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The Mix is a slum
It sucks there

If you live in the Mix you are probably not supposed to be talking about how good the lattes and filet mignon are. It's a living nightmare where horrible things happen to everyone and you cannot access basic necessities like food and medicine unless you are part of the parasitic .01% bleeding the other poor people dry. The corporations stole your future and are dancing on your grave before it's even been dug. Please God get it under control and respect your surroundings, it is very hard to police this stuff IC when it is so rampant.
+1

mix is a shit hole let's keep it that way

Please. This.

It pulls the rug from under theme when any player tries to shrug off how shitty it is in the Mix. I've seen so many Mixers trying to play it off as "not being that bad" and trying to play house in an over-populated, disease and crime ridden shithole.

Mechanically, yes, Mixers have the capacity to make more than corpies.

Mechanically, yes, they can buy corpie luxury goods like steaks and lattes.

But you're completely ruining the entire purpose of cyberpunk by ignoring the symptoms of it. Essentially stealing the give and take relationship of Mixer/Corpie RP.

For the love of fucking God, stop trying to act like a corpie while saying you hate them. You look ridiculous and it contributes nothing to interactions.

I agree with you on principle Vera, but this post sounds like bleed.

It's also extremely ironic talking about the 0.01% in such a manner when that's exactly what most player characters are.

you are part of the parasitic .01% bleeding the other poor people dry

I'm cherry picking words here, but...

They shouldn't be. Refer to my post 'the mix is too rich' where I discuss how inappropriate it is that bartenders and garbage collectors are sitting on enough money to afford cars and xo5.
People eat rats and bugs or even humans, and it isn't because they just really like to. The next best thing to real meat is mass-produced cheap soy for a reason and broadcasting wealth is probably giving people desperate and hungry a great reason to rob you. The world is dying, the only thing keeping anything going or the least bit plush for anyone fortunate enough is the megacorps.

If you want to avoid the harsher edges of the game's dystopian theme, play a corpie.

Newer player here. I see what your saying but at the same time.. if your character has it good they might not see life in the mix shitty or even have that big of a problem with mixers. Especially since we are immigrants. We didn't grow up in the society we joined it. The corpies didn't steal anything from me. I'm not from here. I can see it as a shithole cuz I have to step over corpses and stuff..

But I don't see why it's an issue to rp enjoying the mix if your doing it in such a way that your character has become numb or goes out of their way to try to ignore the violence and destruction around them. It's a common human coping mechanism. Not every person in the slum thinks life is shit. Not in our real life slums either.

For clarification, the parasitic .01% I'm referring to is like, well established max UE characters in positions of enormous institutional/factional power. The kinds of people who can show up at Uphoria or KMB and not immediately get thrown out.
The entire overarching theme of cyberpunk is putting a lens on the symptoms of rampant capitalism, and the interaction between the haves and have-nots.

Yes, people are able to learn to cope and accept how shitty things are, but you also shouldn't be enjoying eating absolute shit food one day and enjoying it with the same zeal as a fresh salad the next.

I'm with Talon, this sounds like an attempt to shame someone in a public out-of-character venue rather than handling it ingame. I've never seen anyone change their RP because someone wrote a snippy post about the kind of story they were telling.

The most effective way I've seen theme enforced is through in-character means. If someone's putting on airs of being corporate and privileged while living in the Mix, there are lots of ways to call them out on it. Play an elitist corpie? Remind them that they'll never, ever be you - no matter how many lattes they pose with. Play a mixer? Shun them, they're showing signs of getting on that road topside, and once they cain out, they'll leave you and your friends behind. Treat them so.

Well Talon's incorrect and I'm referring to a broad trend that had gotten to the point where it's extremely difficult to police IC because more people seem to be doing it than not.
@Rhicora

There's certainly some starker examples lately, but this manifests in other ways beyond one person being loud about it.

I want to underline the systemic issue I brought up earlier where "everything is fine down here, corpies are dumb".

Corpies have it far better, flat out. It's extremely easy for Mixers to brag they have more money than a majority of corporate players, but it doesn't mean they should.

I agree that IC is always best, but having the discussion in an OOC venue as to -why- is also important because not a lot of people realize how they're watering down theme as a result of their actions.

Theme takes voluntary participation and a bit of 'upkeep.' If enough people decide they're not interested in the Mix's theme and are going to RP differently, other people will join in not understanding that it's odd and unrealistic for the game's world. Discussing the game's standards for theme helps establish the awareness that this is unusual and that as a Mixer, you should be making an effort to reflect your surroundings rather than opt out. Ideally, it should self-correct IC but that isn't really happening.
I should probably clarify as well:

I -want- Mixers to be angry at corpies and vice versa. And this is exactly how these sparks are created.

"Fuck you for having it better than me."

"Fuck you for existing."

That's the give-and-take relationship of classist RP and when players can opt out? It's a lot of missed opportunities.

Thinking I misunderstood the issue of the discussion. I think based on your comment I am doing Ok. That was really the intention of my post was to find out if I was part of the problem. It doesn't seem that I am. Thanks
If there are often mixers who have more money than corporates, the fact that they're bragging about it isn't the problem. People are going to boast when they have more of something, that's just human nature; it's probably even more common in Red, where if you're poor as hell and finally get a lucky break, you want people to know you made it.

It sounds more like the problem is that corpies don't have enough luxury high-status things available exclusively to them to differentiate themselves, and/or rich mixers don't have enough expenses and obstacles thrown at them. The problem can't be fixed by saying "you're RPing wrong", and all that's going to do is annoy people.

@Rhicora

Because again. Mechanics.

Steaks don't cost 50k a piece because that'd be pointless.

The same way that brass knuckles cost 26k because they have far more mechanical usage.

