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Startup Stats

Alright, I know the overwhelming culture of FOIC, but this is literally something anyone could find out at a glance 10 minutes after their character is made, and its extremely meta. At character gen, STR is far and away the best stat to upgrade, because it gives the same up-tick every other stat gets, but STR is worth 2 UE base in-game. If your character plans on investing for literally anything into strength at any point, they are crippling themselves in the long run investing their points into anything but max strength, no? Also, why does my character have to basically be stephen hawking just to start the game as billingual? Its a ridiculous investment just to start speaking a second language.

This is objectively false.

Whatever base str you get will pale in comparison to your stats later in the game anyways.

Objectively? So it doesn't take a much lower investment of my character generating points to max out strength, compared to the other stats that literally take all but 1 point?

Even if STR was 1 point to raise at a time, you wouldn't come anywhere near 'maxing' it in char gen. The stat system is okay, focus on the RP and exploration part of the game and you will be far more successful and have more fun, trust me.

Also, keep in mind that the amount of UE you get to spend in char gen is minuscule when compared to the total UE you will earn. It's a long road ahead.

If you read help stats, you will notice the strength lacks 2 substats like every other stat. There are far better choices/exploits in CG than this.

"Objectively? So it doesn't take a much lower investment of my character generating points to max out strength, compared to the other stats that literally take all but 1 point?"

Stats have sub stats, strength and luck have only 1 sub stat, which is why they cost 2 ue outside of chargen.

When you raise a stat in chargen, it raises all the sub stats. So, your MUS goes up by 1 when you raise strength. And you OUTLOOK and AWARENESS go up by 1 when you raise PCP in chargen.

When you raise a stat outside chargen you are raising only 1 of the sub stats (it's random). That's why STR and LCK start out at 2.0ue.

So yes. It is objectively false.

As for languages, they are deliberately difficult to learn. Just like they are in real life. Sure, some folks grow up bilingual and learning a second language is built into their life from the get go. However, it takes a significant amount of time to learn one in real life, and also in the game. Why should someone who writes a history before they started playing get the advantage of an additional language that someone who didn't think to write that into their history, doesn't get? It's a game, games require balancing. Which we've done over the past 20 years, and continue to do now.

Speaking personally, the aggressive tone of your post is not appreciated and not productive.

As an aside, this is the ideas section of the BGBB. This is where you post ideas. You've only made statements. I think you may have posted this in the wrong section. Did you mean to post this in Game Problems & Complaints?

I'm not sure where you're getting the aggressive tone from. I noted a problem based on the information given to me in the help files and character generation. I'm pretty sure the idea to improve upon or open discussion about the system is implicit. If nothing else, I think I'd suggest increasing transparency, but more importantly, having a bilingual option as a simple one-cost investment of points that doesn't make me have to be a genius just to represent a character from an area that speaks another language. Why even tie that to intelligence? Being fluent in a language isn't a matter of scholarship, its one of exposure and repetition.

Please for the love of Anor stub this thread.

Anyway;

Languages are based off intelligence because irl it is easier for someone who is smarter to learn a language faster than it is for someone who is a little slow. I am bilingual, I studied French for several years, and have a reasonably academic knowledge in it. But (not to toot my own horn) I'm also reasonably smart, and I did pick it up faster than some of the other students in my class at the time, especially those who were a little slower at grasping things than I was.

There's a reason stats aren't transparent, that's intentional. I'm sure this was mentioned in the Xhelp channel a couple of weeks back, and it was confirmed they are intentionally vague. In my experience as a player of 2 years, although your stats matter, they also don't matter. What matters most if the RP you generate.

Finally, for this; No character coming out of char-gen should have high stats at all. Nor skills for that matter. Again, this is intentional from what I've seen in other BGBB posts, because we don't want super-tank immies/new players going around and treating Sindome like a Hack n Slash, which could have damaging repercussions. Staff would have to waste time cleaning up the mess made by that so immies are generally weak, and usually get bitch slapped for trying this shit. How do I know? I tried it on my first ever character, he lasted an hour.

I apologize if this comes off as lightly aggressive, I've a bit of a migraine, but this is pretty much how I see things on this subject. Feel free to correct where I'm wrong, folks, Ryu out.

I'm gonna correct myself quickly, I meant X-Game, not Xhelp. My bad!

Just wanted to make a comment on the bilingual discussion, I'm not 100% on this but I believe you can discuss it with the GMs on Xhelp, and if you can somehow convince them that it would contribute greatly to the game that your character started bilingual they may be willing to accommodate that. I know there have been at least a couple of characters who started without being fluent in English.

So to create a point from all that, if you for some reason believe your character needs some attention in regards to language, talk to the GMs about it. It will be far more productive than complaining on these forums.

It's not exactly bilingual, but more of your character starting out being fluent in a different language and not English. However, as this makes the game harder to play (as many PCs only understand English), I think that only experienced players can request admins for this. Even then, like Stelpher mentioned, you'd have to present a convincible reason.

As far as I recall:

If you want to start bi-lingual (English primary) you can do so without GM assistance. Just need to give your character a high enough INT during character generation. You won't be fluent in both but it would be a good start.

If you want to have another language other than English as your primary (regardless if you aim for that second language or not) you will need to ask the Admins and get their approval and help. Best to do this as early as possible though I am not certain at what stage the staff would need to step in. Probably best to talk it over with them before rolling a new character.

That doesnt work, i have a whole log of me testing being bilingual in chargen, no matter how many times i tried it, i could never assign a second language. if its possible its like 1 in a 100 shot.

Ash,

I get 'aggressive' from the way you came in, as a brand new player, saw something you didn't like / understand / benefit from, didn't research it at all in other threads and then started calling it ridiculous while at the same time exposing what you thought to be a way to abuse the system for your OOC gain.

