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Group Discussion: Feeling guilty OOCly
Should I feel guilty OOCly when my character hurts someone?

If you are new to the game, or newer to the game I will touch on the concept of IC versus OOCly quickly.

In Character

When we say IC we mean In Character. When we say ICly it's like saying that something has to happen/be asked/be told/take place in the game world. It means your character, not you, needs to handle it. Things that happen ICly are things that happen In Game. Things that happen In Game, happen to your character and not to you. If your character is punched, you do not feel it. If they are mad, that does not mean you are mad. IC information is information pertaining to the game world. Where a character lives, what happened the night before at the Drome, who killed who, are examples of IC info.


Out of Character

When we say OOC we mean Out of Character. When we say OOCly we are saying that YOU not your character need to take care of something. If an admin says they need to talk to you OOCly that probably means over xhelp. the OOC-Chat is considered communicating OOCly with other players, when you talk on OOC-Chat it is you talking, and has nothing to do with your character. If you are having a bad day, that doesn't mean your character is having a bad day. They might have just gotten a promotion. Non-banned OOC info examples: where you are from, how old you are, your name, your facebook or aim, anything non-ic related.

IC / OOC Boundaries

There are several boundaries that cannot be crossed (in most circumstances) when dealing with the line between IC and OOC knowledge and how, when and if it can be communicated.

1. A player may discuss any IC information with any admin.

2. An admin may not reveal IC information over an OOC channel.

2.A All IC information received by players from admin must be received through an IC means (npc, letter, grid, etc) except common knowledge (what year is it, where is Withmore located, did we land on Mars).

This means players cannot discuss ANY aspect of the current IC game world with any other player. Telling old stories, discussing the theme or generalized events is acceptable when no non-common knowledge IC info is discussed. For example if there was an event happening this weekend that had been advertised on SIC or TV and grid, it would be acceptable to ask a fellow player outside the game 'Are you going to be around for the RP event on Saturday?'.


All this being said, let's have a discussion that does not reveal any IC information (change names, situations, dates, to make it as generic as possible whenever possible) in which we talk about something that has effected many of you.

We all seem to enjoy a blood soaked, back-stabbing filled cyberpunk RP session in which we come out on top and everyone else is dead. Yes, it's just as fun to lose but that isn't what we are talking about here. We're talking about the times you don't lose, the times where every part of a plan falls into place like clockwork and the board is swept clean of enemies on all fronts, the times where you look back and wonder what you did to deserve the run of good luck that seems to have been the only thing keeping you alive through all the crazy shit that you almost didn't survive, the times where you RP'd your ass off, got the job done and moved up the ladder -- at the expense of another.

What should we call it? Well, we model our world off of real life. So in some cases it's survivors guilt, in some case it's a criminals remorse at their actions. However, in this sense it's our conscience saying -- HEY WAIT, WE AREN'T A BAD PERSON WHY ARE WE DOING THIS? -- and us saying, shit, why -am- I doing this?

We all get into our characters and care for them deeply but we are -not- our characters. Your character might be the nicest person in the world but that really says nothing about how you act in real life. It would be insulting of me to assume that you were nice, perhaps you are just a good role player.

I have lost count of the number of times I've felt guilty for killing another character. This hasn't been as big of a problem lately, as I've tried to pull my character away from that kind of thing. At first I thought it was because I was an admin, but now I've begun to think it's really always been because I feel bad killing someone else's character. They could totally deserve it ICly but I feel OOCly bad. The characters PLAYER hasn't done anything to me, and therefore I shouldn't do something that is going to hurt that player... right? Obviously, that's not the best attitude to have in a cyberpunk game. We are supposed to be ruthless in our struggle to survive and thrive. That's one of the things that drew us in about the genre.

So, this is a bit of a support group for people like me that feel badly OOCly, for the actions of their character. For those who can't help but let some of the OOC feelings seep into their IC actions. We wouldn't feel bad for NOT letting our OOC dislike of a player effect our IC treatment of their character, why should we feel bad for NOT letting out OOC like or neutrality toward a player effect our IC treatment of their character?

The goal here is to work through some of the reasoning behind why we feel like this, to clear the air, to discuss what's right and wrong OOCly, to ask if we even SHOULD feel OOCly bad about something our character did and to be told truthfully that we should not.

No IC info, don't post until at least 3 hours after something has happened ICly to allow all parties enough time to cool down OOCly (just in case), no OOC bitching, the first person to throw ANY BLAME around in this topic is going on my shitlist and isn't coming off of it for a long time, savy?

We play a cut throat game where if you aren't betraying someone you are probably the one being betrayed. Where murder, perma death, back stabbing and lying are not only encouraged but -essential- to survival. There is NOTHING wrong with acting like it.

I'm going to moderate this, and I will respond and address things, and I encourage other admin to as well if they want to, but this is not an official admin thread. Any opinion I offer is my own as long as you aren't flaming anyone or blaming someone for something. Don't take anything I say as any kind of official decree unless I specifically state it as such (if I need to be adminly for some reason during the discussion).

If you're still wondering if this thread is for you here are some basic guidelines:

DONT POST: If you have had something bad happen to your character and you felt OOCly upset or angry in any way, you are welcome to read the responses here to get an idea of where the other persons head was at but I ask that you don't post here. If there is a need, feel free to create another thread for that discussion and I will help to moderate it.

POST: If you betrayed someone ICly, killed someone for an IC reason (money, revenge, gear, etc), robbed someone, ripped someone off, perma-killed someone, ratted someone out, got someone fired, or gossiped and then felt OOC remorse, anger, shame, sadness, regret, or guilt like you had done something wrong or maybe shouldn't have been so harsh or you feel like a big meanie.

I'll go first. Hi, my name is Brendan and for a long time I've felt guilty each time my character does something bad to another character, wins a fight, or out manoeuvres an enemy. I regret not RPing the situation more before killing them or I regret taking as much of their chyen as penance. I wonder if the other player is mad at me, if they think I some how used my admin powers to cheat with my character. Even with the UE limit now, and respecing my characte to be at the max instead of 2000 ue over it, I still feel like I'm cheating by using a good weapon or wearing armor. I feel like if I don't deliberately leave a stupid and easy to exploit weakness in my character I'm doing something wrong because no one can challenge me. It's not even that I'm an admin really... I keep everything so separate in my head... but I always feel like if I'm winning it's because someone else is losing and that means they will quit the game and it's my fault or something. Sometimes I feel like not enough people appreciate how much fun bad things happening to your character can be. Adversity makes for a more interesting game and for anyone thinking that it's easy for me to say that when there isn't any, remember that there is a UE cap now and my character is at it.. and I find that exciting... not just because it means adversity, but because that adversity means I won't have to feel guilty when my character kills someone, because that person dying is going to be just as tough as me and this time I managed to outwit them... but next time could be different if I let my guard down.

Isn't that a bad thing? I shouldn't be excited because I wont have to feel guilty. I shouldn't feel guilty in the first place, right? Then I wonder, everyone says they don't get upset when shit happens, but maybe they are lying. Maybe they are really pissed and mad and just saying that everything is fine. Is that okay? Do they have a right to be mad at -me- for something that my character had every right, even a responsibility (in terms of staying IC) to do? I guess this is the kind of thing I struggle with and I want to hear what other people are feeling.

I'll talk about it from the other direction.

I don't believe my characters have ever been murdered or otherwise fucked with without understandable IC reasons.

I know other players who also have the maturity to "play their stats" (particularly the intelligence one) or to trust the right/wrong character, while OOCly recognizing that there might be an unfortunate outcome.

I'll talk about it from the other direction.

I don't believe my characters have ever been murdered or otherwise fucked with without understandable IC reasons.

I know other players who also have the maturity to "play their stats" (particularly the intelligence one) or to trust the right/wrong character, while OOCly recognizing that there might be an unfortunate outcome.

See, here's where your wording gets my thought process all messed up. You say without IC reasons. How do you know? How -can- you possibly know if someone's actions are IC. You weren't part of the RP that led up to it.. and while I know you will agree that you can't always know.. there are still people that jump to the conclusion that there WASNT any IC reasoning and then they complain and get upset. I don't know which one someone is going to be? The kind of player that understands or the kind that doesn't so obviously I have to feel bad either way.
Well, I only said what I believe.

But at any rate I see that maybe this isn't helpful since you are really inviting people to talk about guilt, rather than find out whether there's butt-hurt. Just like I can't really know IC stuff which I didn't see firsthand, or can't remember post-SenseNet-rollback, you're not really interested in OOC stuff which you also can't know, but are talking about the stuff you do see and feel.

I don't think I have much to offer. Not because I haven't fucked people over ICly, in ways which might have crippled their characters and (who knows) wigged the players out, but I'll sign off the topic.

For what it's worth, I'll generally take staff's word for it if they say there was an IC reason, even if I can't think of it. Of course this means I do tend to ask if there was one if I can't figure it out.
It's been a long time since I've played a character with any real combat skill, but I do remember with my most successful one I did always give him major weaknesses and vulnerabilities. I think that was one of the key ways to avoid feeling much guilt whenever he did shitty things (which he did a bajillion times, and that's just before breakfast).

