Biggest hurdle for new players?
Think back to a time when you knew nothing, Jon Snow.

What are the biggest hurdles you face?

What prevents you from learning the game?

What do you find frustrating?

Unfortunately, that hurdle also kind of prevents learning the game -- after all, the best way to learn lore, setting, how to play, is from watching the Senior Players (particularly the very well-written ones who know what they're doing) interact with new players, old players and the environment around them.

Despite this being an issue (to me, and a fixable one if you've got initiative), and though it's frustrating in its own way, what I've always considered most frustrating was the history process, wherein you can't really do anything (except RP, see above) until you have a history written, which can take days on its own on top of it sometimes taking days to have it approved/denied and then reapproved once it's denied -- and that's with just a minor issue, like not providing enough names for key players. (Don't get me wrong; I like that the staff demands such thoroughness. It's just frustrating.)

This message brought to you by someone who views a game purely for its RP value. May not apply to individuals taking a broader approach.

I came from another game wherein if you needed to go to char-gen you could, up to a point (I think it is about 10 RP hours). For example I accidently selected a lower height verb than I meant. Now my character is stuck flagged shorter than I meant him to be, because I couldn't go back for ten minutes. For a new player I want to get into the game and meet people, but I want my character to be just right, too. It would be nice to have a brief mulligan window.

Second the help system. 'That's IC', 'read @newbie', and ' use examine' as answers to how to correctly format command or even appropriate commands gets old in a hurry. New players get frustrated and old players get annoyed. Fleshing out the help files so there are a few more with some of the more advanced commands would be nice.

Now that I have been playing actively for several months I finally feel like I know what I am doing with the commands and I am sure there is still tons that I can learn. It is an awesome game with lots of neat features and a robust lore but sometimes I feel like there is stuff my character should know how to do that -I- don't know how to do.

I just want to reiterate that I wasn't trying to be a whiner, just answer the question posed. Once I found RP it was really fun to try and come up with new ways to say, "Yeah I don't actually know how to do that."

When I first started it took me ages to get over the fact that making money wasn't a prime objective. It's still a problem I face when describing the game to other people: "You can be dirt poor and out of your luck, but that's fun!"

So go and find other players (hopefully not in a bluntly obvious way that breaks immersion for others) and generate RP. What do I mean by that? Well, that is up to you. If you want be a summer camper who is friends with everyone, your most common sources of RP are probably going to be social hubs, SIC and your apartment.

Now if you want to play the theme, you need to generate conflict be it with PCs or NPCs, this will bring to your character excitement, uncertainty, bad situations, risky rewards, violence, betrayal, death, etc.

So you need to generate RP, whichever you are most conformable with and in return that will generate RP back to you. For this is very key that your character has goals, small and big ones alike.

Personally as a new player, my bigger hurdles were having to find mostly everything on my own (still doing it) and finally 'getting' the theme. There are some types of characters and some skills that as a new player one is going to find incredibly frustrating, because you don't know how to use them because of the lack of information resources which might in turn make you feel useless or if you spent your UE in the wrong place and this feeling can drag on for months.

Also I have to agree that the progression rate is incredibly slow, which makes mechanical mistakes feel even more unforgiving for new players.

So what's my frustrations as a new player? It's not the difficulty. I enjoy that. What I don't enjoy is the barrier to entry to get into what I really want to do. I'm fine that things are expensive around here and I'm just a new immigrant needing to make my way. I'm fine that RP is the focus, not making chyen, or combat. Really happy about combat not being a focus.

I did extensive research before even creating my character. Spent a good few hours thinking up a neat history, which was only denied once for me trying to have a character that didn't know their true birthday, and then approved extremely quickly(THANKS GMS!). Look through all the archetypes, looked through forums to see what archetypes the current playerbase was looking for, look for tips. Decide that I love the Matrix theme from games like shadowrun and netrunner, so want to make a decker...

Get in game, and for the last week I've spent most of my time running stupid packages back and forth, SUBMITTING RESUMES(wtf I have to do this IRL, why do i want to do that here), pretty much begging for some kind of job, RPing where I can trying to find the same, being told there are no positions open for what I want to do at one company(you have to be FCKING kidding...). It's been a whole week and I haven't even got to touch on the archetype I was so excited to start as. I find out for me to really get into it..I need to get a piece of equipment that's 18k-22k, or find a job that will provide it.

That's the problem. 18k. For someone who only has access to running packages and factory work...that's a quite a bit of time doing mundane work just to get into doing what I really wanted to do. Why can't there be a cheap version that loses connection often or something. Even browsing the market only comes up with laughably expensive stuff.

Why can't there be NPC recruiters at the front gate, and when you get your SIC, they're handing out fliers for various positions. Organized criminals looking for fresh meat with various cheap labor. They don't have to pay well..like I said, I don't care about making tons of chyen. The only reason I want to make tons of chyen now, is because I have to just to really START being what I've set out to be.