Mixers have the opportunity to make more than corpies because they lose more.

Why? Mechanics. If you want a realism simulator, Mixers should be capped at 5k a week. But that isn't the case, because we know that this is a game. So we adjust our RP accordingly. How do we adjust our RP? We tell people when they're being wrong.

Mixers are able to make money much more easily than corpies. Like, all mixers. It's kind of ridiculous.

But that's not the main issue. You can have money IC and still act like you have to resort to cannibalism or robbery or whatever to feed yourself. The main issue is people deciding they just don't want to bother with theme and drinking mochas and eating fillet mignon because they have access to it and it's not mechanically expensive.

Ideally if you did this, other Mixers would beat the shit out of you, but that only works until you reach a critical mass of theme-ignorers. Then suddenly 5 or 10 players will decide YOU are the asshole for insisting that these 21st century Portlandians are the problem, and it's weird that you're insisting people should eat rat instead of steak.

And part of playing a role-playing game is telling stories that often involve character building and development. Like setting a goal to someday have the means to make a latte in the mix.

My character, like most other mixer immigrant characters, started with absolutely nothing, and spent close to two years now hustling and grinding every single day to get where they are now, which is essentially fuck you rich mixer status. Hyopthetically, someone who just comes in the dome sees my character as some rich stuckup corpie wannabe, then makes a bitch thread about a comment my character makes on the BGBB. Do you see how this can come off as downright inflammatory towards the group of super bad RP players we're all here to collectively complain about?

Posts like this come off as preaching to a choir and smack of groupthink. Instead of offering creative solutions on how to better improve your RP as a player to bring more theme into the mix, it is instead saying: "Hey, I don't like this RP and this RP trend, so don't do that." It's not constructive, the tone is disparaging, and it's not following the spirit of the forum etiquette guidelines.

Then I'd rather see the mechanics adjusted to make mixers appropriately poor. If we've somehow given mixers way too much money and inflated the economy, then prices should go up for luxuries for which we want to give the impression of scarcity.

Vera's right - it is weird to insist someone eat rat instead of steak when they have the choice. The root problem's that mixers have the option to live a corp-esque lifestyle at all, not that they're roleplaying it when they do.

I agree that corporates should be paid far more than they are, in keeping with the theme. Maybe there's a world in which a steak - rare, real - ought to cost 50k, so that it's priced out of reach of all but the most well-paid corporate citizens. Chyen doesn't need to have any parallel with existing currency, and if we're willing to imagine there's only a limited amount of steak, corporate citizens are going to be bidding it up.

This is a theme board to discuss theme.

No one's breaking any guidelines.

And you can discuss theme without sounding like an asshole.
As for changing it so that Mixers are more poor? No.

I want Mixers to be able to afford armor, chrome, and weapons. That's the whole reason why they have money. We shouldn't gimp the entire Mix in that regard to have SD be a realism simulator.

Then don't complain when mixers have armor, chrome, and weapons and talk about it.
That isn't the complaint, Rhicora.

If it helps, Talon, I'm not discussing your character so try not to take this post personally.

I am speaking to a broader trend and the negative fallout from it. If ten players see five players doing this kind of thing, they're going to take cues from them and start imitating them instead of reading the room descriptions, then it becomes impossible to police IC because you start to sound like a crazy person for insisting that you live in a cyberpunk hellscape when everyone else lives in an episode of How I Met Your Mother.

I'm not fingerwagging bad RP, just asking people to consider whether they're playing to theme.

The thread is constructive, it calls attention to a trend that sort of lapses Mix theme. With that attention, Mixers will hopefully understand what makes good Mix RP and then adjust their RP accordingly. Another facet to this is that more people should be reacting to shit and trying to take things from those who have things to be taken and brag about it.
Just to Issue my Two cents.. I think Talon has a good point about the ... color of this post. IT's really negative sounding. But I also really agree with ColyHhrome and Vera.. You got money yeah.. But you live in a shithole with a billion other shitholes and all you see and can get around here is shit. Sure, go buy a steak if you can afford it, but let it be known you worked your ass off for that steak, that those god damned corpies get handed to them. And bitch about how you hear them talk about eating fruit, when all you can afford is that synthetic fruit salad they sell at the grocery store. That's what we're talking about. The tone of the rich mixers needs to shift. That's what I get from it anyway.

So does anyone have any POSTIVE tips for keeping that theme alive, as mixers with decent cash flow?

@majere If you're eating filet mignon and bragging about it as a Mixer, stop and start murdering those who do.

Together, we can make the Mix a shittier, more cyberpunky place.

I'm trying to understand the complaint, but it sounds like it's a realism concern: someone is annoyed about lattes and steak while having no objection to far-more-expensive chrome, armor, and weapons.

If one mixer wants to spend their hard-hustled chy on pretentious corpie stuff, laugh at them and shun them for it. If many of them do, maybe staff should raise the prices until they can't afford it.

I don't think the right thing to do is to complain about their conspicuous consumption on the forums. Plenty of poor people try to enjoy nice things when they can, and if we're being honest, it's more realistic for mixers to have a fancy coffee in hand than it is for them to have chrome of any sort.

@Majere

Both sides could stand to paint more from the palette they're given.

Corpies should be spending more on ridiculous "unnecessary" things and showing it off.

Mixers should embrace the grime. Instead of making Eggs Benedict, make some atrocious synth-potato salad with soyanuts and practically plastic mayo.

Let me simplify the complaint for you.

Chrome, armor and weapons are means to survival.

Lattes and steak are luxury.

@Rhicora

Back to application of realism vs mechanics:

People don't complain a sledgehammer costs as much as it does IC because it'd be silly to since it's implemented from a mechanics standpoint.