I would feel a bit bad when the victim either had no idea it was coming, or was a weak non-combat character with no connections or smarts to get revenge. The idea that they have no easy way to try to get back at my character makes it feel sort of like shooting fish in a barrel, except there's a person on the other end experiencing the whole getting shit on thing. But it should just give them more motivation to be smart and find a way to get back at you. If they want to get mad OOCly and then give up, that is unfortunate, but that's their own choice. If they want to get mad OOCly and then resolve to make sure their character comes out on top next time, then huzzah!

Honestly, I've felt worse over things my characters have done to themselves than I have for anything they've done to others. It also helps that my first character was killed through my own ignorance of how harsh the game world is and thus I assumed it was for no good reason. I was one of the ones to bitch and moan about it, so I've been on both sides, and I don't really feel bad for the people who act the way I did.

I've experienced both sides of this, the killing and the dying. There has been times I've wanted to do nothing more than to let things slide that my character wouldn't because I myself feel guilty.

I never have, and that makes me feel worse because I know I'll feel bad yet I still go through with it.

My character doesn't care. He smokes another cigarette says a few choice swear words and moves on.

As my character has become stronger I've often taken risks I wouldn't normally when involved with other PC's. Capturing them, role-playing while giving them a chance to escape among other things.

I think people get pissed when they receive no RP pre-death. Because in their mind they just assume you cheated or were meta, lost count of how many times I've felt disheartened in the game because despite my role-play I still childishly get called a cheater or people simply make assumptions and role-play on as if they know who killed them.

A practice of mine is to log off for several hours, even days after being killed to make sure I'm making calm and rational decisions and this is something everyone should think about doing. Your character is expected to lose their shit.

YOU aren't.

What Pocketface said hit home for me. That's very much how I feel. Logging off after dying is good if you get angry.. I just get excited. Again, it has been a long time since I was the victim on a regular basis. I get that. But there was a time when I was, and I didn't feel bad for myself.. I just set out to try something different to try to prevent myself dying again.. but then when I stopped being the victim and learned from all my past mistakes and outsmarted other characters... that's when I started to encounter those that would actively make me feel like I had done something wrong OOCly by killing or robbing their character. Like I was powergaming just because my character was a bad ass and I RP'd them as such..
"people simply make assumptions and role-play on as if they know who killed them"

It's important to note, it can be just as easy to wrongly assume that the character is using OOC knowledge/assumptions to cheat the memory loss, as it is for someone to wrongly assume there was no IC reason for their death. Though I'm no less guilty of doing it myself at times when it feels like there's no way they could legitimately know.

Some of my best character development has come after dying, not to share critical in character information but role-playing with your characters own corpse is eye opening.

You're expected to feel a sense of loss if your character gets perma-killed.

Because if you don't invest in your character you're doing it wrong.

But a clone death isn't so major items can be replaced, cyberware reinstalled and revenge taken. In game my character has lost an astonishing amount of money being killed, somewhere in the millions and the oldbies I'm sure have lost a metric fuck tonne more.

So don't get upset if you lose your Protek and your PopPop. Roll with the punches, role play the loss and grow as a player.

Some of my best character development has come after dying, not to share critical in character information but role-playing with your characters own corpse is eye opening.

You're expected to feel a sense of loss if your character gets perma-killed.

Because if you don't invest in your character you're doing it wrong.

But a clone death isn't so major items can be replaced, cyberware reinstalled and revenge taken. In game my character has lost an astonishing amount of money being killed, somewhere in the millions and the oldbies I'm sure have lost a metric fuck tonne more.

So don't get upset if you lose your Protek and your PopPop. Roll with the punches, role play the loss and grow as a player.

That's a good point. That assumption can go both ways. I don't want to get to bogged down in what people do or do not do after they die in terms of IC info. We're talking about -why- and -if- it's even an appropriate response to feel guilty for something your character does.
Newb here. Although I can't exactly weigh in from my experiences with Sindome, I'd like to throw a thought out there as a long-term role player;

It seems odd to pick a conflict-driven environment as your choice of role playing game if you can't take your licks.

Perhaps the problem has more to do with the fact that people react badly to their characters being wronged or even killed when they don't understand why. But the way I see it, it's fine not to understand how you came to that junction; it's almost impossible to know all the facts that lead up to your death. Given that it's so unrealistic that you have the full picture, it seems immature to immediately assume that your loss is somehow meta.

Being upset at character loss is naturally - some people form attachments to characters and I think that's totally understandable especially in highly immersive formats. However, taking your frustrating and projecting it at the player of the guilty character is definitely not okay.

To Slither: I can totally understand how you feel from my experiences with other games. It's a normal reaction to feel guilty, but I think it's unfortunate. Ideally, nobody would get excessively affected OOCly when something happens to their character. But whilst we can't be sure how a player will react, and whilst there are still characters who will react negatively, it will be completely normal to feel guilty when our characters take actions that will harm others. But of course it's not because you're doing something wrong by playing a conflict-driver in a conflict driven environment, it's because you have empathy as a player.

Some of my favorite RP was of dying over and over.. it's how I learned the ins and outs of the game.
Man, so many typos. Apologize for that. Time to sleep!
Euclid, that's basically the crux of it. I know I'm not the only one, either. I'm not really trying to throw blame around as to why some players feel the way they do as I don't think there is really any wrong doing going on. People are all reacting emotionally on every side. I think the fact that we haven't all discussed this as a community and have only discussed it in small groups might be one reason we haven't evolved past this -as- a community. I hope this thread moves us in the right direction...
For the most part. Characters are extensions of their players. I'm emotionally attached in a small way to my PC and I think other people are to theirs. It's a human response to feel remorse. Characters may be sociopathic murderers but I for one am not.

In one instance I recall killing a friends character. And I honestly felt bad, to the point I sent him a message saying "Sorry mate, no hard feelings".

In most cases, unless if you have a superiority complex remorse will be felt.

Our characters hate other characters but players don't hate other players. Maybe that's where it stems from.

Emotions will be felt is correct, but for me at least, it's a driving force, the guilt I know I'm going to feel. Like I've literally done something wrong to someone else. Like.. almost run someone over because I was being careless driving. That's sometimes how I feel. And it's not because I fear conflict. It's because for some reason I feel like I am to good at what I do, things aren't hard enough on me, and I OOCly know that I'm going to fucking win 99/100 fights. I think it's that OOC knowledge that I am going to win that drives the guilt.
to clarify this OOC knowledge has nothing to do with being an admin.. it's just being an oldbie...
Hi, I'm Jordan/Lethe. And honestly I get guilty even when my character -emotionally- fucks people over.

I'll be the first to admit, I feel a billion times worse hurting -other- people, than I have ever felt when my own character has gotten hurt. In fact, I absolutely love the latter. Dying, violence, getting fucked over- that adversity and challenge is what makes the roleplay for me. I love the struggle. But so I don't get off the topic of IC actions, and the possible guilt felt therein- yes, I do feel guilty when my character does shitty things to other people's characters. Maybe its a personal investment in the character. Or a bleeding heart, for other peoples characters. Cause you know there's someone else behind there.

@Slither- for some validation, I hear what you're saying about not knowing how one PC behind the character is going to react, to the next, when it comes to adversity, and how you being an admin and metagaming could be called into question. But I don't think you should ever let that stop you from doing something! You should still enjoy the game. You'll never know until you try, and letting the possibility of whether or not someones going to get personally upset keep you from doing something (like fucking them over)... is no way to play. As several other people on the board have already commented, you don't get into this genre of roleplay without some idea that your character is going up against some tough unfair shit (just like real life). And if you -did- think that, well then you learn real quick. And that's when you need to take a step back, a deep breath, and realize it's not at all personal.

Having oldbie (or midbie) knowledge does make things sometimes seem unfairly tilted in your own favor, and that's probably one of the biggest issues here I think. That brings to mind something relevant to this with my current character. I do feel bad sometimes when my character treats people like they're complete morons for trying to ICly learn some kinds of info about the game world or mechanics, because some stuff can be difficult to find out without experience or looking dumb asking about it.

Knowing that your advantage in a situation is mostly because you've played the game longer, but it's how your character would act anyways, does seem to be a major trigger for feeling guilt.

I've let OOC guilt drive IC action before. And that's not good. Now, say my character weren't the sort to feel guilt over something in the first place, that might be an even bigger problem. But for us behind the characters, the puppeteers controlling the puppets- maybe it does just take some distance and putting on our big girl/boy/person boots to accept that we can't change it if other people are going to get upset over something our -characters- did. And hope for the best they're in a similar mindset of ourselves, in that adversity creates some goddamned fantastic roleplay. Fuck eachother over more! And when they get upset, we point them to this thread, cross our fingers they've got a bit of sense and they realize that it's all a part of the fun, and the game.

Easier said than done, naturally. So I think this thread is a decent idea, to help people get some of their experiences and feelings out in the open.

It's interesting to see that oldbies/midbies would feel that guilt over not going out of their way to help a newer character, simply because their own character wouldn't do so in the world of Sindome. But while the OOC/IC restrictions prevent explicit help pertaining to an exact situation, do you guys think that linking a struggling character to a helpful link through an ooc channel is an acceptable thing to do?