Perhaps when you are recruited, you get a starting set of equipment that's subquality compared to things you would buy, but at least you can see what kind of commands your chosen skills give you and what you have to progress to. You know, something to get excited about besides waking up inside your coffin and running more packages...

I think the flaw is too much reliance on the playerbase in this game. If I really have to rely on the players to get a job(doesn't even have to be decent, just let me work!) then that's just going to get me frustrated and want to leave, which is a shame. I really like this game. I mean really...in a dome of 65mil+, how are there not more little side businesses setup, and people(NPCs) looking for people looking for jobs of ALL types...

And terrifying, if you happen to hit the curve.

However, I've played a lot of table top RPG's from WoD 2nd edition (World of Darkness, including LARP), Palladium (Rifts, Tmnt, others), Traveler, D&D's, CP2020, Serenity, BESM, Paranoia, Toon & Dark Conspiracy, and it's always the same.

It's easier to get new skills or learn a little more on a skill you have until you start to get good at it and then it costs more and more.

This game I find it's really easy and fast to get decent and good at a skill and then you hit a curve and I like the curve too. Same with Stats.

If you accidentally plop 6 points into skill 4 instead of skill 5, it's not the end of the world. Especially when you're just beginning.

As for the biggest hurdle when new? There's a lot to learn, to take the time to figure out commands and not everyone is an explorer. I know there are help bits that you read when you first enter but maybe a Congratulations! You found clothes. Now people won't think you're a baka running around bare assed. AND Congratulations! You found the coffins. Return here to safely log out and not sleep out on the streets.

When they walk down to Sinn: Congratulations, you're entering Central Red (vary if it's Gold). Get a gridmail account using the StreetTerm and maybe look at some maps then go check out various bars and shops to see what's where while your immigration papers are approved (see @newbie #6). Watch your step among the millions of people around you.

Just 3 more things at game start which might help get a newbie oriented a little more at the start.

It depends on your frame of reference. Without something to compare it to, you cannot judge whether or not something is faster or slower, and what you have to compare it with influences your perception. An observer observing an object in a vacuum, both moving at the speed of light, with no other referential bodies, would see the object as motionless.

If you are used to roguelike CRPGs, it may seem grudgingly slow.

If you are used to pen and paper tabletop RPGs, it may seem normally paced.

The perception is subjective, but it could be possible to make an objective claim on the progression rate by comparing it to how other games work in that regard.

Yea, perception and what types of games would alter the opinion a little which is why I mentioned, that for me, "I've played a lot of table top RPG's from...." :)

Though I've played video games as well, I don't remember the progression, especially since a lot of it was automatic. And this is my first ever MUD/MOO.

Also, I remember players were reminded that this is sandbox, not linear and there are no quests.

Idea?

Maybe the Help Theme help file could be in the @newbie as #2, right under #1, what is Sindome? Then have RPing Sindome and the others.

I don't feel hindered by the rate of UE gain because I am constantly progressing my character as I play, through storylines with other players, building relationships, learning about the world, acquiring resources and of course bolstering that name which I'm working on earning.

I have never felt wanting for things to do as a new character, because the limitations simply don't exist. As soon as you realize that, it will set your character free. The answer to needing a huge amount of money to get 'started' with certain goals or wants is not to simply passively accrue chyen through convenient sources. If you set your mind to it, you can rocket your progression forwards. As soon as you start making barriers for yourself, that is when you become hindered.

Since then, my rule of thumb has become to spend at least as much on stats as I do on skills, especially once skills start hitting the curve. Perhaps we could add something along these lines under the help for UE/stats/skills/@stats. I know those were some of the first help files I looked over as a new player, and something to let new players know that it's just as, if not more important to advance stats as it is to advance skills could really help with that particular problem.

You suggested that a boost in UE would help increase player retention. But it's important to note that a rising tide rises all ships. If everyone else is progressing just as fast as you, then you've not really changed anything, just the time it takes to reach the cap. I'm not sure dropping the 3 year number to 1 year would really change much for player retention. Or did I miss the point?

There has been talk of AE, assigned experience, but to the best of my knowledge, no system has been thought up that would actually contribute to the game in any meaningful manner.

Perhaps I misunderstood though. Was the suggestion that new players get more UE for the first 2 weeks or first month or something like that?

Be a Mixer.

This is just my shameless promotion and personal opinion, though. I think spending time Mixing is a super good thing for any new player. I'm not saying 'play a criminal' but play someone who lives in a Mix. Philanthropist, criminal, person just trying to get by who leans neither way, street hero, pragmatic businessman... doesn't matter. Learning to play in the Mix is very liberating and I think there's fewer hang-ups for new players such as the feeling that you need to employed by a corp before you can begin playing (not true for any character, but I feel like some people feel that way).

Feel free to dispute me, it's just my own feelings. If you come into the game wanting to play a corpie, then do it! If you're on the fence though, that's my advice. I don't think the attitude that Red is a zone that you must escape as fast as possible is as popular as it was at the time of the aforementioned townhall, but I think the attitude is out there. No man, Red isn't a tutorial zone; for a bunch of people it's our Endgame.