The same with how it's silly to brag you have luxury goods in the Mix, because they're a reduced price from a mechanics standpoint.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should when it comes to RP.

Also a sword is not, themewise, half the price of a motorcycle. That's just a game mechanics thing for balance that you're meant to not look at too hard.
I initially stated that I agree with the overall sentiment, and I do. We should need to differentiate between the mix and topside. A mixer never gets rich working a nine to five, whereas it's entirely plausible for a corpcit to work a nine to five and slowly build wealth to luxury status.

We have a huge thread discussion stating that characters are in fact, special and not representative of the destitute masses of the mix. Because roleplaying scavenging in dirt and eating brick soup isn't fun gameplay. I'm arguing that our characters are not supposed to be representative of the ambient population of the game. If you want to play that way, that's totally OK. It's also totally OK if you want to fake being rich as fuck in the mix and use your last 10 chyen from crates to buy a Rolex and then shit talk other mixers about how loaded you are.

It literally creates gameplay for huge numbers of people for people to take stances that aren't representative of reality in the game world.

We tell people to fake it till you make it all the time because it makes for good stories and good roleplay. Again, it's fine to play a street urchin clothed in rags, but there's limits on how far you can take that kind of RP, and it can be super boring for the player doing it. That's my opinion why we don't see more of those kinds of characters.

While we might agree that these comments aren't in line with the overall theme of the mix, it also presents tons of opportunities for characters to start plots and plan shady things around, which is one of the reasons I don't have a problem with characters sometimes saying things that don't especially seem like they're on theme, generally speaking. Chances are, if someone in the mix is bragging about having nice shit that's not on theme, that they've done very themely things to get there.

I can understand that; if everyone agrees that steak is mistakenly underpriced, and we're just waiting for staff to increase how much it costs, sure - don't boast about it like it's a luxury until the mechanics make it so.

But again, the core problem isn't that mixers are excited about eating real food for once in their pathetic soyavore lives; of course they are - I'd even go so far as to say that's good RP! The core issue lies in the mechanics, which I'm 100% on board with fixing.

If we just raise the price of luxury goods, people will just no longer use them.

Thus, self-policing.

It's the same reason why we don't use memes and IC references with heavy-handed frequencies. Self-policing.

We don't need a mechanical filter on SIC to remove "yeet"

We don't need mechanics to stop people from buying and eating steak.

> If we just raise the price of luxury goods, people will just no longer use them.

We don't want mixers buying steak; as far as they're concerned, this is a good thing. Pay corpies enough so that it doesn't hurt their wallet to buy flashy, showoff steak, and the problem is solved.

But steak isn't underpriced.

Rhicora, items in the game are priced around the concept of game balance rather than IC realism. Swords are expensive because they're powerful weapons and it needs to be a risk when you pull one out. Steak is cheap because it's an incidental RP item that shouldn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things. Moreover, ALL characters have access to more money than theme would indicate in order to promote risk-taking and allow them to create and drive plot.

It is therefore the players' responsibility to assess their characters' stations and behave appropriately IC. Other players can police this to a point but you can only take it so far before it becomes a meta/ooc complaint which is when it's time for an ooc reminder on the forums.

Giving corpies more money isn't the solution to this problem.

Because there's plenty of corpies guilty of this same problem but in reverse, and never actually spending their money. We raise their pay, they'll just be driving down in their Cricket, picking up the paycheck, and depositing it like before.

Corpies -should- self-police and spend more of the money they're making.

I think part of the issue is this whole 'one kay a week and you're good' thing the gangs have going on. Apart from a corpie tax when people fall, this blanket fee feels...really low, especially given how much money mixers can make. Expenses for mixers are supposed to come from being shaken down, and gangers should be scary because they can afford the best shit because they shake the most people down and also there are a lot of them. I'd say don't toll people one universal amount, toll them based on how well off they come off as.
If steak and lattes are meant to be signifiers of disposable wealth, then I believe their prices are something we should be intentional about. It sounds like they carry a meaningful status difference from soy paste and cheap beer in your eyes, and I think it makes sense for that to be reflected in the price. That is a game balance issue, even if it's from a social angle rather than a combat one.

Characters are going to continue choosing nice things if they're able to do so painlessly and sustainably, just like they would in real life. It would be a game balance decision to make consuming nice things a more difficult prospect for mixers, and an easier one for corpies, and I think it'd be a good one.

Well THAT I agree with, Rhicora.
Nah, I'm saying mechanics and RP are different and people should learn to self-police instead of simply doing what the game lets them do.
Mechanics are driving RP here, and tweaking them can lead to more themely outcomes!
Make a shit Mix supermarket with sludgy cola, soy shaped into vaguely appealing forms, and frozen pizza.
I think there's a distinction in that mechanics are a backdrop for RP.

GMs happen to enforce playing your CHA/INT more than this.

There's certainly mechanical changes that can occur to stop Mixers from buying luxury goods more easily, and I agree.

I'm more concerned about theme awareness though and reinforcing the need to self-police entirely, IE: Stop acting like the Mix is warm and cozy.

@HolyChrome I totally agree there - the Mix sucks and in general I've seen people play it that way. It's a horrible, miserable place where you'll see a dead body every day. Your apartment smells like onions and urine, if you're lucky enough to have one. Everyone's hustling and most people are desperate enough that putting any degree of trust in them is a huge mistake.

But that's part of why - if you make some flash in the Mix and can't leave - you're probably going to use it to show off a little. You're going to take your input out to a nice dinner and pretend you're Mix-rich. You're going to put some rims on a car you still owe a shark for.

