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Some General Automotive Ideas
Creating more cool automobiles megathread

First off this will be slightly long, I have trimmed fluff and reasoning and mechanics explanations beyond what's needed to really convey the point. I asked xooc what the best way to post this would be and they said a monolith, so here we go. Each of these is an idea that kind of builds off each other in some ways but also doesn't in others.

I'm of the mindset of a couple things regarding vehicles, as they have always been one of my favorite systems to interact with.

First, at current, car parts behave like clothing when outside of the vehicle they are installed, but simply put, bomboof away after the install, with no real external effect beyond the line if you look at them "X part is slightly damaged." This is weird. And essentially once they are installed on the chassis you end up with a really hard to understand thing.

This should change and I'd propose something me and Johnny were talking about in xooc the other day. Which is to make them like garments/clothing for the car. So while car descriptions will get longer. You could eventually build up the system to be akin to tailoring for custom parts with some coding effort.

.

Second, At current parts themselves have very weird descriptions when outside the car... Basically being described as a tangible &rpgthing. And that's it. An effort should be put on Fix-It to provide descriptions for all of these parts.

Third, at current part variety is very good. However I'd like to see a few things done to aid in making vehicles more interesting in a long term play sense. All of these could be defined under maintenance. Right now, owning a car is relatively easy so long as you only allow skilled users to use it. Essentially if it never crashes or someone doesn't target it directly, that vehicle is good for eternity... I'd like to see maintenance need to be a thing. And proper storage, good driving skill, etc, aid in preventing maintenance for as long as possible.

Four, potentially very long long term, implement the sticker system(not STICKERS) onto the parts in question, allowing them to get things like gunshot holes, blood spatters, paint runs from acid rain and et cetera. So that as your vehicle degrades and gets damaged over time, it becomes a sloppy wreck of a car, but one that a mechanic is needed to fix. Possibly implement car washes to the topside gas stations and things that function for low level, preventative maintenance.

I think these changes would be amazing and further iterate on one of the systems that is implemented in a slightly janky way right now.

And if done right, opens up an iterative path to how to implement rigging at all levels of play as well.

So with 3rd and 4th, you want to essentially nerf cars, by adding to the very expensive thing, additional upkeep cost. Why? What good will that add to the game, besides even fewer people being able to afford rides?
You already can fuck up someone else rides, though it requires XHELP do execute and also to make sure that the damage caused is on par with the effort put in.

And even the cheapest bikes are in 40k+ range, this means weeks of making the limit and spending it on literally nothing else. This is not cheap by any stretch of IC imagination for most players.

I also doubt that making rides more expensive to operate will bring more work for mechanics, as then instead of getting your own ride, why not just buy on across multiple players just for the sake of, say, updating clones. Where otherwise people may not find it worth it, and just get their own wheels instead. So rather than nerfing the rides to bring more RP for mechanics, give them ability to tweak and tune rides, giving temporary buffs. A positive change, where people who want can pimp their rides, without making them even more expensive to own.

To clarify the maintenance I'm talking about would be on the scale of weeks and months, not every other day. Or even every week, unless you're like the worlds most active taxi driver. And even then...

To set some things that feel a bit sane to me...

At 100 trips along the expressways, I'd say you'd probably need to get maintenance or your car would stall and you'd run higher risk of failing rolls. This is the equivelent of an oil change and tire/break rotation.

At 200 trips without maintenance you'd run the risk of parts legit breaking on you suddenly... This is the equivelent of ignoring those things and having your breaklines clog on the expressway at 3AM.

That's the kind of glacially slow maintenance for shit that matters I'm talking about... But assuming it's staggered out a bit, it does mean a trickling flow of work for mechanics.

And as for the cosmetic stuff... As someone who grew up around tuner and street racing culture, those people basically wash their cars every few days if not every day, to keep them in peak good looks. I'd say theme-wise for a corpie, keeping their ride not looking like a pile of shit, would be a good thing for the status quo enforcement stuff, but that there should be automatic systems for that. A 300-500 chy carwash basically.

But this is of course, my massively spitballed assumptions on a sane method of implementation for it.

As far as what good it does. There's an archetype that sees very little work at current. And it needs more of it. Because to be honest, DECKERS see more work than mechanics do, and the only people who see less, are typically riggers.

+1

Marleen, I would like to address a couple of things you said. the 'limit' is soft to begin with, and there are additional hustles beyond that. Yes, 40k is expensive, but not really prohibitively.

If maintenance systems were implemented, I wouldn't mind seeing the cost of some vehicles halved though, as their cost may be so high because it's a one time thing.

"why not just buy on across multiple players just for the sake of, say, updating clones."

Why not? This seems perfectly valid in the mix. I also feel like you may be forgetting that corpie characters exist with that statement as well.

No one is denying that mechanics could use a boost, we had multiple topics about it. But the disagreement is with doing so by making rides more annoying/expensive to have. Instead, mechanics could make their RP and flash of those who want the rides pimped and shiny, rather than just making them more of a chore/flash sink.

And yep, ride-sharing is a thing, and if rides are even pricier than they are now, you will see more of it. And that will result in LESS mechanic RP, not more, as there will be fewer rides out there.

Honestly, even just having Taxi's and service vehicles like van's and ambulances need repairing every so often would add more RP and work for mechanics.

So no, ride sharing wouldn't cause that... Because well, any increase at this point in work being driven to the mechanics there are is basically an increase from next to nothing or maybe a job every two weeks.

To expand on my previous post: maintenance will create RP of "Eh, fuck I need to find a mechanic... again.". Hardly awe-inspiring, especially if you use your ride often, And after few times will devolve into "ride in, quick chat, fix my ride, pay, get lost". As do most chores.

But if you turn it into positive stuff, tweaking engine to burn less fuel, rotating tires to make it go fast, stuff like that, then you can also open more edge above other players simple because you went and RPed with a mechanic to get your ride pimped. Maybe even allow for some dangerous modding, like adding a lot more speed, but at an increased chance of crashing. Optional upgrades and mods like that, which may then require maintenance.

Then you will also have a lot more options when it comes to stuff like racing and maybe will make that a thing again. Will you dare to push it with all the risky bike mods to win the prize, or will you try to win on the sheer power of skill? And then those people take risks, which sometimes lead to crashes, leading to RP. And the flash to cover those repairs/mods comes from PVP in form of racing.

Any system reliant on other players for operation will eventually fail. I'd sort of contest that 'mechanic' is really an actual archetype so much as a variant of a larger skills archetype, but in the (common) event of no niche skillset PCs being available, vehicles cease to function.

Or maintenance could be automated much like medical services are, but all that is happening at that stage is making vehicle continuing costs (which is already a serious chunk of flash if you use them regularly) increase; in a system that most players can barely afford to begin with, as evidenced by the relative scarcity of active player owned vehicles.

You got a point there 0x1mm, on official archetypes you won't find a car mechanic, what you will find is tech guru: https://www.sindome.org/archetypes/tech-guru/

Which is much broader archetype than just rides, and is open to quite few other RP avenues too.

Sorry, gear head: https://www.sindome.org/archetypes/gear-head/

Which with secure tech and the other skills can do more than just cars.

I suppose why I have been lukewarm on these and the previous vehicle-related posts made is they have all struck me as slightly zero-sum concepts: Resources are removed from the player-base as a whole, and transferred to the auto tech/thief.

My tendency is to view good expansion of systems as something that adds value, rather than just removing or redistributing it. Do forced upkeep costs and role-play add to the gross enjoyment of the game? I'm not exactly charged at the idea of oil-change RP.

Personally what I would prefer to see would be ideas with new desirable elements, and added value in the system, rather than just making the existing system worse to financially buoy a niche sub-archetype. If you have to force players to use or do something, it's probably not fun in it's own right.

Well the first two were basically ways to add those cool new things. And improve on existing ones.

