Leave your feedback here for all October changes.
However there's another use case where you'll input something like the following:
fly w w w w n n n n u u u u and it'll bing-bong.
But if you go fly w w w w n n fly n n u u u u it'll work just fine.
It seems very random, and uncommon, I'm not sure if it's room connections that are breaking, or if it's something to do with the flight computer itself.
I might be missing the point here, but it looks like there is just the addition of a GM wall and wait times put into a process for not really much gain to the RP experience of the players.
FIXER TERMINALS
We've removed fixer kiosks from the game world and refactored them into GM-centric tools. -The GM staff felt the player-centric kiosks had removed a key RP-based interaction from the fixer experience and wanted to restore the previous experience.- Please interact with the old NPCs you previously dealt with for your fixer deals.
The terminals (behind the scenes) will continue to offer GMs the same prices you were getting from the terminals, as the GMs are inputting orders for specific players now. Everything else will continue to work the same way.
That was my personal experience with fixers who used to have access to the system. Would be interested to see feedback on this change in a month or two to see how fixer PC's feel about it.
Delighted for this to be a big game improvement for those involved though, so I hope it is.
I desperately hope that is not the case, but I have read and re-read through the reasoning and it just makes no sense to me.
Anyway, I have expressed my feedback and hope the concerns and perspectives given by me and others are being concidered.
Not remotely fond of this update. It seems incredibly counter intuitive.
Access to terminals directly is also the best way to solve the very time-sensitive nature of fixing as a business. I remember times in the past when I'd have to submit a puppet to place an order, wait a day or two on the puppet, then find out that the item 'wasn't available currently' then have to wait another day or so to get back in touch with the client to tell them the bad news. It sometimes resulted in lost business.
Additionally, it seems like monotonous, repetitive tasks are already a problem. I'm all for putting the power in the player's hands, and freeing up staff to spend time plotting and doing more meaningful puppets.
Couldn't the people looking for wheeling and dealing RP with a NPC just.. submit a puppet request to get that RP, and not effectively penalize all the other players who have seemingly been doing a good job of playing fixers?
They automated a task that was happening anyway through a bunch of napkin math, @notes and at minimum, 2 puppet requests. Yes it wasn't perfect but 1) the people who used it didn't know any better and usually can be trusted to use it responsibly, 2) fixing the issues gives you more ROI than outright removing it and going back to an old system.
Also, the RP is not supposed to happen between the NPC and the PC, since it's usually a monotone trivial task of adding up numbers and paying. This RP happens between PC to PC, the terminal simply replaces the puppet requests - this is not a net new gain for RP.
Terrible decision to go back to manual requests. The fixer terminal was working fine. If you can't trust players to use it, fine, but don't say it's to "create more RP".
In other words, you kept the terminals for GM only and removed the PC's ability to enjoy them. I don't think that the terminals will suddenly make the requisition process much more interesting, nor create plots that haven't been created before.
Seems like an opportunity to create more RP for corporate PCs to undergo a similar process!
In response to players complaining about the removal of the terminals, Butako had these things to say.
"You have no many idea how many bugged items got into the game because of those terminals"
"It was an absolute mess to clean up."
"Fixers already have the easiest way to get items in the game with or without a terminal. I feel no pity for this thing being gone for now."
"Fixer terminals are one of the most unthemely things that have ever been added to this game in my opinion"
In response to questions of if requisition terminals were removed
"Nope, and neither were leasable shop terminals"
"There are other means of finding things, that is how the fixer role is meant to be played."
In response to someone asking why you can't just blacklist bugged items
"How the fixer terminals work is it excludes items from certain stores and then gives you access to everything else."
"So if it goes back in it needs a complete code change"
In summation, fixer terminals do not appear to have been removed for RP reasons, and everyone has observed this was absolutely nonsensical anyways. The fixer terminals were removed to code problems and, in my own perception, an apparent disdain for syndicate players. Saying there is no pity for fixers who now have to go without an extremely useful tool, and that they should just find other ways to get their items, is very reductive and adversarial to fixer players who put in an extreme amount of work into playing a very labor intensive role.