Honestly, when I want to help a new character I just say, okay, we are going to help the SHIT out of this guy, basically be their savior.. and then hold it over their heads. Make them pay for all that help by doing my bidding, which, coincidentally, causes them to be a part of some RP right away and on a consistent basis. I think most characters could do this.. it's a positive thing ICly and OOCly and all it really is, is a different way of looking at the same situation.
"You're now my lapdog (but don't worry, it's to help you learn)" A wax on, wax off methodology. I like it.

Definitely a good alternative to just linking someone, one to help promote RP.

My name isn't really important. I've played SIndome for almost ten years. If you've run across me in my various personas throughout the years you've either loved me, hated me, been destroyed by me, slaughtered me, or otherwise had to deal with my personal brand in one shape or another.

I am apathetic.

I used to care about killing people, perming people, bettering the game, bettering others, saving people, etc. I've honestly grown somewhat disenchanted in my time just by watching behavior of players and GMs alike. My own behavior has shifted wildly during my time playing the game as well and I am just as guilty as anyone for this. I have seen the same actions of player invoke opposite results from GM's and staff alike. To an extent, I took that personally and at other times I took it in stride.

These days I've pretty much given up. Not to say I don't enjoy playing Sindome. I do greatly. However, I no longer invest the kind of emotional energy to it as I used too. In many ways, that commitment is what drove me for greatness but also drove me to be extremely bitter at times. While I do value the separation IC and OOC - I refuse to believe that the player or the GM's operate solely based on that. Best intentions, perhaps but the reality strays. I have seen it first hand and frankly, it is what it is. I have witnessed players and NPC's alike take place in the same exact actions that have resulted in wildly different IC consequences on the GM side. Are these things set in stone? Are the GM's aware of something I am not? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Are those same player(s) sharing IC things with others OOCly?

What I have noticed is that each Player and GM always has a distinctive style. A signature. That is what makes the game better or worse for the individual. Who is to say what kind of style is better? That is up to preference.

At the end of the day, the human being behind the keyboard must live with the kind of character they portray or the kind of GM they are. If you cannot, I suggest you find a different role...OR roleplay that inner conflict in your PC. Both the player and the GM are fallible but we are all in this together for the end result of a good time. Remember that.

Not really sure what I'm trying to say here but since we're all airing our emotions - fuck it.

That's what this post is about. Airing our emotions on and around the topic of guilt effecting our IC actions and airing our reaction to those emotions so we can evolve as a community and like someone else said, be able to point at this thread and say, here, we get what you're saying, trust us, read it here. We're all here for the same reason..
I'm surprised at the amount of feedback this topic has gotten and I'm glad we are having this conversation. Does anyone else want to share?
Hi, I'm a newbie!

There is a reason that I'll probably always play a character that doesn't focus on fucking other people over. Players OOC knowledge, I think, is the biggest advantage in this game.

If I had a character with maximum UE right from the get go, my character would be less powerful, most likely, than a player with years of experience that has a character with none. Having both would just compound the situation. I'm willing to use my OOC information to help myself out where logical, sure, but I don't want it to interfere with my IC actions at all. So, in all likelyhood, I won't let it. I'll probably never get to play an evil jerkface.

And I'm sorry for that, too, because I'm sure I could play an evil jerkface pretty well.

I am having trouble understanding your point... it's against the rules to use OOC knowledge in character and OOC knowledge has nothing to do with being a bad ass. Yes, understanding the game mechanics through repeated exposure does give you an advantage as does learning the controls to any game and in this sense that means learning the history as well. And yes an established player has an advantage in terms of who they know as well but that's all IC stuff that has happened and been earned through RP. Everyone has that opportunity.
I guess my point there is that anyone can read the help files, practice their skills, test their skills, read the BGBB, interact with NPCs, build reporte with NPCs, that kind of thing regardless of how old they are. I mean, when I was a newb we didn't have cyberware, drugs were much less strong, and stim patches didn't exist.. if you weren't faster than someone there wasn't as much you could do to even the playing field.. even after all that and knowing that players have access to a lot more ways to get to a high combat level without having to spend years accumulating UE to close the gap, I still get guilty taking someone out, like it's my fault they are unprepared.. and I don't know, they could be RPing being unprepared because thats their character, always not being prepared, and the fact that I'm taking advantage of that actually makes them happy, but I don't know, so I fear the worst and feel bad about it.
Example: My player is an unarmed ninjitsu novice, just slightly skilled, freshly rolled out of the gate. My opponent is is a brand spankin' new newbie who has just as much combat experience, but has all their points in being a pistolero.

Now, reasonably, if my opponent has a gun, they're probably going to win in an even fight, and that's what occurs. We have a mexican standoff at the gates to the city. There's some distance between us, so I'm pretty screwed. However, my character never, ever backs down from a fight. Ever. Unless my character gets shot, then they turn into a blubbering fool who runs away, tail in cheek.

So we engage. My opponent doesn't actually know how to fire his pistol, because they don't know about the examine command that would tell them that 'shoot mutherfucka with pistol' would get the job done. So, as a result, I beat them into a bloody pulp, when reasonably, they should have at least made the attempts to shoot me, because their character loves shooting people who go unarmed into a gun fight.

Now, yes, my character's motives were purely IC. They rushed in and got the upperhand and won. However, should they have? Probably not. My character probably should have got shot and ran away like a pansy. I would feel bad because the other player's OOC knowledge wasn't as good as mine was, which resulted in their disadvantage.

Weird example, but it kind of scratches at how I feel. Sadly, I'm not very eloquent, or I'd explain better.

Im still very new to the game but having been messed with a little i can say, ive never had so much fun.. sure ICly my character was pissed... but OOC it was much fun.. in fact i probably spun it out more than i might have needed too.. because i was enjoying it so much, and it really let me explore and exercise my brain into thinking how would my character react and feel ICly..

I cant say how i would feel about getting permie killed as you do grow attached to your character.. but i guess its all in the fun of the game and i hope if and when it comes then i will find myself refreshed and looking forward to starting again with a fresh character to enjoy the game all over again with fresh eyes.

I guess the crux of the whole thing to me hinges on our own inherent sense of justice.. as long as we feel like we have not been cheated then its all golden. So as long as things all happen fairly and no abuse of rules or OOC knowledge is used then its all fair game.

the one small point that i would raise i know there is a two week protection on immies.. but i would implore oldbies and those that have a IC character that regularly messes with people to spare a thought to helping keeping newbies around.. just because you can and ICLy can think of a reason to mess with someone that is say less than 30 days in game.. maybe spare a thought to not totally screwing them over.. at least make it a little fun for them as well.. Nothing is more frustrating that been totally messed over when you have no chance to fight back/ get your own back.. its a big scary place withmore and it easy to forget once you been here for awhile.

Hi, I'm Jinx and I'll kill you all.

No, not really. But I did have my share of my character's ass being handed to me. Yes it got me angry, pissed and a lot of times it simply made no sense to me why. I don't do characters with combat as primary set of skills, dodge yes, but combat is always secondary or even tertiary. But I've never went out OOCly attacking other players about it... Why? Because the not-knowing is also great RP.

I know I'm one of the few people that likes a beating with a message in game instead of a clone death. And even so my characters aren't usually the one delivering the beating. So yeah, I got a lot of players accused OOCly for attacking without IC reason, but in reality they had one: money

And guess what? That was even before I was an admin.

And I also have regrets of my RP, I once didn't perm one character that I kick myself over to this day. It was a perfect action for my character, it was the guy that killed him weekly/daily, the character hated him, but to avoid any OOC attacks at me and the other admin (and admin rules of the time), I had my character help him. To this day I regret that decision.

In the other hand I don't regret using a lot of money, gear, etc to buy people into doing my characters will. It is themely and it will add to the weave of RP. I usually tend to regret more when I go against my character's personality. Again, I usually don't play "Big Bad" characters, but I was on the receiving end of perming attempts so that my character didn't help another one and all that fun drama. But I never attacked the Player, the character, I HATED HIM, but not the player.

It takes a very thick skin to play a big bad character and the mix should be made of them. It is a pit of survival of the fittest and people should be killing each other, stealing, threatening, deceiving, plotting all the time... Maybe I should try to be one someday.

I'm pretty confused by this thread to be honest. If you are feeling bad about messing with another char ICly, I don't know... get over it. The only thing that bums me is perma-death, but that's maybe because I rp all of my PC's clone deaths as proper deaths and not a walk in the park.

My PC wouldn't be who they are today if they hadn't died and been fucked over by other PCs. And they wouldn't be who they are if they hadn't been on the other side of the fence, messing with people. It's loyalty, betrayal, conflict that shaped the game for me. And honestly? This is what I miss too sometimes.

We are big boys and girls here. Personally, I prefer messing with chars in other ways than killing them, or at least make the kill be the cherry on top rather than go for a brute kill, perfectly justified ICly but still limited in rp interaction. But that is just how it feels best for me.

However, I am still not sure what purpose this thread serves for the following reasons:

A. It is very easy for IC stuff to bleed through even without sharing IC facts per se.

B. I don't understand the aspect of 'my diamond shoes are ill-fitting'.

C. Self-whipping is a bad bad thing but in all honesty, I can't see how sharing here actually improves things and helps your perspective.