But I can see your point. I just figured the idea of at very least cosmetic degradation to be totally within the theme of the game. But I guess in some places theme bows to design. with vehicles it does seem to be a lot of places though.

Beyond that, have a few more ideas.

First idea that came to me as I was trying to get to sleep.

Tweak vehicles to have an interior color scheme and an exterior color scheme, maybe even allowing a mechanic to submit a redec request for the interior desc of the vehicle itself.

Maybe I want to run a ripper doc wagon, out of a van disguised as a "Poultry salesman". That's fairly cyberpunk as fuck. Plenty of other applications for being able to redec your interiors.

Second idea is, change motorcycles ability to dodge traffic into a toggled movement mode, using a verb like drive dangerously DIR-STREAM, and give it to every vehicle, with graded skill checks for size. Currently this movement mode overvalues motorcycles to a high degree for the AVERAGE single user, and you might see people go beyond low tier motorcycles to multiseater cars more often if you didn't remove the ability to move through traffic at an insane rate, but instead diluted it a little bit by gating it behind skill and time investment for every vehicle. A max UE wheelman might be able to do the same thing in a van in traffic at slower speeds as a cricket would at high speeds.

Third idea, going on track of new desirable elements from 0x1mm. Allow a mechanic to provide some form of interim buffs akin to longer form drugs for cars and bikes. Not terribly long lasting, something like a day to a week depending on mechanics skill, but maybe they can make that bike easier to get through traffic, by balancing the transmission better. Or reducing load on the engine. What have you. A good system to have might be if it effects one part it must effect another part negatively.

So say you boost the engine for more speed, you'd have the mechanic either at random, or if skilled enough, pick what part group that the engines drawing power from for that extra speed. Could be that you're drawing from the tires and you've got lower traction and you'll slide around on corners easier, could be that you've got it drawing from the security system making it easier to steal.

And so on.

Final idea... Again working on making the archetye of wheelman and mechanic a little more viable... This one is a bit FOIC, but add artistry onto the page for gear head, and put it in place of rigging if you have to replace something. There's reasons for this. Trust me on that. But Artistry comes in big in certain parts of both IRL and Sindome gearheadry.

Fucking hate how broad it is as a skill though... Fuck.

I have a feeling that most of these ideas were suggested in a previous thread and already discussed
It probably has been discussed but I wanna see a giant useless wing on your mono and NOS stickers covering your bullet holes +1
I still disagree with putting motorcycle traffic weaving on a toggle. You can do a lot of things with anything that is not a bike, but bikes are only for transportation. They also have numerous disadvantages and if you were to make them worse somehow they might as well be considered ruined.
A number of these ideas have been posted and discussed in a previous thread. I do wish we had just added onto that one. For instance, Vera was talking about making all cars able to dodge traffic depending on vehicle class + driving skill and I was talking about long term buffs being applied to vehicles by getting maintenance.

I think the thread in question is this one:

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/wheels-need-some-love-1785/

I'm just going to repost something I wrote in that thread, these were ideas for giving mechanics more stuff to do:

You know. What about anything like this:

1. Cars and bikes get dirty as they're driven and require a mechanic to clean. There's an automated car wash at the shop but PC mechanics are allowed to do it for cheaper.

2. Having your car tuned improves performance and ethicol mileage commensurate with the mechanic's skill, but the effect fades over time, encouraging repeat maintenance.

3. The aforementioned ideas about different types of parts, more like chrome, where they produce specific effects.

Even just having car washes would force corporate players to use mechanics and the whole tuning thing could save people money on ethicol and improve the car's general stats for a time, which could be handy for a racing subculture. Also, the nos idea.

Just waking up again:

Yeah, but ultimately that thread like many others devolved into a shit show.

So I decided to take a lot of those ideas discussed and expand them or otherwise make them into fuller things, and create a monolithic thread with them for a lot of these ideas. Given that I didn't want to sort through 300 posts worth of threads to give credit, thank you for tracking things down here.

I do want to say though, regarding the tuning/vehicle drugs idea, one thing that cropped up in my head as I wake up and reread this thread, is that vehicle parts essentially already do this in a way. And it's possible that these things will need a rework eventually...

As it is, I'd love to see vehicle tuning culture be a bit more of a thing in game... As looking at it now, I can Eval about 10 cars walking down the street and pretty much maybe two will have upgraded parts, and if they do it's normally one specific part. Of twenty maybe four to six. And so on. With maybe every 10 upgrades being something other than one specific part.

It's kinda silly. Especially on Red, Where things are a bit ramshackle to have every car be essentially stock...

Hell, I'd love to have a distinguishing between stock that come with the car and "basic parts." that a mechanic could tell the differences on.

And as for some of the other reply's.

@varolokkur

This is somewhat true and somewhat untrue, there's a lot of advantages to a motorcycle, from parts and upgrades being cheaper, to the thing just being cheaper overall, besides that, having that movement system be locked down into a single type of vehicle over tunes motorcycles for movement, when you could give them numerous other advantages. One potential advantage that may or may not be in the game, is for drive by's. I firmly think that you should be able to attack off of a motorcycle, if not already able too.

In fact balancewise, I think Motorcycles should have a lot more mobility than cars. However I think that the ability to ghost through traffic should have a way to be countered by a skilled driver... Diluting the ability to dodge traffic to everyone, or possibly even just allowing very skilled drivers to, at the risk of crashing duck traffic as well is a good idea. And is a net positive because it removes a massive gimmie, makes it a conscious choice, and emphasizes just how crowded the roadways are... Ducking traffic in RL is one of the most difficult things you can do on a bike, and is fraught with danger. To the point where 95% of states don't allow you to lane split for long periods of time(Speaking as someone who comes from one of the 5% who do.)

That all being said, I do think I'll walk it back a bit... Possibly keep it as an automatic, or having a soft lock on it, imposing a more difficult movement skill check on movement, with a warning that "You can keep going, and push through traffic but you may cause an accident during rush hour." If you do decide to push through traffic on the express. Because even when you move through traffic IRL, it's not generally a steady stable forward motion. That's incredibly risky, so you normally clear a section of cars, stop, look around, chart a path and continue on... You're able to keep moving faster than the cars who HAVE to wait in traffic with their larger frames, but implemented like this you also have the conscious decision and risk of being side swiped like IRL but still the ability to travel and the inconvenience of rush hour emphasized.

@Grizzly

I fucking love that, I want to be able to put unicorn stickers over my bullet holes.

I still want a big UMC style Mix race. I want futuristic biker gangs! Haha.
I agree! I want that shit SO fucking bad.
What -is- 100% clear and seems generally agreed upon is mechanics (auto and aero) need more in game to do with their skill. The prime causes of this can be broken in my opinion be broken into two categories:

1) Only a small subset of the games players actually own vehicles.

2) Even fewer actually have their vehicles; a) damaged or b) upgraded.

These two factors combined leave mechanics who come into the game hoping to run bustling stores and experience a lot of rp in their chosen field rather underwhelmed which is naturally disappointing for those players. By breaking the problem down into two clear categories we can come up with two general categories of solutions and use those to inform our decisions. These solutions will likely fall into:

1) Make vehicles more accessible.

2) Create more reasons for vehicles to a) break or be b) upgraded.

Category 1 speaks for itself in why it would be an effective solution. More vehicles on the road means more work for mechanics to do as the odds of a vehicle breaking or needing an upgrade increase. Players who put the graft in to purchase vehicles when the prices were higher might be a little upset at seeing their work devalued but I believe that the gain from doing this would be greater than the loss. Waiting at the levs is poor "rp" all round anyway.

I've noticed a lot of people have a knee-jerk negative reaction to solutions to this problem that fall under category 2a and I understand why, vehicles are expensive and so naturally people are wary of having their (characters) hard work blown by damage later done to the vehicle. I believe this could be overcome by first applying a solution in category 1. If the vehicle costs less (or are otherwise more easily accessed) in the first place people will be less concerned about having their vehicle damaged later on.