There's constructive ways to spin flashy Mix consumption (both as the character doing it, or the one reacting to it). Maybe the character's still struggling, but they're trying really hard not to let it show, and the occasional showy move helps them come off as a bigshot. Or they hustled for years, and as they plunge the knife into the steak, it's time for a conversation about what they had to do to get there. There's ways to get excellent mixer RP out of a situation like this; either play up the fact that it was a struggle on the way up, or the precariousness of slipping back down.

All of this to say, if I were a steak-eater I'd rather hear cool ideas about how to add better theme to my writing, instead of being told knock-it-off for doing exactly what my character would do.

I always thought mixers make far too much money. It doesn't matter if you're the 0.1% that 'makes it'. Even if you're a big crime boss in Red, even a middling corpie should have at least as much money as you. In fact, in my experience, because there's so much hustling in Red, I found that aside from oldbies, most mixers have more money than corpies and I don't think anyone disagrees the difference in salaries is pretty insignificant, especially when you consider that corpies have more living costs than mixers. Clothes are much more important. Food is more expensive. Cars, cabs, rent (if you pay it). Mixers? What do they have? Tolls? Easily avoidable. The end result is that while corpies don't 'struggle' as much, because of the nature of their RP and Judges, they have less money to throw around and be as flash as they rightfully should be.

The divide doesn't exist except in a very literal sense where you're generally not going to have either party stroll on up or down to the other sector and interact easily. But mixers don't really hate corpies or vice versa, because they have no reason to do so. People *ocassionally* pretend, but the whole reason we have mechanics is so we shouldn't have to pretend. Corpies should be modded out of their minds, chromed to the gills, wearing clothes that could blind the average mixer, and mixers should be wearing rags, getting illnesses, missing appendages and getting loans. Not all of them, of course, but in all my time playing I think I've only ever seen like, two people complain about life on Red, and both times they were fresh immies who had probably just gotten robbed of their 300 chy.

I will just say I agree with some other posters in the thread. I don't think this is a player behaviour issue. If mixers can afford steak, of course they're going to brag about it. The whole point of us having mechanics to help our RP is so we don't have to 'pretend' anything. The issue is that they can afford steak. If you play a mixer, you are making a conscious decision to play in an absolute shithole filled with death and degeneracy at every corner. That doesn't mean you can't 'make it', but you should expect to be broke and struggling for a lot of your character's lifespan. The problem is that even a clueless mix immy with no skills will be rolling in as much money as a recent-ish corpie in just a couple of weeks. That creates a situation of suspension of disbelief where we have to pretend corpies are rich and powerful. They're usually not (again, dismissing oldbies). In fact, I've found the opposite, newer to middling corpies are usually broke as hell and very vulnerable for a variety of reasons in comparison to mixers in the same situation.

All this to say it's a complex issue that can't be fixed just by changing job payouts. A complete overhaul of the economy of the game is the only way this could be changed significantly. But this is a real issue, and I'd even say a good part of why we have less corpies than mixers. Why would you play a corporate when a mixer is going to have more money, RP, and contacts than you at almost all stages of your character's life?

Lets not forget most people are poor and starving and struggeling in the mix, but the PC tend to be the outliners.

So, if you think your fellow PC outliners has too much money is and is way too comfortable in the Mix eating fillet mignione and sipping space brandy.

Maybe rob that bakalaka?

Talonczar and Rhicora inspired me to post this https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/mixenette-1969/ which could be a positive change, though jt'd require some Builder and fix-it work.

Your statement is fine on paper ErgoProxy, but generally there are fewer people robbing and more people doing whatever else (which is fine) and while the robbers do try to police the harshness of the Mix, they're subject to the same game mechanics and time/energy constraints everyone else is and can only do so much.

Like I said, if one guy is flashing luxury he hasn't earned and gets jumped, he had it coming. If ten people are flashing luxury they haven't earned and one person tries to police that? The thief looks like the asshole.

Not to mention if you rob the rich guy, you become the rich guy. It solves nothing. Wealth doesn't just disappear.

If we want to talk actual changes, I'd say lowering non-corporate jobs payouts and running payout % would be a good start (I know they already lowered it before). Maybe lowering the weekly cap as well?

Other than that, the only issue I see is weapons. For combat characters/gangers, they can be fairly easy to obtain and are very valuable/easy to flip.

Why not add durability to weapons? Kind of like how gun cleaning works, but have it affect weapon value and effectiveness. That way, you no longer have some nameless ganger running around like a loot pinata. Plus all the other benefits, gangers actually enforcing tolls more and focusing more on biz, fighting more (because you no longer need just one weapon to be done for the week) and create RP and work for people with the ability to repair weapons. Plus, it'd get people attached to their weapons. You want that flash-ass katana? Better spend the time, RP and money on it to make sure it cuts through mixers like butter.

Minor shoutout to more melee weapon mods. We really should have them. Let people engrave these tricked out weapons so they grow a history and raise in (not mechanical) value.

It would be interesting to get staff input on this.

But I would much rather see corpies getting richer and than mixers getting poorer.

This is something I'm personally pushing all the time and is a cornerstone of my RP. I think the only way the mix would be enjoyable at all is if you're constantly on a permanent rotation of heavy drugs to deal with the shit you're seeing all the time. Older players can help act this out by spoofing non-reactions (in a themely callous way) to room descriptions of murder/muggings, etc. This helps guide the newbies.
I agree with the intent of this topic. I love the theme of the mix and I designed my character in such a way so I can enjoy its garbage, filth, despair, and poverity, because that's the kinds of story line I wanted. While my character could get access to more expensive, corpie-like food, I make it a point that they don't get it and eat gross shit instead. I think if a mixer gets their hands on some steak or lattes, it is a real special occasion. Like, really special. It doesn't mean your mixer character can't have it, but it should be played appropriately that you somehow got your hands on whatever the good is and fuck those corpies who get to eat that shit every day. It's a classic haves vs. have nots, and I think this applies to everything a mixer can get their hands on.