One thought I have, on the theme of finding other players to RP with. As of right now, you can ask any bartender, "Where's the party at?" And they will point you to whichever public place has the most PCs. How about expanding this, so they will give you all the public places that have PCs, perhaps listing them in order of least to most, or perhaps closest to where the asking PC currently is. I think this would help because as it is now, if Korova is super busy and the Drome is kind of busy and you ask a bartender in the mix where the party is at, they'll only tell you about Korova. Yes, mixers like to go party topside sometimes, but that borders on unthemely, not to mention, it's difficult for new PCs to get topside, generally.

For the former, they're already facilitated into every way, adding mechanical fetch quests and objectives isn't what this game is about for them. What they do need to be aware of is the fact that their stats and skills are mechanically useful; and that happens through finding RP which is relevant to their character, hence my argument for visibility and dropping this collective nostalgia that seems to plague the ambient population (honouring the achievements of the old guard is important, but it shouldn't take precedent over the present).

It all falls back into having relevant RP that isn't talking to players about the fucking weather and how we can facilitate that RP. I don't think -much- needs to be done here because motivated roleplayers will go out and acclimate to the game without much of a push, and once that initial hump is overcome I think the majority of the new player dilemma evaporates.

I think just giving them that push that, 'Hey look, there's fucking shit going on to get involved with' will go a long way. Not so much that it robs all of the mystery from the game and that nobody has to investigate what's happening in the city, but enough to let people know there's stuff going on that's worthwhile to get involved with to begin with. Currently new players come into the game and they're barraged with loaded SIC chatter about decade old memes, decade old characters, on the television there's five year old news and there's just so much of this everywhere but hardly a mention of the present. The Globe is working pretty well at the moment compared to some dry periods but it barely scratches the surface, I don't think it's enough to get new players hooked. But there's a whole lot of 'remember those good old days' in the game's ambience that, when a fresh RPer can't seem to find their feet, has to be discouraging. A bit more news, new programming for NLM, more SIC ambience about what the current solos, movers and personalities are up to would go a long way to giving new players a place to start looking.

I also agree on the news front. Yes, it's been more up to date and regular than I really ever remember it being. Yes, it can be better. At the same time, we can't just ask the GMs to do more, as they already to have plenty to do.

So, how do we as a playerbase focus on these issues? How can we help point players in the right direction?

I know someone mentioned having "job npcs" near the gates. I don't think that's the solution. But there is a nugget of gold in there. I had a previous play who tried to hire new characters to build his powerbase. He would spraypaint ads near the gates, drop flyers, etc...with contact info and such. Then when new players saw them and contacted him, he would find out what they were good at and start finding ways for them to be useful to him. Sometimes he would go so far as seeking out immy sic aliases or even hanging around the gates and chatting up immies. That's not very themely for my current character, though I try to do it when it is.

I guess the point I'm getting at is, yes, we definitely need more focus on what is currently going on in the dome and express that in a way that can actually get new players involved. So, what ways can more experienced players make that happen?

D&D, Pathfinder, WoW, The Secret World, it doesn't matter. You start as a level 1 character. Now, those level 1's are trained a *little* more than your average ambient population. You're a PC. You have a little more drive. But, you're still only level 1.

This game doesn't have levels, which is great, but as you progress, you get better and better at things and RP more things.

That's the thing about not being a trained cyber surgeon or a top assassin in your history. You're only level 1. And as we learn in D&D, level 1 characters can get their ass handed to them by mere little kobolds and goblins. Let alone the level 10 plus creatures you see walking the streets of Central Red and Gold. ;) Level 8 if you're lucky.

Thankfully there are no "You're now Level 3!" but as you go out and RP and look around, you start to figure out what you can and can't do yet. You couldn't climb that one wall, well, now. But later? Look at that, you still can't. But oh wait, that 3rd time you try? Yep. (I'm reminded or Runescape suddenly.) *wink*

I think that is a hurdle. This is a sandbox. There are no levels. No notice that you advanced except by skill or stat increasement which helps you gather your courage to try climbing that wall again or maybe explore the park, after you update.

Possible Solution:

But if the newbie is given a head's up in their first windows after entering the city and maybe even in @newbie with a 'How to start' that brings up, that there are no levels in this game and no linear quests but in a way you're level 1 in a new city, now's the time to explore, learn to use the grid and create some contacts, that could be something?

Again, this is about the new players...who clearly have vocalize slow progressing and lack of information as their biggest hurdles so far. Now the staff can decide to devise a solution for these issues or not.

A change to the UE system and improving help files (maybe unlock certain HF at certain lvl skill?) seem like the two most apparent solution for these problems. Now how the staff decides to go about it or not is a different thing.

Other than that, I think this topic is getting a bit derailed.

I'm presently standing there (but I won't be by the time you read this), because I got the New Character alert, and whenever I'm idle and I get that I always try and rush there to give them their first flavor of the city (and send them back for clothing if they forget).

I hadn't gotten my entrance pose barely typed when he disconnected.