I also don't understand why, if the code was bugged, retail locations retained their terminals. I do not understand why there is any perception of fixer terminals being unthemely. Why is it that corporations have requisitions terminals but syndicates cannot have something similar for their dedicated Fixer role?
All the information I am about to provide is available on the lore files and timeline.
Syndicates are megacorps. The Yakuza, Italian Mafia, Triads, etcetera, are all megacorporations. These megacorporations have military power and resources capable of full-scale military operations, and have influence that spans the globe. They are megacorporations.
How is it unthemely that they have a basic logistical network to provide their fixers with goods for sale? That is no more unthemely than corporate requisitions players having a requisitions terminal. The fact that fixers now must go back to waiting days for a simple price check while every other sales role in the game enjoys automation is absurd to me.
I was present for the early days of the fixer terminals being released, and it seemed to me that Mirage was able to remove items from the listing fairly easily. As an offer of constructive criticism, if you canot ascertain a way to blacklist individual items but must blacklist entire stores, perhaps you can make an unreachable store room to add all blacklisted items to the shelves of, and then blacklist that store. That sounds like a simple solution to me.
There was a time that fixer terminals showed nearly every item in the game. However, as undesirable things were discovered as being offered, they were removed very easily from the listing, the same day. I do not believe the fixer terminals would require a complete code change in order to be reintroduced. And frankly, a more honest answer would be to say they will never be reintroduced, if a complete code change is the prerequisite for them returning.
The gist of what was said, is that there could be a compromise created in which there is a way for players to check prices and available stock without needing a puppet request, which should cut down on the amount of puppets required to do something, but still require a puppet to finally order the item.
I'll reserve any personal opinions on that take since this post is for crashdown.
In xooc we were told that the terminals were removed because some items were coming into the game bugged. Removing those items from the list, like other have been, would have been a better use of resources. But others have stated it was because it took away from bartering or something? Guess i am also confused on this?
As for what Batko said about why wouldn't they have a similar set up as say a store term? I agree with as well, why would people on that level take time out of their day to do stock price checks? Multiple people have stated good points on why this was a bad choice. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record- I agree with them.
If you want GM overview of what is being bought, can the fixer experience not just match the requisition system?
Long term, I will replace the fixer terminals with an NPC dialog-based one where you talk to the NPC, it takes charisma and trade skill into consideration, you place an order, a staff member approves it (potentially adjusting the price) and then you go back to ask about your previous order.
But I am just confused. I think this is the biggest backlash I have seen of any decision in the game on these forums since I started playing nearly two and half years ago, and the response appears to be to double down on the decision, rather than at least considering the feedback from the players this appears to effect.
If the feedback is being considered and options are being considered, can there please be some transparency to ease the obvious concern and unrest of a number of players?
Now we have three different takes on why the terminals were removed.
1. because they supposedly reduce roleplay
2. because they were providing bugged items (remove those items from the listing?)
3. because there were items that should not be available for purpose (again, remove the items from the listing?)
None of this is making sense to me. This is a destructive move.
I had no misunderstanding that this wouldn't be a popular change though, as it clearly re-introduces extra steps to the process.
Staff can be kept up to date on bad items much more easily (staff meetings, @mail, noticing new bug reports).
These have an approval process, but there is much less room for charisma and trading skills to be applied here, as its its basically a form you're filling out.
The syndicate suppliers are meant to be more hands on with the fixers.
Also, Johnny, I have witnessed both puppet request imports and terminal imports. Haggling with your boss has never, ever been a thing. Price reductions are based on secret other things that can be derivative of stats and skills and other factors.
You are dealing with corporate bureaucracy as a syndicate fixer.
As it stands, Syndicate play is already a generally discouraging role that's seen a downturn in recent times. The Fixer terminal update alleviated some of the issues with dealing with/being a syndicate member as it allowed for deals in your faction's main mechanical trade (that being imports) to be more fluid than the reimplemented and archaic system of multiple puppets that take up GM and player time way more than they necessarily should. Staff are limited, and them having to answer yet another import request for the 400th time is going to grind things to a halt.