Anyway, I am not trying to cancel the effort being made here, not at all. But I think that some OOC guilt is to be expected as is getting over it pretty quickly. It's a game. It's based on conflict. In my view, dwelling on such things OOCly, on a forum, rather delays the process of leaving it behind and moving on. But as I said... that's just me.

I never feel bad anymore. It's a game, and your actions on here don't reflect you as an really to say but stop getting fluffy.
Just to weigh in, I have mostly been on the recieving end. And I -LOVE- it. Yes, you can get attached to characters, it's expected. No matter how different your character is supposed to be from you, the player, there is always that sense of knowing why they want things that leads you to want to side with them. But this being said, I've had characters who were killed for something they didn't/weren't doing, still harbored no ill will. To receive a message like "Sorry mate, no hard feelings" was like, "Dude.. it's a game, Thank you for merc'ing the fuck out of my character."

Understand people, -everything- your character does has consequences. Even if it is indirect. There are many things ICly that factor into things even if you have never met another char ICly, they may have reason to kill you. Where do you work? Many jobs will instantly create enemies you've never met. Topsiders vs Mixers, they should hate each other and want the other dead or fucked over. Even if it's from an error in perception.

Honestly, the only thing that causes negative emotions for me are:

1.) RP not advancing due to play-time discrepancies(which is just frustration, not toward anyone else.)

2.)Fluffy bunny playing. For those not familiar with the term, it refers to those who avoid conflict at all cost(combat conflict or non-combat conflict) and just try to be friends with everyone.

As far as feeling guilty for actions performed against other PCs, I don't feel it. Without the risk of those things happening, the game looses it's luster IMO. So don't feel guilty about it, do it more. :P

Pengwen, this topic is not about ill fitting diamond shoes. Plenty of time has been spent discussing what it's like to be on the losing end of RP and all the benefits of it in terms of interesting RP, revenge, etc. but no attention has been paid to the winners, who end up feeling like shit because they aren't bad people but their characters just did bad shit to win. It's pretty clear that as a community we needed to have this discussion, there seems to be a lot of well thought out opinions, and some very raw emotions. Talking about it is only going to get everyone on the same page, so that as a community we handle this the way we are expected to.
Re-opening my own perspective. I feel like I actually have two things to contribute now. First:

If any message about this game is getting through to me via this thread, it's not one I didn't already know, but it's one which is getting underscored in spades based on what I'm reading here. It's really just re-pushing an old button for me, one which I've been feeling ever since something like ninety days into this game (now it's that plus a whole year) and which I've been telling myself I'd get over so that I could step up my own game.

What message is that?

Have. More. Fun.

As a very new, very young player I developed a bad habit of working too hard to avoid conflict. I got the message that "there's not really a way to win Sindome" (except to enjoy outstanding RP) but I just made up a new corollary which I'm going to start taking more seriously: "there's not really a way to lose Sindome either"... except by failing at RP.

No, getting robbed, killed, fired, extorted, manipulated, two-timed, lied-about, impeded, knocked-out, or permed aren't losing. It's living. And, yeah, dying. When I say it's living, I mean it's living the story.

I'm hungry for different, maybe better, stories. I don't take enough risks. I'm past and over protecting my thin-skinned noob-player feelings, and ready to let my characters' asses hang out there a lot more than I've stuck them so far. And that's not all: My characters have been royal dicks, but you know what? Not enough. Not. Enough. Thanks Slither and everyone else for lighting a fire under my player's ass.


Anyone read the Hannibal Lecter books at all? I'm convinced I'm not a bad person for reading, or even enjoying, them. Yet, you know what, sometimes I do feel guilty. Even squicked.

Sindome is a story. Well, it's a lot of stories. Maybe some are perverse ones like Thomas Harris writes. One thing about stories is sometimes they get to a point where they write themselves - where your character just can't (realistically, ICly) do something different than that horrifying reprehensible thing.

Last comment: When Wintermute mentioned cheating, it helped me put my finger on what the perspective of my original post was. When I said I didn't "believe" there hadn't been IC reasons for things that were done to my characters, it wasn't about knowing ICly what the reasons were, or even OOCly.

It meant that I haven't felt, as a victim or as a perpetrator either, that cheating had gone on - and that's probably the only thing which would make me think that some remorse on the abusing player's part was called for, whether speaking about my own self or about the player of an adversary.

There are no winners or losers on Sindome. So I am failing to see the point being made in that reply; I believe I am entitled to my opinion. If there are 'winners' then people need to be targeted more, rather than air their 'survivor's guilt' frustration OOCly. And in terms of what my opinion is on the whole matter discussed here, I agree with Grizzly and Swashbuckler.
Okay, so for those of you that feel as though the answer is 'stop being fluffy and do it more' you don't need this thread. You're where I'd like everyone (myself included) to be.

While I congratulate you on being able to not feel guilty, not all of us are there. Simply saying to myself "stop being fluffy, it's just a game" for the last ten years doesn't seem to have worked. So I'm trying something new. Like I said in the first post, this thread is not for everyone.

That wasn't meant to be bitchy (sounded a bit bitchy when I re-read it).

It understandable if you don't get why this conversation needs to be had. It's possible you haven't had to deal with OOC Guilt, or have successfully dealt with it. Not all of us have though and it will be helpful to get a group therapy vibe going where everyone just airs out their experiences and what worked for them.

Not everyone is going to have the same skill at mastering a tricky thing like OOC Guilt.

Telling myself that it's a CP game helps sometimes.

Making sure I make the death memorable for the other player in some way also helps.

My post wasn't simply to say, "Don't be fluffy". That wasn't the point I was trying to get across. That statement was moreso just airing what frustrates me, personally.

The main point I was trying to get across, was for the victims as well as the perpetrator, it is a game. Every decision you make ICly will have it's own consequences, be it good consequences or bad. Specifically for the perpetrators, the most fun I have had In Game so far is being the victim. It has already been touched on about providing some RP when killing another character, and that is an awesome practice. Especially for those oldbies who know they are much stronger.

If you need something to help you get over that guilt, RP with one of my chars and continuously fuck him over and bully him. I will give you good RP in return and harbor no hard feelings regardless of the outcome.

Specifically because I know how quick things can turn for the worse, I usually keep rough drafts of my next three character concepts. Something I encourage everyone to do.

Just the ramblings of a new player but .. after replying before i've been thinking about character permie deaths and its has been interesting reading some of the more experienced players talk about it only being a game and they already have their next characters (3?) ideas thought out..

Now bear with me as i admit idly don't know diddly squat as i haven't been playing long and i'm in no way commenting on anyone elses approach to playing, but i'm actually enjoying getting currently attached to my current character, it was a real wrench when i killed off my last character and i can tell its going to be difficult to let go of this one when their time comes, and my point being that i think its ok to be somewhat emotionally attached to my character, (bearing in mind that i'm far too old and jadded enough to not forget its just a game) as i think that its actually letting me play and RP better. I mean if i was actually in the shoes of my character i wouldn't be thinking of well its just a game when im getting owned. Now i know there is a separation from OOC/IC events and i would never hold it personally against a OOC player especially if they put the effort in ICly to make it at least fun/spectacular/particularly nasty :) .. but if i ever stopped caring enough to be completely untouched by the permie death of a character then i think i would actually stop playing myself at least of awhile until i became invested enough in playing to do it proper justice.

Not that this in anyway should make anyone feel more OOC guilty far from it as the more i play the more i 'get' that its RP that makes the game fun... Like i said i'm new here and my opinion could and probably will change but currently i'm really enjoying playing sindome and part of that is the mental challenge of really getting inside my characters head which inevitably means a slight blurring of the player and the character.

I've been playing the same character for almost two years. And I don't have any other character ideas sketched out.

Some players go through toons one every few months. Others stick with one for years. It's up to you what you prefer.

Allow me to explain, I'm not saying completely detach from your character, but back-ups are a good idea IMO in case things go wrong, so you have another drawn up to get right back into it. I think it softens the blow, "Well shit.. this character just got permed.... well, now I can play this character and see what kinda shit I can get into."
Just to further clarify. I really wasn't comment on anyone elses approach to playing nor anyone's comments in general. i genuinely am interesting in how other people are playing and approaching sindome.

All i was saying is my own ramblings and approach to playing currently and to reinforce that at least from my perspective that

a) its ok to be emotionally attached a little and slightly blur the lines between Player and Character so if you feel slightly guilty thats ok...

b) that it is only a game and we are playing for a reason.. part of my reason is to engage with my character so if i feel happy or sad or upset because my character is.. thats all golden with me..

c) that other players shouldn't feel guilty about interacting however they want with me ICly / OOCly . heck however you want because im old and stupid enough to take it and its also the reason why im here playing and not shooting mindless bots on some other game.. its what separates this awesome game from the boring run of the mill games ive come from and now stopped playing.. All i ask is they take the time and effort to do it RP in a fun/interesting/engaging this is what i am trying to do.