I often wonder about these players. They make it through char gen, find their first human to interact with within 5 minutes of starting, and disconnnect.

Can anyone offer any insight into this? Do you think it's because they realize it's a sandbox and they are looking for linear gameplay? Is it a total turn off to get approached by someone when you think no one is looking? Does my character just smell that bad?

You're often seeing the "Hey! New immigrant!" alert after someone has just spent potentially an hour getting @registered and finishing char-gen, potentially with starts and stops and helpfiles and Lore and Timeline reading and maybe even a @history submission. Maybe it wasn't an hour, maybe it was five.

Very often, I see people disconnect as soon as they're in front of the immy hologram and come back later to begin the next phase of their introdictuon to Sindome and Withmore - now that the OOC effort of chargen and more is complete, they might just need to go eat lunch or go to bed, before they're ready to start a new session and get IC.

So yeah. It's awesome if players are willing to go to the Courtyard and show some life to the newcomer. Sometimes it's just not quite "time" for them yet. Most of them do come back - maybe not to stay, but, most of them do come back of they manage to make it through chargen and then the gates, and then take an offline break.

Could make less than someone who does have their papers approved. 75 an hour maybe? Or even 50. Since it would be under the table. But what few places don't have illegal immigrants working for them?

Just in case no one needs any deliveries in the area when they come through the gates.

It's a mindset thing, I'd wager.

Or basically most other MUDs out there.

"So far I'm interested in this game, but I hate that you can't do dick till an immortal approves your history. So limiting."

I am with ShinMojo on this: There is a lot you can do before your history is approved.

On the thought of newbies, fresh newbies, I was curious about the option of SHI being the only place that work might be allowed, but only for possibly 1-2 hours at a time for 1 - 2 days max. (Officially they turn you down. Unofficially, they get a couple hours from you. You get 50-75 an hour and the supervisor pockets the rest. *wink* I'd go with the 50.)

However, there are money making opportunities and lots of contact making opportunities without a history. I made a small amount of chyen my 3rd day with some help. No history at this time. (I didn't submit a history until I think it was my 3rd day playing. That was 3 days doing something else and then it took a couple days I think for final approval. [Mainly due to my schedule.])

The two week newbie safety net unless you're stupid is a perfect length and by that time, contacts can be made and some money coming in from them as well as coded work.

Newbies also need patience.

So my suggestion with SHI maybe being one money making place for 1-2 hours without an approved history, I'm both for and against it. I'm for it for helping brand new newbies a little, but also against it if it ends up possibly stopping a person from thinking outside the box.

It's just very subtle.

In fact calling it subtle may be an understatement.

It's amorphous. And they're used to the structure.

You don't need to submit a history right away. Generally, I don't when playing a new char. I might submit a stub I know will get declined so I have a baseline but who cares about coded jobs? You're here to RP and you can make much more money hustling and working for other players than you can working at SHI or running crates.

New guys are basically homeless drifters. You are asking homeless people to pick themselves up and integrate themselves to the society. That's complete wack. Sure, some lucky ones or incredibly gifted ones do, but is that what the game is aiming for? Maintaining a strict society by gatekeeping? I'm guessing not.

I think I saw you going through chargen and it could have been that by the time you got through creation, there weren't as many players in a position to RP with you because of the RL time. My point, don't judge by one night of play, please. For me, it took a few days to start finding the 'hang outs' and then I slowly started engaging. That's the other thing, people aren't going to just walk up and start chatting you, even if you are a new player (which is usually, but not always, obvious in game). The game theme is about being in a world that wants to eat you up and spit you out. So, most players' characters are going to be either corpies that hate Mixers, Mixers that are skeptical of anyone and Gangers that are looking for a few chy to get by. They aren't 'gatekeeping' but trying to help keep the feel of the game solid. Take it as a sign of how good the playerbase value the integrity of the game. Which means the game is worth it.

My first night I was mugged. And, honestly, I loved it. It gave me something to bitch about/cry about - basically an RP-starter to any players that I ran into. Take the experience as that instead of thinking of it as a 'non-RP' thing. Nothing more realistic than sitting at a bar, staring at your beer and lamenting with the other shmucks around you about how shitty life is.

And, as for character advancement. I really recommend you watch Slither's training videos. Not plugging for the guy, but seriously, they were really helpful to me. He's got a few that are linked on the main page and then more under youtube. There are a few that talk about job hunting, character gen, what to expect, etc.

I've been playing a week, maybe, and I'm slowly finding a niche. But, I'm far from 'well-known' and still running crates and struggling. But, that's what the theme is, so I'm enjoying it. I think if you wrap your head around the fact that the game is meant to make you struggle for a bit - maybe a long bit - then it won't seem so daunting.

Like I read/heard somewhere, this game is about the end-game. About months or years down the road to getting even close to your 'win' and even then, the game is going to try and make you lose. It's your enemy, not the other players/characters.

Anyways, that's my opinion and hope it helps.