I also warn against generalities. Sure, there are mixers with money, because as it's been laid out, mixers can make it if they're willing to do whatever they have to. That doesn't mean every mixer is rich. In fact, I've seen plenty who can't even afford the beer at the bar or the medical care for their latest ass-kicking. I think those mixers with lots of money should be doing something with it (spending it, hiring people to do shit for them, etc), so it always come back to, "You have something I want and I can't get it." If you want to play a character who is rich and has all the cool shit and crushing hopes and dreams, the mix might not be it, unless there is a really good plot behind it.

I both agree and disagree with the thread because some characters having a lot of fucking money in the Mix is not unthemely, at least not in my eyes.

I feel like gunning for every character to be "poor" even though they're incredibly well connected and wealthy - More than most corpies - is incredibly silly.

Some characters do push it too far. I've mostly seen this with new ones though, rather than veterans.

Rich mixers are a minority. Most of the players playing characters in the mix, are not rich and can't afford chrome or gear.

Rich corpies are also a minority. Most of the players playing characters topside, are not rich and can't afford rent in Blue or a Holden.

Also, the richest corpies are ten times richer than the richest mixers. This is a reality, among PCs and NPCs.

Players who are poor but ignore the miserable existence they have in Red aren't grasping the theme properly but it's just a matter of time for someone to rob, beat, or kill them to remind them where they stand.

From my perspective, the issue isn't mixers having money. You can still have money and treat the mix like the shithole it is. The issue is more around ignoring theme and treating the mix as a slightly more dangerous version of green without judges. Two totally different things.
@Celestial & Villa

There are of course exceptions to every rule, this certainly being one of them.

While those exceptions do exist, I also hope to see it coupled with some projection of -why- they exist. Obviously, getting into specifics about this (IC & OOC) is better left unsaid, but I hope the wink-wink nudge-nudge is clear... both IC & OOC again.

@Sly

Even if you're a big crime boss in Red, even a middling corpie should have at least as much money as you.

I disagree with this. The average wageslage should be doing all sort of less-than-legal activities if they want to be able to compete with a super criminal in the mix who's finding all kinds of ways to abuse the system for chy. The difference is that one depends mostly on passive income and the other usually has multiple established streams of income, passive and active.

I think the same thing applies for topside/mix in general so I'm just gonna echo what a few have already said on this thread. If characters have access to stuff they're gonna go get it.

As for corpie wages being raised? Not necessary, especially since CorpShare will be giving bonuses as appropriate to effort when it's rolled out.

I would say you don't need to envy the corporate lifestyle. I remember a chapter in I think Mona Lisa Overdrive where Molly Millions returns to the Sprawl and it goes on to explain how comfortable she is returning to the slums. To a lot of mixers the idea of topside life feels fabricated where they would rather have the grit of reality, especially as successful solos. This doesn't mean it is pleasant, and they should have complaints, but for many it's the preferable life they have chosen.
@Varolokkur

I don't think anyone's saying that in order to play a Mixer, you need to have a certain active cognitive dissonance, pining to be a corpie while forcing yourself to play a Mixer.

The overall message is that if you -are- one of the people embracing the grime, embrace it fully. Or at least lean that way. In regards to food, if you love the slums, then eating Tony's Pizza would be preferred than steak tartar because the former reminds you more of "home". Crisp/clean clothing shouldn't feel right.

I know a lot of this thread is generalizations and can certainly come across as browbeating (how dare your Mixer wear a Rolex!) and I have no expectation for people to play caricatures. I do ask that people consider the weight of their actions at the least and how they contribute to the overall theme.

I think these complaints are misplaced, especially in the sense that mechanics must be preserved but some contrary subjective theme enforced.

As I say often, what the game tells you happened, happened. There shouldn't be any cognitive dissonance required for the sake of someone else's immersion. If you have issues with the IC reality presented by the game, those are the complaints to make.

I can buy food of every variety very cheaply IC, indeed the price has gone down dramatically in the past year. The message from that isn't 'food is scarce and luxuries a rarity'. Quite the opposite.

That said I agree in principle that exotic and "expensive" food is extremely cheap and readily accessible to every character regardless of income or status. However I think the notion that players should pretend otherwise and maintain cognitive dissonance for the sake of someone's subjective immersion is ridiculous.

The IC reality is the theme. Either the IC needs to be adapted if it is considered by staff to be unthemely, or players need to adapt their concept of what the theme is to match the IC reality.

The mixnette suggestion is a good one, if this is going to change is has to change, not 'let's all pretend this drek isn't cheap as dirt'.

@Villa

I disagree that rich mixers are the minority. If we're clear on two things, I'm talking PC population, not ambient, and that by 'rich' I don't mean flying dropships and carrying several sets of endgame gear. I mean living comfortably, where dying or losing a good chunk of their stuff wouldn't really set them back. I think a good number of mixers are sitting comfortably in that spot.

I'd agree with corpies, though. I do think there are very few rich ones and that shouldn't be the case.

@Celestial

I don't think anyone wants every mixer to be poor. They want the mix to feel oppressive and difficult to live in, as advertised. It simply isn't unless you play to lose. There's simply too much money flowing through it and it's super easy to get, so the occasional beatdown/dip/killing feels like an inconvenience for most players, rather than something that makes them hate the mix, like it should. You should have to work to succeed in the mix. It's not a sure bet like it is being a wageslave. As it currently stands, you don't.