I personally know im not very good at playing an actively 'griefing' (an i know that has negative OOC impressions and i dont mean it that way but my vocabulary has failed me for a better term) character thats a hard character to play so more power to you crazy mixed up kids that can, SIndome needs you in here 'pissing in cornflakes', kicking ass and not bothering to take names and generally rabble rousing for the rest of us to spin off interesting RP..

So I am catching flak about this post being to fluffy. That's the point! Let's vent all the fluff here so it effects us less and doesn't effect our play of the game!
Man, I found this post and it made me mad. I got SO much shit from people about this post. I'm not a fluffy role player. I just happen to give a shit about how my IC actions effect people OOCly.

Having feelings makes me a better role player and a better GM. If you have a problem with that, feel free to air your issue here. However, I refuse to apologize for giving fucks about the people I role play with, their characters, their In Game experiences and their enjoyment.

I believe in pushing people out of their comfort zone but not so far out of it that they start to have a bad time. I want to punch people in the feels but not so hard that it ruins their character or their enjoyment of the game.

I want to treat every character with the same baseline, but I also want to push those that can take it, further. I refuse to apologize for that.

what!!! you shouldnt get flak for this post. i feel this post. this post is speaking the language im 100% fluent in.

getting concerned about the feelings / enjoyment of your players is just what a good game manager does. a game is for having fun, right?

oh yeah personally

i think sometimes i have to consciously not only be a jerk to people i already like ooc who i know can laugh about how dumb my character is. im the roleplaying equivalent of when a five year old has a crush on someone and they show it by pulling their crush's hair.

maybe every time a character kills our character we should be like "man they must really like me"

but sometimes my characters gotta be dicks like everyone else but i try not to get player characters killed in a way that i think is gonna ruin their day, like, it's always better to try and set it up so it's entertaining

I agree, it's important to think about these things on some level. Sometimes you'll think "no, they were battle ready / knew what they were getting into / aware and armed / etc." - there are a ton of legitimate justifications for ruining a character's day and bringing them face to face with mortality. Sometimes you'll realize you might be (on the edge of) powergaming based on who you pick and how you set them back, and those are growth opportunities as RPers. Aren't we doing this reflection for all of our decisions - how we reference events, how we talk to people, how we spend our experience points, etc.?
Dear Slither. You and I are pretty much polar opposites in our RP & relationship with Sindome, but we've done much of our character growth in the same 'spawning pool' environment. They've come out quite differently. The way they interact with other characters is different. Is one style wrong, and one style right?

You're the GM, so you can answer that better than I. Where you may suffer from guilt over being able to win 99/100 battles and know it, I suffer from the opposite. From always thinking I'm probably the one people mean when they talk about fluffy-bunny, and from admitted ignorance of nearly all game mechanics.

Oops. Was it Papa Ginos? My b.
I, for one, definitely feel guilty OOCly when my character is able to mess someone up. The only thing that eases my guilt is the hope that it built RP for the player. Even if the situation was bad. I feel even more guilty when a player OOCly expresses that they are angry. But, my OOC motto of sorts is, "drink some water, take a walk, do yoga. We'll still be here when you're ready." And, I follow this for myself when I'm getting upset.
Sorry for the thread necro, and the resulting rant, but I think it's an important topic to be discussed.

I have a lot of thoughts on this matter given an RPI that I played previously. My first five or six characters, did without PKing anyone. Does this mean there was no conflict? No, there was always conflict in some form or fashion but in the end, I'm responsible for how I create the character, what their goals and traits are, I recognize that from the get-go I am setting things in stone.

Do I enjoy playing nice guys? Yes, to an extent. I like having an excuse to not do something, like, so and so kills so and so, why do I give a damn, is the victim in my PC's monkeysphere? If no, then, hell, I'm probably not messing with it, just my PC is making careful mental notes in case it should become a problem for them, at which point justice may need to be administered. Is the dead PC in my PC's monkeysphere? Then, well, there's going to be some hell to pay, possible comprimises to be made on both ends, if, my PC is intelligent and aware enough to recognize they'll get the losing end of the conflict ahead of time, this doesn't mean they will shy away from conflict, they will just be a lot more careful and ready to accept a loss and move on. If the other PC is a weakling it's probably going to be an all-out beating or social savaging, continual harrassment until my PC is satisfied the other party recognizes they've been spared, and since they've stolen from me and mine, they have a heavy debt to repay.

Is the PC insulting mine? Well, who are they? If they are weaker than my PC, I'll swat them away like one of those yappy dogs, make mental note, but otherwise my PCs will typically think them unworthy of extreme retaliation. It's like squashing a bug, they are no threat, I can just humiliate them and move on. Are they on equal level? Hell, insult right back, except be more witty and clever, and see where it leads (had some damn fun RP this way). Having a rival is good for character development. Are they more powerful than my PC, well, here's where we run into an issue, either my PC doesn't know that, and engages in the above mentioned activities and gets tore up for it, or they do and they make note of it, holding a small grudge and awaiting the opportunity to return the favor.

While I prefer not to kill other PCs, and specifically design my PCs so I can do what comes most naturally to me, which decreases the sorts of situations where I may deviate from character due to OOC preferences, I by no means play fluffy-bunny style. I am constantly seeking conflict and misunderstandings to manuever around, if possible. The thing is, perma-death kills the conflict before it ever starts getting really good, and I can choose to avoid doing that to others.

Like, who is this yappy muffugah? I am so much better than them that responding to that's beneath me, if I go all out over this I am losing self-respect. In the case of more extreme insults, such as the death of a friend, the mind wanders to, well, I've lost something dear to me, and killing the responsible party will not bring it back to me. Can I possibly make this baka understand that he's under my thumb now?

But you know, after those first five or so PCs, I did engage in a lot of high-profile killings, either directly or indirectly, and sometimes iced a snitch... this is because playing a long-lived "good-guy" (more like anti-hero stuck in a tribal mindset) in a crapsack world is going to involve a lot of snags, a lot of emotional snapping, and a lot of dispensed justice. I've never thought of myself as a fluffy-bunny sort of player, although my characters do tend to feel remourse and even empathy, I make no apologies for that. As some have stated, these elements create a more realistic character, imo.

To follow up, all my PC killings have felt justified, except two or three where arguably, I could have handled things better, given my PC, their mindset, and the circumstances. I've always made sure the player on the receiving end knows all too well WHY this is happening. I've sacrificed advantages to warn people that they were getting on my bad side.

In one extreme scenario, I made sure to tell the highly popular victim's friends exactly what would happen and why it was happening. Naturally my character was wanted by the law for a while, but that made for some really interesting RP development, and some comprimises to get out of the situation, forming highly unlikely alliances in the process, that simply would not have been possible if I hadn't outed my PC and advertised. This made the whole storyline significantly more epic, the victim PC even sent me kudos for the way the tension ramped up at a creeping pace, white knuckles holding knives under tables as negotiations took place (and failed, miserably) before the unexpected and shocking moment the tables turned.

I think this subject, in depth, could make a good training video, the others are great and extremely helpful.

Oh man...there have been a lot of thoughts thrown here & I have to add mine. I get that IC and OOC are two completely different things, although as has been pointed out, a lot us play characters that are in some way or another an extension of ourselves. I can still remember when my SO's character got killed for -literally- no reason at all (other than wrong place/wrong time). He'd spent months and months building up UE with no backup. It wrecked him and I was pretty down since my character was connected with what was going on...of course, eventually the culprit got what was coming, but it took a while and there was a time when we weren't playing as much. Looking retrospectively though, it's just another example of art mimicking real life. People do die for no reason every day, but man, that shit was intense. I agree with everyone that's it's important to be super clear about your reasons (and perhaps be a bit forgiving for those who don't have a clone unless they are just being a complete baka ;-)
I'm more of a survival sort of guy, so I actually like people fucking with me. It means that I can roleplay without having to be the bad guy in the exchange. Sort of outright griefing, I would presume that most people enjoy heing fucked over ICly, because it mans that there are more things to do.

Wow, actually just spoke of this the other day and with how much I've been scavenging the boards for info; completely missed this. Feel like a goof now.

To share my thoughts, I know long ago the same as now; combat has never been my thing, much as I love it I've just never gotten into it besides sparring (even that can spin the world out from under your char alone). I know I have always been better with playing on deception, mentality and persuasion, and even flat out mind games. Back then was pretty good at it, as well as playing the innocent or trusted companion. Coming back after too long away I've tried to change the pace a little, get out of my comfort zone as you will; but have found even the simplicities of playing a thief are lost on me. It's entirely stupid to feel guilty playing a char that you can come up with all the reasoning in the world, even a complex mindset to accommodate the ruthlessness and more, and possibly IRL even able to pursue such endeavours.. But in a game to feel guilty of? Literally guilty of just stealing not even enough chyen for a drink at the local bar even.. I'm trying to rebreak this barrier, but I know all too well I play fluffy-bunny effortlessly, but it's the conflict that lures me here. I thrive on being beaten down, suffering, killed over and over again.. Yes I get upset when I lose a character, sometimes excessively... But I love that rush more, that fear. If I can put any of you powerhouses feeling guilt at-ease, know that if you savagely destroyed my character with the swiftest and brazen RP, or even more rapidly but reasoned demise, know yes I feel pain.. But love every minute, and await the next when it comes. I hope to be at a point sometime where I can cause just as much for someone else and not feel that same guilt, but if I get to that point, I know it's possibile to help someone else break that barrier too. Until then, sorry if you step on a fluffball I hacked up while trying to live. ;o)~

I've never had a problem with killing in game. I've played an enforcer for guilds in other games with a big body count. This is the first one I've played where permanent death outside of suicide or staff intervention is possible. So far, I think the only thing that would bother me would be perming someone without them knowing there was an IC reason.