That doesn't mean complacency or living in your cube -- the more you put yourself out there (literally) the more chances for opportunity you create, but especially in the beginning when your character just doesn't have a lot of contacts or involvement yet, there's a lot of random chance at work, and in the Mix the random chance means the encounters are likely to be ICly unpleasant (though I'd hope the RP around it would be a bit more rich than that happened to you, that does sound lame and I'm sorry; someone trying to mug someone in a bar seems...dumb).

Sometimes people are lucky and 30 seconds in the gate they might get an awesome WCS Immy Greeter who not only shows them the ropes a bit but RPs like a rockstar and really enthralls them, or they get mugged but the RP inspires them, or they get pulled into some crazy plot that hooks them on the game for a decade. Sometimes absolutely nothing happens and they have to stick it out. It's not perfect but it's our MOO and we love her, warts and all.

Just be patient. Don't let a little crummy RP dissuade you. Keep putting yourself and your character out there. Maybe it happens with another 20 minutes of playing, maybe it takes another month (unlikely) before you happen across the right people or situations. Don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen overnight.

It's a slow game. I get it. I'm just not seeing the game part yet. Well then.

As for not finding RP, that's always tough. If you aren't finding the game to your liking, nothing saying you have to keep playing. We aren't for everyone and I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that. Some people are looking for an experience we can't or won't provide because it's not in keeping with our mission statement.

When I started this thread I was looking for things we can do to improve the new player experience. The recent comments, despite being well written and understandable and appreciated, don't really help us do that. I can understand them and the frustration, but these are ic problems not OOC problems. The GMs don't control the players. The players act within the theme. Aside from paying GMs to be around at all times of day and puppeting NPCs to act as greeters I can't solve this problem.

I want to solve OOC issues that are under my control. If you folks can focus on things that are not the IC world or how specific players treated you on sic or in person, and focus on where we are lacking with help files and systems that could better inform you the player-- then I can help make those changes :)

New Character Power Level

http://sindo.me/mnppj7

GMs do not want players to start the game with inflated expectations about what their newly-created character should be capable of in the game. New characters have very low stats and skills, no matter what is in their @history, so, try to make your @history account for this.

Build a character who -is- a small one, as of their first day in Withmore, and have plans to make him/her big over time as you roleplay out their growth, progress and life.

A couple of examples:

- You can't claim to be a CIA trained stealth assassin if your dodge and stealth are at below par and your martial arts are average and you are slow as a snail.

This means that "high class assassin" is out. But "trained under high class assassin for a few months until high class assissin was himself assassinated" is in.

- You can't claim to be a PhD-level medical expert if your character can literally not draw blood or get a diagnosis with the tools in the clinics in the game.

This means that "Chiba City's top experimental cybernetic surgeon" is out. But "undergraduate medical student" or "paramedic" are in.

See the difference? You can not come out of chargen a combat god. Or a medical god. Or a nobel laureate. But you can indicate that you plan to become these things over time through your roleplaying on the MOO.

The only place I can think of that it could be posted in, that I don't know for sure if it is or isn't already posted in, is the room in chargen that tells you about writing yours. Other than that, it's linked in every place that really makes sense, and merging the helpfiles together would probably make them large and hard to read.

Although, a small blurb in the help history helpfile might work. Something like, "Your character is not a bad ass when they start the game. In fact, you come into the game quite weak. Read help power-level' or something like it.

This was not to say make a character and go do troll/newb/dumb stuff on purpose to see what happens, merely be prepared to go through some coal before you find a diamond.

"These are just starting points to help you design your character. It will take time, work, and roleplay before your character has the connections and accumulated experience points to fill these roles. You will not come out of character generation a bad-ass. You will be weak, and it will take some time to build your character up to where you want them to be. Keep this in mind!"

A: When I first started, I had trouble finding RP. It's true that it's actually not that hard to find RP in Sindome, but when you start the whole danger of the situation is drilled into you so much that everyone is a potential enemy. I got used to it and became more confident and adapted to the danger over time, but it's definitely a hurdle, albeit one that I believe was necessary for player growth.

Q: What prevents you from learning the game?

A: FOIC. See first answer. Sure, it's easy to actually ask people, but when you're new and scared of everyone it's hard to do so.

Q: What do you find frustrating?

A: The sorta reliance you have on GMs to puppet NPCs when you're starting out. I fully understand that GMs are busy people. Still frustrating.

Hologram of Immy comes up with nothing if you ask it about clones. A search on NLM forums only finds posts on Genetek. An ad implies it's the place for clones. Genetek doesn't have an NPC to ask questions to. Only information in the recombination room is about getting clothing. Looking at the machine doesn't give you any information. Examine gives you opaque commands. Still, no implication that there is yet another business in which cloning happens for the living. Experiment with machine. Machine gives you an echo about numbers and letters flashing - possibly when it could be giving you... you know, tangible information. 'Please insert corpse here'. So, you fuck around with the machine. Machine doesn't have a refund function. Staff shrug.

I'm down for exploration - in fact, I think that's pretty cool - but when the newbie grind for chyen is so intensely boring, and can disappear with stupid systems, it's a real waste of free time imo.