@BigArg

People treat the mix like it's Green without the judges because it functionally is. So we either ask players to pretend it isn't, or we turn it into the oppressive, awful place to live it's meant to be. Look at progia dips. Happens everyday, yet nobody gives a fuck, because a new progia is chump change. People RP it as annoying because well, it is. Take (some of) their money away, and they'll treat it more seriously and be more bummed out and *****take more action.*****

I personally don't care how much money someone has or how fancy their clothes are. I just want the mix to be difficult to live in and mixers to feel that, because it'll help drive roleplay a ton. As I see it, the mix is only really dangerous when you get involved in plots, which make it exactly the same as the corporate backstabbing world. Which it shouldn't be.

And I want weapon mods because weapon mods are cool and themely.

I think it's less about the bragging and more about -how- the bragging manifests.

I'd like to see more soft boasting in direct character situations. Or rp that isn't even boasting, but is like...thankful almost. You have all this high quality shit but you -know- it might be fleeting, or you -know- you're one of the few who is some combination of smart and lucky enough to have a taste of the good life. Easy come, easy go, right?

And so what if you're a hot-shot mixer with a shit load of flash? Did you just send some no name baka on a job and pay them a few kay? Sure, they're beneath you, and you can roleplay that. Or rp that you know what it's like to be in their shoes. Pay em that few kay and it looks like a shitload to somebody with less than you. What constitutes a lot is relative to how much you're used to having, after all. And what does a desperate mixer want? A rat kebab, maybe a beer or a joy. Small pleasures for small time mixers. Tell them to chase that as an option because that's the norm. Not to mention it can open up dialogue for further rp. Now you're better than them, but you're benevolent. Empathetic, even if it's a farce. They'll come back for more, and there's actual emotion in the exchange instead of the hard mechanical transfer of flash before running to the next hustle.

Again, it isn't the bragging that's the issue in my opinion, it's the way it's done. We're writing stories here, so start writing.

Both in terms of people's OOC happiness and in terms of the ease of tinkering with the economy, it is probably wiser to make corpies richer and corpie luxuries more expensive than to make Mixers poorer.

I also think that may cause corpies to hire Mixers to do shady shit more often -- because the 'wealthy' Mixers tend to have more money than the corpies, it's sort of hard for the corpies to have the spare chy to spend on Mr. Johnsoning Mixers.

The idea of splitting groceries into two tiers is a great idea, for instance, but instead of actively limiting mixer kitchenettes you could just increase the cost of groceries on Gold when you increase corpie income, and then create a new cheap grocery store on Red. 40,000 chy to be able to get steak in your kitchenette doesn't even seem that crazy to me.

Paying corporate players dramatically more because you don't want mixers to buy steak is some backwards pageantry.

Simply restricting the topside grocer to corporate buyers makes a lot more sense, and doesn't completely break the IC plot economy in the process.

@Holychrome I completely agree, I think that's well said.

As for increasing corporate earnings, as far as balance goes I wonder if following a corporate town model, like the old mining towns, works better. Make it so players get massive corporate discounts on the items deemed topside necessities. This could be expanded into rewards like 1 year of good work or a promotion resulting in an engraved Rolex. This could grant incentive to really work hard for that promotion so you can have your dinky employee if the month plaque.

"Both in terms of people's OOC happiness and in terms of the ease of tinkering with the economy, it is probably wiser to make corpies richer and corpie luxuries more expensive than to make Mixers poorer.

I also think that may cause corpies to hire Mixers to do shady shit more often -- because the 'wealthy' Mixers tend to have more money than the corpies, it's sort of hard for the corpies to have the spare chy to spend on Mr. Johnsoning Mixers."

There are lots of ways for corpies to play Mr. Johnson and have the resources to back it. GMs are -very- supportive of people pushing plot.

As I said before, I don't see raising corpie pay solving things, since there are already corpies who (arguably, in the case of not having RP) benefit by keeping their heads down, not spending anything, and stashing a majority of their paycheck week after week.

Great points in here but I really don't feel that this issue is about money. You will find people ignoring the theme in the mix regardless of their financial status. It is a mindset and relates to the type of experience they are hoping to RP (which often times has nothing to do with sindome) rather than the chyen they make and the items they are able to purchase. The issue is more complex than tweaking the economy.
The disparity between Mixers and Corpies needs to be widened. The problem is that the divide is so far from reality it requires a lot of RP to overcome. Of course we want Mixers to have access to chrome and weapons, but these should be street grade gears. Second hand cyberware and used guns with serials scratched off, not shiny new chrome and SOTA weapons. The route to top end gear in the mix should always involve interacting with a Corpie. Corpies supplying gangers with gear is an age old cyberpunk theme, and one that adds much needed tense crossovers between topside and the mix.

I do not think it is fair to expect players to pretend they can only afford rat when they are sitting on 100k. Now, how they get real steak should be the problem. Topside restaurants should not bat an eye from kicking mixers out, perhaps a lot more topside services should be unavailable to Red residents.

Yes, we're absolutely writing stories and they should 'feel right' -- agree!

But I 1000% agree with 0x1 here, it's ridiculous and the onus is not on the players for, say, a piece of rat on a stick cooked over a trash fire in a dangerous park sold by a cannibal to be comparable in cost as...like....whatever, a nice salad wrap made with fresh ingredients. If the vision of the game needs wants to 'feel' like those things are different, it should make it so, via BOTH theme (description of things, how it tastes when you eat it, how it smells, etc.) and mechanics (how much it costs, how available it is). There seems to always be a knee-jerk reaction by some that new or tweaked mechanics are never the answer, but....it's a game. They very often are. You can't both raise issues and not be open to fundamental tweaks to what's under the hood.