Solutions under 2a category 2 I feel will hold the most weight when it comes to creating more rp for mechanics as a breakage on your vehicle is something that cannot be ignored. Like going to a medic when you are injured it is not really optional and creates rp for the medic (or mechanic in this case) whilst restoring full functionality of your character (vehicle). Tangible symptoms for vehicle damage like random stalling or eventually a breakdown if damage is ignored for long enough (like a slower version of bleeding on a character) will create rp for both the driver -and- the mechanic which I don't think the value of can be overlooked. It shouldn't be too easy for your car to break down all the way because of the effort involved in earning a vehicle, but I definitely feel it should be happening more than it is.

Solutions in 2b are in my opinion not as likely to bring mechanics or vehicle drivers rp as solutions under 2a as upgrades don't really add functionality or rp to the game beyond their instillation. Upgrades already exist and the vehicle will only go a bit faster as result of the rather expensive upgrades. Folks are content to use their car at its base speed in the same way many players are content to use their characters without buffing via drugs or even food in some cases. I'm not writing 2b solutions off as a way to increase the amount of rp mechanics get, but I think upgrades need to do more than just increase the speed of a vehicle or increase efficiency to really gain traction (pardon the pun) as a solution.

If you've read this far in my post thank you, you're a hero and the kind of person we need on this forum, someone who seeks first to understand before throwing critique at a player and their ideas. I hope this post has been a useful read for you in spite of the fact it doesn't provide any specific solutions and instead merely aims to break down the problems at hand into more bite size chunks. For a final clarification I believe priority to solution making more rp for mechanics should go; make vehicles more accessible -> Vehicles should break more and breakages should be more tangible -> upgrades to vehicles that actually add to rp once installed.

The price of vehicles are high and vehicles aren't inaccessible because they provide pretty big advantages. If you want to make them more accessible than they are right now then it'd be a major change and I believe, a bad change. We already have public transport and if you made vehicles easier to obtain it'd ruin the point of them and they'd need a lot of their features removed.
aren't accessible easier*
I like the grind toward getting a vehicle, personally. It's something I've gone through every character. The feeling of relief when you finally do get one is immense and the annoyance of the levs is there to push people to buy them.

As far making them cost more to own already, no thanks. People already have to pay for ethicol in their upkeep and no one wants even more on top of that.

I will agree, creating a venue for more customization would be nice, but that would require more chassis. Right now we have tiny blob, small blob, medium blob, dune buggy, moon buggy, MUSCLE CAR, and GODDAMN FERRARI. There's a couple other vehicles that've yet to hit the market that I think would also fill some of this niche, but otherwise you're putting lipstick on a pig throwing a spoiler on a Mono.

I have to add that the price cost for obtaining/maintaining a vehicle isn't something I'm for except for stuff like dust for social appearances/temp performance boosts suggested in the previous thread by Crook instead of parts breaking down and cars getting worse with use.
changing the price cost for obtaining/maintaining**

excuse the posts hard on phone

Who cares if it is lipstick on a pig? It is the rule of cool.
@HolyChrome I feel like pimping up a shitty ride so you spend more on modding it than the car is worth is mix as fuck, personally.
Is this cool, Grizzly?!

IS THIS COOL?!

It is cool

To someone.

...Okay points to Wonderland for a pimped out shitass ride as ganger status symbol.

But I'd still like more "frames" for vehicles that aren't "bubble on wheels".

I can already see people are misinterpreting why I suggested cars be made more accessible. It isn't so players can skip the grind and get cars effort free, that would detract from rp. It iso more cars are out there on the roads actually breaking down and providing rp for mechanics and their players. It is also to offset the costs of cars breaking down more often if that were implemented which again provides more rp even if it does cost chyen should a player be careless enough or unfortunate enough to get their vehicle damaged. There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere where folks still have to put effort into buying their vehicle but there are enough on the road actually breaking down for mechanics to be kept busy with mechanic rp.
I think the power of having a vehicle might be extremely underestimated, Mong.

I'd love a lot more frames for them.

Like especially some mid end tuner style cars, to contrast the bubble Sedan's that you see basically.

There is a subset of archetypes (techies, mechanics, doctors, and to an extent deckers) that attract players with a certain attitude - namely that they should be able to take on a passive role that will feed them chores and RP.

I think a lot of ideas that have been presented on this topic either

1) Devalue the investments of active, successful characters by introducing risks or upkeep costs to vehicles which are already some of the most expensive things in the game

2) Create an additional reliance on player characters in service roles without those characters having done anything to earn it

#2 in particular can be really irritating. Characters in these passive roles frequently get pulled into the network of one faction or another and can become unusable to everyone else. Anyone who's had to wait for an NPC cyberdoc because the two PC docs in their sector are either untrustworthy or inactive knows that this is less than ideal.

More interesting ideas I think would focus on creating longer-term aspirations for these characters and ways for them to use their skills that go beyond creating maintenance chores. Collecting the parts to build stuff from the ground up, more meaningful interactions with vehicles that would make things like aluminum panels or bulletproof windows attractive, that kinda thing.

I would really love to see PC's create street racing gangs much in the same way we have gangs in the broader sense.
I suspect if you averaged the total daily travel of every active player, it would approach some approximation of 'Pad -- Nearest Bar -- Pad'. I'm not really sure I would say vehicles are underrated in utility, so much as the average player would not see significant utility in them, otherwise vehicle ownership would be higher.

Vehicles are extremely useful for a subset of players, and I would actually argue the system is somewhat disproportionately deep compared to how small that group is. Relative apparent utility to cost is, almost by definition, low, because ownership is low. Unless there is some other mechanism artificially restricting or disincentivizing vehicle ownership, 'more expensive = fewer vehicles' is a pretty good rule of thumb.

I'm not arguing for changes in their cost, I'm just not surprised more players don't have them, or that there is a viable secondary services and goods market for them.

...or that there is not a viable secondary services and goods market for them, excuse me.
I don't know that it is a complete answer, but I suggest that people who want to see more vehicles and more attention paid to them create some RP around them and get others involved in it. I think the staff has mentioned that they take special interest in parts of the game that get the most use by the players. We all know that collectively we're not amazing at spending our chyen effectively all the time. Maybe we could spend some of that on creating RP around vehicles?

Just some thoughts, feel free to ignore them.

People street race all the time, it's fun RP but it isn't the most interesting thing mechanically.

It should be easier to crash and crashes should hurt more, especially if you're on a motorcycle without a helmet or armor. That's one place where maintenance makes sense - a player taking on a risky behavior is doing so with the understanding it might go poorly vs a player just getting passively taxed for being successful.

"There is a subset of archetypes (techies, mechanics, doctors, and to an extent deckers) that attract players with a certain attitude - namely that they should be able to take on a passive role that will feed them chores and RP."

I think this is a flawed and toxic presumption.

I don't understand what's wrong with wanting more systems in place for given archetypes to want to interact with, to leverage against other PCs for chyen / data / interaction if nothing else.

Player shortages in certain roles is a different topic IMO. People don't play archetypes because an archetype isn't attractive to them for whatever reasons. I think the biggest reason, flexing vet squad muscles of years of reading forum complaints, is lack of coded support or having interesting things to do. It's hard to maintain implementing such things for these archetypes is a bad idea while also explaining....it would be bad to do so because there aren't enough of them to go around.

Not being a murderhobo ganger does not equal passive. Weak deckers and mechanics and whatever all have chyen and contacts, they stack bodies. People aren't asking for lame SHI-like chores.

There is no role that sits around and gets fed RP. Any player trying that route will have a lame time. Maybe give people a little more credit.

+1 to Jameson.
See Jameson, there you go making assumptions about me again. I played a doctor for over a year and didn't fight anyone, and I've never been a murderhobo. I think that's kind of an insulting accusation to throw at me and it's certainly unconstructive.
Vera you took that way too personally, he wasn't aiming that comment at you. He was stating factually, that not being a combat character, doesn't make you passive.
He was replying directly to me.
@Vera

I didn't see anything like that in what Jameson wrote. You might be reading in a bit?