No one is forcing you to go do SHI work. In my opinion it flat-out isn't worth doing and is only there so you can go look at it and be like 'lol no' and then go scheme for real money instead.

Knowledge of the Sindome world. What tools are good for what jobs. What skills/stats actually matter for what you want to do. Who can do the things you need done. What is possible and what isn't (both codedly and GM assisted). How to effectively work with GMs and other players to get things done. How to RP your way into serious money (with NPCs and other players). And much more.

There is so much to learn and become familiar with and as you gain insights you become more capable. So yes, stats/skills are not crazy important to your success. At the same time, a new player will have a lot to learn before they are able to leverage themselves as effectively as a more experienced player. I understand how this can be daunting and even discouraging sometimes. But as others have said, this knowledge is best gained by DOING. Trying. Failing. Lots.

Or so I've been told... I still have so much to learn myself and take far too few risks. :-P

(And as a side note, I do realize that a good player will clearly differentiate between what they know and what their character knows. At the same time these characters will probably discover all this goodness much more rapidly and they can even, if I understand it right, sometimes start off as being from Withmore and thus have IC reason for a greater level of knowledge than your average Immy - within staff approved limits.)

I feel like starting Sindome is gonna be intimidating no matter what, both because of the format and setting, and I feel like that works. However, I do kind of feel like there should be more of a tutorial of some sort. Even if it's just a short interview with an NPC so you learn how to converse, then giving you a welcome packet that mentions a couple basic things like getting some clothes, NPC telling you to put it away to teach freehands, that sort of thing. A little more IC guidance to teach commands.

I intended for my first character to be kind of a throwaway to figure out the game with before inevitably getting killed, so I could then make the character I really wanted to play with a better chance of them surviving. I was even kind of impatient for him to die. But watching him build relationships with those around him has gotten me really attached, and while it's unlikely, I hope he lives a long time.

Interacting with other characters is where the game is really at, obviously, and the feeling of being overwhelmed and in danger is immersive. But it can also be discouraging and make it easy to feel like there's nothing to the game but stress at the start, before you've really met anyone, so that's why I think a little tutorial would be good.

FOIC for Mechanical Questions I think that's just people being too quick to answer without understanding the question. It honestly doesn't happen often enough for me to even begin to worry about it being a problem.

I think you're overthinking the mugging dream situation.

They get their question answered in the end, I stopped trying to change how people answer a long time ago.

As far as the ideas forum go, I love it. Sure, not every idea posted is worth the effort and not every idea posted makes sense giving the way the game is made or balanced. But I still love hearing what people think. No one is forcing anyone to read that forum or comment on it. Some truly awesome things have come out of the ideas forum.

There are much better ways to approach a new player and guiding them into the IC/OOC paradigm Sindome uses rather than approaching the issue like everyone on the planet should grok how SD works. New players should be granted a great deal of latitude on the IC/OOC front as they are new, and it takes some time to get used to the way things work.

For example: when a new player sees the word 'limber' beside agile or 'competent' beside a skill they are going to be completely dumbfounded and shocked to find out those terms mean, more or less, 'quite shitty'. So then they have a history that is probably way out of line with stats they thought were decent, and you start getting questions around stat type things on xgame. Typical response is a FOIC stonewall. Find out -what- ICly exactly? That the interface for the game (OOC) is esoteric (OOC) and specific to SD's environments (OOC)?

This is just one example of where esoterica on SD gets a FOIC response on xgame rather than a more thought out response like "Yeah, the stat and skill terminology are a bit odd here, they don't really correspond with their dictionary definitions. Treat them like guide posts on progression rather than a description of where you are at relative to others. The best way to know you are approaching mid-level ability is when you hit the 'curve' and advanced ability when you are heavily into the curve. Find out more on the website."

To be honest, if all you can drum up for a question is FOIC you should probably just leave xgame because in my opinion that's utterly useless and unhelpful.

Couldn't agree more with this statement.

Though at times, it feels like there's some sort of race to see who can type 'FOIC' the quickest to shut down someone's question. It's not needed, and counter-productive to treat new players this way.

Instead of being in a rush to shut them down, maybe try explaining why we're telling them to find out ICly. Like, 'hey, good question, but this might be a something you can ask through your character and they can learn it in-game from other characters.", is a way better response than just 'FOIC'.

Feel that taking time to respond like that instead of being curt with them, would also result in less push-back from the person asking the questions, so xgame doesn't have to devolve into a pissing match, either. And yeah, if you don't have enough time or patience to say anything more than 'FOIC' to a question, maybe don't say anything at all.

As a newer player, it think the biggest frustration I had is expectation vs. reality. For instance, the expectation when you start the game as a new player is that you are going to be something like the archetype that you designed. The expectation is that your skills will be useful in some way. For me the reality was totally opposite. My skills and stats were irrelevant in most of the things that I did. Another example was when I had a skill with the label 'Skilled' yet NPC's told me that I didn't know anything. There are many cases where because of the OOC/IC divide the expectations you have in the game are very unlike what you end up with. I expected my smart character was going to be perceived as smart... I had to ask about how to get out a cube, ask about how to use the most basic things and had to realize that I can't play smart when as a player I'm new and dumb.