This is why I also like the 'mixette' idea -- mix-ify the offerings and how it works. You can't be mad at mixers for having the same stuff in their kitchen when it's easy and affordable to stock the same groceries as corpies, and no, it's actually not IC'ly themely to IC'ly 'handle it' if they're enjoying those same food and drink items because....why would it be? This feels so silly. It's perfectly fine to go to a mix bar that serves fancy Turkish coffee, but having a latte or kona coffee from the grocery in your kitchen is somehow OMG FANCY CORPIE DRINK BEAT THEM UP? How is that breaking theme? It's not. That just feels like 2020 subjective bleed.

The Mix is a slum, absolutely. And I think everyone has kind of their own vision and view of it, to an extent. Something that is beautiful about this game is that we all get to bring a bit of our own imagination to things. There are room descriptions and a lot of them in the Mix are -awful-, but the beauty of the Mix to me has always been how multifaceted it is, it's the ultimate melting pot (or 'gorgeous mosaic', which has always been the better metaphor). It's NOT simply a total hellscape of pure carnage death and starvation and misery. If it were everyone would just be insane and booth the instant they walked in the gate. Let's have a little more imagination, please.

There are people eeking out not just survival, but LIVES there. Street food vendors, tailors, artists, musicians -- someone here mentioned that it's fine for mixers to show off having money via expensive armor that most corpsec don't get to have but they can't have lattes or steak (lolol?) because it's for 'survival', but not everyone is a combat character, those things don't mean survival for everyone. Some are also using their chy on things that bring them comfort to 'survive'.

I think it's dangerous, at times, to police what exactly are 'corpie things' or 'mixer things' beyond the very obvious.

None of this is to say there isn't a very important concept of theme, and divide, that should be respect, and that immersion isn't broken when it's RP'ed against in silly ways -- I 100% agree with Vera in theory and get annoyed when that happens, I just don't think the core of what was raised does that.

I have a few random thoughts on this topic. All of them are my personal opinion only.

People do not have a unified view of the mix. I see things pretty close to what Vera described. Rough. Poor. Desperate. Things you can't ignore even if you are doing better than 99.99% of the population. Living in a slum is living in a slum. I would love it if people embraced it more but I also get that some have no idea what that kind of environment is like or just have very different opinions of how to RP it and visualize it.

People keep talking about Corpie wealth in terms of personal wealth and bank account balances. They often ignore that Corpies who care to be proactive have access to vast funds to drive RP and conflict and that when doing this there is greater opportunity to increase your personal wealth.

The game's culture has changed along the way to where a lot of players seem to think that you can and should only ever operate with the best of all the gear. That it's a joke if you don't. I'd personally like to see more people operating with gear that ranges the spectrum. I'd be fine if the mixer incomes were slashed and access to top of the like gear was made harder for anyone but corpies.

Mechanic solutions are great and I'd be a fan of some of the ideas thrown out. But I, as a player, prefer not to wait for staff to have time and interest to code and build things to reinforce there. I'm happy to make suggestions for changes but I'd rather not wait for them. Instead I'd rather try and push theme with my RP and I encourage others to do the same.

I think threads like this can be healthy and helpful. I like hearing what other players think on a topic. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of theme and the game in general but I am regularly running into ideas that make me think and help my vision evolve. As long as people are just presenting their opinions and sharing thoughts it's good. It's when people take personal offense, make personal attacks or treat it like something they have to win that things get bad.

A personal peeve of mine about Mixer wealth is tailored clothing -- either you are in immy threads or you are wearing tailored stuff. I really wish more Mixer PCs were wearing down-market brands or hand-me-down corpie threads. When I've played tailors, I've tried to produce those things, but I wonder if there's some sort of tailor-play incentive that could help that.
@Jameson and Grey0

This thread has made me remember that people predominately lean towards hard or soft science as a rule. Left or right brain.

For the hard science minded player, mechanics are where they look for the answer. Implemented coded restrictions. Introduce Mixer food alternatives. Increase corporate wages.

For the soft science minded player like myself (as evident by I can't remember which is left or right brain...), cultural dissemination of theme is the answer. Promote themely RP. Enforce it through puppets. RP disdain and encouragement ICly.

For some players, they're resting on a layer of RP with mechanics beneath it. For others, they're looking at the world through a lens of code and numbers. Neither is really wrong, as it's a blend of the two.

There are valid points for restrictions and the like, I just ask that players also remember it is possible in code to find the biggest scariest NPC around, emote poking them for an hour, and if a GM doesn't notice, get away scot free. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should though. I think this also brings up a good point that as a community, we more readily react to corpies acting outside their culture than Mixers do. Someone showing up to work at Viriisoma in DuWear would get assblasted immediately and their superior would be in their chip. While a parallel faux pas like this may not have immediate oversight.

A personal peeve of mine about Mixer wealth is tailored clothing -- either you are in immy threads or you are wearing tailored stuff. I really wish more Mixer PCs were wearing down-market brands or hand-me-down corpie threads.

This is a consequence of Artistry being really the only social skill, so the bulk of social RP players end up with it. So artistry-specced characters are common, and so the prices go down since there's always someone else to churn out lesser work for lesser cost.

Promote themely RP. Enforce it through puppets. RP disdain and encouragement ICly.

Not to put too fine a point on it HolyChrome, but if your vision of the theme is not supported by the mechanical reality, it's your vision that is wrong.

No amount of role play encouragement is going to make people pretend brass knuckles cost a few hundred chy and steak a few thousand, because it's not what is actually happening. Either the IC mechanics have to be adapted if the theme is supposed to be that mixers have no access to luxuries, or the vision some players have of the theme needs to change.

"Not to put too fine a point on it HolyChrome, but if your vision of the theme is not supported by the mechanical reality, it's your vision that is wrong."

Well then I'm sorry I'm not expecting Johnny to code a 1:1 realistic simulation of a near-future dystopian cyberpunk city. (And sorry I don't have faith in you, Johnny)

@Holychrome

Not to sidetrack, but the left/right brain thing has been widely disregarded for years by modern neuroscience, people don't actually separate out that way, it's a myth that just gets perpetuated.