This is like, exactly the kind of thing we all need to step back from, together. With the power of friendship.

Anyway back on track...

Do you guys think that the ability to make custom parts fabricated, and have a ride that really kind of resembles how YOU want it to look, be enough of an incentive for some players to actually start saving for a ride and the customization? Or would the fact that it's not on their character at all times as an identifying aspect possibly make the psychology of it lean towards it not having any effect?

I really like the idea of a tailoring system for parts.

No I kinda wanna sit on it because it's a problem. I'm being told that I apparently think only characters who are running around killing people are successful or deserve RP.

What I was obviously saying was that the passive maintenance chores that have been suggested are not good suggestions compared to active things to work toward. Somehow that means I'm being toxic?

Do you guys think that the ability to make custom parts fabricated, and have a ride that really kind of resembles how YOU want it to look, be enough of an incentive for some players to actually start saving for a ride and the customization?

One of the challenges here is that vehicles are not really like the PC avatar, people are not really actively looking at them for anything other than getting their plate numbers and the colour for the most part; and when a player is in their vehicle, they are anonymized to varying degrees, so the social cachet of a tricked-out vehicle is sort of low.

If you could enhance or modify the vehicle's shortdesc/identifier it would probably greatly increase the cosmetic cachet, but it would also decrease the anonymization which might discourage it too.

It's an interesting problem. What people ought to 'want', both in an OOC and IC sense, are not always aligned, and vehicles I think fall into this ambiguous area of what utility they have OOC is not really commensurate to the utility and purpose they might IC.

It's not the suggestion that's toxic, it's exactly this tone and style that you're writing in right now... At this point the best thing I can tell you is to take a deep breath, walk away. The response that you're having right now is only reinforcing the point that's been made in the past few days to you.

If your response to someone telling you that you're acting elitist, is to essentially double down, and then you're bothered by the responses you get? Then respectfully perhaps it's time for a different response?

Nobody should be calling each other toxic. Everyone put your kid gloves on! And then use them with each other.
I'm really not sure why players are so adverse to adding a little bit of risk to owning a vehicle. Owning almost anything else in the game carries risk of loss. A player buying a fancy suit of xo3 usually understands that when they buy that fancy suit of xo3 there is a very real risk of them being killed/ko'd with it on and losing that item of gear they bought. Furthermore they then have to replace the armor which again costs a ridiculous amount. When that happens players don't (to my knowledge) OOCly complain they are being taxed for being successful. Vehicles don't necessarily cost as much and yet presently seem to exist in a bubble where nobody wants them to come to harm even if repairs would be substantially less than say, replacing xo3 AND provide rp to a player (or at the very least an npcs because hey, npc mechanics exist).
If you think there aren't any risks to owning a vehicle then I honestly don't know what to say to that, man. I just would advise taking a look around IC.

I like the idea of custom car mods.

Thank you for that intelligent response though, 0x1mm. I really like the consideration you put into it...

Hmmm... I did consider the anonymity factors in terms of the way customization might work...

It's interesting to think about though... As right now, every vehicle is essentially exactly the same on first glance, meaning that you really need to scrutinize it to see if perse, it's got a racing engine in it.

That's something that kind of fascinates me, because for a motorcycle especially chopper culture is huge, and I don't see that dying down... And wicked cool designs are a staple of that kind of culture.

Hell I'd love for each gang in the mix to have a really cool custom tailored bike out there somewhere that a player mech might make. Like, I'm thinking like twisted heavy angled scooped forks for one of them, I have like this perfect image of a really serpentine chopper that I almost want to write.

For cosmetic alterations, shortdesc and name are the two things that come to mind that would really have some kind of universal social cachet.

For utility, there's several systems available in certain vehicles that...probably a lot of players would be interested in, but they're very powerful. Like meta-warping powerful, so there may not be any interest in democratization there.

Something to consider might be vehicle improvements that would cater to the current market of vehicle owners, that themselves require upkeep.

So a base Duo doesn't require routine maintenance, but that silent-running engine and low-impact tyres that necessitate a perception check to notice driving by, that might be something certain people would be willing to pay additional on-going costs for. A sort of opt-in for additional cost for additional benefit.

Oooh I LIKE THAT!

Want a fucking stealth car? A massive combat fuck you tank?

That;s gonna be expensive to maintain. And gives factions a good reason to recruit a mechanic as well.

Vera,

I was so sad when you left the game and really happy when you came back because your RP is great, in the bits of it I've been able to observe/engage with. I think you are absolutely a net positive to the -game-.

But you are absolutely toxic, yes. Every thread you touch turns to mix puddle water the minute you enter it, it's...kind of the what the word is for, in communities.

Elitism, tonal bullying, hyperbolic flourishes that then backpedal into gaslighting others so that you can frame it as others being the unreasonable ones, and essentially a constant implication (is it really even an implication at this point?) condescending browbeating about how the game should be played to be a 'good' player, an 'active player', etc, and that everyone else deserves to fail, have a bad time, get mocked and isolated (usually from the usual suspects on OOC chat).

I don't know how many people need to tell you you're the problem (directly or subtly, because they don't want you to bully them or they don't want to get forum banned) before you think maybe you might be and it's not other people.

I'll take the forum ban for laying it out, idc anymore. The only worthwhile things that happen on the BGBB anymore are 1) Game Updates and 2) Character Artwork posts, and i don't need to post to enjoy them.

I agree with Jameson.

At a certain point, there's a metagame element that comes into play with figuring out a premium goods economy. There are many, many things in game which have like, theoretical IC social cachet because the game tells you they do, but they really don't in the player metagame itself. Luxury cars definitely fit into this category in my experience, since their utility is not vastly different.

What I mean about a metagame element is there is definitely a disproportionate ownership of vehicles in a certain set of player archetypes and, for lack of a better word, marketing to that group might not be the worst idea from the OOC and IC perspective.

Mechanically, one might imagine a single special upgrade slot on low-end vehicles, and perhaps two on higher-end vehicles, allowing for the installation of one of several types of bonus upgrades -- which themselves would have some generic status that would decrease over usage until the upgrade deactivated until it was replenished.

Just off the top of my head, special upgrades like stealth driving, expanded storage, and off-road suspension might appeal to some current owners, though I'm sure other options could be envisioned.

Now that that's out of the way...

The difference I'm talking about between passive RP and active RP is whether you are creating work for others or whether work is being created for you by game systems. Any role in the game has some element of the latter. If you're a doctor, people come in for treatment. If you work at a bar, people come in and order drinks. That's all fine and can open the door to plenty of RP, but it rarely creates RP.

Sitting around waiting for someone to crash so you can fix their car is passive. This is a fine thing to do and nobody should hassle you for it, but I think everyone would have more fun with suggestions that gave car owners and mechanics positive things to be proactive about, rather than negative things they need to do chores to fix.

Thus my vote for better positive incentives for souped up cars. If I could bash out a window and drag someone from their car or shoot them through the windshield, they'd probably be really excited to get bulletproof glass installed and they'd love their mechanic for doing it. If mechanics could fine-tune parts and if performance was more granular, that'd also be dandy. The stuff I was downvoting was like, automatic wear and tear just to force people to visit mechanics more often.

"It should be easier to crash and crashes should hurt more" -Vera.

This is effectively all I am trying to say when I say risk of breakages should be increased. I'm not trying to suggest cars should be spontaneously combusting or naturally degrading -unless- they have received damage that would cause degradation over time or a breakdown, like engine leaks or a busted up tire. Just an increase in risk. I definitely never meant to imply there was -no- risk to owning a vehicle as I am fully aware they can presently be crashed (albeit folks tend to drive too carefully for this), firebombed or stolen.

0x1mm has hit the nail on the head in terms of providing ideas that increase utility to vehicles. Aesthetic or slight performance tweaks aren't really enough to incentivise players to buy mods imo but making your favourite ride cross country capable or making it harder to notice from a distance, now that's what I call an upgrade.

