with a lot of dirt, oil and grease always had gunk under his fingernails, in his wrinkles and in his pores despite showering daily - in clean water. I wouldn't say he was nasty but you could tell that he was not an office worker for sure.
True, but personal upkeep like that falls under your Charisma stat already. Someone with low Charisma who is 'clean' looks and smells worse codedly than someone with high Charisma.

This goes for a corpie or a mixer, if you have low-ish Charisma you aren't the type to clean your nails everyday or exfoliate (sp?) your pores. Nice clothing is somewhat of a band-aid for this, but it's really only half of the picture.

I also apologize in advance if I come off as argumentative or snarky, that is not my intention at all.

I am a 'less is more' kind of person when it comes to game/system design, I prefer the RP and players to carry the weight of the interaction whenever at all possible.

Lots of interesting thoughts here. A 'faction system' is kinda interesting but honestly rubs me the wrong way -- would require too much work, and the mixer/corpie divide is far more complex than the one the current hardcoded faction system relies on. I also wouldn't want to see the divide the RP'ed in a lot of ways that is just window dressing to just game that kind of system, it makes the RP and divide itself feel cheap and cheesy, and everyone knows why most of it would be happening -- to farm some points. It makes the RP shallow, which is the ultimate problem with those systems, and why we probably don't already see more of them in an RPI environment at scale.

Your stats / archetype can always be a great way to guide your RP. Any mixer that makes the climb topside can evolve their RP into seeing themselves as superior and that's why they 'made it'. Combat characters think mixers are jealous because they are -actually- tough and can handle themselves when those wanabes can't and couldn't make as professionals and are only worth guarding titty bars or whatever. INT characters can feel like they were smart enough to find their way out of the squalor and any mixer would try to do the same if they were educated enough, etc. The RP be filtered through your character's personality, past, current mood. Don't let it be generic.

I would always say to try and bring as much specificity into the RP as possible, let daily events guide it -- some mixer bitching on SIC about a dipper, make fun of them for living somewhere where they get mugged, or just a snide comment saying 'And that's why I live on Green'. Not every action or comment has to be turned to 11 -- even small slights add to this aggregate, constant feeling between both sides.

Corpies, remember what you can get away with topside. Mixers, imagine you can get away with more topside than you think, because you probably can -- and even if you don't, you'll shake things up and the RP for everyone will be outstanding.

I think something that would be amazing for both sides, truly game-changing for both sides (this was touched on by another poster), is reworking Gold sector. It's already got a LOT going on. It would probably need perhaps a very slight size increase, which I know probably would never happen, but I'm throwing the idea out there. I'm talking the addition of perhaps an additional 4-5 'street' rooms or something, just to increase the overall surface area of it. It'd be amazing to see Gold reflect more of a true 'downtown' megacity. The gleaming megacorp towers / areas are perfect, but the interstitial areas are a smidge grittier, with more mixer/service/corpie mixture, food trucks, NPCs, the new shrouded NPCs, etc. A few fewer NPC judges on the streets. An area still very corpie-leaning and relatively safe for them, but a place that feels a bit less off-limits to mixers, opens up an area for more interaction / crime / etc.

Oh, and I don't know if it's just me, but does anyone think somewhere on Gold that's rentable by the hour would be really nice for quick clandestine corpie/mixer meetings and dead drops?

I'm going to ask staff to take note of the fact that Smexy appears to be taking IC grievances to the forums. It's inappropriate and we all know exactly who you're trying to call out with these posts. Please knock it off.
@SmexyCucumber I have played in the mix long enough to witness that what you are saying is true and 100% of the disgraced corpies received some form of Mix welcome either by beatings, robbings or relentless death. Yes, even those who now enjoy positions of power and influence in the Mix, because they overcame it. After all, the dome doesn't really care enough about anyone to prevent them from becoming anybody forever.
Is not true, rather.
I dunno if it matters at this point but I know from first hand experience that fallen corpies do not get to enjoy life in the Mix. Some might have it harsher than others but there is always something going on behind the scenes that you have no idea about. Hell, there was even a public thing 'welcome to the Mix' that happened in the past three months. Dunno what you're talking about buddy when you say everybody is welcome with open arms.
This is an idea that could be expanded on more for the sake of emphasizing the divide:

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/dispatcher--shrouded-npcs-316/

Getting back more to the "root" idea, it's having more wandering NPCs who do not fit into the places they wander. Shrouded NPCs topside is at least giving corpies an opportunity to report an element that doesn't belong. Hopefully loudly and obnoxiously over public SIC. Obviously Corporate NPCs down in the Mix would get killed pretty quick I'm assuming, but maybe they could do something more... Offensive down there?

Also... Can someone link me to forum posts about better ways to differentiate between Mixer and Corpie? Like... Mixers wear nice clothes sometimes, too. And Corpies like to be experimental with fashion.

If you want me to discriminate against a social class, I need to be able to easily identify individual examples of that social class. Whether it's their clothes, or how they act.

Yelling and shouting at a nebulous concept of a social class is good and themely, but isn't it nicer to yell and shout at a specific person representative of that social class?

I've read everything in this thread and have a few comments. There are a TON of posts so I'm just throwing my comments out there.

First, thanks everyone for responding with your views/thoughts/ideas. It's great to see that this is important to so many of you.

Thanks players and gms alike for helping keep the post on track.

Why do corpies hate mixers?