The terminal system streamlined it, and allowed for things to be done in timely fashion, which more often than not was relevant to necessity. Sometimes you absolutely needed that rush order to get items for a job or a plot and were working on timeframes. Now you're at the whim of if and when GMs are available.
There has to be some level of compromise, a middle-ground that can be found rather than a negative change that has seen overwhelming disproval from the community as a whole
I'll be sure to address this report of negotiating not being a thing with the GMs at Saturday's staff meeting.
From an outside perspective, this decision seems really jarring and there is scrambling to come with some sort of explanation for it. I want so badly to be wrong, it just feels like this move massively punishes syndicate players. The specifics of this have been outlined by others who are more knowledgeable than me on it. But even more grievously, future changes seem to warrant skill checks and so on. This could mean if a syndicate does not have a Fixer, the other roles in that syndicate are at a massive negative or must off spec to have reasonable access to these seemingly well-needed systems.
Given the level of effort to enter and just the nature of the person playing the character to even get into these positions, there cannot be an expectation that a syndicate will always have all the roles it needs. Furthermore, if one syndicate does not have a fixer, the only other fixers will almost certainly be enemy syndicates and thus not provide those services.
I understand this is a challenging situation, you have universal player disapproval from players who have been in the game for a long time though.
I am begging you to consider the players that are clearly taking the time to make their cases over this change and to consider implementing something that does not feel like a middle finger to them and their continued efforts in these challenging roles to bring RP to the game.
There has to be something that works for everyone.
I hope to see news after the weekly staff meeting, and hope we can all see the positivity of these changes, or the potential for future changes that sit right with everyone.
Everyone has echoed that syndicate gameplay is busted and that it has been busted for a long time, and that it NEEDS quality of life improvements to make it more palatable and reduce burnout. Multiple times has it been discussed on this forum, and the first code change regarding syndicates I see in months is just making everything harder for syndicate players on a whim. Nice.
So why is using the automated terminal somehow an issue? This is a new reason that has been revealed that was not initially offered.
We're all desperately trying to have good faith as a community and this really comes across as dubious. The theme should be us vs them not the reality.
Proposed solution:
XHELP a link to a gdoc with all the broken items, plot things, RPitems, or whatever else that staff doesn't want to mess around with listed out to the handful of people with access. When they quit, perm, or leave the role, revoke their access.
Allow staff to have edit rights to the document to add and remove things as needed.
Give the fixers who are ordering off the no-no list a smack on the bottom if they do it.
Zero code solution to the issue of bad, spooky, or broken items getting into the game and being a PITA to deal with. Allows the players who are in-role to quickly reference the document and tell other players that something's not available. Staff can update whenever, however. Everyone's happy, no?
It seems like most of the people commenting on this thread are upset that there is not more transparency around why the terminals were removed.
Please consider that in the staff meeting. It would be great if you all could come up with a communication that explains, in as much detail as possible, WHY the syndicates having terminals was perceived as problematic. Not just problematic, but so problematic that the "only" solution was to remove them entirely.
@Johnny said,
Non-Fixers using the terminal was also an issue, yes.
That is the closest that I saw in this thread to a clear explanation of a specific issue with the terminals.
Regarding that specific issue, it seems like the terminals could be placed behind a locked door that only fixers can open.
Placing the terminals behind a locked door is an example of the kind of compromise that I think players are looking for.
Are there not other similar compromises for the other reasons that @Johnny has articulated in this thread?
Johnny hasn't explained why non-fixers accessing the import terminal was an issue.
--- The Main Problem with Puppets in Fixing ---
The main issue I see with the return to pre-terminal roleplay is the huge roadblock puppet wait times will put into mundane day-to-day fixer RP. This isn't a dig at GMs. They do a great job, and are massively outnumbered by the playerbase they volunteer for. We really appreciate all that you do. This being said, for off peak players it's not unusual in my experience to see a wait time of three weeks for a puppet request to be fulfilled. That just isn't fast enough for a fixer who has a customer NOW. And that's assuming it isn't something that requires multiple puppet requests.