I believe it was Slither who mentioned someone randomly getting killed running a crate. That would seriously piss me off, because there's nothing in it for my character. If they've not had the chance to get a a clone yet, I'm just out my hours of work because someone decided to be an asshole ( from my ooc perspective ).

Having a serious in game risk is actually pretty cool, I think.

Yes, the risk is ultimately the drive from my standpoint. I don't have an issue killing (though I doubt much that I will get to that point until deriving a character with the right motivations) except worrying that they may not have a clone, the thieving I believe is more of an aspect of not wanting to take that risk openly, putting my own char at risk. But as for others, I look at reasoning being as simple as not liking the looks of another, or one looking at them the wrong way; doesn't have to be much, just as long as it's a reason. Not just 'I'm gonna kill you'. Hell, last char went crazy on a drug withdrawal. Reasons may not always be seen or known, I just believe they're there in one way or another. The only issue I run into in the entirety of it is forgetting plans that never came to be, and figuring out a new character in chargen. It sucks when you don't know or when it happens in a random turn of events for you, like running crates for example; but as was previously stated by someone, such is life, people die at random everyday, and sometimes for no reason. Some gangs are notorious for it. I wish I could listen to my own words but, yes we all have time and emotion invested in all our characters, but we all came here to play; as long as you enjoy playing remember that dying is always a downfall but it makes the game better as well, for those who enjoy that death it means fun and taking a new path from it, for those who don't it means reinventing yourself and playing smarter; the only time it becomes a loss is if a player gets too frustrated and has to take a larger amount of time away.. But we all need it at some point. Though my leave was not for those reasons, I came back with an entirely new perspective, and though I regret my time away, seeing things anew was worth it.
I'm so glad this thread has continued to live on. I think it's important for us all to discuss this type of thing and have an outlet to vent / discuss how we approach and solve the problem of feeling guilty about IC actions.

I also think it's useful for those on the other side (the ones who've gotten killed, etc.) to see that we aren't just making these choices for funsies. Often time a lot of thought and planning and worry have gone into them!

From the perspective of someone who has slam dunked a few people's things on a few occasions and completely wrecked what they were doing, I do sometimes wonder if the people on the "losing" end are just seeing that as a loss and a bummer or if they're really appreciating the fact that when characters collide there are (usually) very complex and valid IC motivations on all sides and that the conflict itself is the point, not any specific result.

Obviously I can't know the answer to that and shouldn't worry about it, but I do get that twinge of guilt, especially in cases where there's no resolution or aftermath to play out, like with a permadeath or similar situation.

I've been on both sides of things... I've permed characters, robbed them, tortured them, extorted, killed all their special ones right in front of their eyes, took their jobs, humiliated them... and at first I was feeling OOC guilt over all these actions, but there was a point where I realized this is just the theme. This is part of what makes the game distinguishable and so unique amongst the others. I know as a matter of a fact that at least one player has quit Sindome (at least temporally) due to my character's actions. But is it my fault? No, maybe the game just wasn't tailored for their expectations. I've been told over OOC "good RP, man" when I'm done beating the hell out of a character and stealing everything from them and their homes. And of course, I've been on the receiving end of things too, being subject to all kind of negative consequences, and after the anger fades away I think, "wow, this player invested so much thought into taking me out? that's actually a compliment." And then I was deep in a hole where I just had to crawl out and fight for survival, and that makes for a great cyberpunk story. When you learn to differentiate OOC from IC and understand that there's a very clear line between characters and players, you deattach yourself from this problem.
My mind knows that there is an ic/ooc divide. But my heart is weak! I feel guilty every time I screw someone over in character.
Hey everyone, Dawnshot here. I've been playing for a fair while now, and while I haven't been a consistent victim as of late, I had my fair share in the past. While I tend not to get angry when I die or get fucked over (In most cases, I tend to be laughing or so excited that I have trouble fighting back :P because of that beautiful beautiful RP), I understand the anger that can occur in its wake when proper RP hasn't taken place, or the player cannot see all the factors at work against them.

To combat this, I would suggest pushing said factors more once you know you've done something to them if you have a problem with not seeing whats going on. Trying to screw your faction/corp to another corp? Double down and sell out to multiple things. While it may not work in your favor, I can guarantee (from experience) that you will get to see who all is against you and involved in the RP and it is one of the best RP experiences I ever had, and it was on an incredibly short lived character. While an action like this may not necessarily be in your characters best interest, once you see the things at work behind the scenes or the people against you instead of them just being a masked face in some dark alley, it makes dying and getting up again to fight back or protect yourself better -much- easier and more fulfilling.

One thing I would like to gripe about, not regarding myself, is the fact of character suicide once a character is established. It pisses me off every time a character who is not a newbie just trying the game out and wanting to restart with a different build, and may even be months old, decides to make a big fuss and commit suicide because they lost a job or lost an item. I get its frustrating and hard to see where to go next, but if you lose a job as a bartender, you aren't going to reasonably go and hurl yourself twice off a building IRL. You would drink away your sorrows, maybe do some other at risk behaviors, then suck it up and look for more work. I wouldn't be bringing this up if I hadn't been seeing a trend in it lately, because I feel it takes away from RP. Why kill your character when they could instead go find someone to fuck over their old place of employment, or find that lost item, or even get together a new group of friends to mess with the old. So many lost opportunities, for the player in question and those they RP with because of that simple decision

All in all, I love Sindome. This game has been a wonderful escape and playground over the past years I've played. I hope everyone else can experience the joy and adventure I have in the years to come and I am truly happy to see so many players around these days to make RP easier and more fulfilling

Wanted to share some OOC guilt, which I turned into IC guilt.

My character was attempting to teach a lesson with violence to a relatively new character. The power went out at my house, and I RAN to grab my laptop and hop on a neighbor's wireless. I logged in and not having seen the message of the character going unconscious, I resumed the attack (did not type kill). My heart sank as I accidentally killed him. Halfway to getting him to clone, I saw the newbie alert.

If you're reading this, I'm sincerely sorry. I hope for better RP in the future.

I'm just gonna say that my character went through a LOT on their first week, a lot of trials and tribulations and a lot of characters that were 'mean' to him IC.

Trust me, I don't mind-- I've played antags for so long that it's pretty refreshing not being on the opposite side for once. I know this isn't the same as sharing guilt, but maybe I can absolve some people of it!

Trust me, y'all doin' a fine job.

Personally, I often hear other characters talk about perming people in a way that I find horrifying both ICly/OOCly, to the point where it makes me not want to play anymore. Just to offer a contrasting opinion. I know perming is part of the game and that I'm in the minority, but I think playing that card for anything less than the most extreme situations is just killing RP.
Personally, I don't believe in my multiple years of playing that I've ever permed a character, though I have threatened it many times. It adds to the stakes. Making someone believe that you can get them right out of the vats is part of the scare tactics. I don't think I've ever been permed outside of my own fault in the years I've played as well.
I feel similarly about straight killing. I know cloning kind of changes the death dynamic, but I'm pretty horrified even when NPCs will kill indiscriminately and for minor things. I know a few players that have adopted the philosophy of beating someone up to make a point and I really appreciate it.

However, when you spend 30 minutes RPing a scene about teaching a lesson to a character only to murder them at the end of it...what was the point? For the player? Yeah, it was entertaining, but now you've made it difficult for me to RP that my character, who at a minimum wont remember up to an hour ago, doesn't know the 'lesson' you were conveying. They only know they died. They don't know the speech, the good cop/bad cop routine you played, etc. Why bother?

I no longer feel guilt.

what has this game done to me

Why bother? Because we're all players entertaining ourselves and each other. It's OKAY for people to not remember it ICly.

Sometimes you gotta cover your tracks, sometimes you're not ready for an extra rival, etc. It's okay for that 30-60 minutes of RP to disappear from their IC memory. It's still there OOCly.

I suppose you’re right. I can see it both ways. It’s just frustrating to try and let/not let it effect RP. “Oh this person or people are ruthless, but does my character know that?”

I just try to let my point get across in future reactions when my character can’t recall the details or what they were told was wrong. Perhaps that has the opposite effect of what they seemingly tried to accomplish or encourages my character to be a rival.


RE: "Why bother? Because we're all players entertaining ourselves and each other. It's OKAY for people to not remember it ICly.

Sometimes you gotta cover your tracks, sometimes you're not ready for an extra rival, etc. It's okay for that 30-60 minutes of RP to disappear from their IC memory. It's still there OOCly."

I disagree. If you're going to spend 30 minutes teaching someone a lesson ICly, only to kill them at the end, you're depriving the character of the a chance to grow. I am all for ghosting people when they deserve it, but the specific situation that was mentioned 'spend 30 minutes teaching someone a lesson and then kill them at the end' only makes sense if you got interrupted and had to cover your tracks.