That was very well put, and was a very respectful and well toned version of your prior posts.

The issue with, and why I didn't post that suggestion(Bashing through windows, or even player damage at all,) is because players like yourself have pointed out that allowing people to do that freely, is tantamount to the death of the vehicle system as a whole. Because some person would then just bash out every window in the mix in a cacophony of shattered glass and mixers rioting.

Positive incentives are a very good idea. I think there's got to be trade offs to them though.

Higher end systems relying on maintenance where lower end ones don't does please me as a -nice- middle ground. So that people who want to have the fastest and the best, and obviously thus have the capability of affording it, will gravitate towards towards those parts. Beyond that, it allows the people with less means to stay in the current status quo.

In a recent discussion about vehicle ideas, I argued that you should be able to do all kinds of damage to a vehicle that has player characters in it. It's empty parked and unattended vehicles that should require staff attention if you want to mess with them.

Also my tone hasn't really changed at all, I still don't understand what happened there but I don't think it's appropriate to keep hammering on the issue.

I agree with Vera that things that help players be proactive tend to be far more fun. Waiting around for people to need services is not as fun as selling people on why they need something now.
Alright I'm gonna do some writing analysis here and then get back onto topic.

So in one of your posts here in this thread, just before the drama started.

You said this, I'm gonna pull some relevant word choices here that demonstrate what people are talking about when they say you do this thing where you start out going hard, and then try and walk it back and call it exactly the same.

Just gonna go through and highlight with italics words that come off as confrontational in bold, or demeaning of groups of players in italics. with the reasoning in brackets.

""""

There is a subset of archetypes (techies, mechanics, doctors, and to an extent deckers) that attract players with a certain attitude(Sounds disparaging, like you're saying they are less than for this certain attitude) - namely that they should be able to(Directly saying something for someone) take on a passive role that will feed them chores and RP.(The use of the words chores and feed here indicate's a vocal disdain.)

I think a lot of ideas that have been presented on this topic either

1) Devalue the investments of active, successful characters by introducing risks or upkeep costs to vehicles which are already some of the most expensive things in the game

2) Create an additional reliance on player characters in service roles without those characters having done anything to earn it( a good way to avoid this sounding demeaning would be to couch it in a feeling descriptor. As to say that these people don't earn it, denies the reality of the RP they do. Saying you feel they haven't earned it however, means that it's not a statement of fact but instead what you are feeling.)

#2 in particular can be really irritating.(Explicit statement of irritation. Tends to draw peoples own feelings up.) Characters in these passive roles frequently get pulled into the network of one faction or another and can become unusable to everyone else. Anyone who's had to wait for an NPC cyberdoc because the two PC docs in their sector are either untrustworthy or inactive knows that this is less than ideal.(This whole statement also comes off as a bit elitist. It's essentially stating, "If you've experienced this, you'd know, " rather than explaining a way to solve the problem, it's not a constructive critique)

More interesting ideas I think would focus on creating longer-term aspirations for these characters and ways for them to use their skills that go beyond creating maintenance chores.(Once again chores. Bad word choice.) Collecting the parts to build stuff from the ground up, more meaningful interactions with vehicles that would make things like aluminum panels or bulletproof windows attractive, that kinda thing.

""""

Now I'm going to do the same to your recent post.

"""""

Now that that's out of the way...(Sarcastic quip can enflame tensions)

The difference I'm talking about between passive RP and active RP is whether you are creating work for others or whether work is being created for you by game systems. Any role in the game has some element of the latter. If you're a doctor, people come in for treatment. If you work at a bar, people come in and order drinks. That's all fine and can open the door to plenty of RP, but it rarely creates RP.

Sitting around waiting for someone to crash so you can fix their car is passive. This is a fine thing to do and nobody should hassle you for it, but I think everyone would have more fun with suggestions that gave car owners and mechanics positive things to be proactive about, rather than negative things they need to do chores to fix.

Thus my vote for better positive incentives for souped up cars. If I could bash out a window and drag someone from their car or shoot them through the windshield, they'd probably be really excited to get bulletproof glass installed and they'd love their mechanic for doing it. If mechanics could fine-tune parts and if performance was more granular, that'd also be dandy. The stuff I was downvoting was like, automatic wear and tear just to force people to visit mechanics more often.

""""

You had one line that felt like you were confronting people to me. And the rest was stated respectfully and in a non-confrontational way.

To call it the same done is, externally, disingenuous but if you cannot see the difference when contrasting these two posts, I may have some reading material to suggest for you, if I can find it again.

I'd boil it down to a simple maxim, but ultimately, introspection about this kinda stuff as you are actively writing, IS harder than looking at after the fact... Hindsight is 20:20 after all. And I'm the last person to claim any kind of moral or philosophical superiority in this type of stuff. It takes me an amount of effort and two or three rewrites of almost every sentence as I'm writing it. Careful consideration, and sometimes speaking the sentence out to try and get if it will be considered poorly.

That being said I'm going to return to the topic at hand as I've belabored politely explaining this point enough.

I think proactivity is a good thing. And that riding motorcycles in general should be harder than driving cars in general. I don't know if that's the case or not now though. So I could be bitching about nothing. I also think there should be a "smart car" equivalent that costs about as much as a lower tier bike... Maybe as much as the second most expensive one. Just to kind of... Get cars to have an equal low tier option to bikes. I know mono's exist, so maybe adjusting their price down a little bit might allow more of them to be seen? I dunno.

Wow it ate all my tags In favor of bolding everything I formatted that right too. I did a bb code check before I posted too.
Please, no. Stop the madness.

Many people have been guilty of saying wrong things, remember? Let's not patronize each other.

Can we not to turn this into some analytical breakdown of someone's responses?
I would counter that 'selling' someone on something once is great and all, but the problem then becomes an economy of perpetuity. There would be an initial rush for this great new thing, but once everyone had it, suddenly we're right back at where we are currently.

There -has- to be some sort of feedback loop that creates ongoing opportunity, rather than one-shot I've got part X now.

Having a boost applied to your ride by tuning is also well and good, but the problem I see in that is that vehicles just don't get used enough as is in a HUGE part of the game world. Not to say that this isn't a great idea, but I think there needs to be something that encourages players in both halves of the game to want to use their vehicles on a weekly basis.

My biggest wish would be to drastically reduce the cost of the aspects of vehicles that don't involve actual player interaction (Vehicle price and ethicol cost) while balancing out that abrupt reduction in price with an amount of upkeep that balances out the use of a vehicle. I can't get into specifics for obvious reasons, but please imagine what upkeep is currently, and then simply alter a portion of that to be now geared toward player interaction instead of command typing.

Y'all should just go back to RP and stop using OOC for this.
Just to flesh out some slottable upgrade ideas.

[Storage]

N internally accessible containers with N capacity.

[Stealth]

Perception check vs. driving skill to see driving emotes, increasing difficulty modifier with speed. No idling @LP.

[Range]

+N% ethicol efficiency and +N% ethicol capacity.

[Off-road]

Non-city driving equipped, refillable water storage.

[Camouflage]

Toggle between N exterior colours and plate number.

[Restraint]

Locking passenger restraints, or compartment.

Just to flesh out some slottable upgrade ideas.

[Storage]

N internally accessible containers with N capacity.

[Stealth]

Perception check vs. driving skill to see driving emotes, increasing difficulty modifier with speed. No idling @LP.

[Range]

+N% ethicol efficiency and +N% ethicol capacity.

[Off-road]

Non-city driving equipped, refillable water storage.

[Camouflage]

Toggle between N exterior colours and plate number.

[Restraint]

Locking passenger restraints, or compartment.

I've mentioned before that certain skills seem to give you entirely way too much bang for your buck in terms of investment to return.