Just to provide an example of puppet delays in routine business being a problem, I ran a business pre-terminal and the delay caused by waiting for puppets meant I simply was not able to get stock on the shelves faster than it would sell out. The end result was that the shelves were chronically empty until a player who played more mainstream times took over. Whilst I understand for that kind of business the terminals will be staying, fixers will be similarly impacted by loss of custom as their customers spend their cash elsewhere during the fixers wait for puppets.
--- Non-Fixer PCs having access to terminals was a problem ---
I actually agree with this up to a point. Fixer PCs put a lot of time and effort into becoming economic powerhouses and if characters specced to other builds were getting access to those terminals in the same way fixers were, that is problematic because it puts those non-fixer characters on the same economic level as a character who is supposed to be specced to excel economically. I still don't agree removing the terminals cold turkey was a good solution. I'd far rather have seen skill checks added to the system rather than ripping the system out entirely. That way they'd operate similarly to a market. A non-fixer character can still buy an item from a market but they are going to get a bad deal on it compared to an actual fixer. This would reward syndicate factions with a fixer without seriously penalising factions who do not have them. (Never used these terms so enlighten me if this was already a thing.).
--- Fixer Terms detracted from roleplay ---
Again I can see where you are coming from, but again I think the knee jerk removal of terms has done more harm than good. Before terms existed and back when the playerbase was half what it is now I remember being sent on adventures to go fetch the super rare items fixers seem to have been able to get through terms. It was great, but very very GM intensive and needed advance planning to make happen. I'd love to see that happen again, but think it could be made to happen simply by moving the spawn point of the goods to exciting and exotic locations then challenging players to go retrieve them.
Removing the terms has as some folk have very eloquently said, just created a roadblock in the roleplay that was happening between player characters. I don't see the delays not having terminals will cause being worth the fragments of extra roleplay syndicate players will get when a GM has time to respond to a puppet request.
--- Bugged items were getting into the game ---
This is a problem absolutely, and one that can be solved by giving players a list of items that are banned from the order list or by adding a gm check to the process before the item is delivered. To me it seems like this seems to be the biggest reason the terms might have been removed from the game
--- My ideal solution ---
1. Terminals are left in as a short term stopgap till the long term solutions are implemented.
2. Once the new system is implemented the old terminals still exist as a database for what items exist and ballpark figures on pricing.
3. Players ask an automated faction npc for an item listed in the terminal, then have to haggle using the fixing skill for a price before ordering.
4. After a period of time passes (and gms approve the purchase if we are trying to implement that as a measure against bugged items) the item is spawned at an exotic and exciting, probably dangerous location and the players have to go fetch it.
5. We emerge with a system that has all the checks and balances, little delay, and provides roleplay for all involved.
--- In Summary ---
I think removing the terminals was a knee jerk, short-term reaction to perceived problems which either won't be solved by the terms removal or are in players experienced outweighed by their convenience. Players would far rather experience the inconveniences listed as reasons for removing the terms until a better solution can be put in place, than have the terms removed as they have been.
Thank you for reading.
Non-fixer players with access to imports already get very poor prices. Because they're not the fixer. Fixer characters with stats and skills relating to it get better prices. This is already a thing. None of this is new. This was the fact of the matter before fixer kiosks were introduced, and now this is being changed for some reason.
Out of curiosity. Are corporate requisitions terminals also planned for removal?
I didn't know how bad everything was until these changes were pushed through. Sorely disappointed in how this is being handled.
Why not give LiteTerms the ability to display the schedule as an extra verb? That way it's essentially the same as keeping it on the grid.
Agree entirely.
Huge hats off to managing to get these dynamic-coded TV show guides, but pulling it from the grid feels like another nail in the Grid and its use.
Hope there are plans to bring this code to the grid in some fashion.
Just read the update notes.
In absence of a fixer, the most tenured/highest ranking PC is the only one authorized on the term.
As soon as a fixer jobs the ranks, the other player loses access as the fixer assumes their role.
Problem solved.
1. The processor is the core operator of most cybererware. If it goes down, everything else tied to it, hardened or not, goes down by default. Without a processor, nothing works.
2. Consider the hardened processor in the rebooting of downed chrome. Maybe it can get your kit back online since it doesn't get knocked out in the first place.