There is a fine line between when you should beat someone down to prove your point and when you need to ghost them. It also depends on the archetype you are playing, or playing against. Gangers give no fucks. Don't expect mercy from them. A TERRA agent mind be less apt to snap your neck.

Consider both the IC and OOC reasons and repercussions of what you're doing for your character, the other character, and everyones fun.

Good enemies make great RP. Can't have good enemies if they're permed.

The fact that you can be permed (even if you probably won't be) makes every action in the game have very weighty consequences, which is what makes it all work so well.

And sometimes a baka's just gotta go.

I can't say I suffer from the OOC guilts when I ICly fuck someone, or a large group of someones over.

If anything, I'll think more "Right, how is this gonna backfire on me, and should I prepare for the worst?" but I don't really get guilty about it. I more think along the lines of how this will create that conflict we crave, will it be the RP we want it to be, will it bring more people into more plots and just how many bakas are gonna get creased because of this string of merry misdeeds my character has performed.

Sometimes, your IC feelings are reflected by your OOC feelings, human nature's hard to switch off like that and that's okay, sometimes. But occasionally we need to remember this is a game, and when we perm someone, they get a chance to try something different with their next character, something that they might not have had the confidence to do before, that their plot with your last character might have pushed them to the urge of trying. I don't feel guilty if I perm someone, I don't feel bad if I get permed by someone, I just think about how I can do things differently this time, to keep my next character as interesting to myself and others as I hoped my last one. In my year playing Sindome I've had my fair share of characters, most of them got really dumb deaths when they did get permed. (I won't reveal how because IC/OOC boundaries, but one was hilarious in particular.)

These things happen, we create the conflict we want and then sometimes feel bad when someone we didn't mean to fuck over got fucked over. But, chin up chums they get to try something new this time around. I always look forward to my characters getting into conflicts I should feel guilty for, and I always have my next character's base ideas there, things I might wanna try that I wouldn't on my current, usually inspired by events that took place with my current. Usually, this means the likes of I might have had a close relationship with a doctor, so next I might be tempted to try a ripper doc or a biomod surgeon.

Guilt is natural, but we need to remember that we're gonna kill each other in SIndome, it's a massive part of the game. So, I myself tend not to feel it when I just gotta make someone's life a misery.

Sometimes good enemies don't fit your current goals and you need to make sacrifices for your more immediately needs/desires. If you spend too much time worrying about the long term, you sacrifice your short term, and I think it's best to stack a lot of short term goals to keep yourself busy, and let the long term develop on it's own.

That way you don't need to make OOC decisions about roleplay like people are suggesting.

The only time I am going to let someone live if they witness me is if I am on a NPC or I literally imagine no threat from that particular person. My PCs are very good at causing conflict and inviting people to hate them. I don't suffer the same lack of rivalry that other people do because I don't always play safe. Part of the roleplay is making consequences real, making examples out of people who cross you, witness you, or otherwise threaten your security level in some way.

When you play like that, you don't need to make these types of OOC considerations.

However, if you struggle for that type of attention, or struggle with the idea of putting yourself out there, then I suggest you do make some sacrifices and put yourself in these uncomfortable situations where you allow people to live when they probably shouldn't be allowed to, because if you have nothing else to do if they forget everything that happened, then you desperately need to keep that alive.

That's a crappy problem to have, if you ask me.

I gotta agree with you on some level here, Cerb. But, I feel a character should have several short term goals that all link to them achieving their long term goals, as well as some that don't like to their long term goals at all. I also agree with using others to set an example. Sometimes, people were just in the wrong place, wrong time and they gotta be taken care of before they become a problem. However, more often than not I find we can do that without killing them, that bribing, blackmailing and otherwise making them work for you can create great amounts of RP and equal amounts of conflict through that.
Sure, always a possibility, but you gotta do what is IC for your character and your financial situation and other considerations as well.

Some people don't have time to waste measuring someone elses risk factor against your plans.

I think it's personally irresponsible to think that everyone can get involved in your goals and you have any reasonable expectation that they're going to succeed. This is a cyberpunk MOO. If you don't think everyone is going to sell you out, betray you, or otherwise fuck your shit up at the first stack of ten thousand chyen offered to them, then you're not playing the theme.

If you're bored enough where you need to have those things happen to you for you to have fun, SURE, do what you need to do, I'm just saying that no one here should EXPECT people to make those considerations because they're OOC and for special circumstances.


Honestly, 90% of my current character's basis has a paranoia feel to it. Nevermind ten thousand chyen, they'd be worried about someone selling them out for ten chyen. Money is money, and greed is a major theme for us.

I think of all the characters I've played over my time here, my current would be the one most likely to act in the way you've explained, where everyone is a potential risk factor and should either not be trusted, or taken out entirely before they become a problem. Especially if they witness something otherwise incriminating towards my character.

Unfortunately, not everyone sees the world the same way however, so not all of my characters will be that careful (or careless depending on your view.) We can't all be that shoot first ask no questions mano or mona, some have to be the thinkers, the plotters rather than the doers. Still, I digress from the topic. Guilt shouldn't be an issue when it comes to IC conflict, especially not OOC guilt, that tends to limit you in what you're truly willing to try out for the sake of truly good RP.

At first I was convinced to play a likeable character you had to have the character have innocent, basic goals. I no longer have those for my character, now I work my ASS off pursing their selfish ambitions and paving over people in the way there IS SO FUN. Nothing personal!
My character has done things that I can't say here for game reasons, but it would be disturbing if someone irl told me they did the exact same thing. I keep having to disassociate as an author and be like... okay I'm not like this for real. I'm not!

But boy is this game fun :D

Hey everyone,

Although I'm fairly new to the game, I'm going to be speaking from 10+ years of experience I have RPing characters. The types of characters - regardless of the theme of the RP - I play have been, for the majority, assholes. To give an example;

I've played the captain of a platoon in a military themed RP. My character was the biggest asshole you could ever imagine. I bullied other characters, made them do my bidding just because I had the power and basically forced them to act as my servants. Why did I do this, though? It wasn't to satisfy my ego or show that I had the biggest e-peen around. Even though my character had the means to do so, I hardly ever ghosted or permed a character. Instead, I nurtured rivalries and watched said players grow in terms of chardev and RP.

Could I have done it? Yeah, very much so. Did I -have- to do it? No. It's always been my personal belief that a rivalry shouldn't end the character arc of another player unless it's absolutely needed to. Do something else. Rivalries are supposed to provide RP and development, not end it. Perming someone is just.. buzzkill most of the time. (exceptions can be made, obviously.)

Maybe irrelevant, but I believe with great power, comes great responsibility. Once I reach a certain place on my character - a place of power, while I continue to RP my character, I OOCly instead start focusing on other players. I nurture healthy rivalries and friendships, especially for newer characters, and watch them grow. It's what I did in these past ten years, and it's what I enjoy. Those rivalries, the characters that have hated mine for making their IC lives an absolute hell, have told me it was some of the best RP they had and they love me for allowing them to develop their character.

It's probably why I don't feel guilty OOCly when I do something that might hurt a character, or vice versa. It's a character arc. Even in the real world, things don't go your way. You gotta accept that.

Even if you hurt someone ICly, you'll be providing them with more RP opportunities and development than you could have if you were all chummy. Focus on that. Nurture a rivalry, hurt them - but give them room to grow themselves. It's what it's all about. Enjoy the game, and make others enjoy it, too.

That's my five cents. I'm open to discussion about my viewpoint on this, and I -love- discussing (in a civilized manner!) - so please, if you have anything to talk about, hit me up without doubting yourself.

Thanks for reading, and your time.

Rangerkrauser, sounds to me like your RP style and attitude are working for you and for the game, too. It certainly seems to echo a lot of what I've been hearing on this topic.

Like you said, RP opportunities, conflict, and rivalry are chances for a character to grow. Climbing over other characters is stongly and vocally within theme.


I'd like to make the argument that climbing over other character is not the only way to create RP opportunities, conflict, and rivalry. Adding textural depth, vulnerability, humanity, religious fervor, creativity, storytelling, character development, environment development, intrigue, exploration...these are all fun RP which can be the basis for IC goals which are (from what I can tell) in keeping with CP theme.

The reason I bring this up is that over a character arc of <10yrs, you will be faced with some of the hardest OOC guilt moments you can imagine. You care about your game, your community, and your own health. OOC guilt first came to me in the form of being told that I was known for killing a lot of characters, when that was not my character design (shit, am I failing at RPing a non-combat character?). The second most OOC guilt I've felt was after learning that my own work/play schedule was hurting others' chance at having fun and achieving their own IC goals. Both of these experiences have, with time, shaped how I play Sindome. You can browse many discussion threads about 'damn oldbies' in the forum archives, and you -do- have a choice about what kind you want to be. If anybody reading this is facing similar guilt, there is still a way to find OOC happiness in contributing ICly. Just be prepared to know not everyone will ICly respect you...and that may lead to OOC lack of respect. Be strong.

If SD only attracts & retains one kind of gamer then it might be a bit boring/ one dimensional. We're each going to have to do what it takes to separate the IC world from reality, for our own health & emotion. And I think we'll get a richer, deeper world because of it. Take care.