I think it's entirely possible that the chances of crashing, or the chances of dinging up your ride might be too low, or the chance drops off too quickly from a UE investment if there is really this much of a lack of things for mechanics to do. And please remember, I've actually come down hard in the past on mechanics because I've seen some of the things that mechanics have and are able to do with time and investment.

As a motorcyclist in the OOC space, one of the most common things taught and reinforced to bikers is that at the end of the day, it simply doesn't matter how much of an amazing motorcyclist you are, crashes can and will happen simply because you cannot control the skill or lack thereof of other drivers on the road. Distracted drivers, screaming kids, people eating, high/drunk, etc.

To bring this into Withmorian context, I think that regardless of your personal ability not to crash your ride, there should be some element of your ride getting damaged from time to time. We talk about the city being enormously packed, and the streets being covered in cars, and yet nobody here ever gets their rides smashed into by a high ganger trying to parallel park their Holden? Nobody merges into your space when riding a bike in the tubes and completely ruins your day? These are just a few examples of things that are everyday occurrences for city dwellers- and not simply complaining on SIC about nightmarish traffic. Your 'skill' as a driver simply does not matter when you're on a packed expressway and someone doesn't look and merges into you. You, as the driver, never had a chance 'get out of the way' when it's bumper to bumper traffic.

Point being, even though it -feels- like this is a thread asking for free chyen for mechanic characters, I'm starting to come around to the points raised here and realize that cars as we have them in the game really are not realistic, and there probably should be some level of maintenance needed beyond ethicol costs. That's not how cars work OOCly, and it's probably not how cars should work ICly, either. Granted, I'm not saying that cars should simply blow up or fall apart, but some wear and tear over time should be happening just from living in the equivalent population density of a Favela.

Those are some neat ideas!
Driving definitely does give way too much bang for your buck.
Driving definitely does give way too much bang for your buck.
As a motorcyclist in the OOC space, one of the most common things taught and reinforced to bikers is that at the end of the day, it simply doesn't matter how much of an amazing motorcyclist you are, crashes can and will happen simply because you cannot control the skill or lack thereof of other drivers on the road. Distracted drivers, screaming kids, people eating, high/drunk, etc.

Big facts.

Also, xo1mm's add-on Ideas, can we configure our four passenger vehicles to set up like a Chex taxi if we want? I gotta get my private Uber or kidnapping on ty

Backseat cage?
tinted windows, pls

i would be all over any idea where skilled mechanics would be able to add value/features to vehicles like suggested above

Point being, even though it -feels- like this is a thread asking for free chyen for mechanic characters, I'm starting to come around to the points raised here and realize that cars as we have them in the game really are not realistic, and there probably should be some level of maintenance needed beyond ethicol costs. That's not how cars work OOCly, and it's probably not how cars should work ICly, either. Granted, I'm not saying that cars should simply blow up or fall apart, but some wear and tear over time should be happening just from living in the equivalent population density of a Favela.

I feel like this comes up a lot, but SD is nothing remotely like a simulator and realistic doesn't necessarily conflate to fun. I think it could reasonably be argued that there are enough perks to encourage higher UE investment in driving due to how front-loaded the system is, but ultimately degradation or traffic realism or whatever else can translate into a simple metric: Upkeep cost.

Vehicles are really the only system in the game with on-going upkeep that most players are chronically exposed to, and as those costs increase, ownership decreases. That's just simple economics. So if the goal is to encourage vehicle usage to foster a secondary market, just making vehicles worse and more expensive is not the means to go about it. Fun should trump realism at every turn.

There's already tinted windows <3
Are not enough perks, excuse me.
Oh and my 22's with $ spinners.

For real, you people know you would pimp your rides and supply these poor mechanics with work if cars were actually fun to customize

It's really difficult to argue against some of these points without going to detail, but I guess I can, but not really.

I don't think driving gives you 'too much bang for your buck' because if you try to do beyond what you're capable of you risk screwing yourself and having to possibly spend tens of thousands of chyen in repair costs, among other things.

Isn't is also already harder to drive in the Red District, or is that just the tubes? Not sure if it were Slither that said operating a vehicle is harder in certain parts of the city, or if that's going to be implemented in the future.

Basically, if people wanna drive slow as fuck to prevent damage to their vehicles then nothing is going to stop that.

It would be really cool to be able to blast Stalin Plains like that one car.
There are modifiers to driving conditions as I understand it, yes. I won't say anymore than that.
Fun is a poor argument, because in most places it's entirely subjective.

Getting shot in the face from snipers and seeing the scroll isn't fun, and yet it's a big part of the game.

I'm not arguing that vehicles should be hyper realistic, but if you're a skilled driver, have owned a car for two years ICly and nothing has happened with it, that's not fun for the driver, and that's also not fun for the people who work in the automotive infrastructure.

Why are we arguing about upkeep costs being bad in a game where we constantly tell people that losing everything is part of the gameplay cycle in the first place? If you can afford a 200K car, you can afford four or five kay a month to pop a fender ding out. And yes, it IS generating RP.

I really like the idea of spinners on a vehicle, drawing attention to the vehicle equipped with them sort of like a weather effect in a room.

"The (vehicle's) $ spinners continue spinning despite (vehicle's) idleness."

Really rough, but you get the point. Makes me wanna steal that bitch more than the other car.

"At a certain point, there's a metagame element that comes into play with figuring out a premium goods economy. There are many, many things in game which have like, theoretical IC social cachet because the game tells you they do, but they really don't in the player metagame itself. Luxury cars definitely fit into this category in my experience, since their utility is not vastly different."

They absolutely do, actually. GMs take notice of who's buying "useless" luxury goods and playing a certain part. And they're more likely to assist players who do as well.

It's also a measure of RP. Or at least, intent. People buying "worthless" jewelry or other "pointless" objects are building clout in other ways. I really hate to see players discouraged from this. And in fact, I think the ability to dump even more money into purely cosmetic modifications, especially if customized by the tech, would lend to this even more.

My opinion on this is that it's very possible for you to spend a mil on a vehicle and lose it the next day if you're not careful. Vehicles already require a lot of work to make sure they stay safe and additional costs to take care of them is only going to make things more of a drag concerning them.

If you park your vehicle out in the open and someone wants to do something to it, they can as long as they xhelp first. Some of the things that can be done to them are pretty nasty too, but I won't say anything more about that here.

Why are we arguing about upkeep costs being bad in a game where we constantly tell people that losing everything is part of the gameplay cycle in the first place? If you can afford a 200K car, you can afford four or five kay a month to pop a fender ding out. And yes, it IS generating RP.

Vehicles have an upkeep cost, and just increasing it to transfer resources from one player to another arbitrarily does not foster anything like an improvement in the overall experience. You could basically extend this rationale to every system in the game. I don't think mandatory paid niche PC upkeep on guns, armour, secure tech, clothing, or whatever else would improve anyone's experience -- and again, any PC-mandatory system will break down, and then what? Everyone's cars are broken until 1 of the 2 mechanic PCs logs in?

As you can tell, I'm pretty strongly against any mandatory upkeep, I don't think systems should be made worse unless they're too powerful, and vehicles are already niche-ish as it is. Instead let's give a reason for players to want to spend flash on them, instead of just making them so one sub-archetype gets a larger pay-cheque.

Instead let's give a reason for players to want to spend flash on them, instead of just making them so one sub-archetype gets a larger pay-cheque.

This.

remove vehicles
As with 0x1mm's post, vehicles have that upkeep already, and it's -also- dependent on usage. If you're driving around more, you're not only paying more for what's there, but increasing the risk of getting in a fender bender.

Just as well, an accident topside forces you into RP and possibly paying more already.

If you're only seeing certain archetypes with cars, that perception might be skewed by the fact that people outside of those archetypes don't tend to play their characters as long. I've definitely seen deckers and doctors with top-end vehicles.
I thought I pretty clearly stated that I'm not for handing out welfare checks to people just because they invested in one skill over the other, and I stay true to that. But there are roles that are largely looked over by most players because they're almost entirely RP-driven roles when maybe they should have a bit more coded support, and instead of acknowledging this, we've somehow hit the entitlement breakpoint and sliced the community apart one what seems like a really innocuous request.