None of these game design choices are bad... but the problem occurs because the expectation you have coming into the game is very different from what you end up playing out. It's a brilliant game, but that first few weeks is quite off putting until you realize that you're not a decker, ganger, samurai, comando, or whatever you're trying to play. You're a formless mass and pretty useless. I actually think that there shouldn't be character creation beyond some physical description. Give everyone a minimal level of skill with a bunch of things and let them loose. There would be no expectations at that point you'd know you're not anything more than potential when you walk through the gate.

Once you've played the game enough to find the top of the scale, or even a large portion of the scale, you have an idea how good something is. So this rule is purely punitive against new players.

However, primarily, which ties in with the months of time statement, is the UE problem. I find this upsetting, as, even though it makes sense, the new character gets hardly anything to use anywhere in CG, and until weeks upon weeks pass, are useless at anything except speaking (Which as I know personally, even that will get you killed. Which I should note that you can't fight back against at all at the newbie stage.)

Then, another upsetting thing, is the automated money limit. While it is understandable for months upon months old characters or fixers who could abuse NPCs, it is incredibly frustrating to do one thing, get mugged, (which cannot be fought against!), then have no way at all to proceed until Friday,

Okay, say I make friends with someone powerful that can help. As soon as you've been seen even speaking to them, you get mugged, which you can do nothing against, simply because they are enemies of your new friend. Everything in a newbie's social attempt is the most counter productive fucklechuck that I still haven't managed to get right.

Like

Literally anything. Any of the things you just mentioned.

Wearing immie clothes? Bam. Mugged for visibly being a newb.

Found tailored stuff? Bam. Mugged because somebody wants to chute it for SICcred.

Wanna fight back against the mugger with the bokken that costs half the week's automated wage for some fuckin reason? Oh no. You permed again. Because nothing can be done here.

There's an undeniable instinct to have a max ue "winning" character, and that can be at odds with the experience of a cyberpunk world if you don't focus on the schism there.

Maybe there could be a "Getting Wrecked" training simulation where newbies can get tips on how to enjoy the hard stuff. Like the tutorial would have you being mugged and OOCly tell you: this is a big part of SD. The point is to embody your character in the moment and not necessarily strive towards being the king of shit mountain.

Just a thought.

And hell. I don't want some max UE wannabe Ecks version number 99999.3

I just wanna be able to whip that one shrouded dude's ass. Just one time. It feels like they've been following me for months just to bone me over for the fortieth time. That feeling right there. *That* is my biggest newbie hurdle.

And hell. I don't want some max UE wannabe Ecks version number 99999.3

I just wanna be able to whip that one shrouded dude's ass. Just one time. It feels like they've been following me for months just to bone me over for the fortieth time. That feeling right there. *That* is my biggest newbie hurdle.

And hell. I don't want some max UE wannabe Ecks version number 99999.3

I just wanna be able to whip that one shrouded dude's ass. Just one time. It feels like they've been following me for months just to bone me over for the fortieth time. That feeling right there. *That* is my biggest newbie hurdle.

"Got mugged by an average guy in %color shroud"

somebody then calls that meta in ooc because apparently half of fuller is like that.

Maybe you find that guy. Then a ganger walks up and demands everything because you killed someone on turf. So even if you DO succeed (you won't) you'll get laid out.

The Hulking Mano wearing an xo3 helmet holding a blade

or

Puny Ugly Mano wearing a red logo top holding an ACME crate

The inability to know if your own character is at all proficient makes things unnecessarily hard for new players while older players with new characters don't have that same issue.

Given the amount of threads and XGame comments, It's known that this is an area of frustration for players, older and newer. I just am not sure what the advantage is. I suppose that there is RP to be had in trying to figure out if your good. However, for at least some skills and stats, there's not really any way to ever gauge if you're good or not. I'd think that a lot of noise would go away if people had more of an idea if they were generally any good or not.

Roleplay.

I’m not being a cock here, I’m being serious. As a new player, you’re instinct is to interact with the code and the mechanics. It makes sense, most games are exactly that.

With emphasis, Sindome is not that game.

All of the time I spent playing, while thinking about the mechanics of the game and UE, I was absolutely miserable. The second it clicked for me is when I realized that yes, Withmore is huge. It’s not just you and one ganger on that street, it’s you, that ganger, and thousands of other people. Start treating the world that way and things start to make a lot more sense. What would you do in real life if some guy kept mugging you? Disappear into the crowd? Cast a large shadow? Move quick and stay off the streets? Stop carrying more than you were willing to lose? Learn how to fight maybe?

Also recognize that while the game is brutal, it’s also fair. That mugger might have started before you and be stronger now, but they have their own muggers, or their own problems. Maybe they can’t spend time working out because -they- need to learn how to disappear into the crowd. Maybe that guy you got along with in the bar doesn’t like that guy that mugged you.