I don't think the big scary NPC thing quite holds, though I do understand exactly what you're saying and trying to illustrate. That's just someone playing the game extremely poorly in a way that's akin to outright abuse -- say, they do that then go brag, 'I was calling King Sinn a giant pussy and he did nothin'!' Sort of like doing crime on Green without xhelping, it's something that should almost be against the rules. What Vera was raising a point against isn't anything nearly that egregious, it's much more grey-area, like my point about it apparently being perfectly fine to get X fancy drink in a mix bar on offer and that's themely for no apparent justification, but having Y fancy drink apparently breaks immersion -- that just doesn't parse for me?

@Jameson

I think people will always have a bias on how they interpret things, but I guess that's hard vs soft science again... Dwohoho.

But yes, I think the solution lies in a blend of code and culture, but we're all here agreeing it's a problem that needs a solution. One asks staff to code things, while the other asks the community to self-police. I'm just asking for the latter. Not necessarily exactly -how- people should act... but to consider.

Well then I'm sorry I'm not expecting Johnny to code a 1:1 realistic simulation of a near-future dystopian cyberpunk city. (And sorry I don't have faith in you, Johnny)

It's not about simulation, it's about having a baseline for what reality is. If one player says 'X is the theme' and another player says 'No, Y is the theme', who is correct? As Jameson says, everyone has their own vision of the game and the City.

However where the claim of a subjective theme runs contrary to the actual mechanic reality of what is possible and what is happening, it would be difficult to claim that theme is the correct one. As I mentioned, the prices of food have actually gone down in the last year, so it is not as if this is simply a forever-untouched element of the game.

If the Mix is meant to be a resource-scarce post-apocalyptic wasteland (which is contrary to how I view it, as I am sure it is to many other players) this must be mechanically true because it is otherwise simply just subjective interpretation of one player over another.

@HC

I think that's fair, and I think a blend is 100% the only solution that will ever work. The mechanics are what set the tone -- the boundaries of what new players experience as they explore the game, as well as what all players invariably push against now and then, just human nature.

The culture is definitely what FEELS more important, but I don't think anyone wants to have to implement 'policing' into their RP, it feels clunky and just feels bad, so the less anyone has to do the better. But the divide is important far beyond driving conflict, it's vital for -culture-, and I agree everyone should try to do whatever things they can, big and small, to try and bring the distinct 'differentness' of above/below alive in their RP, it just makes the game / RP richer for everyone.

Not to like, talk about the massive elephant in the room here but uh..

There's a very good mechanical reason why a mixer wants to eat steak tartar and wash it down with some kombucha versus gobbling down Tony's pizza.

Until that gets addressed, I'm going to continue to treat it like it's a life or death decision making process, because it quite literally is.

This seems like something to deal with ICly.

If people eating filet and drinking lattes in the Mix are bragging about it then they are making themselves targets. Rob them.

If bartenders and garbage collectors are sitting on six figures worth of chyen, rob them.

I'm only able to read this thread off and on while at work, but I liked mindkontrol's idea. The idea of topside restaurants, bars, and stores being more exclusive to Corporate Citizens seems like a good possibility. The same with the idea of having the best of the best only being available through channels that encourage shady dealings and the like. If others said something similar, apologies for not crediting. Also, I'm definitely not an expert on this, so am ignorant to a lot of factors.
'True' topside resturants and other locations are generally off-limits to mixers. They tend to be run off quickly, if not immediately in those locations.

Gold's a trickier situation, as it's supposed to be where the classes mix in the most accessible ways. There was recently changes made to the game to allow businesses with NPC clerks to discriminate against people based on their dress and appearance.

That'd be one prime avenue to make sure the filthy tide of mixers stays down in the slums where they belong.

Except lots of mixer look fab, I think this thing can be auto-corrected ICly like most stuff but not as fast as we might like.
A personal peeve of mine about Mixer wealth is tailored clothing -- either you are in immy threads or you are wearing tailored stuff. I really wish more Mixer PCs were wearing down-market brands or hand-me-down corpie threads. When I've played tailors, I've tried to produce those things, but I wonder if there's some sort of tailor-play incentive that could help that.

This is frustrating to me as well, or at least unthemely for most[/] Mixers. I know there are at least a few Mix tailors (or even characters that don't advertise as tailors but use artistry) that do a great job of working on this ICly, by making ratty threads they "thrifted" out of the bottom of bargain bins, or are repurposed hand-me-downs, or etc. etc. I really appreciate this track because... Well, how many people on the street wear custom-tailored clothing in the present day? In the grim cyberpunk future, I (personally) feel like practically everything [/] should have brand logos slapped on it -- hypercapitalism and all that.

All that's to say, I hope more Mix tailors and artistry players lean into this trend -- you can have awesome, themely clothes that are unique and custom to your character while still looking like you fit into the Mix.

Bah, stupid phone screwing up my italic tags. Apologies.
Yeah, I've been trying to think of an @idea that would be easy to implement that would encourage more 'recycled' fashion. Maybe just some policy changes to tailor-play combined with some cost edits for materials.
Just @holdback to make shittier clothes :P
You don't need to act like an haute couture fashion desginer just because you made three t-shirts. You can act like you bought the stuff at some offscreen "somewhere" or that it's something you salvaged. There are also PLENTY of places to actually get secondhand clothes in the Mix.

I believe I recall Slither saying Du-Wear started out as tailored clothing that a character was claiming to get from "some guy he knows" until it blew up enough that they actually had to go make that NPC.

Values on tailored items are wonky but nobody really sees those or cares. Just get shot like twice and your 40,000c jeans will look as shabby as everything else.