Now, to say that vehicle upkeep costs are not in line with the rest of the game: that I really disagree with. I'll put it in terms my simple murderhobo brain can parse out.

Okay, so I spent 200K on chrome and dough instead of buying a car. Two days later I'm killed and I lose it all. I buy a new set every month. That's a 200K a month upkeep cost. Sure, I can get cheaper chrome and armor (a cricket in this example) but I really *want* that flash stuff. So I agree on these terms and keep doing.

Now let's flip the example around, right? I spend 200K and I -win- my fight. Guess what? Still have upkeep! Used candy, got shot up, need a doctor, bled out and lost chrome, need more bullets for my gun, gotta pay someone to clean my gun, my flash clothing was damaged, need a tailor, etc.

That's upkeep that happens every single day in the game, and drives the economy as a whole.

For me to do the above example, I walk into your room and type kill X.

What I don't have to do is run a plot, talk with staff, get GM approval, buy expensive consumable RP devices, etc, just to cause you financial damage.

And you know what the mechanic character gets to do after all that time and effort put into damaging your vehicle? Input a few verbs and get paid. It's largely disproportionate in effort because, somehow, and for some reason unknown to me, a 200K gun and a 200K car are apparently worlds of difference apart in the amount of effort they take the player to get (They're not.)

We don't complain that it is mandatory to visit a medic when we get hurt in game which happens almost invariably without the players consent. Why are mechanics different from this? I don't believe cost is a factor we should be thinking about because that can be offset by making vehicles a little cheaper and/or reducing ethicol prices.

I'm willing to bet if we polled players how many times they had had to employ a character for their mechanic skills over the last year the average result would be less than one. That to me suggests the skill is under-utilised and that mechanics are not getting role play from a skill they have invested ue and time into. Bartenders by comparison get more rp than mechanics simply for tipping up behind a bar and advertising they are there which doesn't even require a skill investment. I'm not trying to diss bartenders here, I'm just trying to explain how disappointed I would be if I had invested time and UE into getting a job in game then got almost no rp out of the job.

That's exactly my point MongOfTheWeek.
We don't complain that it is mandatory to visit a medic when we get hurt in game which happens almost invariably without the players consent.

Well for one, it's not actually mandatory, and for another, there's an automated system in place. You could duplicate that with vehicle maintenance, but you end up with what amounts to a second ethicol pump.

You can make vehicles cheaper and their on-going costs more expensive, but you're basically punishing existing owners, and not really adding anything interesting to the system. Mechanics don't want people to just be forced to see them I'm sure, they want to do interesting things with people's vehicles and have those players enjoy that.

Drawing on my experience playing a char with one of the more expensive vehicles I'll throw in my opinion on some of the ideas here:

1. I definitely prefer the big up-front cost to a high maintenance cost. Having to worry about your vehicle slowly falling apart every time you take it for a spin doesn't sound super fun. It's less like me having to go to the medic after a fight and more like me having to go to the medic every couple weeks or so for a checkup no matter what. It looks like someone already suggested maintenance instead being a buff to your vehicle for awhile, so +1 to that.

2. Vehicles don't crash enough. Some character builds completely invalidate the chance to crash with a relatively low investment in the driving skill. This makes the skills and their associated advantages feel pretty worthless to invest in past a certain point. It should be easy to drive at normal speeds, but increasingly difficult to drive at high speeds, especially on bikes. More crashes means more fixups and towing for the mechanics to do. I don't think there should be any worse traffic than there is now though, unless you want to make vehicles worse than walking.

3. You should definitely be able to shoot vehicles to have a chance to hit someone inside. Bulletproof windows (and maintaining them) would help negate this. You should also be able to jump into a vehicle (car or aero, not a bike) to escape combat. That used to be possible, but it ended up being considered a bug. Personally I think if you were resourceful enough to have a vehicle placed as a getaway you should be able to get inside and drive off even if someone's shooting at you. It could come with a delay like with jumping so your pursuer can try to stop you first.

4. I would really like to see some way of swapping out license plates, or some equivalent thing player mechanics can do, so that you can get away with using your vehicle for shenanigans without it being instantly traced back to you. I don't know how this would work in a way that wouldn't also make it laughably easy to get away with stealing cars, but some way of maybe temporarily anonymizing my vehicle would be cool.

Waddle, I'm nearly certain there are mechanics in place (bad pun, sorry) for #4.

Being able to shoot cars or smash them with bats would probably entirely fix the issue that's being discussed now (lack of RP and work for 'skilled' labor) but that would require a major game policy change- and one I believe was enacted due to rampant player abuse in the past.

Frankly, I think being a bigtime thug in Red and having some players of less renown come smash your headlights on your car and flee is hecka thematic, and I really dislike how non-interactive automotives are right now, as it stands. In fact, in recent memory and events, a character was able to pull a big-time heist (cool!) out of an extremely hostile situation, but yet the 10-15 characters and hostile NPC's in the room literally could not interact with their character before Unlock X, enter X fired off and chances for RP were instantly lost. (not cool!)

I'd argue that vehicles are probably grossly overpowered as it is right now for doing bad things to people, and the only reason we're not seeing more often is because of numerous nerfs and policy changes over the years concerning them- as well as a general lack of awareness of some of the things you can do with them.

I've seen multiple situations where a mob has surrounded a vehicle and couldn't do anything to it so I'm going to keep tooting the "you should be able to bash vehicles that are occupied and drag people out of them if they get damaged enough" horn as long as I can.

Unoccupied vehicles though? That's someone logging in at 5AM and smashing every windshield in Withmore every couple of weeks. We all know players who would totally do this even if told not to.

If they get to bash a vehicle, it's only fair that it can run you over.
One thing many of these suggestions need to consider is that a lot of them would hinge entirely on the future (MASSIVE) vehicle combat rework that's still far far down the pipeline.

I'm only pointing this out so that when making these suggestions, people can keep them more to the grounds of feasible implementation.

*you=them, rather.
@TalonCzar

It's possibly changed while I was gone. There used to be something you could do but GM policy changed and they shut it down for making it too easy to steal cars.

And yeah you need to be able to take some hostile action against characters in vehicles. If that just means being able to attack the vehicles while characters are in them until they break enough that you can pull them out, that works too. As long as you can't Street Fighter unoccupied cars I'm happy. I don't think ramming pedestrians needs to be in quite as badly, and I have no idea how you would balance it. But it would be very funny.

You bring up a good point HolyChrome, but I'm not sure it's entirely relevant to the conversation we're having where mechanics are laying out their pain points with SD today.

I'd much rather worry about the here and now, and what's hard or not to implement, than sit waiting for Grid 3.0 or vehicle combat- but that's just my opinion.

Hm. Whether folks agree or disagree with my opinions in this thread, I am just really happy to see this is being discussed and that it has managed to get back on track after a brief derail.
Things like people hurting vehicles, vehicles hurting them back.

All of that would be in this new perceived system, which is why I'm bringing them up.

At least try to set some lines for delving into a completely different (albeit related) system that would be a massive workload when, like you said, we're discussing mechanics that could be done in the more immediate future.

To be honest, if we start allowing cars to ram people to defend themselves... well..

Actual vehicle combat is probably a long way off. A verb that checks if I have an appropriate weapon, tries to deal a small amount damage to the car based on my stats, and maybe another one that lets me try to haul a baka out of a sufficiently damaged vehicle would be a stopgap that would probably be significantly easier to code.

As for shooting, we can already shoot into other rooms. I'm willing to bet that there's a coded reason it would be difficult to code sniping into a nearby car, but if it's not too terrible a chore, even that alone could let some pressure off similar to the recent change to ORBs.

I might have gotten a bit off track talking about damaging vehicles, my intent was more to generally complain about their total non-interactivity.