Maybe that guy who mugged you mugged some other people. Maybe you get them all together and beat the shit out of him.

In any case, the game is more balanced than you think, the mechanics make more sense than you think, and the wall is not as hard to break through as you think. Treat the game world as a real city filled with tens of millions of people and things will fall into place.

It would be cool if, on the archetype list, the most sought-after ones were put at the top, in order to guide us towards characters that will progress the health of Sindome.

I'm not sure there are any jobs in the game that someone has to perm for the job to become available. There are lots of jobs where someone needs to be removed from their position (via death, incompetence, intrigue, etc) before someone else can get it.

In terms of talking about what roles are needed, I'd suggest making a character you'd like to play rather than worrying too much about what the game needs more of, because your character may be around a long time and people playing various archetypes will rise and fall, but you can't really base your decision making on that, because it's so random and hard to predict. Just play the character you envision.

^^^ a great way to start. One or more badasses (or associates of badasses) will pick you up within a week or so, and you'll be able to decide where you want to go in SD.

This thread kind of degenerated into RP complaints, which Slither had already stated weren't something he's able to fix. Maybe it should be locked.

When I failed, it wasn't because I expected high-octane action or expecting to be a badass. A lot of times I created broken people with issues and really questionable abilities. I couldn't put a finger on why I couldn't break in, and I think I have a better understanding now.

Sindome's RP ebbs and flows. There are specific periods of time where the stars align that an immy can have a really easy time integrating into the game, and there are also periods of time where nobody can pay any attention to the immies, not even the staff.

This compounds the problem where an immy's rp is more or less restricted by the lack of their coherent role. If you have a job or a role that you earned, your bubble of 'reality' gets bigger, as in the things you can attempt to do, and the people you can meet because of that. It doesn't matter if you are max UE or not. Being in that role expands your roleplay and that's honestly what's most important. And that's exactly what the immies are lacking. Roleplaying opportunities.

As for me, I came in during that period where there wasn't really any room for help. A lot happened ICly (that I cannot discuss) and nobody had time for some immy. I stayed as one for a really long time, and in that time I basically just tried to do what I can: perfect unemployed vagrant rp. In a really twisted way it payed off.

At the end of the day the problem is that the immy's don't know what they can do, and this is not about the coded areas. They don't know what they can do to escape being an immy, and how to get involved in roleplay even when they have nothing to give.

The mechanical navigation of things was a bit unclear for me, and still kinda is, but I'm getting it mostly now. I look up the same help info *a lot*, but its a lot to take in. The immigration agents were able to explain a lot of things and helped me feel like someone wanted to rp with me.

I've had a crap ton of fun these past two weeks. The game world is really cool, and I may be alone sometimes, but it's still sorta pve roleplay. There was an rp that had me laughing so hard it was so horrifying and I yelled out at one point. Some things happened that massively set my character back because of OOC derpness, but I was able to convert it to IC struggles of adjusting to the city. That's the whole point of the thing and learning I think. I do have a goal of where I think my character will flourish and get a little interestingly weird, but I'm having fun getting to know the world and my character. Some days are slower than others but I use those times to read the interaction on the sic and on the forums. Learning by observing. I am also oocly convinced everyone in the game is a gm and that I am on the Truman show. I have no idea who's who, and I think thats cool. Theres so many great characters here.

It's a bit intimidating being so thrown in to the game with people who know what they're doing and I super dont, but we're chucked in literally naked and alone with no money in a city of 70 million people. It should be a bit of a dumpster fire. I like feeling like my character is probably going to die at any moment. It's horrible and I love it.

I typed a lot of words. So.

Tldr; grid search thing, games good, enjoying the process, thanks friends

My @histories tend to be very in depth - it's actually my favorite part of character creation. I write the majority of my history and character concept before I roll my stats, so the history informs my chargen choices, not the other way around. I also get a certain kind of satisfaction when it's approved, or see it as a challenge when it isn't.

That said, one of my biggest setbacks following creation is generating RP. Generating, not finding. I'm pretty sure it's a me thing, but I think it also has to do with character concepts, relevant player availability, and lack of/difficulty in finding OOC/IC game knowledge.

I've played two characters in Sindome over a period of...two years? The first was reaped after a long hiatus, so no carry over on UE. The character saw plenty of RP once I established myself as a player with some staying power. While I did generate a small amount of RP myself, most RP I engaged in came to me simply because of WHAT and WHERE my character was. And it was good RP. I enjoyed it. There was also plenty of coded support.

Enter my second character. Wildly different concept, minimal coded support - you get the idea. Suddenly there's no RP coming to me, and I don't know how to generate it. So I try to tag along in RP, ride coattails, things like that, and before I know it I'm sitting in this sort of stale environment in which I do the same kind of rote RP week to week. Now I look back at the months of time I've invested into this character, and then I look ahead thinking, "Is this what it's going to be like the whole time? Did I make a poor choice? How do I improve my experience?".

And here we are. I actually stumbled onto this thread looking for RP and Tips in board search.