If this was a few years ago when I played at the height of my most notorious character, I would say yes I had some remorse because a lot of times it was critical to an IC plan or circumstances to kill them but it probably would have been a better plot/scenario not to.

Then when I was a GM, to avoid any accusations from the player side of misuse, I intentionally went the extra mile to “dumb down “. Now that I play again and not GMing, I simply use restraint

and only kill someone if it lines up with specific criteria set fourth by my character; For example if my character were to stick you up, you probably wouldn’t die to avoid your revenge over your wallet with 500c in it. It’s just a point of view developed after being on both sides I guess.

I'm pretty new here still, and my experience with fucking people over is in its adolescence. Having said that, I have yet to feel any kind of remorse for screwing over another player's character ICly or OOCly. OOCly I think it'd be relatively easy for me to say, "Hey man, that isn't you - it's your character", and then compartmentalize those feelings IF they were to occur.

On the other hand, it could just be that my character feels everyone that's been fucked over so far deserved it. If our character can justify their actions does it make us feel better OOCly? I think it does - at least for me.

I don't mean to necro an old post. I saw this on the @who list and read through everything. I've had some feelings as of late with really no where to put them, so if folks don't mind, I'm going to dump them here.

While I haven't been playing Sindome long (I played previously several years ago and definitely didn't "get" the game, so I barely count it), I've been roleplaying off and on for twenty years and primarily have played more violent/political intrigue games, such as Vampire: the Masquerade and other WoD. It's been so long that I have probably forgotten how many lives my characters have ruined or how many times my characters have been metaphorically and physically destroyed.

The kicker is that while all that happened IC, you would think I would feel guilty. What I feel guilty about is that I don't feel guilty.

I'm a writer. I came to Sindome to help inspire me to work on a cyberpunk novel I was writing. I am definitely not writing that novel and spending every free minute playing this game, which has been more fun than I can express. I subscribe to Stephen King's "kill your darlings," so I apply it IC. If it makes sense for the character and the story, then it happens. And I love my characters; they are my little bb's, and sure, it can get upsetting and/or disappointing when things go tits up, but at the end of the day, I still feel so separated from the events that it doesn't take me long to climb whatever mountain my character needs to climb.

As a result, sometimes I feel kinda heartless. I rarely have an emotional response to a lot of things that happen IC and bleed is something I rarely deal with. Part of me wants to say OOCly, "Hi. I'm really a loving and caring person, please don't take it personally," which I don't because I think it breaks immersion. In the rare occasion I do feel some sort of response, I pull away for a day or two, refresh and jump back in with a "NBD" attitude.

So I feel guilty about that fairly constantly, but it's something I strive to deal with. Anyway, thanks for reading. :)

I talk to my therapist about events in Sindome.

I hope that doesn't break the OOC discussion rule, but it helps me greatly.

Dove I think we're twins :)

I came from VtM as well, I think a lot of people in SD would enjoy it's emphasis on political dealings, intrigue, backstabbing, all of it. God I miss VtM.

I also came here as an aspiring writer. I think RP'ing here actually saps that from me, takes the time and creative energy out of me, I honestly think if I ever want to finish my novel I'd have to quit playing again, so it's hard.

ynk, I think SD is my therapy sometimes.

I don't think I ever feel guilty, unless I feel I've somehow provided a really shallow or cheap experience to someone, which has happened, usually by accident or because of factors outside my control, or because time was short, or because I was just not in my groove RP-wise. I think as long as you gave a plot or a scene or a murder your best energy, or what you felt it 'deserved (whatever that means to you), no one should have bad OOC feelings.

Saw this on the @who list, and it seemed appropriate. Not really sure if it is the same thing, but it feels like guilt to an extent. I beat myself up so much over IC things, and take them as personal failings OOCly. Like, seeing SIC go by with all these keys and such, and there's something inside me that says, "You must be bad at this game, because you're always alone." It's kind of like guilt over being bad at all the things other players seem good at. Learning to keep IC stuff from impacting me OOCly has always been a real struggle, and vice versa. Hoping to master it one of these days.

Sometimes I worry that my OOC personality type really isn't a good fit for Sindome. Just always remember there are other ways to contribute to the game's rich atmosphere via fun/quirky interactions and other things. These help people enjoy the game in a different sort of way I think, akin to some comedy relief in a normally tense novel or film, even though Sindome is a competitive game at its core. 😊

I think it really is about keeping things in perspective! It can be really hard to judge your own success. At the end of the day I like to think if I'm doing my best to push RP, I'm doing well. I won't always be great at it and sometimes I do just take time to hang back and enjoy observing others because I need that break. 'Success' is kind of fuzzy! I like Sindome because it's so open ended, but does get easy to get down on yourself because the traditional game success markers aren't there. Three grind levels then a boss, kind of thing. Stats and skills mean something, but they're not everything. RP means something but there's still levels and other tangible markers of success.

Maybe you're the guy that's loud and drives rp that way. Maybe you've got a really cool niche rp going on with just a few characters. Maybe it's just a bit of a lull and you're using that time to craft some personal story that might benefit you later. That's all awesome. Maybe you're feeling stuck and need to shake it up! I think when we try to measure ourselves against other players, we get funny ideas about our own success. We all have different playstyles which makes the game cool.

It really sucks when people tell you that “badthing u did” is the reason they don’t play or stopped playing for months. I can’t help but feel guilty in these situations. I wish people didn’t equate success in this game to chyen, but they do, and when they lose they quit.

Being guilted like this isn’t a one time occurrence for me, and if it’s happened to me it’s probly happened to other people too.

Honestly that doesn't sound very mature from either side, kids ballpark talk.

That being said, manage your own guilt. Sometimes people do go too far, while others times people might overreact.

You can't 'win' at SD per se, so 'rolling with the punches' is a big part of the game.

It hurts to give someone a challenge and see them completely collapse from it. I had someone leave due to a thing I did, and I'm so happy to see them back after so long.
Did you just come on a thread titled “feeling guilty oocly” to say manage your own guilt? Lol, stellar.

@Leech I could sass you, but I am going to dismiss your childish attitude.

What I am saying is merely reiterate that one can only self manage guilt, reflect if the feelings are warranted or not and self-correct if necessary. Even if they try nobody can really 'guilt trip' you into anything, at the end of the day you control how you feel.

@GhostInTheMachine we're all adults here. We all know how to manage our feelings and our guilt. This thread, as Slither said, is for people to post if they feel guilty about those things. I didn't post here so I could be told to do things I already do.

Is this going to affect my life or RP? No. Did I want to vent about my experiences without being chastised? Yes.

What I am saying is merely reiterate that one can only self manage guilt, reflect if the feelings are warranted or not and self-correct if necessary. Even if they try nobody can really 'guilt trip' you into anything, at the end of the day you control how you feel.

Not to detour too severely, but there is quite a wealth of experimental evidence to show that the opposite is true, that people are almost never able to use internal mechanisms to self-correct or resist expected outcomes when social conformity or obedience to authority are concerned. Often regardless of how guilty they may feel or how upset they are. This was one conclusion of perhaps the most famous psychological experiment in history:

In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40) of experiment participants administered the experiment's final massive 450-volt shock, and all administered shocks of at least 300 volts.

Subjects were uncomfortable doing so, and displayed varying degrees of tension and stress. These signs included sweating, trembling, stuttering, biting their lips, groaning, and digging their fingernails into their skin, and some were even having nervous laughing fits or seizures. Every participant paused the experiment at least once to question it. Most continued after being assured by the experimenter.

Like Asch's conformity experiments which demonstrated that a person would disregard their own objective observation in favor of siding with the group, Milgram showed that, far from being moral arbiters of their own responsibility and masters of our feelings, people were in fact completely unable to adjust or manage their actions when subjected to authority or expectations, even when those actions caused them severe stress or guilt.

More relevantly to the topic at hand, in variations of the experiment where the subject's resistance was validated by just one other person, the results were far less conclusive.

When asked about the scenario outside of the context of the experiment, no one believed they would continue against their own judgement\; within the context, all subjects did.

Conformity and authority are powerful things. I wouldn't be too quick to suggest everyone must rely on no one but themselves to manage their emotional state.

This is without question one of the most famous studies often quoted in introductory psychology classes and pop psychology articles, but I don't think it's too relevant here, especially considering it's nearly five decades old, conducted under completely different culture. As a rule of thumb, even in undergraduate psychology you really aren't supposed to quote anything older than two decades, and that's being extremely generous.

At the end of the day, this is a bleed issue. And everybody has their own way of working through it, like a fingerprint.

I think it is important to give people a space to discuss and externalize their feelings on bleed, feeling guilty, etc. I am not sure I would characterize some of the experiences here as bleed explicitly. At least not character to player bleed. Originally, I had posted this because, I, Slither, felt bad, not my character, for playing to the theme and to the character.

However, that's an interesting debate to have on if bleed goes both ways.

Either way, I'm glad this topic is still helpful to folx years later, and would implore everyone to continue to look at each others responses with best intentions in mind. We all have different experiences and ways of dealing with conflict-- that is understandable and expected!