And earlier in the thread, when I was saying that I think putting cars on a pedestal over other material possessions was dumb, that's exactly what I meant. I was not trying to elude that I think vehicle combat should be a thing or should be a top priority or anything (I'm not even certain that I like the concept at all, based on some experiences in other games of a similar nature.)

@waddle and Talon.

Pretty sure plate swapping isn't a thing right now and hasn't been since Cerb disallowed it forever ago. It's one of the things that makes getting away in a vehicle cleanly difficult and maybe needs to be looked at.

@Necronex666

That's what I thought yeah. It was apparently pending some big overhaul to vehicle registration, but a smaller fix for making it harder to trace vehicles back to you in the meantime would be welcome.

At the time it was pretty annoying and trying to use vehicles for anything fun felt overly-restrictive. Can't speak to how things are now, but it might be a good idea to re-examine the policies on that stuff.

I do think some people forget that you already need to get out of stealth to get into cars, and when you do unlock them maybe people just gotta pay attention to the messages and not miss them in the scroll (especially if there's a mob situation going on) and notice someone unlocking their vehicle and taking some time to get out of stealth to see if anybody would do anything to their unlocked car too instead of simply throwing the accusation out that they instantly jumped in without a chance at interaction. I also do think it's realistic if people miss something going on in the scroll or someone getting into their car amidst the chaos :-)

That being said you can already damage cars with GM support. I'm sure if there was a situation going on and you needed to fuck a vehicle up then you can always xhelp and the GMs would help.

That being said I already mentioned in another thread that as long as damaging a vehicle mechanically isn't able to be exploited (vehicles not in use for example) and there are ways to defend oneself against just being yeeted out of vehicles then it makes sense.

@Ranger.

You can totally just use a macro to get into a vehicle in under two seconds though. That's really not a whole lot of time for a reaction and I don't think there's a delay on the enter command when you enter a new tile.

You may be able to use a macro but when people don't and give time to react on purpose then people say "oh but we didn't have a time to react" as if people were exploiting mechanics it isn't cool.
Eh, think I may have missed something. I don't think there's actually a way to "exploit mechanics" here though, considering even using a macro to blaze your way into a vehicle isn't against the rules.

It's annoying, but allowed.

I have been in many situations where I was waiting to ambush someone right outside their vehicle but they simply entered 'unlock X' and then 'enter X' before I could type 'attack Joe'. I did think it was annoying but it is the same case as sneaking into pads. Just because you were slow to react doesn't necessarily mean the system is entirely wrong or non-interactive, and it also isn't realistic to expect someone to wait for you to input a command or slow themselves because you're a slow typer or you're slow to react.

If you think about it the other person has to actually input two commands while you only have to input the single attack command. In both cases, they are instant commands.

Anyway, furthermore, I still think that doing shit to vehicles IN USE makes sense as long as there are ways to counter that too, so that it is balanced. Better windshields, hardened frames etc. so that not everyone can just smash up a car and tug anyone out.

That's against the rules Ephemeralis, and pretty easy to spot too.

With sneaking into apartment, the delay depends on IC factors, with car it seems to be tied directly into typing speed, so maybe the change should be to make entering cars/mounting bikes a threaded command, similar to walking, and rely on IC factors?

@Marleen

But then think of it like this. Walking is threaded, but so is sneaking.

Attacking someone isn't threaded. Neither is entering a car. If you make one threaded then you instantly give the advantage to the person that types the attack command.

Vehicles already had the feature where you could instantly get out of combat if you entered them and now that no longer exists.

I mean, it seems a bit unrealistic that someone can be hanging outside of your car, and your response to that is to somehow effortlessly sneak past them, unlock the car, jump in and lock it behind you. Although I just realized that this is massively off-topic here so maybe something for another thread.
Also, gotta add in that this is a MUD after all and there will always be differences in typing speed. It's a text-based game. I don't know how I feel about people having to limit their typing speed. Just like who types 'attack X' first in combat situations, it happens.

Furthermore, ICly it takes a while to walk on the street or go into somewhere because they are long distances. I'm not sure how much sense it makes for someone to take five seconds or something to get into their car or on their bike that is already in the same room.

There are even IC ways to disable vehicles and prevent them from moving.

@Marleen

Well, kind of like how you could be waiting outside someone's pad or waiting outside an elevator and they could sneak out and lock the door behind them or whatever and if you don't have the appropiate skill and stats you won't see them come out of that door, even if you're 'ICly' watching the door or whatever.

It's a door frame, how realistic is it that someone sneaked through it while you were staring at it?

Sometimes you just have to handweave that your character got distracted, looked away for a second and it happened.

I'm gonna be as vague as possible here.

There was a situation where I was waiting for someone to come out of a building, knew exactly where they would be, had the attack command primed and ready, yet all it took for them to get away was a unlock/enter macro that took maybe a second in total to finish.

I am not a slow typer, it's just near impossible to beat the macro of someone that knows where their vehicle is, while you don't know exactly when they'll be in your tile. This happened three or four times as well, so it definitely wasn't just luck. With the way vehicles currently are all it takes is someone getting to them to be invincible, hence my annoyance.

I'll clarify that this person didn't even need to sneak around.
Macros and typing speed are kind of irrelevant to this particular thread.
I'm not averse to a small delay for getting into vehicles. At the same time, someone -should- have an easier time escaping an ambush in the one tile their car is in. You always have the option of trying to ambush someone away from their vehicle so it's not gamebreaking.
Let me state that I'm also not against a SMALL delay that isn't gamebreaking considering I personally don't use macros with my vehicle and I've never seen someone do it under the span of two seconds or faster than I could type attack X. However if someone's normally typing unlock X then proceeds to enter X then I don't believe you should take a long time and make it easy for people to ambush you if your car is also at the tile you're in either.

Like I said, attack is an instant command and it'd be almost immediately giving the advantage to someone wanting to ambush if the delay wasn't balanced properly. A 0.5 second or one second or something delay between both commands to ensure this "macro" stat thats apparently happening however I can get behind I guess.

Just because a few players are using macros to do it in an unrealistic time doesn't mean all vehicle players are or that shit is overpowered or invincible either.

I don't think you understand what people mean by ambush.

Vehicles are huge investments that used to be able to save you from direct combat. I don't understand what makes players think that you should be able to instantly disregard someone owning a vehicle and treat it as a simply faster way of walking. That has never been the point of vehicles. It's one use but not the sole purpose.

Although the safety of vehicles is only the safety of cars. Bikes are hella unsafe. The tradeoff from not having to suffer traffic.
I will say this again -- there are IC ways (multiple) to get past the 'safety' of cars.
Only if those cars are stationary, Ranger. The moment someone is locked inside of one they can just drive off the moment you try to do something to them. And as it requires xhelping to damage one it's very common for that vehicle to be moved before you're able to receive GM attention.
And in situations where you know a character will be using that vehicle and you want them to NOT use the vehicle you can take the measures on the stationary vehicle to ensure they cannot use it to escape. I honestly can't see what the problem is unless, like you mentioned Necro, people are somehow doing it in the span of a second. I haven't seen this happening so I can't comment on it.
I don't think you really know what you are talking about because I can think of ways that use only 2-3 short input commands to entirely ruin the point of having a vehicle.

They're not invulnerable. I understand that you want to make vehicles merely a faster way of transportation but like I said, that isn't why we have vehicles in the game.

That's because macros do allow characters to enter vehicles in around a second or so, I even checked the timestamps on it via Mudlet all three or four times it happened to me. Thread has already been derailed a bit, so I'm just gonna say that a delay would work for this, like waddle suggested.
I think all the points have already been made. I encourage a small delay to block macros that suddenly have players doing commands under one second or whatever, but the rest I'm against.
This is almost unrelated and pretty impractical but I'm going to post it before I forget: let me have one of those robot drivers installed in my car. They can work with the taxi code and bring my car over to me to pick me up when I call them. That would be dope.