- They don't 'hate' them, they don't care about them

- They don't 'consort' with them pubicly because it negatively effects their status

- We need conflict or this isn't an interesting game

We aren't talking about harshing the divide, we're talking about what would give players more of a reason to stick to it on both sides.

I'm against a new system to manage your social credit with regareds to Mixers/Corpies because the divide is very nuanced and I don't want GMs to have to actively police it. I want to come up with ways that players will -want- to adhere to it.

A fallen corpie shouldn't be welcomed with open arms, but they shoudn't be killed on sight either. They should be exploited for the resources they probably still have at their disposal (their bank account and gear) and used up, until they hit rock bottom, and have to earn some street cred the hard way. They should be a scape goat for the anger that mixers carry toward corpies because of the day to day shit they have flung down on them (literally and figuratively) from topside.

A few people have commented on the plot suggestions like VS testing drugs on corpies, or 'accidently' (on purpose) infecting mixers with ebola. These are plots we've actually run in the past and will continue to run in the future, but they are GM based plots and require GM attention. I don't want the GMs to have to always be running this specific type of plot for people to buy into the divide, hence this post :)

"Like take crate running. Why do the corp crate runners always pay for delivery? I mean, it's just a mixer and if they don't come back there's 70 million other ones." -- They pay because it's shitty from an OOC standpoint and can leave people stranded or broke in an unfun way.

"Having corp NPCs ask about getting items for x price and then try to stiff or haggle down sometimes would also be on theme. " -- This would work for about as long as it takes a single player to spread the word that those jobs are bunk, and then the BGBB posts about unfairness and OOC annoyance of this would start. I love the idea and in a perfect world where everyone was 100% immersed it would work but... it would just not get used in our world, because people would OOCly avoid it. I don't want people to OOCly avoid time we put into coding thigns, I want them to ICly avoid (or engage) with it. I mean, it would sort of enforce the divide I guess... maybe it's worth a second look. What do you folks think? Would this be a jerk move from an OOC stand point? You work your ass off for a week to afford the thing the NPC topside wants and then you give it to them and they stiff you or don't pay you the full amount and you feel like you've wasted a bunch of time and aren't really even getting much RP out of it?

"Random short term incarcerations and shakedowns on gold would help by npc judges." -- dependent on GMs unless there are PC judges shaking down mixers, and if there are PC judges, you should be shaking down mixers topside, just saying. At least stop and frisk.

We want corpies and mixers interacting, but as many have said, we want it to be a sour interaction. If it's not sour, it build a relationship to easily, as it's really easy to slip into 'they are just another person to RP with' mode, and you stop treating the character with the disdain that the theme requires. This is why we go so hard on the divide. It's kinda the same with our rules on discussing IC info OOCly. We are super strict about it because if you give an inch some people will take a mile.

"Corpies really shouldn't think much about mixers at all unless they want something done. You can have a mixer friend, but you certainly wouldn't tell your coworkers or corpie friends about them. You don't hate an animal, you just use it." -- Agreed

"Yeah, you need interaction between the classes to foster RP, but it has to be perceived as unjust RP to really have a divide that's easy to get into." -- also exactly

So, there have been some great ideas thrown around here and I think the conversation itself has helped clarify the divide for many people, but I still feel like there is more to mine here.

Yeah, the shame is what you say OOCly people avoid what does not work. But the goal is not to make it so that things do not work, but that they are more of a hassle.

So take the crate running. You currently have a certain amount you can do in a day. Maybe it's a certain amount you can successfully do in a day. You may have to run a couple more because you got "stiffed" by one of them. That let's you play to the divide while not sticking someone topside or cutting into what they can earn in a day.ooc

I still think that Gold siders should pay less than Red siders for that kind of work, also fostering some resentment and benefiting risk/reward OOCly.

As for the other way around, the pressure should come as social pressure. Corpies care about position, power, status, and climb. Those things need to appear to be in jeopardy if you want to really make the divide stand out for them. It should be very clear that your chances of promotion, salary and benefits are tied not only to how well you work, but what your social standing is.

So that pressure has to come from senior corpies and perhaps puppeted managers who would have conversations to newly minted and even older corpies about how this is not good for the image of the company and certainly not their career. There should be real social pressure to not deal with Mixers with career ramifications that should be spelled out to corpies frequently.

"Oh... yes, Johnson got the promotion because they had the good sense to surround themselves with the kind of people that NLM likes to be associated with."

Wow... sorry about the crazy English in that last post. I think you can nearly make sense of it.

One other point. CorpSec should get bonuses for getting info on their own Corpies dealing with Mixers. Photos, recordings, whatever. If you give them an incentive to root out people's personal lives then Corpies can live with the proper paranoia. Make it enough of an incentive and part of their duties and you make RP for everyone!

Slither,

Can you clarify what you mean when you say that Corpies do not care about Mixers?

What I think you are saying is that Corpies should not care what Mixers say about them, or what Mixers think about them. The opinions and words of a Mixer are worthless. They are not even worth acknowledging.

If that is in part the essence of what you mean, then what are the consequences of a Corpie who does care? A corpie who lets a Mixer get under their skin? Who acknowledges that a Mixer, through words alone, has gotten to them? Is that something that would be a hit to their status and prestige?

e.g. "Did you hear that Bob got all bent out of shape on Pub SIC on some trash golem who was talking about how worthless accountants are? I mean, he really lost it. Threatened to hire a solo to take the guy out. What's wrong with Bob? Is he really that scared of some trash golem who can't even count to ten, much less balance the books?"