That is not how bugs are reported. You use xhelp or @bug. You don't post in the ideas section of a forum all players have access to, this requiring a senior admin to discount your false claims about how the game works as quickly as possible.

It's not cool. Don't do it again. And if you think things are ridiculous, please wait a few weeks until you've had some time in game, before posting about it. And if you do post about it please use a more constructive tone, and possibly offer some suggestions instead of just implying that the way you would have developed the game would be better.

Not brand new. Not a seasoned veteran, and my play times have been on and off, but I've had a few months with the game, even if I'm just returning to it. A stats system that is intentionally obfuscated is an inherent disadvantage not just to new players compared to the old, but to the overall conversion of players checking out the game to those who stay. You don't need to be a genius to understand basic game design, and if you think the experiences of a 'brand new player' would be invalid, I'm going to question which of us is being aggressive, and which of us is just being kneejerk defensive. Its nonsensical to require a near total allocation of all your creation points into intelligence just to justify being bilingual, when you could just as easily make it an option while you're allocating skills.

When a player has to, say, ask what stat needs to be upgraded just to increase their accuracy with a gun, and the only response they're offered is 'find out IC' on an issue is completely meta, there is a clear problem in transparency of mechanics in your game. The player doesn't need the GM's Rulebook, but they absolutely need the Player's Handbook. Theres nothing immersive about convoluted, unclear systems, and the near-reflex accusations of power-gaming and 'optimized combat monkies' when it gets brought up speaks to an extreme lack of faith in the playerbase.

Languages:

Languages in Sindome are, to my knowledge, free in terms of UE cost. The act of spending UE on languages is a pacing mechanism. Starting with a high intelligence and getting that second language just gives you a head start. This is not the only way to get a second language. It's just a nice benefit for characters who start the game with a high intelligence.

Giving characters who start with or gain high intelligence an edge when it comes to learning languages (it terms of speed) is just a way of giving that stat value. Is it 100% realistic? Maybe not. But this is a game and it is important that each stat and skill has value and is somewhat balanced and this sometimes means things are not perfectly realistic. It is a matter doing one's best to balance realism and relative value.

Stat/Skill Obfuscation:

Like it or hate it I doubt this will ever change (based sole from what I have read and been told by other players). There are good and bad things about both approaches (transparent vs obfuscated) and though I personally prefer more transparency I respect the decision that has been made and try to focus on the good that comes of it.

The obfuscation of skills/stats encourages you to interact with other characters to get a feel for where you stand and to get advice on how you can improve at X. It means you can never be 100% sure how good or bad you are at something.

Lastly, the stats and skills are only partially obfuscated. "help stats", "help skills" and "roles" all give you a general idea of how to build your character. Also, as there are skillsofts in game, it's not too hard to ask what skill you need for a particular task. Skills names/categories are, to a reasonable extent, IC in Sindome.

@Ash

We'll just have to agree to disagree on who is being aggressive.

I understand that you think that it's completely meta to find a way to ask another character what your character should work on if they want to be a better shot, and we'll have to disagree there too. See, we put these rules in place to train, from the very thought, the way of thinking about the game that we want players to adopt. That is, everything that is not a bug or a question of how you the player perform a task, should be handled ICly.

If you are not into that kind of thing, this is probably not the game for you.

If you don't like the stat/skill system that we've developed over two decades, and your 'feedback' is to insult it instead of engaging in reasonable discourse about it, this probably isn't the game for you.

If you are unwilling to go read the other hundreds of posts on this board to get a clear idea of what the game is about before making your posts, this again, may not be the game for you.

Just as an example of other posts where the topic of stats is discussed at length... all easy to find by typing 'stats' into the search bar at the top of the page...

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/more-stats-skills-info-138/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/open-discussion/anything-really/review-stats-752/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/stat-adjective-pairs-1010/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/-stats-29/[url]

[url]http://www.sindome.org/about/experience/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/asking-for-help--creating-a-character.-205/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/stat-recalibration.-10/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/appearance-vs-charisma-1048/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/open-discussion/anything-really/some-tips-for-everyone-205/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/skills-and-ue-352/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/game-problems/adjectives-211/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/ideas/better--spending-ue-into-skill--prompt-1238/

https://www.sindome.org/bgbb/game-discussion/new-game-features/maximum-ue-n-next-character-bonus-154/

And here is a search which will give dozens of results on past conversations about languages (just type languages into the search box):

https://www.sindome.org/search/?q=languages

So, with all these topics and all these discussions having been had-- I'm sure everyone reading this can understand why yet another topic, restating things that have been previously discussed over many years, in public-- discussions that are available to everyone on this forum, especially one riddled with insults, is simply unwelcome.

Most if not all of what you said Ash, has been said before, in numerous different ways, and I would ask that you spend some time familiarizing yourself with those topics, get up to speed with where the conversation is now, and then pick an appropriate topic that already exists, and engage in good natured debate there.

I promise though, if your argument involves insulting and demeaning the hard work that volunteers have put in to develop this game for free, over two decades, any valid points you might have, will fall on deaf ears. You should know better.

-- Slither

For the record it's disingenuous to say a player must ask what stat is needed to improve accuracy in combat (example question or not). The http://www.sindome.org/archetypes/ gives you a general outline for statistics for your preferred role (and with it the listed weapons) and common sense can take you 95% of the way with some IC questions over specific weapons in-game which may need a little extra in a different statistic.

Those IC questions lead to roleplay. Needing to reach out to learn from others in no way diminishes a person's experience.

Knowing multiple languages offers a great advantage and requires appropriate time investment, especially considering languages don't count against the cap which has been discussed. Not easily being bilingual at startup isn't some great hindrance and provides you with a goal moving forward.